Foreigners Performing Volunteer Charity Work In Thailand

[PeaceBlondie]

Thailand has charity work that can be performed by Thais. Generally, Thais are very respectable, kind-hearted, competent to take care of Thailand in the way they think is best for Thailand. Thais are a proud and independent, self-sufficient people who should need no help at all from foreigners. Therefore, the very Law that makes Thailand a civilized country FORBIDS foreigners to do charity work. Unless of course the managers of the Thai Charitable Foundation wish to follow Thai Law and get the required work permits meticulously approved in writing by the proper Thai authorities. However, it appears that usually, the very Thais who solicit farang to help them, are incapable, unwilling, or too lazy to get the right paperwork signed by the right Thai officers.

Therefore, it seems quite logical, fair, reasonable and KIND for farang to obey Thai law and not do volunteer work. If Thais choose to ignore the Hill Tribes people, the Burmese, the HIV-AIDS infected Thais, the Thai widows and Thai orphans in their midst, that is no fault of the farang who are forbidden to lift a finger to help.

I will be bold enough to advise those Thai charities who wish to use the volunteer services of foreigners. Change Thai law. If you cannot or will not, fine. Just do not be surprised if foreigners seem to show more respect for Thai Law than the Thais show.

[eek]

ActuaIIy, how enforced is this "no voIunteering" ruIe, reaIIy? Do authorities spot check? Can a person reaIIy get in troubIe if caught heIping out somewhere?

...but regardIess, i totaIIy agree, something needs to change. I understand maybe they are concerned that foreigners may use "voIunteer" as an excuse for backhand paid work, but backhand paid work happens anyway, so seems the authorities are shooting themseIves in the foot on that one.

[garro]

PB, what changes would you suggest?

A working visa for anybody who want to volunteer?

What type of works should be considered volunteer work?

Are missionaries volunteers?

How would Thailand protect the new legal volunteer work force from abuse?

Edited July 9, 2008 by garro

[PeaceBlondie]

garro, I answer you merely as one foreign guest to another. It is none of our business to ask or answer, however. It is the Thais who must solve their own problems, Thais who must first ask themselves how to change their own laws.

I suggest that Thais find out that nearly every civilized country does not require work permits for charitable work. Yet, I suspect that most Thais care nothing at all about how it is done in Dublin or Dallas or Dubai. Analogies and examples are meaningless, and our advice may well fall on deaf ears. When they ask, we can answer, expecting no sensible response. We do not matter. They can do without us.

eek, the answer to your question is in Thai, not English. Ask a Thai if you wish, but do not expect a logical, legal answer.

Not that any of us is a sinless saint who obeys all laws. But it appears they do not want our help, so let's not give them any.

[Mossfinn]

ActuaIIy, how enforced is this "no voIunteering" ruIe, reaIIy? Do authorities spot check? Can a person reaIIy get in troubIe if caught heIping out somewhere?

I am not sure how they enforce it, but I seem to remember that after the tsunami, they allowed it to continue for some time, before trying to stop it continuing, not sure how successful they were.

Moss

[garro]

garro, I answer you merely as one foreign guest to another. It is none of our business to ask or answer, however. It is the Thais who must solve their own problems, Thais who must first ask themselves how to change their own laws.

I suggest that Thais find out that nearly every civilized country does not require work permits for charitable work. Yet, I suspect that most Thais care nothing at all about how it is done in Dublin or Dallas or Dubai. Analogies and examples are meaningless, and our advice may well fall on deaf ears. When they ask, we can answer, expecting no sensible response. We do not matter. They can do without us.

eek, the answer to your question is in Thai, not English. Ask a Thai if you wish, but do not expect a logical, legal answer.

Not that any of us is a sinless saint who obeys all laws. But it appears they do not want our help, so let's not give them any.

So PB, if a swarm of Dubliners or Dubaians decided that they wanted to go help the poor people of Dallas would there be no requirement for any work permit? I think that somebody should tell the Mexicans if this is the case and they could all go do some volunteer work (wink wink) in Dallas. Are you sure about this?

