Stigma

[roamer]

I was going to post this in the current thread of the same title but in the end decded, with respect, thats something we have debated many times and I just wanted to present a different angle to it and see how others would deal with it, or God knows, I can't be unique, have dealt with it. Looking for some input here.

Imagine this situation.

Like many of you, I have a Thai wife and not from the bar scene, I've lived with the snide looks for so long its really water off a ducks back now.

However I also have a stepdaughter who is now nearly 14 who has lived most of her life in the UK and can easily pass for 18 in LOS. Amongst most Thai's not really a problem, her dress and her manner instantly mark her out as not a local. However with farangs, especially backpackers who've had a few braids put in their hair, bought a pair of fisherman pants and therefore consider themselves experts in Thailand its a very different proposition. On our last trip I noticed how in certain situations she was emphasising "Dad" loudly when we were around certain farangs.

The more I think of it, the planned upcoming stay around the KSR area (convenient to meet up with friends visiting LOS for a few days) may not be a good idea. Even those of you who don't have kids can imagine how pissed off you could get in certain scenarios, and lets face it, as she grows up it won't get any better, just what do you do ?

If you get upset when people are thinking your wife is a hooker....if she gets upset (even if she doesn't show it) how do you think you feel when its your daughter they think is the hooker? I used the term "stepdaughter" earlier only to emphasise obvious racial differences, she is 100% Thai as far as looks are concerned, in all other aspects we are father and daughter. And we are very close, the simple fact we are in LOS wom't stop her linking arms with me when we walk down the road.

Its commendable that she can adopt a "screw you " attitude and not walk 10 metres behind me, and God only knows, as a Karate black belt since 12 she could help me out if it got difficult ! ( Joke, thats precisely the situation I seek to avoid) but can you see the difference when the ill informed comments are being passed about your daughter and not your gf or wife ?

Anyone out there with the same situation ? Even if not I know there are some wise heads out there who might be able to offer some words of wisdom, hopefully.......

Edited July 2, 2008 by roamer

[bkkjames]

I was going to post this in the current thread of the same title but in the end decded, with respect, thats something we have debated many times and I just wanted to present a different angle to it and see how others would deal with it, or God knows, I can't be unique, have dealt with it. Looking for some input here.

Imagine this situation.

Like many of you, I have a Thai wife and not from the bar scene, I've lived with the snide looks for so long its really water off a ducks back now.

However I also have a stepdaughter who is now nearly 14 who has lived most of her life in the UK and can easily pass for 18 in LOS. Amongst most Thai's not really a problem, her dress and her manner instantly mark her out as not a local. However with farangs, especially backpackers who've had a few braids put in their hair, bought a pair of fisherman pants and therefore consider themselves experts in Thailand its a very different proposition. On our last trip I noticed how in certain situations she was emphasising "Dad" loudly when we were around certain farangs.

The more I think of it, the planned upcoming stay around the KSR area (convenient to meet up with friends visiting LOS for a few days) may not be a good idea. Even those of you who don't have kids can imagine how pissed off you could get in certain scenarios, and lets face it, as she grows up it won't get any better, just what do you do ?

If you get upset when people are thinking your wife is a hooker....if she gets upset (even if she doesn't show it) how do you think you feel when its your daughter they think is the hooker? I used the term "stepdaughter" earlier only to emphasise obvious racial differences, she is 100% Thai as far as looks are concerned, in all other aspects we are father and daughter. And we are very close, the simple fact we are in LOS wom't stop her linking arms with me when we walk down the road.

Its commendable that she can adopt a "screw you " attitude and not walk 10 metres behind me, and God only knows, as a Karate black belt since 12 she could help me out if it got difficult ! ( Joke, thats precisely the situation I seek to avoid) but can you see the difference when the ill informed comments are being passed about your daughter and not your gf or wife ?

Anyone out there with the same situation ? Even if not I know there are some wise heads out there who might be able to offer some words of wisdom, hopefully.......

Are these comments limited to the KSR area? If so, trust your instincts and give it a miss. KSR was fun 15 years ago when I was with the lads doing the back packing thing, not a place where I would hang out with my wife and daughter today trying to relive my old fond memories.

[bonobo]

I don't want to sound naive, but are there "working girls" in KSR? I go there once a week or so for a massage and to pick up non-sweetened namsoom kan. There are a ton of young folk there, and at night, I know they tend to the street bars and discos, but I have never noticed any sex-trade activity. Maybe it is there but because of my age (50), I am not a target so I am not aproached.

Having asked that, I can imagine your consternation with your 14-year-old daughter being approached, and it certainly seems as if she is uncomfortable as well.

