New Thai Condo Law

[ripley]

Anybody got a copy or know where to get an accurate copy of the English translation of the new Thai condo law?

In our building, I've heard that the plan - based on new law - is to have the AGM and the second call meeting on the same day "to avoid inconvenience". Don't know if that's true. Have also read an opinion that the second call meeting does not require a quorum.

[Ungabunga]

Sorry, I dunno, but have you tried asking in the Real Estate Forum? Perhaps someone there has already got a copy.

[Basil B]

Anybody got a copy or know where to get an accurate copy of the English translation of the new Thai condo law?

In our building, I've heard that the plan - based on new law - is to have the AGM and the second call meeting on the same day "to avoid inconvenience". Don't know if that's true. Have also read an opinion that the second call meeting does not require a quorum.

Also anybody know what the law says about the Juristic persons responsibility is in regards to notifying co-owners of meetings and sending/posting reports of meetings to co-owners.

BB

(disenfranchised co-owner)

[jbaldwin]

There has been a long term problem that many condos could not get a quorum for AGM so, for example, fees could never be increased causing substantual problems.

The new condo act reduced the quorum from 33% to 20%. In addition, if there is no quorum at a general meeting, a second meeting can be called within 15 days and there is no quorum for this new meeting.

Notice of a meeting must be sent to co-owners at least 7 days before the date of the meeting

[Tammi]

Anybody got a copy or know where to get an accurate copy of the English translation of the new Thai condo law?

In our building, I've heard that the plan - based on new law - is to have the AGM and the second call meeting on the same day "to avoid inconvenience". Don't know if that's true. Have also read an opinion that the second call meeting does not require a quorum.

You might find something here.

http://www.pattayacityexpatsclub.com/modul...le&sid=1185

I believe the new law states that the accounts must be on the notice board by the 15th of each month and must remain on board for 15 days. Has this happened in your condo?

New condo law says that for 2nd called meeting "the constitution of a quorum shall be irrelevant." Does this mean one person can turn up and propose and pass resolutions? Mind you, where I stay, co-owners are not allowed by the committee to pass resolutions and resolutions that had been passed in days gone by were ignored by the committee.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Tammi

[Tammi]

There has been a long term problem that many condos could not get a quorum for AGM so, for example, fees could never be increased causing substantual problems.

The new condo act reduced the quorum from 33% to 20%. In addition, if there is no quorum at a general meeting, a second meeting can be called within 15 days and there is no quorum for this new meeting.

Notice of a meeting must be sent to co-owners at least 7 days before the date of the meeting

I understood that new Act reduced quorum at 1st called meeting to 25%. At 2nd called meeting any number makes a quorum.

[Tammi]

Anybody got a copy or know where to get an accurate copy of the English translation of the new Thai condo law?

In our building, I've heard that the plan - based on new law - is to have the AGM and the second call meeting on the same day "to avoid inconvenience". Don't know if that's true. Have also read an opinion that the second call meeting does not require a quorum.

As far as I know new Law states that another general meeting shall be announced and held within 15 days from the published date of the previous meeting.

Some condos, when sending out notification of AGM, have stated in the notification that if no quorum then 2nd called meeting will be held in the afternoon of same day as 1st called meeting. Saves on committee members having to turn up on 2 different days! We wouldn't want our committee members to be inconvenienced!

BTW, new Law says that committee members cannot hold proxies. Also, it is worth noting that a committee member is elected for a 2 year term and may be reelected for a further 2 years but shall not be entitled to be on the committee longer than 2 consecutive terms except when no replacement can be recruited. The Manager has to submit the appointment of the committee to the competent official for registration within 30 days after the resolution is approved at the AGM.

[Tammi]

This just in from a Pattaya Forum thread. Underlining is mine.

"Group: Members

Posts: 19

Joined: 2008-07-08

Member No.: 64,435

Tammi addresses a point which emerged recently regarding the new Thai Condo Law & its effect on AGMs & "second call" meetings. Alarming that a handful of people might be entitled to make decisions & demand money from the owners, etc. - even, taken to the extreme - one person who happens to be the only one attending a second-call.