[Mossfinn]

Double Post

Edited July 9, 2008 by Mossfinn

[BSJ]

Not long after the Tsunami a number of people doing charity work in Phuket where tapped on the shoulder and asked to leave. It wasn't an international incident reported in the major news groups, but it happened.

Maybe someone here knows more?

[garro]

I can't read the mind of the Thai authorities, but I suspect that they do not like to see Thailand as the type of country that relies on foreign volunteers and charity. I suspect that by legalising volunteer work it would be like admitting that they can't take care of their own problems and this is something no country likes to do. Of course this is not the only reason.

I believe that the Thais probably see the current system as ideal, because it allows for volunteers to work quietly behind the scenes (as the laws aren't enforced) but also provides the authorities the option to quickly remove them if they so desire.

Edited July 9, 2008 by garro

[PeaceBlondie]

So PB, if a swarm of Dubliners or Dubaians decided that they wanted to go help the poor people of Dallas would there be no requirement for any work permit? I think that somebody should tell the Mexicans if this is the case and they could all go do some volunteer work (wink wink) in Dallas. Are you sure about this?

garro, I am sure of nothing. But if we were to be so foolish as to be logical, those are two different suppositions. Suppose that the Dubliners or the Ennisites were in Dallas legally, as my tourist future daughter in law was (and let us forget that she overextended her tourist visa and was working illegally - but she was in an Irish pub!). Had a tornado struck, or a gas main exploded, she would have gladly helped (she is a certified social worker and child guardian). Nobody would have thought to require a work permit. I know expats in Mexico who do volunteer work, and they are not required to have work permits. The concept of a work permit for volunteers is inconceivable.

Mai bpen rai to analogies to other countries. All that matters in Thailand is Thais, Thai law, Thai customs. Their law rejects us, and there is no logic in fighting it. Let the Thais fix Thailand by their own charitable efforts. If they want our help, they can figure out how to change Thai laws.

[Pushit]

Too much loss of face, Farangs cannot be seen as out-meriting Thai

[bangkokrick]

Thailand has charity work that can be performed by Thais. Generally, Thais are very respectable, kind-hearted, competent to take care of Thailand in the way they think is best for Thailand. Thais are a proud and independent, self-sufficient people who should need no help at all from foreigners. Therefore, the very Law that makes Thailand a civilized country FORBIDS foreigners to do charity work. Unless of course the managers of the Thai Charitable Foundation wish to follow Thai Law and get the required work permits meticulously approved in writing by the proper Thai authorities. However, it appears that usually, the very Thais who solicit farang to help them, are incapable, unwilling, or too lazy to get the right paperwork signed by the right Thai officers.

Therefore, it seems quite logical, fair, reasonable and KIND for farang to obey Thai law and not do volunteer work. If Thais choose to ignore the Hill Tribes people, the Burmese, the HIV-AIDS infected Thais, the Thai widows and Thai orphans in their midst, that is no fault of the farang who are forbidden to lift a finger to help.

I will be bold enough to advise those Thai charities who wish to use the volunteer services of foreigners. Change Thai law. If you cannot or will not, fine. Just do not be surprised if foreigners seem to show more respect for Thai Law than the Thais show.

I think that you make some good points PB. In my experience most people want to help other people in distress and should be allowed to. It's always the authorities that get in the way. I also heard that thailand refused help from the USA and Europe during the Tsunami which is deplorable.

It was great to see that ealier this year that even China welcomed help from the outside experts following the terrible earthquake. You cannot put a price on life let alone a work permit.

Cheers, Rick

[Kerryd]

Not long after the Tsunami a number of people doing charity work in Phuket where tapped on the shoulder and asked to leave. It wasn't an international incident reported in the major news groups, but it happened.

Maybe someone here knows more?

I think it did make the news. I recall while I was in Kabul that there were stories about how Thailand allowed volunteers for the tsunami for a period, then put the brakes on it (about 3 months later I think). Much of the work being done by then was stuff that could be done by Thai labour, and the stance that the government took was that the volunteers were taking jobs away from Thais.

If the volunteers wanted to stay, they (or their sponsoring agency) would have to apply for work permits.

Of course, most of those volunteers wouldn't have qualified, and the whole affair quietly faded away.

