Thai Troops Enter Disputed Territory On Thai-cambodian Border

[frankman]

Interesting to see how this "goverment" divert attention fom traffic(mass transportation), poverty and so many IMPORTANT{!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!} issues for the thai piople, to something, nationalistic as the themple-kindergarden-birthday. People are hungery here, wannabees politcans. START TO WORK FOF THE THAIS. The temle can wait. It sits there long enough! Sorry for my spelling. It's not my mothertung.

[blaze]

Interesting to see how this "goverment" divert attention fom traffic(mass transportation), poverty and so many IMPORTANT{!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!} issues for the thai piople, to something, nationalistic as the themple-kindergarden-birthday. People are hungery here, wannabees politcans. START TO WORK FOF THE THAIS. The temle can wait. It sits there long enough! Sorry for my spelling. It's not my mothertung.

The 'government' created this diversion? The same government that was being accused by the Dems and the PAD for being soft on the issue? Gimme a break. Don't you know why this issue was 'created'? Has it occurred that this could have been all designed to incite an incident that would invite the invocation of martial law? Consider that the role of the army is numero uno to protect 'the nation'- not do the governments bidding- (this was made very clear shortly before the most recent coup). The government has found itself between a rock and a hard place- either be seen as caving in to a foreign power- or assume an irridentist position which they don't genuinely want to pursue- given the can of worms that could be opened. They have, sadly, chosen the latter.

[xenophon]

Déjà vu all over again ….

Sound familiar?

In 1907, France (the colonial ruler of Laos), and Thailand (then known as Siam), signed a border treaty which later caused a dispute over the ownership of some border villages. Shooting broke out in 1984 over possession of three villages.

Fighting broke out in December of 1987 in a dispute over land claimed by Laos, which considered the territory as part of the Laotian Botèn District in Xaignabouri and by Thailand as part of Chat Trakan District in Phitsanulok Province.

Over 1,000 troops died before a cease-fire was put in place.

Result of the conflict: Despite vastly superior forces, the Thais failed to dislodge the small Lao force. The Thais eventually gave up the apparently pointless conflict after heavy casualties and repeated failures to capture Hill 1428.

Both sides agreed in a ceasefire (1988) to abide by the Franco-Siamese treaties, which the Lao had supported and the Thais disputed initially. However, Thailand still occasionally complains about the fairness of these treaties.

Total Casualties: Approximately 1,000 for both sides

Major difference to current Cambodian border spat: Thailand enjoyed an alliance with the United States, while Laos was a close ally of Vietnam and the Soviet Union.

Sources: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/latoc.html, The Land Boundaries of Indochina: Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam Ronald Bruce, http://www.historyguy.com/thai_laos_border_war_87.html

[Moonrakers]

Somebody asked "What does it matter?" Well, it matters, just let your neighbor decide to move his fence or wall onto your property. Believe me, it starts to matter.

This certainly doesn't matter to me, but it sure seems to matter to Thai people and Cambodians.

And what about the Falklands conflict for example which, asides from "Strategic" purposes are a group of sparse Islands which have a higher population of sheep than people.

Many slated thatcher for going to war with Argentina over the Falklands, yet what was she supposed to do? Allow the Argie's to simply take over to make their then president look good? (The cause of the Falklands conflict is quite interesting)

Boundries are drawn and are strictly adhered to for a reason: Give an inch and they may take a mile.

The thing is though that the temple has been 'shared' by both countries for so long and without any conflict (That I know of). Yet now and out of the blue, because the actions of a certain PM and his cronies things get heated. And surely even sunrise07 cannot defend the fact that this was caused by Samak and his buddies.

At most I think (Hope) that this may become a skirmish, although in this case even the TOP BOSS (You know who I mean) may be powerless here.

[thaigene2]

I thought the Victory Monument in BKK was reference to the Thais who died in WW1. Apparently Thailand was a combatant? Could be wrong..

In checking the historical validity of the Thai movie, First Flight, I found this article on Thailand's participation in WWI:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/thailand.htm

It confirms a monument in Bangkok lists the names of Thai dead in WWI. Perhaps it is a different monument?

thanks for that link - It is very good for this board when someone is helpful with information such as this

A war memorial was erected in honour of the troops and stands in Sanam Luang park in Bangkok. Inscribed are the names of the 19 soldiers killed in action on the Western Front.

Yes thanks indeed. I still think the Victory Monument regards WW1. As I say maby that's wrong, but your post reinforces my previous one. I'd like to get a closer look at the Monumnet (I did years ago) but you know how dangerous it is to try to get up close to that thing!! I've never seen anyone run across the road to it!

