Foreigners Performing Volunteer Charity Work In Thailand

[Galong]

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit;

[/font]

Going on a tour gives a traveler a "benefit" of sort. This is sufficiently vague enough to be interpreted in a myriad of ways.

I've never heard of anyone being arrested for volunteering. Have any of you?

[sriracha john]

We have a new "classic" (same as george's post quoted in Post #85) to be added to any and all future "volunteer" / "work permits" threads... exceptionally well done, mobi...it captures the crux of the biscuit as Zappa would say...

It'll be a quoted post for over the next 40 threads on the subject (which is probably good coverage just until the end of the year)...

Thank you for taking the time to construct it.

Thailand is run by a huge, unwieldy bureaucracy. Each civil service department is a “law unto itself” and the head of each department wields enormous power.

Every department is jealous of its powers and is fiercely protective of their areas of influence. We have seen this time and time again, where one department of the civil service has taken another department to task when they have ‘interfered in their territory’, whether or not the action has been for the public good. The civil service heads tend to be extremely myopic in the operation of their departments, and for the main part, the question of what is right or moral, or what is better for the good of the nation never enters their thinking. The law is the law, and must be obeyed. (Except, of course when some ‘special consideration’ is given in return for turning a blind eye to transgressions. )

I personally doubt that the reasons that farangs are not allowed to undertake charitable work without permits has anything to do with fears of foreign intelligence infiltration, the unsuitability or fitness of the volunteers, or any of the other far fetched reasons espoused in this thread.

It has everything to do with the basic premise operated by the labour department that a farang should not take a job away from a Thai, and should not be allowed to do any job that a Thai is cable of doing. That is the law and is applied without fear or favour in respect of paid or unpaid work. Why should an organisation be allowed to ‘employ’ a farang to do a job for free when there Thais out there who can do it equally well, and get paid for so doing? It’s as simple as that. The labour department doesn’t give two hoots whether someone may suffer as a result of their laws, or that the farang may be giving some benefit to the country, or even saving lives. It just doesn’t enter their thinking. They simply apply the law. Hence the furore that surrounded the labour dept’s decision to try to stop foreigners who were helping with the tsunami relief. The whole world was focussing on the aftermath of a major disaster, but some local tin pot official decided that the law was being broken. On that particular occasion, they were obliged to back down due to worldwide outrage, but we can see the principal at play.

There was a case a year or so back when some farangs had driven their car around the world, raising large sums for charity. When they reached Bangkok they wanted to auction their car for the benefit of local charities. The customs department would have none of it – they insisted that a massive amount of duty be paid on the car, if it was to remain here, even though it would never be used on the roads. The people involved, ended up having the vehicle destroyed rather than pay the duty. There have been other equally “heartless” decisions by customs which have resulted in charities having to destroy imported goods destined for orphans and children’s homes, rather than pay the outrageous customs duties.

But from a Thai point of view, they were simply applying the law.

Edited July 15, 2008 by sriracha john

[Old Man River]

It is, however, illegal without a WP (or a piece of paper from the Min of Lab).

I find it hard to imagine that it is illegal.

Good reasoning. I don't believe prostitution or gambling are illegal either, because loads of people do them ...

Forgive me for not humbling myself in front of you about something you know so little about. At least I am honest when I say I find it hard to believe it is illegal. I don't know for sure if there is special permission that would have occurred long before either of us was born or is based on an old law that has subsequently been changed, but has been grandfathered. Do you know? Checking the current law won't tell you anything. This is a country of comprises, special pemissions etc.

What I do know is that the Royal Family, senior members of the legal society, military and police are actively involved in the organization I and many other ex-pats are involved with. So is it legal or just based on tradition? I don't know, but certainly you don't either.