"More than 1,000 foreign volunteers from about 25 countries helping tsunami survivors rebuild shattered lives were outraged yesterday to hear they face legal action by the Labour Ministry unless they have a work permit.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/02Mar2005_news05.php" (link appears to be dead now)

From another source:

Thai Authoritieshttp://' target="_blank"> Efforts to Stop FOREIGNERS from "working" helping ??

PHUKET: Foreign volunteers assisting in tsunami-related charity work are required to hold work permits, regardless of whether they are being paid for their efforts or not.

Sayan Chuaiyjan, head of the Phuket Provincial Employment Service Office [ESO], told the Gazette yesterday that there could be no exceptions and that his office would begin to enforce the regulations soon - possibly in March.

"There can be no exceptions. Work is work, even if it is for charity," he said.

He pointed out that any foreigner caught working with out a work permit is liable to hefty punishment.

"If our officers, police officers or immigration police learn [of foreign volunteers] who don't have work permits, the maximum penalty is three years in jail, a 30,000 baht fine [or both]," he warned. "

I don't think it was headline news around the world, but again, these stories started happening 3 months after the tsunami. Can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure there were other issues going on that would have buried this story in the back of whatever newspaper it appeared in.

[Old Man River]

While I realize this is a completely different type of charity work that you are talking about, to those that don't know, there is a lot of good charity work being done in Thailand by international organizations such as the Lions Club and Rotary.

[A_Traveller]

Tsunami. The position was that the government of the day took the view it did not require assistance {or maybe didn't want the auditing afterwards} and was quick to endeavour to place as much of the relief effort under government control. On the volunteer point, though this was in part created by a surge of, no doubt well meaning individuals, coming to Thailand on 30 day waivers Sayan Chuaiyjan, head of the Phuket Provincial Employment Service Office, stated that there could be no exceptions to the work permit rules and that his office would begin to enforce the regulations soon probably by March.

'There can be no exceptions. Work is work, even if it is for charity,' he said. He urged relief workers to apply for work permits, adding that those working for recognized charitable organizations would find them easy to obtain. 'They can just present a document certified by the charity organization they work for and we will issue them with work permits, then they will be able to work legally,' he said. [Allegedly]

To my personal knowledge some who went to Saun Plu to 'sort things out' were berated by staff there about their overstays, had they been 'working' etc..

Strangely, or maybe not, the vast number of individuals both Thai and foreigner responded to this once in 500 years disaster with courage dignity and humanity. The system did not.

So are these issue enforced? Well in the face of this disaster, Sayan Chuaiyjan's next quote gives the answer 'foreign volunteers found without work permits would be liable for a penalty of three years in jail and/or a 30,000 baht fine. We did not enforce this law too rigidly, because we knew that everyone wanted to help out, but now things are returning to normal, we will have to start taking it more seriously'.

Regards

[Mobi]

Too much loss of face, Farangs cannot be seen as out-meriting Thai

You've hit the nail right on the head.

There are a number of charities run by farangs here in Pattaya and I know for a fact that the Thais resent the farangs doing what they - the Thais - should be doing. They don't want to be made to appear bad by farangs, and, of course 'face' is involved.

They also try to keep their dirty linen in the cupboard and resent the publicising of the destitute families that are dying in the slums, and the countless kids that are put out to beg on the streets or are sold as sex slaves to peadophiles.Remember the Bangkok APEC conference when all the beggars were rounded up and dumped outside Bangkok, because the authorities were ashamed of them?

There is at least one charity I am aware of that the Thais are continually trying to close down, but it is legal, the farangs who run it have work permits and it is supported by the local welfare authorities. But the Thai so-called "Christians" refuse to support it, and actively campaign against it.

Most of the Thais' charitable donations go to the Wats where the monks enrich themselves and their buildings. There is great merit in this for a good Buddhist.

Meanwhile the poor and the most needy are left without succour.

Not a lot different to their nearby neighbours - Burma- where the authorities also refused much aid from foreigners. God knows how many deaths have resulted from this shameful act.

[JimmyTheMook]

I think this is a sad well known fact about our host country.

Thailand like everywhere has it's faults I guess.