In April, J. Fishback gave a speech & later held a kind of seminar for the ExPat's club on the new Thai Law. Later, he said he'd have to retract some of what he'd reported because his English translation of the new law was inaccurate. I think it's important that condo owners find an accurate translation and educate themselves. This Thai Law takes precedence over individual condominium rules and regulations. How much room does it leave for abuse? What & where are the loopholes?

All of this is off the subject of "Condo owners sue for sea view", which is why I tried to start a new Topic. Maybe mine was too specifically JCC. How about one on Thai Condo Law and how it effects us, where we find the real deal, etc.? "

Statements/Law should always be taken to the extreme to prove them.

[ripley]

Found text of 2008 condo law actually ON Thai Visa Forum, but unable to cut & paste to to this site. Fishback apparently supplied Pattaya Expats Club with the most recent of the 3 translations he's gone thru, but I couldn't access it. Anybody w/ more computer savvy want to try to put it on this site? Then we'd have an easily accessible ground for discussion & questions. Am informed that Thai Govt. doesn't issue "official" english translations, so all we'll ever have to work with are bootlegs it seems.

[stopvt7]

You may purchase a translation of the new condo act at:

International Translation Office

2nd Floor, 22Ssilom Road, Bangrak, Bangkok 10500

Tel: 02-233-7714, 02-234-9969, 02-267-1097-8

Email: [email protected]

Many foreign lawyers purchase translated Thai government laws from International Translation Office.

Someone needs to putting out some money and purchase a copy of the new condo act, Then you need to post a copy to share on a blog.

Without a good translation copy of the new condo act all you going to have is hearsay?

[ripley]

Found this recently. Seems to give a balanced view but unclear as to what is old & new;

http://www.sohoproperties.com/condominiumthailand_law.php

Why Thai Condominium Law can be more harmful than good

Thai law allows a maximum of 49% foreign ownership in a condominium. So prior to agreeing to buy, it is necessary to check with the building management regarding the current rate.

It is never easy to manage a condominium — you will never please all of the people all of the time. But things get particularly difficult when you consider the implications of Thai Condominium law: a general a mix of dark grey and light grey, with little snippets of black and white.

I am not a qualified lawyer but I do have extensive experience in managing condominiums here in Thailand, and I am going to share with you some of my frustrations:

The Thai Condominium Act was written in 2522 (26 years ago) and, since its inception, has been modified only once by the Thai Condominium Act 2534. This Act basically covered rules only relating to foreign ownership.

However, instead of making positive amendments to the Act when a problematic situation arose; instead of learning from experience; instead of improving the Act and making it more user-friendly and more beneficial for condominium owners in Bangkok (there are of course a whole lot more condominiums now than there were 26 years ago), what has been done? You've guessed it...nothing.

What are the consequences of this neglect? The fact is that many condominiums in Thailand are forced to break the law just to avoid going bankrupt. And, as time goes by, inflationary pressure will mean that a condominium will eventually be spending more than it receives in Common Area Management (CAM) fees. Then there will then not be enough money available for even for the most basic necessities, such as repairs, repainting, cleaning, etc.

It is obvious that to avoid finances going belly-up, CAM fees have to be increased. However, although the Condominium Act itself is a bit vague, the Land Department has confirmed that in order to register a CAM fee increase with them and make it legal, there needs to be 75% or more of all condominium co-owners present in a general meeting to approve it.

This is just practically impossible for most condominiums: the chances of having 75% of all co-owners in the same place at the same time, for them all to forfeit their social arrangements and attend a general meeting on CAM fees, is nigh on impossible.

So, either the condominium doesn't increase its CAM fees and the building slowly falls into dereliction, or the CAM fees are increased anyway, ignoring the 75% rule and thereby illegally circumventing the registration requirements of the Land Department.