[Old Man River]

I thought the Victory Monument in BKK was reference to the Thais who died in WW1. Apparently Thailand was a combatant? Could be wrong..

In checking the historical validity of the Thai movie, First Flight, I found this article on Thailand's participation in WWI:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/thailand.htm

It confirms a monument in Bangkok lists the names of Thai dead in WWI. Perhaps it is a different monument?

thanks for that link - It is very good for this board when someone is helpful with information such as this

A war memorial was erected in honour of the troops and stands in Sanam Luang park in Bangkok. Inscribed are the names of the 19 soldiers killed in action on the Western Front.

Yes thanks indeed. I still think the Victory Monument regards WW1. As I say maby that's wrong, but your post reinforces my previous one. I'd like to get a closer look at the Monumnet (I did years ago) but you know how dangerous it is to try to get up close to that thing!! I've never seen anyone run across the road to it!

The article below gives the background on the Victory Monument and how it is related to a war fought between Thailand and France over the border with Cambodia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Monument_(Bangkok)

[Old Man River]

I have a Thai friend who takes this situation VERY seriously. He is an educated Thai who speaks English complete with slang expressions. I mention that to dispel the idea that maybe there was any misunderstanding. He says the situation is very tense and that fighting could easily break out. He also says that Thailand DOES have a legitimate claim on part of that temple land. He reinforces his point by telling me to just look at the map and to think in logical terms. He also says that Thaksin has a financial interest in the area and most of that interest lays in Cambodia itself.

Your friend is correct on all three counts.

Hi

Sorry but in the original legal proccedings back around 1910 ish the judgement in favour of Combodia confirms that the matter was known to the thai authories at the highest level and therfore the thai effort to try to claim they were ignorant of the matter by passing the blame onto a thia junor administrator for failing to bring the matter to his superiors attention at the relevent time were dismissed.

Roy gsd

I posted the link to the article below a few pages back. You will find it useful to give you some history into the current conflict.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7507425.stm

[Farma]

So what exactly is the disputed land?

Is it the area from the chopper pads over the stony flats across the stream up to the start of the temple steps or does it start at the stream?

[sriracha john]

the build-up continues even as talks begin...

Thailand, Cambodia border dispute talks underway as reinforcements grow

The opening of the ASEAN meet was meant to be a time of celebration of accomplishment and possibility as Thailand moves into the chairmanship of the organisation later this week. *which will be interesting given their rather isolated anti-Aung San Su Kyi position*

I think it's a leap to say the government position is 'anti-Aung San Suu Kyi'. It's more like not wanting to get involved in their neighbour's domestic political affairs. As far as I know no one in the Thai government has publicly criticised or condemned ASSK.

presuming the Prime Minister represents the government...

a sampling from the Samak thread....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2097824

if it's not anti-..... it sure the heck isn't pro-

Suppression of activists in Burma normal: Samak

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej Sunday described Burmese leader Senior General Than Shwe as being religious person and killings and suppressions in the neighbouring country were "normal' things.

Thai PM says Myanmar's Suu Kyi detention is "OK"

BANGKOK - Thailand has no problem with the prolonged house arrest in Myanmar of opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej said on Wednesday.

Thai PM Endorses Burmese Junta's Ban against Suu Kyi

The Thai prime minister endorsed the Burmese junta's barring opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi from future general elections.

Prime Minister and Defense Minister Samak Sundaravej led Burmese Prime Minister General Thein Sein on a ceremonial inspection of the troops, a gesture extended to welcome his Burmese counterpart

[sabaijai]

the build-up continues even as talks begin...

Thailand, Cambodia border dispute talks underway as reinforcements grow

The opening of the ASEAN meet was meant to be a time of celebration of accomplishment and possibility as Thailand moves into the chairmanship of the organisation later this week. *which will be interesting given their rather isolated anti-Aung San Su Kyi position*

I think it's a leap to say the government position is 'anti-Aung San Suu Kyi'. It's more like not wanting to get involved in their neighbour's domestic political affairs. As far as I know no one in the Thai government has publicly criticised or condemned ASSK.

presuming the Prime Minister represents the government...

a sampling from the Samak thread....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2097824

if it's not anti-..... it sure the heck isn't pro-

Suppression of activists in Burma normal: Samak

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej Sunday described Burmese leader Senior General Than Shwe as being religious person and killings and suppressions in the neighbouring country were "normal' things.