[bangkokrick]

Too much loss of face, Farangs cannot be seen as out-meriting Thai

You've hit the nail right on the head.

There are a number of charities run by farangs here in Pattaya and I know for a fact that the Thais resent the farangs doing what they - the Thais - should be doing. They don't want to be made to appear bad by farangs, and, of course 'face' is involved.

They also try to keep their dirty linen in the cupboard and resent the publicising of the destitute families that are dying in the slums, and the countless kids that are put out to beg on the streets or are sold as sex slaves to peadophiles.Remember the Bangkok APEC conference when all the beggars were rounded up and dumped outside Bangkok, because the authorities were ashamed of them?

There is at least one charity I am aware of that the Thais are continually trying to close down, but it is legal, the farangs who run it have work permits and it is supported by the local welfare authorities. But the Thai so-called "Christians" refuse to support it, and actively campaign against it.

Most of the Thais' charitable donations go to the Wats where the monks enrich themselves and their buildings. There is great merit in this for a good Buddhist.

Meanwhile the poor and the most needy are left without succour.

Not a lot different to their nearby neighbours - Burma- where the authorities also refused much aid from foreigners. God knows how many deaths have resulted from this shameful act.

The face thing also exists in China and they are prepared to except western help so i dont think that this argument holds water. I personally think that the reason is more political in both the Thai and Burmese situations.

Very sad.

Cheers, Rick

[GuestHouse]

I'm of two minds on this issue.

On the one hand I believe charity/volunteering to serve a hugely important role in society, benefitting those who receive help, those who give help and wider society. On that basis I believe charity/volunteering ought to be encouraged and indeed charity/volunteering is something that I have enjoyed in the past and hope to enjoy in the future.

As an example of who charity/volunteering can and does have a positive impact take a look at the work done by the Pattaya based charity 'Care4Kids'. It makes a huge contribution to some of the most deserving causes in Thailand while at the same time acting as a vehicle to demonstrate the positive contribution that the Pattaya Expat community can and does make in Thailand.

On the other hand I think 'charity/volunteering' as it exists in Thailand, and particular foreign 'charity/volunteering' does deserve some critical examination.

On the one hand establishing a charity/NGO has undoubtedly become a vehicle to obtain visas in Thailand while on the other hand I think it is wholly correct to examine some of the risks that come with 'Charity/Volunteering' - I am particularly concerned over the access 'Charity/Volunteering' gives 'Volunteers' to some of Thailand's most vulnerable people - in particular children in orphanages and schools.

PB has stated above that 'Thailand should learn the lessons of the west for itself' - OK fine if we are talking about how to develop Thai answers to Thai problems - But not fine when the lesson to be learned is the painful lesson already learned in the west that Charities and Volunteering have been used by people who pose a risk to the physical and emotional well being of children to gain access to children in a framework were the person who poses the risk is seen to have authority - moral or real.

Be absolutely sure that charities and volunteering in Thailand are being used by such people to gain access to children - Put aside too the idea that the offender here is male and posing a physical threat, women working out their 'child related' problems with vulnerable children is also a real risk.

Does this really happen? Well yes it does. Do and internet search and there are a growing number of foreigners setting up Charities/NGOs in Thailand - Look again and there are a growing number of 'for profit' organizations selling the volunteer experience as part of an add on to the holiday experience. So access to children in schools and orphanages being sold as little more than the latest 'Tour'.

As I often respond when I see people asking about 'volunteering at an orphanage for a day or two' - 'Are you allowed to turn up and volunteer at an orphanage in your own country and if not why not?'.

So to answer Garo's question 'What changes would we make'.

The change I would make is to regulate Charities and Volunteering in the same way it is regulated in the west. I'd also like to see police background checks for people who volunteer with children and I'd like to see and end of Volun-Tour Companies selling access to schools and orphanages.

[GuestHouse]

Oh, and I'd also like to see a finite time limit placed on Charity/Volunteer visas, say 2 years, by which time any foreigner establishing a Charity/NGO in Thailand will be required to have trained a Thai citizen to take over the Charity/NGO thereby establishing a Thai Charity/NGO that benefits Thais both as receivers of help and as empowered participants.