What if the co-owner refuses to pay the increase in CAM fees? Well, this is where Thai Law really makes things difficult: there is nothing the condominium can do. Luckily for most condominiums, people generally want what is best for them and they pay up. But in others, co-owners refuse to allow a CAM fee increase without the 75% voting rule. That is when the financial troubles really start. The law was drafted to protect the majority co-owners but in reality it hurts them all.

Typically you need 33% of all co-owners to attend a general meeting and make up a quorum. But the Condominium Act states that if you want to make any changes to the Condominium Articles of Association, or increase CAM fees, you need 75% of all co-owners to approve. So you can hold a general meeting, but you just cannot vote on anything. Where is the common sense in that?"

So remember, if you've seen a condominium unit you like, don't just buy it without doing your homework first. Here's some pointers to bear in mind:

Check that the condominium income is sufficient to pay for its expenditure. Ask to see the financial statements;

Check that all co-owners are paying their CAM fees. It's not worth buying a unit if half the co-owners aren't paying or aren't able to pay;

Find out if there are any ongoing legal disputes, any likely to happen in the future, or if the banks have seized any units.

***********

Going to make new Topic which is just a translation of new condo law for easy reference when discussing things on this site.

Don't know anything about the Housing Laws - let's get some input on that?

[ripley]

While searching for text/s of condo law changes discovered an informative site already existing on thaivisaforum. I typed in "thai condominium law text 2008". Will copy texts onto new Topic for our easy reference, but the site is worth checking out.

Everyone has a personal bias this way & that, so of course keep in mind this leaks into translations & analysis.

[ripley]

Okay - 2 versions on new "Topic" - Texts. One of them was meant to illustrate changes with underlining and red highlighting, but these visual aids didn't come thru.

Edited July 16, 2008 by ripley

[Old Man River]

Okay - 2 versions on new "Topic" - Texts. One of them was meant to illustrate changes with underlining and red highlighting, but these visual aids didn't come thru.

The information you are providing on this thread and the previous one is very useful.

Thanks

[ripley]

Tammi mentions that her condo committee takes no notice of the will of the co-owners. How did THAT happen? What's the story?

Browsing the Condo Act & pondering one thing sticks out like an ulcer - the scope for misuse and corruption by a committee which now needs to be only 3 people. Decisions being made and rate increases enabled by second call meetings not requiring a quorum.

When you have a good committee (possible - after all, these people are volunteering their time & energies) the new law enables them to protect and improve the building. But what about the scoundrels? No protection from them should they achieve those committee seats. In at least one building the committee has got themselves an insurance policy (paid for by owners) protecting them from lawsuits. When you think of it, the sky's the limit.

I'm afraid the time has come for condo owners to become more active. Do you think this is possible to happen?

The paradise we invested in can turn into a ghetto if owners don't become aware and participate in governance. Tammi - what's your story? Might be an object lesson for us all?

[Tammi]

Tammi mentions that her condo committee takes no notice of the will of the co-owners. How did THAT happen? What's the story?

Browsing the Condo Act & pondering one thing sticks out like an ulcer - the scope for misuse and corruption by a committee which now needs to be only 3 people. Decisions being made and rate increases enabled by second call meetings not requiring a quorum.

When you have a good committee (possible - after all, these people are volunteering their time & energies) the new law enables them to protect and improve the building. But what about the scoundrels? No protection from them should they achieve those committee seats. In at least one building the committee has got themselves an insurance policy (paid for by owners) protecting them from lawsuits. When you think of it, the sky's the limit.

I'm afraid the time has come for condo owners to become more active. Do you think this is possible to happen?

The paradise we invested in can turn into a ghetto if owners don't become aware and participate in governance. Tammi - what's your story? Might be an object lesson for us all?

Ripley, two days since you posted and not a co-owner with anything to say. Maybe they are all quite content with how their condos are being managed! But probably they are just not interested and will not be interested in the Juristic Person Regulations and the Conda Act until the condition of the condo can no longer be ignored. At this condo the accounting is not yet on the bulletin board - it should have been there on the 15th as per the new Condo Act. And there has been no committee meeting for 4 months.

