Unreasonable Searches Of Americans Laptops By Us Govt

[lomatopo]

For a lot of this, I feel we do have a certain paranoid global 'leader' to thank.

The U.S. Customs Service, now called Customs and Border Protection, was created by the first Congress as one of their first few acts in 1789, and signed in to law by George Washington. Perhaps this is the "paranoid global 'leader' " to whom you refer? Not that much has changed in 200 years, they are still tasked with "interdicting and seizing contraband" among other things.

On this specific topic, I suspect what upsets some Americans is the sanctity and "right" to the presumption of innocence, and the right to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures. We expect that any authorities have to have some foreknowledge of potential illegal activities, and that they have to justify searches before or after the act, within a legal setting. I am under the impression that this does not apply to anyone entering the United States at borders and ports of entry, so CBP can legally search for, and then if found seize, contraband, without probable cause. I honestly don't see how they could do their job, in this case interdict contraband, without the ability to randomly search people and their belongings?

Based on all I've read on this subject it does seem like most secondary searches, of Americans and involving their PCs, are random. However is some cases there does seem to be some profiling indicated, especially with regards to child pornography.

Again, there really is nothing new here except the technologies potentially used to import and disseminate obscene material.

I have been 'secondarily' reviewed two times, out of fifty entries, over the past five years. One time (HNL) my briefcase and roll-a-board were cursorily searched, and just a few weeks ago at ORD, where an agent took my passport, spent a few minutes at a nearby PC entering/reviewing data, returned my passport and sent me on my way.

[steelepulse]

I went to the states twice last year, once with my family and once by myself. Both times  I was sent to secondary where they talked with us/me, but never searched any of my stuff.  I had my laptop with me both times.  Maybe I was just lucky, or maybe they have my file which says I have a good sense of humor and sharp wit and they should engage me to improve on their people skills .

[scyriacus]

...American politics completely irrelevant to life in Thailand.

so jimjim you are a dreamer. you think, 9/11 has nothing to do with american politics and 9/11 has nothing to do with anyone outside wtc. i live for many years rather peacefully in thailand, and nothing bothers me much, even not some monkey business in bangkok. but what makes me wake up sweating at night are the monkeys in washington dc and their politics of world dominance & total control. and who are you to tell me not to worry and that all this has nothing to do with me and my life in thailand? is 'big brother' watching me even on 'thai visa' trying to censor and deciding what's relevant to me? is the cost of oil not relevant to thailand? does the cost of oil have nothing to do with america?? wake up and your smile will freeze jimjim!. your totally unbiased opinion is 'completly irrelevant' to me......the long arm of modern american inquisition is reaching as far as everywhere.....they pretend to protect me and to save my soul.....but i don't wanna be protected an i need no savior, just wanna live in peace.......but there's one major obstacle...and that is not bin laden or his crew, that is gwb and his inflammatory 'willing coalition'. got me? (or are you even part of that scam, willingly or unwillingly??)

[whatsoever]

With a name like Homeland Security (only a fascist could love it) it's got to be bad.

Exactly Mr Thing!

Fatherland (mr Hitler) Homeland (Mr Bush)

[scyriacus]

For a lot of this, I feel we do have a certain paranoid global 'leader' to thank.

....George Washington. Perhaps this is the "paranoid global 'leader' " to whom you refer? Not that much has changed in 200 years.

you're a model citizen lomatopo. nothing to hide and never involved in child porn. very good! a heartthrobbing speach you delivered. i even believe you! and i admit, that all criminals and terrorists need to be put on justice. but what is justice? who's justice?? ever heard about the innocent suspect just meeting certain perceptions of guilt? civil liberties? freedom?? big brother??? no, sorry that you believe more than you think. you better think twice: think about the many judicial errors, miscarriages of justice, even judicial murders. wouldn't it be better to let a few culprits go free (as happens a thousand times every day!), than to condemn one single innocent? what do you think for whom the law is made? to protect the innocent or to condemn the guilty?? some food for thought, uh.......