I have a 40-somethng friend who likes Pattaya but will not go there anymore because she is approached on the street as if she is working, and even after she lets them know she is not a working girl, she still gets harrassed. It is bad enough for someone more mature who can handle herself. But for a young girl, well, that is pretty deplorable.

[distortedlink]

I have an 18 year old daughter with my Thai wife.

My daughter really does look, exactly half and half and when out together it is obvious that we are father and daughter.

The OPs situation must be very difficult. I know when I am out and see some stinking middle aged Farang with a very young looking Thai girl, I feel disgust.

Unfortunately people very often put 2 and 2 together adding to 4, so that must be the case. Never realizing that the obvious is not always the fact.

There are many sordid Farangs that are either visiting or living in Thailand, who like to flaunt the fact that they are taking advantage of naive young girls, some underage. They think this is the third world, so it doesn't matter.

As I have said many times in the past, the actions of some Farangs that continue to break the laws here, keep the sex industries fueled and constantly abuse the system, eventually make things tougher for those of us living here.

There are 2 solutions to the problem. Firstly keep your daughter away from places where these dirty pond life Farangs congregate. Second, educate your daughter about the ways of life.

Edited July 2, 2008 by distortedlink

[bkkjames]

I have an 18 year old daughter with my Thai wife.

My daughter really does look, exactly half and half and when out together it is obvious that we are father and daughter.

The OPs situation must be very difficult. I know when I am out and see some stinking middle aged Farang with a very young looking Thai girl, I feel disgust.

Unfortunately people very often put 2 and 2 together adding to 4, so that must be the case. Never realizing that the obvious is not always the fact.

There are many sordid Farangs that are either visiting or living in Thailand, who like to flaunt the fact that they are taking advantage of naive young girls, some underage. They think this is the third world, so it doesn't matter.

As I have said many times in the past, the actions of some Farangs that continue to break the laws here, keep the sex industries fueled and constantly abuse the system, eventually make things tougher for those of us living here.

There are 2 solutions to the problem. Firstly keep your daughter away from places where these dirty pond life Farangs congregate. Second, educate your daughter about the ways of life.

Exactly, you don't want your daughter hanging out with poor backpacking dirty pond life farangs when she can hang out with those pillars of society that come from the best Thai families in Bangkok, with big money.

[britmaveric]

Well have a few mates from Oz/France - blonde/attractive. They were propositioned and mistaken for Russian freelancers. So not just thai(s).

[JetsetBkk]

... upcoming stay around the KSR area (convenient to meet up with friends visiting LOS for a few days) may not be a good idea. ..

...some words of wisdom, hopefully.......

I think you've answered the question yourself. Stay somewhere else and tell your friends to meet you there. I believe there are some kind of vehicles in Bangkok that will stop and take you places for a small fee if you wave your hand at them. :D

[egg6447]

ive read many comments on tv along the lines of i wouldn,t show my children walking street. a bit similar to your scenario. personally i tend to use negative situations to the education of said young person . ie smoking drinking working girls katoys tatoos whatever. its all enlightning and can be used to your advantage. steer her through life , after all its only a drama if you make it so.

[roamer]

" Are these comments limited to the KSR area? If so, trust your instincts and give it a miss. KSR was fun 15 years ago when I was with the lads doing the back packing thing, not a place where I would hang out with my wife and daughter today trying to relive my old fond memories."

Actually no, my comments were not limited to the KSR area, I've not stayed there since it was in its infancy (different times haa ?) it was simply a possibility as the friends we are meeting will be on more of a limited budget and its convenient for the normal tourist things, we actually have a condo on Sukhumvit but its currently let. In any event the location was not the point of the post. I was more wondering whether anyone else had experience in a similar situation.

At the end of the day its life and we have to roll with it I guess, even if we don't like it .

Thanks for the input.

[boiledegg]

You know them T shirts that say im with stupid and have an arrow pointing, well get her to make one saying "I'm with Dad" the KSR mob will be enlightened that Farang men over the age of 25 with Thai ladies actually do some good for the country.

[roamer]

You know them T shirts that say im with stupid and have an arrow pointing, well get her to make one saying "I'm with Dad" the KSR mob will be enlightened that Farang men over the age of 25 with Thai ladies actually do some good for the country.

Nice one. The wierdest thing is she mentioned exactly this herself a little while ago...great minds think alike eh!!

Might seriously happen

[tomahawk]

This is interesting subject as I have somewhat of a related problem,but not exactly the same.My girlfriend has a 9 year old niece.It is a long story so I won't go into it,but the girl's mother is unable to care for her.She gave custody to my girlfriend.She calls my girlfriend Mommy and me Dad.She is a very good kid and had a very hard and sad life,and never knew her real father.The point is the girl,whi I will call Wan here,likes to hold my hand when we are in public and the problem is with all thye pedophiles and sickos around I feel very self-conscious.Maybe it is my imagination,but it seems like peoplem look at me disapprovingly,and the fact is,despite this when I see farang men with Thai children,I sometimes look at them suspiciously.