Thai PM says Myanmar's Suu Kyi detention is "OK"

BANGKOK - Thailand has no problem with the prolonged house arrest in Myanmar of opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej said on Wednesday.

Thai PM Endorses Burmese Junta's Ban against Suu Kyi

The Thai prime minister endorsed the Burmese junta's barring opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi from future general elections.

Prime Minister and Defense Minister Samak Sundaravej led Burmese Prime Minister General Thein Sein on a ceremonial inspection of the troops, a gesture extended to welcome his Burmese counterpart

Agreed.

[Nampeung]

And Cambodia...

[sabaijai]

I have a Thai friend who takes this situation VERY seriously. He is an educated Thai who speaks English complete with slang expressions. I mention that to dispel the idea that maybe there was any misunderstanding. He says the situation is very tense and that fighting could easily break out. He also says that Thailand DOES have a legitimate claim on part of that temple land. He reinforces his point by telling me to just look at the map and to think in logical terms. He also says that Thaksin has a financial interest in the area and most of that interest lays in Cambodia itself.

Your friend is correct on all three counts.

Hi

Sorry but in the original legal proccedings back around 1910 ish the judgement in favour of Combodia confirms that the matter was known to the thai authories at the highest level and therfore the thai effort to try to claim they were ignorant of the matter by passing the blame onto a thia junor administrator for failing to bring the matter to his superiors attention at the relevent time were dismissed.

Roy gsd

I posted the link to the article below a few pages back. You will find it useful to give you some history into the current conflict.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7507425.stm

One of the few well-researched articles I've seen in the current press, Western or Thai, on this topic.

[sriracha john]

Temple issue bogged

Legal matters 'need resolving' as troops told to stay calm

Thailand and Cambodia yesterday failed to resolve a military stand-off at their border, due to legal constraints, the heads of the two countries' delegations said following a lengthy meeting.

"We both have legal problems of which we have informed our seniors to discuss," said Thai supreme commander General Boonsrang Niumpradit, who led the Thai delegation on behalf of premier Samak Sundaravej, who is also defence minister.

Boonsrang said both sides would report the problems to their respective governments.

Cambodian Deputy Premier and Defence Minister General Tea Banh, who led the Cambodian delegation, said both sides had agreed to ease tensions and avoid violence.

Delegates yesterday spent nearly eight hours in closed-door meetings in Aranyaprathet to try to resolve the military stand-off, which started several days ago as a result of a border dispute near the 11th-century Preah Vihear Temple.

Thousands of Thai and Cambodian troops are now stationed around a small Buddhist pagoda on the disputed land on a mountain slope leading to Preah Vihear.

Cambodia recently got approval from Unesco's World Heritage Committee to list Preah Vihear as a World Heritage site, causing anger among nationalist Thais.

Both Boonsrang and General Tea Banh are chairmen of the Thai-Cambodian General Border Committee (GBC).

Tea Banh told a press conference yesterday that both sides had reached agreement on several points during the lengthy consultation, but there were legal constraints, so the GBC could not commence legally.

He said he wished the problem would soon end smoothly and was happy with results of the consultation.

Boonsrang said both sides had agreed troops would stay in their positions but that neither side would use force.

The Thai supreme commander said the consultation was productive, even though there was no practical solution as of yesterday.

Other senior Thai officials at the consultation session included Army chief General Anupong Paochinda and Foreign Affairs permanent secretary Virasakdi Futrakul.

Both countries have reportedly deployed about 4,000 troops to the disputed 4.6-square-kilometre plot of land near Preah Vihear.

The border spat coincided with the annual meeting of Asean foreign ministers in Singapore this week.

Cambodia also tried to use the Asean ministerial meeting as a mechanism to defuse the stand-off, but Thailand rejected the effort, saying the conflict should be approached bilaterally.

Singaporean Foreign Minister George Yeo urged Cambodia and Thailand to exercise the utmost restraint while finding a peaceful solution to the row.

"We urge both sides to resolve this issue amicably, in the spirit of Asean solidarity and good neighbourliness," Yeo said prior to the Thai-Cambodian consultation.

By The Nation, AFP / July 22, 2008

[sriracha john]

ASEAN offers to mediate in temple crisis

The Association of Southeast Asian Nations has offered its facilities if Thailand and Cambodia fail to resolve their dispute over the Hindu temple of Preah Vihear, Singapore's Foreign Minister George Yeo said.

In a statement on the border stand-off between the two Asean members, Yeo said the regional grouping had decided to lend support to find an early resolution to the issue. The stand-off was raised during a working dinner here on Sunday night, prior to the formal meeting of the group's foreign ministers.