[scyriacus]

With a name like Homeland Security (only a fascist could love it) it's got to be bad.

Exactly Mr Thing!

Fatherland (mr Hitler) Homeland (Mr Bush)

wow, i adore you and your good humor, whatsoever!

[whatsoever]

With a name like Homeland Security (only a fascist could love it) it's got to be bad.

Exactly Mr Thing!

Fatherland (mr Hitler) Homeland (Mr Bush)

wow, i adore you and your good humor, whatsoever!

Well thankyou Enabling Act (Mr Hitler) Patriot Act (Mr Bush)

[adam1]

Tripe huh?

Are you looking for a fight, or are you just in a bad mood?

It's true what I said, it's what I feel, and I have expressed such before in many other theatres.

Or are you pissed because I think the US govt is way outta control, like the vast mojority of posters here?

Or, you could apologise for insulting my well-meaning comments, mr newbie.

Btw, I do like most Americans very much: I find them frank, forthright, fair-minded and generally goodhearted.

For some reason that sort of tripe is often appended to a bigoted bashing of yanks.

[lannarebirth]

With a name like Homeland Security (only a fascist could love it) it's got to be bad.

Exactly Mr Thing!

Fatherland (mr Hitler) Homeland (Mr Bush)

wow, i adore you and your good humor, whatsoever!

Well thankyou Enabling Act (Mr Hitler) Patriot Act (Mr Bush)

It's important to remember, that in America, laws are subject to constitutional review. The constitution is not subject to new laws (although some judicial liberalism exists at various times). The wheels of the Supreme Court move slowly but they do move.

[whatsoever]

With a name like Homeland Security (only a fascist could love it) it's got to be bad.

Exactly Mr Thing!

Fatherland (mr Hitler) Homeland (Mr Bush)

wow, i adore you and your good humor, whatsoever!

Well thankyou Enabling Act (Mr Hitler) Patriot Act (Mr Bush)

It's important to remember, that in America, laws are subject to constitutional review. The constitution is not subject to new laws (although some judicial liberalism exists at various times). The wheels of the Supreme Court move slowly but they do move.

Reichstag (Mr Hitler) Twin towers (Mr Bush)

I think you may find that following 9/11 Mr Bush declared a state of emergency - renewed annualy and current to this day - which gives him executive power to suspend the constitution in the event of a national emergency!!!!!!!

[h90]

With a name like Homeland Security (only a fascist could love it) it's got to be bad.

Exactly Mr Thing!

Fatherland (mr Hitler) Homeland (Mr Bush)

wow, i adore you and your good humor, whatsoever!

Well thankyou Enabling Act (Mr Hitler) Patriot Act (Mr Bush)

It's important to remember, that in America, laws are subject to constitutional review. The constitution is not subject to new laws (although some judicial liberalism exists at various times). The wheels of the Supreme Court move slowly but they do move.

Where is the Supreme Court when USA tortures people uses banned weapons and kills 1.000.000 people. It is as efficient as it was in Germany.

[Jingthing]

Perhaps limiting this to laptop and camera card search would be advisable?

[CCCP]

Finally, a voice of reason about this incredible invasion of privacy of traveling American citizens.

This is Thai related because there is anecdotal evidence that Americans returning from Thailand are among the most targeted travelers for these laptop (and camera memory card) invasive WITHOUT CAUSE searches. In my view, such extreme invasions of privacy are the kind of thing done by TOTALITARIAN regimes of the left and right (Stalinist Russia, Hitler's Germany, today's Burma and North Korea).

The government has the right to take reasonable steps to control what comes into the country, but the laptop-search program's invasions of privacy go far beyond what is reasonable.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/10/opinion/edlaptop.php

Bang goes your 4th ammendment. Thanks to the FISA, and Obama's betrayal. Good look guys because things are going to get much worse in the US regarding your privacy, or lack of should I say.