I want to make Wan feel loved and am afraid if I don't acknowledge her,she will feel rejected.On the other hand I have this problem.

In 2 years that I have been with my girlfriend,in various parts of Thailand,I never experienced any situation of people making comments when I was with her.My girlfriend says that is only because I am a very big guy and she believes they do say things which I cannot hear.If they do I do not care myself but I do care for my girlfriend as she is Thai and it is important to her what people think.But that is another subject.I just wondered if I am the only guy with a Thai child who feels this way.

[Sabum]

This is interesting subject as I have somewhat of a related problem,but not exactly the same.My girlfriend has a 9 year old niece.It is a long story so I won't go into it,but the girl's mother is unable to care for her.She gave custody to my girlfriend.She calls my girlfriend Mommy and me Dad.She is a very good kid and had a very hard and sad life,and never knew her real father.The point is the girl,whi I will call Wan here,likes to hold my hand when we are in public and the problem is with all thye pedophiles and sickos around I feel very self-conscious.Maybe it is my imagination,but it seems like peoplem look at me disapprovingly,and the fact is,despite this when I see farang men with Thai children,I sometimes look at them suspiciously.

I want to make Wan feel loved and am afraid if I don't acknowledge her,she will feel rejected.On the other hand I have this problem.

In 2 years that I have been with my girlfriend,in various parts of Thailand,I never experienced any situation of people making comments when I was with her.My girlfriend says that is only because I am a very big guy and she believes they do say things which I cannot hear.If they do I do not care myself but I do care for my girlfriend as she is Thai and it is important to her what people think.But that is another subject.I just wondered if I am the only guy with a Thai child who feels this way.

There is NO problem. Do not change the affection and love you would give your ward because you worry about what others might think, dont you dare. Suck it up for the sake of the child.

[AFKAFSinLOS]

I don't think it is limited to Kao San road, but endemic throughout Thailand.

Unfortunately this sort of prejudice is a part of life in Thailand. The main factor being your average Thai's lack of education and development in this area of life. There's a strong correlation in any country between lack of education or social development and prejudice.

Additionally Thais generally stick very much to their own circles, and care little for people outside their own circles. Often they will use people outside their own circles as scapegoats or unifying factors to bring themselves closer together. So if you keep to your own circles and places like Thais do, it isn't usually as much of an issue. But because foreigners are less inclined to stick to the circles where they "belong" they come across these issues more. {In actual fact many would argue foreigners don't belong in any circle, and are outside the system and are just are tolerated, but that's another topic}. Hence the Thai answer in many ways is simply mix only within the people and places and know you. Not really the answer I know for foreigners brought up to treat people as equals.

I can imagine the daughter or any other female relative putting a new spin on it, but essentially it's the same prejudice.

The one thing to bear in mind though is your (step)daughter is part of the future of the country/world. So I think the answer is leading by example. Do what you believe is right, and don't alter your natural good behaviour for bigots and people with prejudice. You also need to teach her how to respond to bigots in the appropriate way. Hence while avoiding such situations is a short term easy answer (a la Thai) and may make things a little more comfortable; the long term answer is that these uneducated bigots need to become more familiar with your norms. This is only going to change in the future. So don't avoid it. Live your life as you think right. Eventually people see what is right for themselves...some just need more time than others... perhaps that's why many Thais need to come back in several lifetimes to get the message.

[AFKAFSinLOS]

I have an 18 year old daughter with my Thai wife.

My daughter really does look, exactly half and half and when out together it is obvious that we are father and daughter.

The OPs situation must be very difficult. I know when I am out and see some stinking middle aged Farang with a very young looking Thai girl, I feel disgust.

Unfortunately people very often put 2 and 2 together adding to 4, so that must be the case. Never realizing that the obvious is not always the fact.

There are many sordid Farangs that are either visiting or living in Thailand, who like to flaunt the fact that they are taking advantage of naive young girls, some underage. They think this is the third world, so it doesn't matter.

As I have said many times in the past, the actions of some Farangs that continue to break the laws here, keep the sex industries fueled and constantly abuse the system, eventually make things tougher for those of us living here.

There are 2 solutions to the problem. Firstly keep your daughter away from places where these dirty pond life Farangs congregate. Second, educate your daughter about the ways of life.

Some of your post is valid...