[ripley]

So, Tammi - So, how did it come to pass that your condo owners have no input to what goes on in your building? No committee meeting in 4 months? Is the building so well-maintained & maintenance funds available in plenty so that the owners find no reason to protest or become involved? I'm serious about wanting to know.

I worry about getting an irresponsible committee or an crooked one. I worry because 3 members are enough for a committee under Thai law. I worry that rises in maintenace or adoption of new fees for various "funds" can be voted in by whomever happens to attend a second call mtng and will be legal under the new law regarding AGMs/EGMs.

It's possible for a speculator to connive to increase annual costs by so much that people have to sell out - allowing said speculator to buy up at a cheap price. That despite maintenance fees, the building will be allowed to deteriorate and, despite the posted monthly balance sheet the money trickle elsewhere. Almost anyone can hold a committee post but there are few criteria for membership or grounds for dismissal. For instance - someone could have a record of malfeasance, suppression of owners' rights - even violence & still be eligible.

The owners are very vulnerable as things stand.

Thinking it over seven ways to Sunday, there seems to be only one answer. That is to get every owner of a condo unit to vote at AGMs. For that they need to be given information about the Agenda & issues to be discussed. Our building used to send out AGM invitations w/ proxy forms 2wks before the mtng. Now that so many people are on the internet, it's possible to disseminate Agenda, Issues, and minutes of the last meeting - owners just need to inform the office of their internet address. I asked some people in our building about why internet wasn't being used and was told that "it's too expensive"! More expensive than sending airmail or regular mail to Germany, Finland, etc?

So, the question I ask is: What can be done to get the owners to participate in the process?

[jpm76]

So, Tammi - So, how did it come to pass that your condo owners have no input to what goes on in your building? No committee meeting in 4 months? Is the building so well-maintained & maintenance funds available in plenty so that the owners find no reason to protest or become involved? I'm serious about wanting to know.

I worry about getting an irresponsible committee or an crooked one. I worry because 3 members are enough for a committee under Thai law. I worry that rises in maintenace or adoption of new fees for various "funds" can be voted in by whomever happens to attend a second call mtng and will be legal under the new law regarding AGMs/EGMs.

It's possible for a speculator to connive to increase annual costs by so much that people have to sell out - allowing said speculator to buy up at a cheap price. That despite maintenance fees, the building will be allowed to deteriorate and, despite the posted monthly balance sheet the money trickle elsewhere. Almost anyone can hold a committee post but there are few criteria for membership or grounds for dismissal. For instance - someone could have a record of malfeasance, suppression of owners' rights - even violence & still be eligible.

The owners are very vulnerable as things stand.

Thinking it over seven ways to Sunday, there seems to be only one answer. That is to get every owner of a condo unit to vote at AGMs. For that they need to be given information about the Agenda & issues to be discussed. Our building used to send out AGM invitations w/ proxy forms 2wks before the mtng. Now that so many people are on the internet, it's possible to disseminate Agenda, Issues, and minutes of the last meeting - owners just need to inform the office of their internet address. I asked some people in our building about why internet wasn't being used and was told that "it's too expensive"! More expensive than sending airmail or regular mail to Germany, Finland, etc?

So, the question I ask is: What can be done to get the owners to participate in the process?

Yes, good post Ripley. This is an area of great interest to many. I was wondering if anyone about the facts surrounding the new laws and how it affects owners when the 49% ownership is all taken up? Are Thai corporations still an option? I heard that they were looking at closing some of the loopholes there so that it became very difficult for a foreigner to set up a coproration to hold condos? How does this affect the marketing on this point? Will developers make sure that they do not sell to over 49% foreign ownership, or will they continue to sell past the 49% and let the fallout happen as it does? If anyone has knowledge upon this area, it would be greatly appreciated.

[jbaldwin]

Our condo has put basis information on a simple website. Not difficult for other to do the same thing.

www.geocities.com/thaibalicondo

[ripley]

Our condo has put basis information on a simple website. Not difficult for other to do the same thing.

www.geocities.com/thaibalicondo

Is there a website format that would allow owners to vote via email?