[Mario2008]

The law is perfectly clear. It doesn't matter if you get money or another benefit or not. If you work, you need a workpermit.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Mario2008

[PeaceBlondie]

The fact that royalty are members of an organization, does not give carte blache to aliens to do work for that organization, as far as I know, I guess. If a ten star general is a member, do not forget to salute him. That does not make your charity work legal, necessarily

I would not hazard my stay in Thailand upon the ever-faint possibility that a grandfather clause exists. My grandson could make me a great-grandfather next year, (so could his sister), but that does not mean the legal concepts of grandfathering or ex post facto legislation will save you from deportation. I cannot even say ex post facto in Thai.

[Old Man River]

The fact that royalty are members of an organization, does not give carte blache to aliens to do work for that organization, as far as I know, I guess. If a ten star general is a member, do not forget to salute him. That does not make your charity work legal, necessarily

I would not hazard my stay in Thailand upon the ever-faint possibility that a grandfather clause exists. My grandson could make me a great-grandfather next year, (so could his sister), but that does not mean the legal concepts of grandfathering or ex post facto legislation will save you from deportation. I cannot even say ex post facto in Thai.

Well, there are thousands of us that will remain at risk as you call it. BTW, get ready now. In 2012 Rotary International will have their global convention in Bangkok. It might be a good time for someone at TV to barge past the police and start ranting and raving about how such service organizations are breaking the law. I know you are too smart for this, but some, well, I would love to see it.

[Valjean]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

Q: There are some NGO organizations that bring volunteers here for short term 2-4 weeks. In this situation is a work permit required? If just a visa what type?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Non-B visa as well.

As to this last one; clearly ignoring this is widespread and the implications for the volunteers are minimal. It makes me realize why the Directors at 2 NGOs we've asked about this haven't and probably won't answer.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

Also the sponsored angle is intersting - and I could imagine complicated. There are all sorts of groups working under the patronage of the Royal Family or other government instutitions.

[sylviex]

curious- i was looking for volunteer work to do in BKK to kill time, and most of what I found you actually have to pay for! so do these places all give work permits? i didn't see mention of them!

Correct, girlx ! ! !

I guess it's like the "girlfriend experience". Gap-year youth of the developed world can have the "volunteer experience" here.

Yet another somewhat hilarious sub plot in this convoluted tale.

To a foreigner, Thailand can sometimes seem like a mirrored labyrinth of infinite doorways and dead ends, in which we cannot either retreat or proceed unless a fee is paid.

[MarkBKK]

It is, however, illegal without a WP (or a piece of paper from the Min of Lab).

I find it hard to imagine that it is illegal.

Good reasoning. I don't believe prostitution or gambling are illegal either, because loads of people do them ...

Forgive me for not humbling myself in front of you about something you know so little about. At least I am honest when I say I find it hard to believe it is illegal. I don't know for sure if there is special permission that would have occurred long before either of us was born or is based on an old law that has subsequently been changed, but has been grandfathered. Do you know? Checking the current law won't tell you anything. This is a country of comprises, special pemissions etc.

What I do know is that the Royal Family, senior members of the legal society, military and police are actively involved in the organization I and many other ex-pats are involved with. So is it legal or just based on tradition? I don't know, but certainly you don't either.

... oh what's the point? You obviously know me better than I know myself, so believe what you like.

(With all your talk of ''grandfathering'' you're not about 45 and a Southie who can still remember legally drinking under 18 are you?)

[sriracha john]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

As someone who took the steps in the right direction, I'd have to disagree. My non-O was entirely acceptable, however I was volunteering for a "governmental agency" (school) and was reassured by every office visited (Labour, Education, Foreign Affairs) that a work permit WAS required.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

My school was absolutely a government school and I was absolutely required to get a work permit.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

see above in red

It would seem that george's post:

There are NO exceptions.

still stands.

[PeaceBlondie]

I believe Mario2008 had to get a work permit to volunteer at a government school.

[Old Man River]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

As someone who took the steps in the right direction, I'd have to disagree. My non-O was entirely acceptable, however I was volunteering for a "governmental agency" (school) and was reassured by every office visited (Labour, Education, Foreign Affairs) that a work permit WAS required.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

My school was absolutely a government school and I was absolutely required to get a work permit.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

see above in red

It would seem that :

There are NO exceptions.

still stands.