[Shotime]

Sometimes being a European and not some "suspicious looking" guy from the middle east or Asia doesn't guarantee you anything. Sometimes they just want to break your balls because they sense an attitude. Not necessarily that you're a terrorist. I was approached by a couple Homeland security guys at LAX once. After about 5 minutes of Q&A they left. I thanked them for doing their job.

Comparing Bush To Adolph isn't even close. I'm sure that there is a sociopath pushing the buttons somewhere. Forget GW. I read that at the G8 a mic was on and he said something like I'm not going to talk as long as those other guys. Come on.

What's the topic? Oh. Don't carry a laptop for short trips of less than 2 weeks. That's called freedom.

[lomatopo]

Bang goes your 4th ammendment.

I realize that many might not be able to appreciate it, and it is a fine point perhaps but wholly applicable, the Fourth Ammendment refers to U.S. Citizens in the U.S., just in case it wasn't obvious.

Prior to clearing Immigration and Customs you are technically not in the U.S. The mandate to interdict contraband at borders and ports of entry, technically outside the U.S., allows for potentially "unreasonable" searches. In essence, this does not become a "right" until you are in the U.S., provided you are a citizen. I am not a lawyer.

Many of the tangential posts on this thread might warrant further discussions in other threads/forums, while several only serve to reinforce the idea that there are far too many crazy folk on this board.

[Jingthing]

Well, crazy is in the eye of the beholder. I think people who think it is OK for their government to conduct without cause invasions of privacy of their computer files are the crazy ones. To me, they don't value freedom and are overly tolerant of totalitarianism. The idea is to fight terrorism and protect our freedoms? See the contradiction?

Edited July 14, 2008 by Jingthing

[Jimjim]

...American politics completely irrelevant to life in Thailand.

so jimjim you are a dreamer. you think, 9/11 has nothing to do with american politics and 9/11 has nothing to do with anyone outside wtc. i live for many years rather peacefully in thailand, and nothing bothers me much, even not some monkey business in bangkok. but what makes me wake up sweating at night are the monkeys in washington dc and their politics of world dominance & total control. and who are you to tell me not to worry and that all this has nothing to do with me and my life in thailand? is 'big brother' watching me even on 'thai visa' trying to censor and deciding what's relevant to me? is the cost of oil not relevant to thailand? does the cost of oil have nothing to do with america?? wake up and your smile will freeze jimjim!. your totally unbiased opinion is 'completly irrelevant' to me......the long arm of modern american inquisition is reaching as far as everywhere.....they pretend to protect me and to save my soul.....but i don't wanna be protected an i need no savior, just wanna live in peace.......but there's one major obstacle...and that is not bin laden or his crew, that is gwb and his inflammatory 'willing coalition'. got me? (or are you even part of that scam, willingly or unwillingly??)

Settle down their big boy. You're going off the deep end. I'm not big brother, just someone with an opinion. You're just way out there, buddy.

You read way more into those few words than there was. All I meant was American politics are only indirectly related to Thailand and I'd rather not see conversation about them on a Thai forum unless it's something shown to be directly related. Take a chill pill. Your arguments are muddled and confusing. I never said anything about 9/11, you did. How does 9/11 relate to Thailand in a way that it doesn't relate to anywhere in the world? Only thing I can think of is at least one Thai citizen was killed in 9/11. Again, think before you speak and you'll make more sense. I also said nothing about the price of oil. This topic is about computers being searched upon entering the U.S. It's indirectly related to Thailand life. You've got me laughing. Thanks for the laughs.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Jimjim

[Mr lamai]

Americans :D . 30 years ago they inspected each and every sailors genetal if you wanted to go ashore.I usually get full of laugh when i hear americans bragging.

Let them have their illusions :D

Norway is the capital of Copenhagen!