[PeaceBlondie]

I am often mistaken, but I doubt this has anything to do with any country outside of Thailand. Thais do not stay awake nights thinking how they compare to any other country. Which is why analogies are pointless. We can analyze Thai law and culture until the buffaloes come home, and it will not matter at all. Nada, soon. This is the way Thai law and culture is, and nothing that farang can say or do will change it. Let the Thais take care of Thais and Burmese and Hill Tribes and Malay-Thais until after they start granting immigrant status to farangs, accomodating Thai culture to farang culture, giving Thai educators courses in farang culture. I actually did that for an hour, with the blessing of a naughty Thai ajarn. The provincial prathom teachers of angrit never figured it out, but it was a hoot to walk in eating and drinking, put my feet up on a chair, and do other normal farang things.

[sriracha john]

Thailand has charity work that can be performed by Thais. Generally, Thais are very respectable, kind-hearted, competent to take care of Thailand in the way they think is best for Thailand. Thais are a proud and independent, self-sufficient people who should need no help at all from foreigners. Therefore, the very Law that makes Thailand a civilized country FORBIDS foreigners to do charity work. Unless of course the managers of the Thai Charitable Foundation wish to follow Thai Law and get the required work permits meticulously approved in writing by the proper Thai authorities. However, it appears that usually, the very Thais who solicit farang to help them, are incapable, unwilling, or too lazy to get the right paperwork signed by the right Thai officers.

Therefore, it seems quite logical, fair, reasonable and KIND for farang to obey Thai law and not do volunteer work. If Thais choose to ignore the Hill Tribes people, the Burmese, the HIV-AIDS infected Thais, the Thai widows and Thai orphans in their midst, that is no fault of the farang who are forbidden to lift a finger to help.

I will be bold enough to advise those Thai charities who wish to use the volunteer services of foreigners. Change Thai law. If you cannot or will not, fine. Just do not be surprised if foreigners seem to show more respect for Thai Law than the Thais show.

Although that's not always the case at various police volunteer recruitment stations located in foreign enclaves around the country.

I do agree with every single one of your other points. Perhaps a boycott of volunteer positions is in order, although that is distasteful in tone and not really desireable because of the detrimental side effects, it might be what is necessary to send a strong enough message that the laws need to be changed and updated to the 21st century.

As for,

However, it appears that usually, the very Thais who solicit farang to help them, are incapable, unwilling, or too lazy to get the right paperwork signed by the right Thai officers.

I would say it's been my experience that the reason is more often the incapable, or more actually unable, to get the right paperwork signed by the right Thai officers. Fully recognizing that other people's experiences might have one of the other causes as well.

[sriracha john]

So PB, if a swarm of Dubliners or Dubaians decided that they wanted to go help the poor people of Dallas would there be no requirement for any work permit? I think that somebody should tell the Mexicans if this is the case and they could all go do some volunteer work (wink wink) in Dallas. Are you sure about this?

garro, I am sure of nothing. But if we were to be so foolish as to be logical, those are two different suppositions. Suppose that the Dubliners or the Ennisites were in Dallas legally, as my tourist future daughter in law was (and let us forget that she overextended her tourist visa and was working illegally - but she was in an Irish pub!). Had a tornado struck, or a gas main exploded, she would have gladly helped (she is a certified social worker and child guardian). Nobody would have thought to require a work permit. I know expats in Mexico who do volunteer work, and they are not required to have work permits. The concept of a work permit for volunteers is inconceivable.

Exactly. Which is precisely why many people are volunteering here who unaware of it as the absurdity of it's implications is beyond reasonable expectations garnered from elsewhere around the world. It's also the reason that some people downplay its significance feeling that it is too ridiculously absurd to be enforced, and yet... it's clearly on the books and subject to enforcement at any time.

Mai bpen rai to analogies to other countries. All that matters in Thailand is Thais, Thai law, Thai customs. Their law rejects us, and there is no logic in fighting it. Let the Thais fix Thailand by their own charitable efforts. If they want our help, they can figure out how to change Thai laws.