In TV land, yes, absolutely. Make sure you have a work permit to do charitable work in Thailand. That is the message. Received loud and clear.

Now back to Thailand, the land of traditions, compromises and permissions.

[cloudhopper]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

Well it would seem from this then that a foreigner with a Non-B visa could undertake, on his own and not under the auspices of any private organization, volunteer work.

[sriracha john]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

As someone who took the steps in the right direction, I'd have to disagree. My non-O was entirely acceptable, however I was volunteering for a "governmental agency" (school) and was reassured by every office visited (Labour, Education, Foreign Affairs) that a work permit WAS required.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

My school was absolutely a government school and I was absolutely required to get a work permit.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

see above in red

It would seem that that george's post:

There are NO exceptions.

still stands.

In TV land, yes, absolutely. Make sure you have a work permit to do charitable work in Thailand. That is the message. Received loud and clear.

Now back to Thailand, the land of traditions, compromises and permissions.

and fines and prisons and deportations and inter-ministry rivalries and knives in the back from no where and and and...

Have at it.

Edited July 15, 2008 by sriracha john

[Old Man River]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

As someone who took the steps in the right direction, I'd have to disagree. My non-O was entirely acceptable, however I was volunteering for a "governmental agency" (school) and was reassured by every office visited (Labour, Education, Foreign Affairs) that a work permit WAS required.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

My school was absolutely a government school and I was absolutely required to get a work permit.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

see above in red

It would seem that that george's post:

There are NO exceptions.

still stands.

In TV land, yes, absolutely. Make sure you have a work permit to do charitable work in Thailand. That is the message. Received loud and clear.

Now back to Thailand, the land of traditions, compromises and permissions.

and fines and prisons and deportations and inter-ministry rivalries and knives in the back from no where and and and...

Have at it.

We do what we wish by choice, don't we? Some live here and never get further than the bars. Others live here and fear nothing. I live here, venture out, but am always looking over my shoulder. Always a personal choice.

[Mario2008]

I'm a volunteer at a governement school and I do need a workpermit. The advise of the big law firm is not suported by the factual situation, nor by the Thai labour law. But I guess some people have trouble reading the labour law, even when it is translated to English, which is cristal clear on this point. There are no exceptions.

[sriracha john]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

As someone who took the steps in the right direction, I'd have to disagree. My non-O was entirely acceptable, however I was volunteering for a "governmental agency" (school) and was reassured by every office visited (Labour, Education, Foreign Affairs) that a work permit WAS required.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

My school was absolutely a government school and I was absolutely required to get a work permit.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

see above in red

It would seem that that george's post:

There are NO exceptions.

still stands.

In TV land, yes, absolutely. Make sure you have a work permit to do charitable work in Thailand. That is the message. Received loud and clear.

Now back to Thailand, the land of traditions, compromises and permissions.

and fines and prisons and deportations and inter-ministry rivalries and knives in the back from no where and and and...

Have at it.

We do what we wish by choice, don't we? Some live here and never get further than the bars. Others live here and fear nothing. I live here, venture out, but am always looking over my shoulder. Always a personal choice.

Absolutely it's about personal choice. I live here, venture out continuously... but choose not to jeopardize my ability to stay here nor to have to constantly be looking over my shoulder. It's topical that george's classic post also points out the similarities between not having work permits and overstay in terms of their ramifications. I suppose that accounts why I also choose not to overstay. But as said, have at it if that's what you choose.

Edited July 15, 2008 by sriracha john

[Old Man River]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

As someone who took the steps in the right direction, I'd have to disagree. My non-O was entirely acceptable, however I was volunteering for a "governmental agency" (school) and was reassured by every office visited (Labour, Education, Foreign Affairs) that a work permit WAS required.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

My school was absolutely a government school and I was absolutely required to get a work permit.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

see above in red

It would seem that that george's post:

There are NO exceptions.

still stands.

