Wifes Sister Refused Visitors Visa. Need Help!

[BIG SPUDS]

Wifes sister was refused her visitors visa to come to the uk to help with the birth of her sister (my wifes) second baby (due 11th Aug.)

she recieved her refusal letter and reasons why on the 8th of July. We have 28 days to appeal. (aug 5th last day to appeal).

The reasons why she were refused are as follows:-

1."You are a single person of working age with very little ties or property, which might encourage your presence in your country."

We stated in the application that she has family in Thailand. Mom and dad, sister and brother, two children, one 13 and one 20. She has a house of her own, (which we showed paperwork for) a motor bike and a farm to run. What more evidence is needed to show property or ties? What more evidence can we show to prove this apart from photos and letters. (which we included)

2."You failed to provide any evidence of your business or as a farmer, or indeed your purported income."

We stated she is a farmer. She rents the land off the land owner and grows crops. She pays for this in cash and is done by a verbal agreement. We showed bank statements to show her income. How else can we prove this?

3."It is not credible that someone genuinely committed to his/her business to take such a substantial period of abscence from it."

We stated that her visit be for 3 months. If this was seen to be too long, why wasn't she given the opportunity to reduce her length of stay. She wasn't even interviewed, this was all done by post. While she was going to be in the UK her son was going to take care of the farm for her. He works there with her now, infact all the family help, and in busy times she hires more help. This was a holiday visit propbably the last chance she would have to visit her sister as her parents are getting old and will not always be able to take care of her children.

4."I am not satisfied that your teenage child cared for by his grandparents here alone would encourage you to leave the united kingdom following your stay".

We stated she is only coming for a holiday and to help her sister. The applicants husband died in 2007. The applicant would not subject her children to the loss of two parents in such a short period of time. If having two children,property and work, is not a good enough reason to return to Thailand what is? The applicant has no intention of staying or living in the UK longterm. What more can we do to prove she is coming solely for a family visit?

5. "I am not satisfied in these circumstances that you are socially and economically well settled in your country".

How can the applicant be more socially and economically settled? She has a house, family, friends savings. What more is needed to be "well settled" apart from to have more money?

6. Accordingly, i am not satisfied that you intend to leave the UK at the end of your period of the visit, as stated by you".

What more can we do to prove this? we have sent copies of the applicants sisters medical records to show she is pregnant and her due date, and have stated many times the visit is just for a holiday.

7. Insufficent evidence has been provided that sufficent funds are available to support you for 3 months. Your sponsor has provided a bank account that is in a constant state of overdraft and has no evidence of spare funds to accomadate you. I am not satisfied that any leave granted to the UK would not contribute to the burden of the state".

I admit that the bank account does not look good, however, i have been living in my overdraft for the last eight years. Living in an overdraft is something a lot of the people in the UK do.This does not mean that i do not have the funds available to accomodate the applicant. We go out 2-3 days a week and buy what we want and need without a problem. Money is not short for us. The cost to accomodate the applicant is very small. We pay for all the bills any way. One more person will not increase any of these. The only thing extra will be food and with one more mouth to feed this will not break the bank. We also eat at my parents twice a week who the applicant knows and is invited to, so again food is not an issue what so ever. I have three or four credit card with thousands of pounds available to me should we need it. Also the applicant has showed bank statements of her savings of 100,000 baht which she would have to spend should she wish.

Should i show my credit card statements to show i have the money if needed?

The statement that she may need to recourse to public funds. This is a definate impossibilty as she is not eligible to recieve these funds, there is no way she would be able to claim any.

Could someone please help on what more i could possibly do, say or show to prove the genuine intententions of the applicant.

This is a list of what was included in the original application.

Contents.

• VAF 1 Form – Visa Application.
  
• Reason and details for visiting the UK.
  
• Letter From Sponsor
  
• Letter inviting Yupin to the UK from sister.
  
• Bank statements (sponsor)
  
• Wage slips (sponsor)
  
• Yupin’s bank statement
  
• Copies of passports (sponsors)
  
• Sisters status in the UK
  
• Proof of sisters pregnancy
  
• Copy of sponsors wedding certificate
  
• Photos
  
• Phone bills
  
• Yupin’s birth certificate and I.D.
  
• Proof of property
  
• Letter stating where children will stay
  
• letter from Parents
  

What more can i showto support my appeall?

We are sending the AIT2 form back to the visa section of the embassy, with the hope that the desision will be overturned. If it doesnt then it will be sent to a tribunal in the UK. Which could take up to 6 months.

Does any one know if i have to send everything back to the embassy (full application) and can i fax the AIT2 form to the embassy and send the full application if required at a later date.

I hope to send the appeal form back by the middle of next week.

Any help appreciated or ideas!!!

Edited July 11, 2008 by BIG SPUDS

[apetley]

You both seem to have covered the application very well and on the face of things the decision appears very harsh.

My sister in law got a 2 VVs to visit the UK in less than a year with less supporting evidence than you have put together.