Unfortunately you then go on to display the same prejudice that you accuse others of. I'm sure in 99% of the case you think you can spot a valid relationship (in your mind) vs a "dodgy one (in your mind). But do you consider:

1) Sometimes you will be wrong. We all are. So sometimes when you show disgust you will do so without cause and to a "legitimate relationsip". Maybe only one in a 1000, but you are then doing your own bit to perpetuate the sterotypes you so dislike. I won't go into what gives anyone the right to judge anyway, and no-one knows the exact basis of any relationship, except perhaps those in it . That's a separate point. Suffice to say you'll be wrong sometimes, so think carefully before showing your own disgust.

2) A third solution is to try and stop practicing prejudices yourself, and having no part in perpetuating stigmas. Much easier said than done if we're all honest... but still worth trying.

[roamer]

This is interesting subject as I have somewhat of a related problem,but not exactly the same.My girlfriend has a 9 year old niece.It is a long story so I won't go into it,but the girl's mother is unable to care for her.She gave custody to my girlfriend.She calls my girlfriend Mommy and me Dad.She is a very good kid and had a very hard and sad life,and never knew her real father.The point is the girl,whi I will call Wan here,likes to hold my hand when we are in public and the problem is with all thye pedophiles and sickos around I feel very self-conscious.Maybe it is my imagination,but it seems like peoplem look at me disapprovingly,and the fact is,despite this when I see farang men with Thai children,I sometimes look at them suspiciously.

I want to make Wan feel loved and am afraid if I don't acknowledge her,she will feel rejected.On the other hand I have this problem.

In 2 years that I have been with my girlfriend,in various parts of Thailand,I never experienced any situation of people making comments when I was with her.My girlfriend says that is only because I am a very big guy and she believes they do say things which I cannot hear.If they do I do not care myself but I do care for my girlfriend as she is Thai and it is important to her what people think.But that is another subject.I just wondered if I am the only guy with a Thai child who feels this way.

When my daughter was the same age as Wan, the looks never really bothered me as she wasn't aware of them, it was only when she became older and more aware that it cocerned me at all. You get disapproving looks but I doubt is pedophilia on the minds of certain Thai's. A lot of Thai men of a certain type look simply because they can't believe why anyone should want to bring up a child so obviously not their own, a lot of these guys don't even bring up their own kids so its beyond their understanding. There are also quite a few Thai's who don't care at all for farangs and therefore don't like the situation. Given the fact you can do nothing about this you just have to learn to ignore it.

As far as feeling self-concious that people will think your a pedophile there was recently a very tragic case here in the UK. A small child, 2 or 3 years old wandered out of her garden and drowned in a nearby pool. She was seen by a guy driving along the road who wondered what she was doing on her own, he thought about stopping to check it out but was concerned that people might think he was a pedophile attempting to abduct the child, he drove on, the child died.

Thats one guy who will forever wish he hadn't been concerned about what other people may have thought.

Do what you feel is right, let people think what they like, you really want to let some sad minded people stop you giving love and support to someone you care about ? That would be the cause of greater regret to both of you.

Good luck.

[steveromagnino]

I don't think it is limited to Kao San road, but endemic throughout Thailand.

Unfortunately this sort of prejudice is a part of life in Thailand. The main factor being your average Thai's lack of education and development in this area of life. There's a strong correlation in any country between lack of education or social development and prejudice.

The one thing to bear in mind though is your (step)daughter is part of the future of the country/world. So I think the answer is leading by example.

Er... most of the staring will be from other foreigners... but anyway.

I can't help but feel that while the stares and looks may not be pleasant, the reality is that there are plenty of farangs coming here are getting stuck into kids, women young enough to be their kids and various other antics.

By behaving responsbly yourself, I would not worry about what the rest of the world thinks too much; if you are a great parent surely that is the best thing you can do for your kids - leading by example ;-)

Of course, it doesn't help that many of the farang fathers in Thailand look like they just stepped out of an unemployment queue/possibly mental hospital/possibly overweight self help group/AA/all 4 - but at the end of the day.....raise your kids well and who cares what people think if they have nothing to do with you.

Interestingly, I was once told that a Stigmata is a potato based pancake looking flat fried delicious snack; and since there is nothing scary about a mun farang, then why should you care what a potato thinks?

And yes, I have also heard that it is called a Fritata or something that sounds like that, but then it would not have as much relivance to the story would it?

[tomahawk]

hanks roamer and everyone.You are right,the child comes first and I can live with the rest.

[steveromagnino]

hanks roamer and everyone.You are right,the child comes first and I can live with the rest.

So there you go. I tell you, no one should care that the mun farangs think! Silly Stigmata.

Apparently you can get a stimata in the eye, I think it means you can't see straight.