In TV land, yes, absolutely. Make sure you have a work permit to do charitable work in Thailand. That is the message. Received loud and clear.

Now back to Thailand, the land of traditions, compromises and permissions.

and fines and prisons and deportations and inter-ministry rivalries and knives in the back from no where and and and...

Have at it.

We do what we wish by choice, don't we? Some live here and never get further than the bars. Others live here and fear nothing. I live here, venture out, but am always looking over my shoulder. Always a personal choice.

Absolutely it's about personal choice. I live here, venture out continuously... but choose not to jeopardize my ability to stay here nor to have to constantly be looking over my shoulder. It's topical that george's classic post also points out the similarities between not having work permits and overstay in terms of their ramifications. I suppose that accounts why I also choose not to overstay. But as said, have at it if that's what you choose.

I don't worry about overstaying. Not an issue for me. I also have a work permit, but just trying to stay legal since I work. I don't worry about being a member of a chamber and also a service organization. Since the American Chamber (largest chamber in Thailand) does charity work, should all members of AmCham be worried? Of course not. My kid goes to an international school and they also do charity work. Do all the kids need work permits as well? Of course not.

You get the point. We have lives here and make our way. The fact is, at the end of the day, I feel safer here than I would in many cities in the US. It is a great place to live, and I like to give back to the community where I live. Probably you do to.

[sriracha john]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

As someone who took the steps in the right direction, I'd have to disagree. My non-O was entirely acceptable, however I was volunteering for a "governmental agency" (school) and was reassured by every office visited (Labour, Education, Foreign Affairs) that a work permit WAS required.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

My school was absolutely a government school and I was absolutely required to get a work permit.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

see above in red

It would seem that that george's post:

There are NO exceptions.

still stands.

In TV land, yes, absolutely. Make sure you have a work permit to do charitable work in Thailand. That is the message. Received loud and clear.

Now back to Thailand, the land of traditions, compromises and permissions.

and fines and prisons and deportations and inter-ministry rivalries and knives in the back from no where and and and...

Have at it.

We do what we wish by choice, don't we? Some live here and never get further than the bars. Others live here and fear nothing. I live here, venture out, but am always looking over my shoulder. Always a personal choice.

Absolutely it's about personal choice. I live here, venture out continuously... but choose not to jeopardize my ability to stay here nor to have to constantly be looking over my shoulder. It's topical that george's classic post also points out the similarities between not having work permits and overstay in terms of their ramifications. I suppose that accounts why I also choose not to overstay. But as said, have at it if that's what you choose.

I don't worry about overstaying. Not an issue for me. I also have a work permit, but just trying to stay legal since I work. I don't worry about being a member of a chamber and also a service organization. Since the American Chamber (largest chamber in Thailand) does charity work, should all members of AmCham be worried? Of course not. My kid goes to an international school and they also do charity work. Do all the kids need work permits as well? Of course not.

You get the point. We have lives here and make our way. The fact is, at the end of the day, I feel safer here than I would in many cities in the US. It is a great place to live, and I like to give back to the community where I live. Probably you do to.

I certainly do... that's why I did it before. I just wish I could do so now legally.

[Old Man River]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

As someone who took the steps in the right direction, I'd have to disagree. My non-O was entirely acceptable, however I was volunteering for a "governmental agency" (school) and was reassured by every office visited (Labour, Education, Foreign Affairs) that a work permit WAS required.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

My school was absolutely a government school and I was absolutely required to get a work permit.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

see above in red

It would seem that that george's post:

There are NO exceptions.

still stands.

In TV land, yes, absolutely. Make sure you have a work permit to do charitable work in Thailand. That is the message. Received loud and clear.

Now back to Thailand, the land of traditions, compromises and permissions.

and fines and prisons and deportations and inter-ministry rivalries and knives in the back from no where and and and...