I agree. We can't force this country to follow the world "norm"... but at the same time, we shouldn't participate in programs that enable it to continue to be outside the world "norm".

[sriracha john]

Thailand has charity work that can be performed by Thais. Generally, Thais are very respectable, kind-hearted, competent to take care of Thailand in the way they think is best for Thailand. Thais are a proud and independent, self-sufficient people who should need no help at all from foreigners. Therefore, the very Law that makes Thailand a civilized country FORBIDS foreigners to do charity work. Unless of course the managers of the Thai Charitable Foundation wish to follow Thai Law and get the required work permits meticulously approved in writing by the proper Thai authorities. However, it appears that usually, the very Thais who solicit farang to help them, are incapable, unwilling, or too lazy to get the right paperwork signed by the right Thai officers.

Therefore, it seems quite logical, fair, reasonable and KIND for farang to obey Thai law and not do volunteer work. If Thais choose to ignore the Hill Tribes people, the Burmese, the HIV-AIDS infected Thais, the Thai widows and Thai orphans in their midst, that is no fault of the farang who are forbidden to lift a finger to help.

I will be bold enough to advise those Thai charities who wish to use the volunteer services of foreigners. Change Thai law. If you cannot or will not, fine. Just do not be surprised if foreigners seem to show more respect for Thai Law than the Thais show.

I think that you make some good points PB. In my experience most people want to help other people in distress and should be allowed to. It's always the authorities that get in the way. I also heard that thailand refused help from the USA and Europe during the Tsunami which is deplorable.It was great to see that ealier this year that even China welcomed help from the outside experts following the terrible earthquake. You cannot put a price on life let alone a work permit.

Same, Same as the Burmese dictatorial government denying obviously much needed assistance during the very recent cyclone disaster. When it happened, many comparisons were made immediately with the tsunami situation.

[sriracha john]

So to answer Garo's question 'What changes would we make'.

The change I would make is to regulate Charities and Volunteering in the same way it is regulated in the west. I'd also like to see police background checks for people who volunteer with children and I'd like to see and end of Volun-Tour Companies selling access to schools and orphanages.

Especially the police check is easily a reasonable expectation. It would be far easier to implement that than it is to obtain the mountainous paperwork, the labyrinth of government agencies one must endure for the work permit itself, and the associated exorbitant fees are the most discouraging factors to obtaining legal work permits and where the biggest changes in the laws need to be made.

[sriracha john]

Oh, and I'd also like to see a finite time limit placed on Charity/Volunteer visas, say 2 years, by which time any foreigner establishing a Charity/NGO in Thailand will be required to have trained a Thai citizen to take over the Charity/NGO thereby establishing a Thai Charity/NGO that benefits Thais both as receivers of help and as empowered participants.

In an NGO scenario, I agree. In, for example, a volunteer teacher at a government school scenario I would extend it, without limit, for as long as that work was still being done.

[sriracha john]

I am often mistaken, but I doubt this has anything to do with any country outside of Thailand. Thais do not stay awake nights thinking how they compare to any other country. Which is why analogies are pointless. We can analyze Thai law and culture until the buffaloes come home, and it will not matter at all. Nada, soon. This is the way Thai law and culture is, and nothing that farang can say or do will change it. Let the Thais take care of Thais and Burmese and Hill Tribes and Malay-Thais

and Foreign tourists.

[Robski]

Tut, tut PB, this is Thailand and you are a foreigner, you should know better than to get too close to the needy,

you might influence them with your Western ideals and give them ideas above their stations.

If everybody did that there would be Anarchy!

The powers that be must protect the needy from their own potential and don't need do goody foreigners upsetting the status quo.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Robski

[cloudhopper]

This is as much a bureaucratic face/turf issue as anything and not limited to Asia. I flew my plane into Mexico many times with the flying doctors to treat the Tarahumara indigenous group in the Copper Canyon region and we often got static from customs and immigration - on both sides of the border.

Occasionally it was deserved IMO because the road to hel_l is usually paved with "good" intentions.

[NoSpeakIt]

i wonder how many in this thread are actually interested in doing charity work and how many are just upset that they are not allowed to do certain charity work that they have no intentions of doing anyways.