"We urged both sides to exercise utmost restraint and resolve this issue amicably, in the spirit of Asean solidarity and good neighborliness. We hope the General Border Commission (GBC) between Thailand and Cambodia, which will be meeting on Monday, and other bilateral talks, will find a way to defuse the situation," Yeo said.

Phnom Penh has also informed the United Nations Security Council of the situation, Yeo said. "Cambodia has informed the UN Security Council of its position because this matter has hit the international headlines. It's for information," the Singapore minister who chaired the meeting told reporters.

Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong said the situation had escalated dangerously, with troops from both sides facing off on disputed territory near the temple.

"ASEAN cannot stand idly by without damaging its credibility," Lee said in his address to the opening of the ASEAN ministerial meeting.

ASEAN will ask Indonesia to set up a contact group to facilitate talks, according to Indonesian Foreign Minister Hassan Wirajuda.

Thailand asked current ASEAN chair Singapore for a chance to put its side of the story, since Cambodia had already kept the grouping and the UN informed on its view of the stand-off.

"They [Cambodia] briefed the meeting from their point of view and we briefed from ours. We did not make any argument or judgement on who is right or wrong," said Deputy Prime Minister Sahas Banditkul, who led the Thai delegation to the ASEAN meeting. *because the criminal Foreign Minister had been tossed in the trashcan*

In 1962 the International Court of Justice ruled that Preah Vihear is under Cambodian sovereignty. The 11th-century Hindu temple and its surrounding area became the centre of controversy when Thais protested over its inscription as a World Heritage site. The Thai army moved troops to the border while Cambodia responded likewise and accused Thailand of encroachment on its territory.

"I made clear to the meeting that the area is our territory. There is no overlapping area from our point of view," Sahas said.

- The Nation

[Plus]

There was an article in The Nation by Pridiyathorn where he talked in detail about the temple issuse, it was the first part in the series and covered the ground before the new government took over.

Some information has never been disclosed before.

He says that Cambodians argued that the temple was designed to enter via climbing the cliff and Thai entrance was a later addition, they argued that the temple was built according to Buddhist principles and is a part of "five temples on cliffs" design or something.

If they still maintain the same stand it's easy to see why the issue is never going to be resolved - their basic premise is completely opposite to that of Thais, and the rest of the world, apparently.

Previous government negotiating team opposed the unilitateral listing till the very end, btw, including a walkout from talks in the middle of January.

Let's wait and see what he has to say about Noppadon's change of strategy, but for now it looks like the current government has been caught bending over to Cambodians and is suffering the consequences.

There's nothing in it to gain, they are not creating this issue to divert public attention. They'd rather create some other issue to make it go away.

[baanthale]

There was an article in The Nation by Pridiyathorn where he talked in detail about the temple issuse, it was the first part in the series and covered the ground before the new government took over.

Some information has never been disclosed before.

He says that Cambodians argued that the temple was designed to enter via climbing the cliff and Thai entrance was a later addition, they argued that the temple was built according to Buddhist principles and is a part of "five temples on cliffs" design or something.

If they still maintain the same stand it's easy to see why the issue is never going to be resolved - their basic premise is completely opposite to that of Thais, and the rest of the world, apparently.

Previous government negotiating team opposed the unilitateral listing till the very end, btw, including a walkout from talks in the middle of January.

Let's wait and see what he has to say about Noppadon's change of strategy, but for now it looks like the current government has been caught bending over to Cambodians and is suffering the consequences.

There's nothing in it to gain, they are not creating this issue to divert public attention. They'd rather create some other issue to make it go away.

Yeah, the nation tells the world the facts

[Plus]

Sure, the former central bank governor and finance minister just makes this stuff up. He's got nothing better to do than print outright lies.

[baanthale]

Sure, the former central bank governor and finance minister just makes this stuff up. He's got nothing better to do than print outright lies.

No, I'm sure he tells things like he sees them, (as the former finance minister in a non elected government) But as a balance to that, there is also other opinions, even if they are not linked here every other second

[A_Traveller]

The access point is one to remember, since the temple was designed, originally, pre Hindu 'consecration' to be a place for, primarily, Royal commune with the Gods, and the access was a rite of passage, not a quick saunter down the road. Even as the religion changed that premise remained.

Regards

[Plus]

Sure, the former central bank governor and finance minister just makes this stuff up. He's got nothing better to do than print outright lies.