Have at it.

We do what we wish by choice, don't we? Some live here and never get further than the bars. Others live here and fear nothing. I live here, venture out, but am always looking over my shoulder. Always a personal choice.

Absolutely it's about personal choice. I live here, venture out continuously... but choose not to jeopardize my ability to stay here nor to have to constantly be looking over my shoulder. It's topical that george's classic post also points out the similarities between not having work permits and overstay in terms of their ramifications. I suppose that accounts why I also choose not to overstay. But as said, have at it if that's what you choose.

I don't worry about overstaying. Not an issue for me. I also have a work permit, but just trying to stay legal since I work. I don't worry about being a member of a chamber and also a service organization. Since the American Chamber (largest chamber in Thailand) does charity work, should all members of AmCham be worried? Of course not. My kid goes to an international school and they also do charity work. Do all the kids need work permits as well? Of course not.

You get the point. We have lives here and make our way. The fact is, at the end of the day, I feel safer here than I would in many cities in the US. It is a great place to live, and I like to give back to the community where I live. Probably you do to.

I certainly do... that's why I did it before. I just wish I could do so now legally.

It is still an interesting question and at the end of the day I am glad PB brought this up. I don't know if I will ever get an answer as to how chambers, service organizations, civic clubs, schools etc. get around this, but if I ever do find out, I will PM you. Until then, I am going to follow the Nike slogan, and just do it.

[sriracha john]

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

As someone who took the steps in the right direction, I'd have to disagree. My non-O was entirely acceptable, however I was volunteering for a "governmental agency" (school) and was reassured by every office visited (Labour, Education, Foreign Affairs) that a work permit WAS required.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

My school was absolutely a government school and I was absolutely required to get a work permit.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

see above in red

It would seem that that george's post:

There are NO exceptions.

still stands.

In TV land, yes, absolutely. Make sure you have a work permit to do charitable work in Thailand. That is the message. Received loud and clear.

Now back to Thailand, the land of traditions, compromises and permissions.

and fines and prisons and deportations and inter-ministry rivalries and knives in the back from no where and and and...

Have at it.

We do what we wish by choice, don't we? Some live here and never get further than the bars. Others live here and fear nothing. I live here, venture out, but am always looking over my shoulder. Always a personal choice.

Absolutely it's about personal choice. I live here, venture out continuously... but choose not to jeopardize my ability to stay here nor to have to constantly be looking over my shoulder. It's topical that george's classic post also points out the similarities between not having work permits and overstay in terms of their ramifications. I suppose that accounts why I also choose not to overstay. But as said, have at it if that's what you choose.

I don't worry about overstaying. Not an issue for me. I also have a work permit, but just trying to stay legal since I work. I don't worry about being a member of a chamber and also a service organization. Since the American Chamber (largest chamber in Thailand) does charity work, should all members of AmCham be worried? Of course not. My kid goes to an international school and they also do charity work. Do all the kids need work permits as well? Of course not.

You get the point. We have lives here and make our way. The fact is, at the end of the day, I feel safer here than I would in many cities in the US. It is a great place to live, and I like to give back to the community where I live. Probably you do to.

I certainly do... that's why I did it before. I just wish I could do so now legally.

It is still an interesting question and at the end of the day I am glad PB brought this up. I don't know if I will ever get an answer as to how chambers, service organizations, civic clubs, schools etc. get around this, but if I ever do find out, I will PM you. Until then, I am going to follow the Nike slogan, and just do it.

Fair enough. I should add to my previous post just to be crystal clear: ...that's why I did it before I found out it was illegal.

Until it is made legal, I am going to follow the Benjamin Franklin slogan, An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Valjean]

Here is some information from the Royal Thai Consulate in the US.

Q: I have a questions for requirements for US Citizens in Thailand who want to do volunteer work. What Visa or Work Permit is required of Americans to do volunteer work? And how would this be defined?