[Sojourner]

You may purchase a translation of the new condo act at:

International Translation Office

2nd Floor, 22Ssilom Road, Bangrak, Bangkok 10500

Tel: 02-233-7714, 02-234-9969, 02-267-1097-8

Email: [email protected]

Many foreign lawyers purchase translated Thai government laws from International Translation Office.

Someone needs to putting out some money and purchase a copy of the new condo act, Then you need to post a copy to share on a blog.

Without a good translation copy of the new condo act all you going to have is hearsay?

Called them and was told by the manager that the translation of the 2008 Condo Act #4 is about two months away.

[sabaijai]

Our condo has put basis information on a simple website. Not difficult for other to do the same thing.

www.geocities.com/thaibalicondo

That link doesn't work.

Does anyone have a link to the original Thai text of the new law?

[jbaldwin]

Our condo has put basis information on a simple website. Not difficult for other to do the same thing.

www.geocities.com/thaibalicondo

That link doesn't work.

Does anyone have a link to the original Thai text of the new law?

Sorry for typo should be

www.geocities.com/thabalicondo

Edited July 26, 2008 by jbaldwin

[whatsoever]

The mass interest in this post tells a story

[ripley]

To Whasoever - I agree. I reckon the majority of people have to have their pants on fire before they'll cover their butts.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

The condo we live in has a all thai board. When we tried to get one of the farang owners on the board they said only Thais could be board members. Which since then we found is a lot of BS. Went to a meeting in Nov. and it was all in Thai so didn't learn much. Did manage to get the wife of one of the farang members on the board. I think they hate it as she is very active and verbal about getting things done.

Finally got the building painted (in progress) and the pool reworked (just finished). The decision on the paint colors was pretty much the deciosion of one man. Until the farang wife jumped on him and got the colors adjusted.

Most of the Thai owners are very passive about the units they own. Don't attend meetings or respond to questions about the condo. Thais don't like to have farangs attend meetings or be on the board as they expect to much. Want details on the $$ etc. It is definitely a struggle but you can get things done if you persist and have a Thai speaking member on the board that will express your wishes.

Once the paint job is complete (3 Thai months) the building will be in good shape and with normal maint. should be good for a few years before we have to go through it once more. The sinking fund will have about 12 million after the work is done and paid for. That should last into the into the foreseeable future. Good luck to anyone trying to get anything achieved.

Of the 38 units in the condo only two couples live here full time both farang. Others show up on holidays and the occasional weekend, never more than a dozen units occupied at one time. So we pretty much have it to ourself most of the time and quite like it that way. Never a worry about parking and it is nice and quiet most of the time. All in all we are very happy with it.

[ripley]

Our bldg. had much the same story. A few farangs got on the board and managed to make some changes such as posting information in English as well as Thai, having English newspapers in the lobby, etc. Later on they got a regulation that all AGMs must be held on the premises. (Previously they were held in Bangkok or elsewhere at locations nobody could find!) Since then every attempt is made to offer translations at mtngs. as well. You can do quite a lot with Regulations. They have only to be voted in at an AGM & as long as they don't contradict Thai condo law, they're binding.

A few days ago I spent about 4 hours brainstorming with another owner (from a different bldg.) We came to the same conclusion. Farang owners are every bit as indifferent as Thai ones. They come here to holiday - full stop. So it's got to be made really easy for them to give input. The answer would be a Website which also enables owners to do absentee voting via the website. A website could give agendas, explanations, etc. for those who are interested as well as budget updates and condo events. People could debate issues on a thread or something. And, best of all, no one could ever again complain that they had been denied a voice in what goes on. It would need the cooperation of the Board and JPM and a few people willing to create and monitor.

I'd like to hear more from jbaldwin on this subject. How did they get started & how is it working out?