Hopefully Scouse will put in an appearance with some of his usual good advice.

Best of luck anyway.

[wasabi]

Given she has a house and children I am surprised it was rejected however on the other side of the coin 3 months is a long time to leave a business and the bank account being anything less than stellar is a big no no. It seems at least you could try to shorten the stay and fix up your bank account.

[Mossfinn]

Hi Big Spuds,

For your appeal you will need to address, as I am sure you know, the points they have made in their refusal, however I would suggest Scouse is your next Port of Call, although Vinny may be able to throw some knowledgeable advice onto the table.

I did start to respond to your points, but found I was being negative, you need positivity and constructive help.

I have followed your posts throughout, I wish you luck.

Moss

Edited July 11, 2008 by Mossfinn

[mariner29]

Would it not be better to just re-apply and alot quicker ?

[Lite Beer]

For what it is worth , I think No.7 . Your bank is the biggest problem . It really does not look good. I very much doubt that available credit on your cards will do anything for your available funds rating.

As for the rest of it, it does look a bit harsh.

[BIG SPUDS]

cmon scouse where are you?

[Khun Jean]

It is disturbing that every Thai is seen as a potential 'stayer'. My own countries embassy has the same instructions.

I have to sign a guarantee that makes sure the one you invite will also leave. And if not would have to pay for all the costs.

Is something like that possible and would it help in the UK?

[britmaveric]

Well living off over drafts is what I see is the red flag here. However every refusal point must be responded to as stated previously. I'm sure Scouse will have some prudent advice.

[BIG SPUDS]

My response to the refusal reasons will be as previously stated as in the opening post, however i am looking for any other info that can help support this. I will offer to include credit card details not that, as another poster has said, will help much, also i have offered to reduce the length of her stay to 2 or even 1 month. Apart from this i cant see i have any other options.

[meandwi]

My wife's sister was denied a V.V. for the birth of our baby as well. We tried everything! Even tried for a student visa. No chance. Their response was that " Not enough evidence of her return" We paid for and showed round trip tickets to the US. Proof of her family's and my wealth. Even showed 1 year college tuition paid for in advance with an acceptance letter from the university to take an english class! Their response during her interview was, 'Her english is perfect. No need for further school."

We are in the process of starting a business for her to show further proof of her to return. Is there such a thing as a shopping visa?

[poshthai]

Sorry to here about your plight,but all Countries are getting tougher now,rightly or wrongly.Also i believe there is a means test in the UK now to show that the person on a 2 years settlement visa are speaking english and fitting into the community correctly.

I am so glad i do not need to do al lthis.

SORRY AGAIN TO HEAR YOU SAD STORY

[mariner29]

You must apply again and inform them in writing that you believe they have overlooked the evidence you supplied, this happens often in alot of cases and the visa is re issued.

Edited July 12, 2008 by mariner29

[Mossfinn]

cmon scouse where are you?

Scouse is away for a short time, he is not ignoring the thread.

My response to the refusal reasons will be as previously stated as in the opening post, however i am looking for any other info that can help support this. I will offer to include credit card details not that, as another poster has said, will help much, also i have offered to reduce the length of her stay to 2 or even 1 month. Apart from this i cant see i have any other options.

You need to counter their points of refusal, including no 7, sufficient monies without recourse to public funds. I know you stated she is not entitled, but you are, they may feel that without said funds, this is what you might recourse to.

You must apply again and inform them in writing that you believe they have overlooked the evidence you supplied, this happens often in alot of cases and the visa is re issued.

But how have they over-looked the funds issue? I know it is a contested view point regarding how much you need to survive in today's market, but credit cards just wont cut the mustard.

Moss

[BIG SPUDS]

I ve been to my parents today (they have met my wifes sister at her house in thailand). They are equally dissapointed at the refusal. I took the drafted response and refusal letter to see what they thought of the situation. My mom said "can she sponsor her as well, as she is family?"

CAN SHE?

She can supply bank statements and wage slips and they have money in the bank. It is not that they are strangers they are family and have met. (have sent photos to prove). Is is possible for more than one person to sponsor an applicant?

I dont mean re applying i just mean with the appeal letter. Stating she is willing to act as another sponsor as well as us, and that the 3 month stay could be shortened if the embassy thought 3 months was too long?

What do you think?

Edited July 12, 2008 by BIG SPUDS

[BIG SPUDS]

i forgot to say, she has since been able to get 2 letters stating she rents the farm, if they are reciepts or contracts i dont quite know yet.

[Mossfinn]

Stating she is willing to act as another sponsor as well as us, and that the 3 month stay could be shortened if the embassy thought 3 months was too long?

What do you think?

I have just done a search and found a post from Scouse

There's no harm in you presenting yourself as a sponsor and adding that if your income is deemed insufficient, your father will help out. However, he will need to provide evidence of his ability to assist should the need arise. 3rd party sponsors are still allowed in relation to visit visa applications.