Cheers

[lannarebirth]

Americans . 30 years ago they inspected each and every sailors genetal if you wanted to go ashore.I usually get full of laugh when i hear americans bragging.

Let them have their illusions

Norway is the capital of Copenhagen!

Cheers

Well, I was a sailor for 25 years and cleared customs hundreds of times in dozens of countries and something like that never happened even once. I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

[Mr lamai]

Americans . 30 years ago they inspected each and every sailors genetal if you wanted to go ashore.I usually get full of laugh when i hear americans bragging.

Let them have their illusions

Norway is the capital of Copenhagen!

Cheers

Well, I was a sailor for 25 years and cleared customs hundreds of times in dozens of countries and something like that never happened even once. I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

25 years at sea and you have never heard about the famous "dickswing" infront of one US healthinspector???. I bet you are from the US since their citizens were extempt.Otherwise i dont know where you spent your time at sea

[lannarebirth]

Americans . 30 years ago they inspected each and every sailors genetal if you wanted to go ashore.I usually get full of laugh when i hear americans bragging.

Let them have their illusions

Norway is the capital of Copenhagen!

Cheers

Well, I was a sailor for 25 years and cleared customs hundreds of times in dozens of countries and something like that never happened even once. I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

25 years at sea and you have never heard about the famous "dickswing" infront of one US healthinspector???. I bet you are from the US since their citizens were extempt.Otherwise i dont know where you spent your time at sea

I was an American Merchant Marine officer.

[thaigene2]

with the exception of a few encryption programs notably PGP, the NSA can decrypt anything they want as they have a law in the US pertaining to backdoors built into encryption schemes that allow the NSA to see anything they want, encryption in the USA is certified by the NSA so guess what, they can see it all, if they want to

Nothing personal 'pampal'

Just grabbed yours as it was convenient..

Look, "THEY" as in USA or Thai or whomever, already know who you/me/they are. So what..Don't be scared - OVERWHELM them with your opinions and F+CK em.

[aries27]

This is not about "unreasonable searches of laptops" anymore but since the issue of reading emails and files have been mentioned, may I ask if it is true... read it somewhere... Is it true that even non-US citizens can have their emails read (and phones wiretapped) if the US agency (in charge of this, whoever they are) deems it is a threat to their national security, and it will be legal if 1) the non US-citizen is emailing a US citizen; and 2) the servers are located in US soil which virtually makes anyone in the world who uses yahoo, gmail, hotmail, and all those US-based web-based emails a potential victim?

If it is true, then what is their moral justification of spying into private conversations and letters? We write, talk with people we know with our confidence and secrets, thinking we are only imparting our stories to this particular person/s we hold close. And then we would later realize, some strangers are reading us and knowing our inner thoughts, etc. It is easy to justify.. "this is for our national security"..but do they ever stop and think the repercussions, the harm and hurt that the invasion to privacy could do to the individual who is not even a "threat" after all, just that some government suspected him or her to be so? Has the US government ever realized how much damage they could do to a person and his family and friends for spying on their private files, US citizen or not? If the foot is in the other shoe, how would they feel if this was done to them?

Please allow me to digress...

This whole thing of "national security" measures is really an offshoot of the paranoia arising from 9/11, right? Sure there are also the sex crimes we have to watch out for but this seems secondary (albeit important).

Also, is the war in Iraq really because of oil and oil alone? Let us presume it is also because the US wanted to exact revenge (as in Afghanistan) as well as the whole paranoia (yes, that word again, sorry!) of the WMD and Saddam. It was never proven that these weapons existed.

Meanwhile, to prevent another 9/11 from happening which cost 2,974 deaths (acc. to wikipedia) and millions (billions?) of dollars worth of properties (WTC towers, Pentagon etc) including the emotional damages and the FEAR which is "un-priceable" that set the tone for almost all major decisions of the US government (and some allied countries) from foreign policy to tourism to just about anything now... they have gone to war/s....