Edited July 28, 2008 by ripley

[jbaldwin]

Our bldg. had much the same story. A few farangs got on the board and managed to make some changes such as posting information in English as well as Thai, having English newspapers in the lobby, etc. Later on they got a regulation that all AGMs must be held on the premises. (Previously they were held in Bangkok or elsewhere at locations nobody could find!) Since then every attempt is made to offer translations at mtngs. as well. You can do quite a lot with Regulations. They have only to be voted in at an AGM & as long as they don't contradict Thai condo law, they're binding.

A few days ago I spent about 4 hours brainstorming with another owner (from a different bldg.) We came to the same conclusion. Farang owners are every bit as indifferent as Thai ones. They come here to holiday - full stop. So it's got to be made really easy for them to give input. The answer would be a Website which also enables owners to do absentee voting via the website. A website could give agendas, explanations, etc. for those who are interested as well as budget updates and condo events. People could debate issues on a thread or something. And, best of all, no one could ever again complain that they had been denied a voice in what goes on. It would need the cooperation of the Board and JPM and a few people willing to create and monitor.

I'd like to hear more from jbaldwin on this subject. How did they get started & how is it working out?

I beleive that the single most important way of getting falang co-owners interested in the operation of a condo is to hold the AGM in January, when the largest number of owners are likely to be here. One of the problems I have with the new Condo Act is the linkage between accounts and the AGM. As audited accounts must be submitted to the AGM, I think most condo will have AGM's in March or April in future, which will restrict the falang attendance. We have had a quorum to each of our AGM's (under the old rule of 33%) but I do not think we would have done as if the AGM was not held in peak season.

I also strongly disagree with some of the posts that oppose that lowering of the level of quorum. Many condos find it difficult to get 33% atendance at meeting. In the past this meant that they could not increase condo fees. I think many condos suffer from a lack of maintenance due to a lack of funds and there was no solution unless a meeting got a quorum. Also when in place a Committee could not be removed without a meeting with a quorum.

We are a five year old condo but are on the same site as another development built 10 years earlier. Initially the (thai) developer acted as the managment company and JPM. However, early on they arranged a meeting and set up a committee, which was all falang except the developer. There was then some gradual pressure from the Committee over how the condo should be run. For example, the developer suggested that the Committee should meet every 6 month but we suggested monthly. We than tried to get agreements on limits on what the management could spend with prior approval of the Committee and also to set up separate bank accounts (previously co-owners money was paid into the developers company bank account). This type of pressure together with a backlog of maintainance work on the older condo, lead the developer to resign as manager. We then appointed a major thai owned property manager IRM. Their performance was unacceptable and the Committee terminated their contract after 15 months. They were replaced by ESC, a falang owned business based in Pattaya who have now been managers for nearly two years.

It still takes a lot of work from the Committee to try to maintain stardards and there have been aspects of our managers preformance which has not been good. However, for a falang committee the ability to be able to raise concerns with locally based falang senior management, who are committed to maintain stardards is a total contrast to trying to get Bangkok based Thai management to deal with any of the concernswe raised.

[ripley]

I also strongly disagree with some of the posts that oppose that lowering of the level of quorum. Many condos find it difficult to get 33% atendance at meeting. In the past this meant that they could not increase condo fees. I think many condos suffer from a lack of maintenance due to a lack of funds and there was no solution unless a meeting got a quorum. Also when in place a Committee could not be removed without a meeting with a quorum

Tho I know that achieving a quorum is difficult, I don't think that it's in the best interests of the owners to lower it. Remember that a low quorum favours the rascals just as much as it favours the good guys. Actually - now that I read that over I realize that the reverse is true! The high quorum also sabotages good stuff and lets the scoundrels skip away.

I placed a lot of hope in the idea of a website which also enables voting. You mentioned you have a website - does it enable voting? has it helped get your numbers up? Please tell more about this.

Incidentally, ECM messed up big time with us. Glad to hear that they may have got their act together.

[jojothai]

This topic overlaps with other topics raised concerning the new condo act.

I have problems with the content in the new act section 18/1 and would be grateful for any help.

Can you please look at discussion on

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Condominium-...08-t194689.html

regards

Jojothai