I hope this helps

Moss

[BIG SPUDS]

still no input from scouse yet! Anyone know when he'll be back?

[mariner29]

Why not just ring him directly his website is on here ?

[the scouser]

Sorry I've not responded previously, but I've been away for a few days.

The first thing to do is to ensure that you get the appeal form lodged within the 28 days. It will take 7-8 months for the appeal to be heard, but once the form is in, the process will begin.

Once you've got the appeal form lodged, you can then consider your other options. You could either submit representations to the UK Border Agency stating why you believe the decision to be flawed and asking that the decision be overturned, or you could submit a new application, again addressing the reasons for refusal of the initial application. If the worst comes to the worst, and neither ot these options is successful, you will still have the appeal as a fallback.

Scouse.

[glyph]

"We stated that her visit be for 3 months. If this was seen to be too long, why wasn't she given the opportunity to reduce her length of stay."

Because the interview is not a negotiation. If she is a farmer, 3 months is too long. If she stated one month, that would have be seen as more appropriate.

[BIG SPUDS]

"We stated that her visit be for 3 months. If this was seen to be too long, why wasn't she given the opportunity to reduce her length of stay."

Because the interview is not a negotiation. If she is a farmer, 3 months is too long. If she stated one month, that would have be seen as more appropriate.

She wasnt even given an interview! Not too long when her family will run it for her in her abscence. And who is decide on how long, is too long, to take a holiday from your own business apart from yourself?

[Mossfinn]

And who is decide on how long, is too long, to take a holiday from your own business apart from yourself?

The British Embassy presumably, but this isn't the only point they have upheld, there is a total of seven that need to be addressed, one may be over looked and possibly more, but they have addressed that on the balance of probabilities, they believe she may not have sufficient reason to return.

Throw in a longer than usual holiday, from a business that has not been completely verified in the original application ( in their eyes )and what they believe to be insufficient funding for the trip, they in their opinion, have refused the application.

If you feel you can address the issues stated in the refusal, Scouse has stated your next moves.

Moss

[britmaveric]

Which means she won't be coming anytime soon....

[glyph]

"And who is decide on how long, is too long, to take a holiday from your own business apart from yourself?"

Well, in this case, Immigration made the decision. I'm not sure why your wife needs to "help her sister have a baby". Too, I'm not sure claiming your wife has "a motorbike" is indicative of her extensive financial resources.

[Maizefarmer]

... the problem with this appeal is (if I read things correctly), that by the time it is heard, the baby will have been born and the reason for the journey will have come and gone (?)

Sadly, this is another case of the UK Embassy staff treating [all] poor folk the same. Because one is poor one is a potential economic migrant and therefore on balance is likely to overstay(!) While statisitcally/theoreticaly an increased risk may exist, I feel this is used to often to deny many genuine and honest applicants an oppurtunity to visit the UK.

[mariner29]

I would just re-apply trying to cover the concerns of the ECO.

[BIG SPUDS]

a long times passed just keeping you informed,

We did appeal and have just recieved a letter stating that this case can be moved to my home town (Birmingham) to be heard as an oral appeal where i can attend. Fingers crossed!!!

Does anyone have any experience of this, done a search and found nothing!

Just called and asked how much for a solicitor £300 starting rate for a junior! Looks like i'm doing it alone!

[DC1066]

Good luck with the appeal - but I'm guessing you've (your wife) had the baby by now - how is little spuds

[yaketyak]

a long times passed just keeping you informed,

We did appeal and have just recieved a letter stating that this case can be moved to my home town (Birmingham) to be heard as an oral appeal where i can attend. Fingers crossed!!!

Does anyone have any experience of this, done a search and found nothing!

Just called and asked how much for a solicitor £300 starting rate for a junior! Looks like i'm doing it alone!

As regular readers will know , this is quite a normal story for those seeking a UK visitors visa. Average Thai wants to come to the UK , has to jump through lots of hoops , assumption is already made by the ECO that the applicant should be refused unless proved otherwise. The onus is always on the applicant.

They then have a fairly standard refusal form that varies only a little with each case. They fill in the spaces to make the refusal seem individual but actaully it just falls into the same pattern as most refusals. Not enough proof of money , ties to Thailand etc.

In the absence of a tick-box system it then depends on the mood of the ECO on the day.

Even ECO's cannot get away with blatent injustice (injustice yes .. but not blatent) so they fish for a reason or two to refuse and then elaborate the refusal around this . Luckily for them most average Thais (the VAST majority of applicants are this) always have a problem proving salaries as its often unofficial and paid in cash which is spent not banked. This is the case here as well. So there you have it , the ideal basis for a refusal should the ECO feel so inclined.

That is the system we have for UK visas. It won't change , if anything it will get worse. The Labour govt love it and so do the opposition. Not because they think it just , because it wins votes amounst the largely intolerant News of the World/ Daily Mail/ Sun reading public. Has nothing to do with justice ..its all political.