A: "A non-immigrant O category visa is issued for volunteer work in Thailand. The organization that you would be volunteering for would send a letter requesting the visa and describing the volunteer work you would be doing. They also need to take financial responsibility for you during your stay."

Q: Am I correct that in this case a Work Permit is not required? What if I am living in Thailand under another type visa such as the retirement visa?

A: "Some authorities will require a work permit on the “O” category visa – it just depends on the scope of your work, who you’re working for, etc. Most people don’t need to get the work permit. The retirement visa is designed for retirement only – if you get caught working (or sometimes volunteering), they can revoke your retirement visa. I don’t think it happens very often unless you were volunteering on a full-time basis that appeared to be work."

This confirms part of my confusion in the beginning. Whether or not a WP is technically required for the short term “holiday volunteer” it’s the practice to just get the O Visa via the consulate and come for your 2-6 weeks. Thousands do this with Thai and International NGOs every year. The risk for these people non-existent in my opinion; especially if they have submitted a letter to the Thai Consulate and been given a visa for that specific work and are working with an established organization.

And I’m not at all surprise that each time I ask the question I get a little different answer. The law firm is going to be like any law firm and give advice that has no risk. That’s their job and their liability if something goes wrong with a client. The Consulate is in the US and the process paperwork for these visas every day. The official upcountry is worried about his job and doesn’t want problems. It’s like the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

I also disagree with the statements that the complexity and difficulty of getting official approval means in fact that the Thai government or people don’t want or want to discourage volunteer work. While I’m sure that’s true in some cases I don’t think that’s the specific intent. It’s just about regulating activities. Don’t take it personal. It just bureaucracy which can drive you crazy and every turn.

If I get more info I’ll post it. It would be a great service to the expat community here to have some sort of resource web site on approved volunteer opportunities, process, contacts, policy, etc. Almost all of this thread is either opinion or anecdotal – and much of it conflicting. It seems it would be some work to get to the bottom of this – not something I have the time for now. I will keep it in the back of my mind and when my CSR Lead returns form a trip to the US I’ll chat with her some more about this.

edited to add quotation marks so you know what they said versus what I am saying

Edited July 15, 2008 by Valjean

[teacup]

And I’m sure volunteering at the Mother Theresa organization would have a slightly different result than volunteering at around the Soi Cowboy, if you get caught doing it without the permit.

[cloudhopper]

Well for a while there I was thinking that it might be legal after all to take out the garbage, cut the grass and wash the truck on my retirement visa. However it looks as though

There are NO exceptions.

after all.

What a great country to be retired in!

[simon43]

From my understanding of Thai law, the rules are:

- You need to get a WP for ALL volunteer work

- Some organisations/NGOs are ignorant of Thai labour law, or believe they are above the law and don't need WPs

- Some government departments do not know Thai law, or are lax about enforcing the rules

- In many cases, doing volunteer work without a WP will not lead to any problems

- In some cases, such illegal work could lead to a fine, imprisonment or deportation, (especially if you upset a Thai national)

- If you are not concerned about the small risk of the point above, then go ahead and volunteer!

- If you do want to be 100% legal, get a WP (but in many cases you will be unable to do this because either your organisation or local labour office are ignorant of the law and will not provide supporting documents or will state that you do not need a WP!)

Final rule - This is Thailand and all the above is liable to change if the day of the week has a letter 'D' in it.....

Simon

[Mario2008]

From the Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

Q: An NGO in Thailand has invited me to go there and work for them as a volunteer for 45 days during my school break. I will not earn any money in Thailand. I am a Belgian college student in Brussels. I understand that I do not need a visa, do I?

A: Although you will work as a volunteer, you do need a Non-Immigrant visa as well as the Work Permit. The NGO must be legally registered with the Thai authority, and that you need a recommendation letter from the NGO for your visa application and the Work Permit.