No, I'm sure he tells things like he sees them, (as the former finance minister in a non elected government)

Or a former Central Banker personally appointed by Thaksin. He mentioned FACTS, I'm not talking about his opinions.

[baanthale]

Sure, the former central bank governor and finance minister just makes this stuff up. He's got nothing better to do than print outright lies.

No, I'm sure he tells things like he sees them, (as the former finance minister in a non elected government)

Or a former Central Banker personally appointed by Thaksin. He mentioned FACTS, I'm not talking about his opinions.

And I'm telling you again, there is NO FACTS in this tempel story as long as there is heavy disagrements on the matter, just opinions! Is it hard to understand that the "FACTS" will be different depending on who you ask! And the opinion on that the government is "bending over", is that included in the "facts"? How would you like this government to clear this mess up? On one hand they are to flat, next they are to hard?! All this because a handfull of people want to do the same mistake they already did 2006! Nevermind, i am out.

[Plus]

There's a fact for you - Thai negotiating team didn't accept Cambodian maps and proposals and quit the joint committee negotiating the issue. That was in January this year, prior to Noppadon taking over.

As for bending over, Pridiyathorn didn't say that, here's a quote from my earlier post:

"Let's wait and see what he has to say about Noppadon's change of strategy, but for now it looks like the current government has been caught bending over to Cambodians.."

Another fact - Noppadon replaced Thai chief negotiator

Result - Noppadon supported Cambodian bid unconditionally and accepted their maps.

Missing details will hopefully emerge next Monday.

[baanthale]

There's a fact for you - Thai negotiating team didn't accept Cambodian maps and proposals and quit the joint committee negotiating the issue. That was in January this year, prior to Noppadon taking over.

So thats how you want them to solve the issues now! Skip all negotiations and start up the tanks! Sure, maybe they should try out some of all the new wapons they have in stock since the junta, but you know, it's 2008 now, there may be other solutions.

Right hand nationalistic drivel, wiped up by a few with big wigs, to cover and hide the real reasons they have to get rid of elected government!

[Old Man River]

Below is a link to a good article in this morning's BP by William Roth. Roth is an attorney from the US who teaches at Chula. He gives a good overview on the history of this conflict.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/220708_News/22Jul2008_news016.php

[baanthale]

Below is a link to a good article in this morning's BP by William Roth. Roth is an attorney from the US who teaches at Chula. He gives a good overview on the history of this conflict.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/220708_News/22Jul2008_news016.php

Honestly, it was a quite good article, but after all, it's only one individuals opinion!

[samran]

Sure, the former central bank governor and finance minister just makes this stuff up. He's got nothing better to do than print outright lies.

No, I'm sure he tells things like he sees them, (as the former finance minister in a non elected government)

Or a former Central Banker personally appointed by Thaksin. He mentioned FACTS, I'm not talking about his opinions.

I don't think you can really really question his objectivity or his intelligence of the man. He has stuck it to both sides of politics in his time, and managed to remain one of the more independent BOT governors at a time when Thaksin was trying to meddle in everything.

All very funny, as his son, ML Nattakorn (Bluem) Devakul in his 'anchorman' pieces in the BKK post seemed to come across as a Thaksin cheerleader if I've ever seen one!!

I'll take great pleasure in not voting for K.Bluem in the forthcoming BKK govenor elections!!

[hammered]

One easily confirmable fact that needs to be cleared up is did the communique get signed on June 18 after the publicised cabinet meeting or did it get signed on May 22, as the UN have mentioned, well before the cabinet meeting.

[Nampeung]

Cambodia Seeks UN Intervention

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h6tp2tO..._HH52QD922R1E00

[Old Man River]

Below is a link to a good article in this morning's BP by William Roth. Roth is an attorney from the US who teaches at Chula. He gives a good overview on the history of this conflict.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/220708_News/22Jul2008_news016.php

Honestly, it was a quite good article, but after all, it's only one individuals opinion!

Fair enough, but the big difference between this article and the one in the other thread is that Roth is known. You can call him up and discuss this. In the other thread, someone you don't know posted a link to a blog by someone you also don't know about the opinion of, again, someone you don't know. Are you starting to see the difference? Let's stick with credible sources.

[thaigene2]

Is anyone in any doubt that this is simply a wind-up by the PAD? Look at all the foaming PAD-supporters posting here. Does anyone else care about this place? Nope.

That's why the Cambodians are reacting so pro-actively (UN Sec Council etc). They're scared the real power in this country (behind the PAD) will make a move against them to get at Samak and TRT/PPP. Why else would Cambodia react as they have? They'd just stay quiet, right?