But the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq did not solve anything, it did not prevent terrorist acts from happening (maybe even escalated it) not even the paranoia in the minds of some leaders.

But as this particular website http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/ points out: 4,119 American soldiers have been killed, over 30,000 wounded (official records, but estimates could ran to 100,000 and if you will probably study individual cases of the wounded, it will altogether be another story), plus 314 Coalition forces death, and the topper... 1,236,604 Iraqis death if Iraqi lives matter to you. The website provides more statistics, breakdowns, real but ugly, or depressing.

How much has the US spent?

Internet websites state from US$450 billion to 3 trillion. How much has it affected the US economy which in turn impacts on world economy?

The question is, is it all worth it? Has the wars effectively stopped terrorism? Have the actual perpetrators been punished? Or have the wars killed innocent lives (soldiers and civilians) more than anyone else?

I beg your indulgence when I ask these questions:

But was going to war the right solution to the problem? Did it attack the symptom rather than the problem? Before anyone decided to send the troops, did someone dare ask, "Why did these radical Muslims bomb us?" "Why did they hate us so, killing our innocent civilians in such as dastardly act?"

Furthermore, one could ask, "Have we done something to them that would make them this angry at us?" "Did we unknowingly make them angry?" "Did they just misunderstand us?" If the answers are all "YES", then perhaps...

One would ask some more:

"Now how do we remedy the situation?" "What actions should we do so they don't get angry or misunderstand us anymore" "How do we reach out to them?"

"How do we settle this problem peacefully, economically, simply, over a cup of coffee, tea or a glass of wine?"

Sometimes it is easy to become paranoid when you do not understand things very well, or something is different from where you are coming from, or mistrust easily. The way to deal with it as someone says is to face what is giving you paranoia.. as someone said before, you have nothing to fear but fear itself. Sometimes, we are scared of something that is not really there, it just happened in our minds but since everybody is talking about it, imagination becomes real, just as fantasy becomes real for many dreamers out there.

Yes, this is not a cliche: "Truth can set us free"... In this case, truth and facing it, will erase many fears in our minds and consequently lead to better understanding of the different cultures of this world. Talk to the person/s you fear... Approach or touch the thing that is giving you scares. Chances are, when you do that, you will stop being fearful. Remember when we were kids, whistling winds, blown curtains are "ghosts", darkness is scary until the lights are turned on...

Is it too late to stop the hurt and deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan? Maybe it is too late for the soldiers and the civilians who have died, young and old the countries affected... but it is not too late for the surviving soldiers, the new ones who are about to enter the force, and the millions of Iraqis and Afghans who are dying or going to die and fleeing their homes because of the wars.

We are all humans. And humans make mistakes, including world leaders and their advisers. If we can forgive our faults, then others can forgive us too. We should. Because no one wants a world full of finger-pointing, paranoia (that word again!), mistrust, and death and violence.

We need a peaceful world where we all can be trusting and cooperative and helpful again. Because that is the natural way to live and let live. Let the deaths and suffering of our fellow mankind humble us. It is alright to say, "Sorry, I have made an honest mistake. Please forgive me"

Many thanks for reading my long missive.

Reason for edit: Capitalize letters, corrected spellings.

Edited July 15, 2008 by aries27

[geriatrickid]

There is no longer any justification for searching laptops based upon anti terrorism efforts. Know why? It's called memory sticks and cards. They can be concealed in any piece of luggage. I am unaware of any terrorist every being caught in a US airport subsequent to a laptop search. If someone was carrying attack info, it would be on a memory stick and probably shoved up the guy's rectum.

If the intent is to interdict "pornography", then the government should be honest about it and say so. Hiding behind the national security excuse is dishonest.

Having had my laptop grabbed at LAX by rude aggressive "Homeland" security agents, I am not overly sympathetic to searches. (Big diff when compared to SFO where they are professional and actually know how to turn a laptop on.)