Volunteer work is illegal without a workpermit, even for a short time. Schools, organisation etc. are not exempt, they just do it illegaly. That the government doesn't make a great fuss if you don't have a workpermit is something entirely different. In Thailand you should wear a helmet when you ride a motorcycle. Still, many students come to school without a helmet and the nice policeman in front of the school lets them. Except when there is a campaign against driving without a helmet.

That nobody ever asks to see my workpermit doesn't mean I don't need one. People recognize that volunteer work is a good thing, but not having one makes you vulnerable. Doing volunteering for a NGO that is involved in protecting the enviorement is a noble cause. But what it that NGO makes problems for a mining company? How save are you than without a workpermit?

As a teacher I had to report the activities of another teacher at the school to the authorities. What if I wouldn't have had a WP? I would have had an enemy who could have easily had me arrested and deported. The same if you get trouble with your neighbours.

That is the risk you take, or not.

Edited July 16, 2008 by Mario2008

[PeaceBlondie]

Special thanks to Valjean for his continuing research and input. I would only point out that consulates and the embassies are in the wrong ministry. Why do we not get an official ruling from the Ministry of LABOUR, after all? Or, do we already have a law enacted by royal decree that already says you have to have a WP, and we wish to ask to get a non-binding opinion from a more convenient source?

I still fear that no good deed will go unpunished in this wacky world.

[sriracha john]

Special thanks to Valjean for his continuing research and input. I would only point out that consulates and the embassies are in the wrong ministry. Why do we not get an official ruling from the Ministry of LABOUR, after all? Or, do we already have a law enacted by royal decree that already says you have to have a WP, and we wish to ask to get a non-binding opinion from a more convenient source?

I still fear that no good deed will go unpunished in this wacky world.

Absolutely surreal.

I too extend an appreciation to Valjean's efforts, but as PB points out, he's barking up the wrong tree. As mobi's now classic post points out, the only tree that really matters is the Labor/Labour tree.

There's no shortage of misinformation available at American consulates (eg. "a double-entry tourist visa will be cancelled if you extend it in-country following the first entry"). If they can't even get their own Foreign Affairs/Immigration matters correct, how knowledgeable and accurate are their interpretations of another Ministry's rules?

But, as typical, they do manage to get "some things" right, eg. the Non-O reference that I referred to in my earlier post that refuted what the law firm had said about the Non-B requirement.

Edited July 16, 2008 by sriracha john

[Mobi]

From my understanding of Thai law, the rules are:

- You need to get a WP for ALL volunteer work

- Some organisations/NGOs are ignorant of Thai labour law, or believe they are above the law and don't need WPs

- Some government departments do not know Thai law, or are lax about enforcing the rules

- In many cases, doing volunteer work without a WP will not lead to any problems

- In some cases, such illegal work could lead to a fine, imprisonment or deportation, (especially if you upset a Thai national)

- If you are not concerned about the small risk of the point above, then go ahead and volunteer!

- If you do want to be 100% legal, get a WP (but in many cases you will be unable to do this because either your organisation or local labour office are ignorant of the law and will not provide supporting documents or will state that you do not need a WP!)

Final rule - This is Thailand and all the above is liable to change if the day of the week has a letter 'D' in it.....

Simon

Excellent summary. Well done.

[A_Traveller]

May I add, re US Royal Thai Consulate responses, though to be fair it is a recent change, that a 'retirement' visa + work permit combination is now possible.

Ultimately, the real problem area is those who retire here or live here full time but do not have a business {or employment} and wish to volunteer. By doing so, even through various societies, there is a risk. If, for example, one performs such an action under the auspices of, to be generic, a recognised social grouping, the risk is probably less, but the law hasn't changed. Further, if one volunteers personally, then there is, by definition less cover, and further, if someone wants to cause the individual problems, it's a vulnerable spot.

By the by, the Royal Foundations etc., literally make a phone call and a suitable letter is issued, no surprise there, others are dependent on their perceived position, and on balance, my suspicion is that many don't bother for those who are in country for a few weeks, or months.

Regards