[Naam]

Americans :D . 30 years ago they inspected each and every sailors genetal if you wanted to go ashore.I usually get full of laugh when i hear americans bragging.

Let them have their illusions :D

Norway is the capital of Copenhagen!

is it not?

[cloudhopper]

I'm not sure if you made any domestic flights on your recent visit, but if you did you came up against the Homeland Security pricks. They are by far more invasive of your privacy than customs. Customs usually does a pretty good job IMO. Most people know the rules and follow them Homeland security on the other hand are a bunch of arbitrary and malicious fuc_ks. Two years ago most of'em were working in the parking garage and now they seem to have carte blanche to mess with the public at will. It's a sick fuc_king society that allows that IMO.

Check this out-

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/14/terror.wa...t.ap/index.html

[LivinLOS]

You hiding smth jingthing? BTW its random mate, not sure why you are getting your panties in a wad for? If you fit criteria, then be prepared for a little inconvenience. Flying is not a right, just remember that.

So is it random ?? or is it profiling ??

Make your mind up.

[Crushdepth]

It's probably both. They keep statistics on offenders and it is true that certain groups of people are more (or less) likely to be carrying certain kinds of contraband. If you fit one of the high-risk groups, you are more likely to receive attention from customs or quarantine officers.

I presume that 'homeland security' (what an awful name) would do the same, but I don't know for sure because we don't have that kind of paranoid crap in Australia. (Yet).

[Spee]

Bang goes your 4th ammendment.

I realize that many might not be able to appreciate it, and it is a fine point perhaps but wholly applicable, the Fourth Ammendment refers to U.S. Citizens in the U.S., just in case it wasn't obvious.

Prior to clearing Immigration and Customs you are technically not in the U.S. The mandate to interdict contraband at borders and ports of entry, technically outside the U.S., allows for potentially "unreasonable" searches. In essence, this does not become a "right" until you are in the U.S., provided you are a citizen. I am not a lawyer.

Many of the tangential posts on this thread might warrant further discussions in other threads/forums, while several only serve to reinforce the idea that there are far too many crazy folk on this board.

Or alternatively ...

One's rights continue to be rights only up to the point where one ceases to be willing to fight for them.

[Spee]

Having had my laptop grabbed at LAX by rude aggressive "Homeland" security agents, I am not overly sympathetic to searches.

I couldn't agree more. There's nothing wrong with letting people visibly inspect a laptop on demand, or even x-ray/scan it for various contraband, or even turn it on to verify that it is an operational machine. But no one can force you to provide a log-in password or anything else without showing cause, even if that results in headaches and delays.

It's no different than allowing a police officer into your home. Once they are inside the door, anything in view is fair game. It's no different with a laptop. Once they are "inside", anything they want to look at is fair game.

People will always look for a way out. The logical alternative would seem to be create a "dummy" user account with no local admin rights and not much of anything to look at. Then when asked to log in, they could use the "dummy" account, there wouldn't be much to see and the average rent-a-cop would likely be none the wiser.

On an aside note, I've recently returned back to the states after being abroad for most of the last 6-7 years. It's more than a bit scary that the US appears to be looking a lot like a police state. First there is the overkill at immigration and customs. I spent a couple of days in Washington DC and I swear there was a cop everywhere I looked. There's the local yocals. There's the capitol police all over the place. There's the Amtrak police all over at Union Station. It's no different out in the sticks, where there are locals, sheriffs and state police, the vast majority of whom seem to be deployed shooting radar and writing speeding tickets (i.e., raising revenue) more than anything else. I've always been a advocate of a strong, well funded law enforcement arm of government. But when that arm becomes so restrictive that it starts infringing on personal freedoms and functions more as a revenue generator than enforcement, then it is time for change. Part of living in a society with great freedom is being allowed to enjoy those freedoms, not to continue to increase restrictions on them.