Thai Troops Enter Disputed Territory On Thai-cambodian Border

[sriracha john]

New Thai Foreign Minister attends briefing on temple row with Cambodia

BANGKOK, July 27 (TNA) - Admittedly facing an uphill task as Thailand is enveloped in a diplomatic and military crisis with neighbouring Cambodia, newly appointed Foreign Minister Tej Bunnag attended a briefing Sunday intended to bring him up to speed for Monday's meeting with his Cambodian counterpart Hor Namhongin in Siem Reap which will focus on the historic Preah Vihear temple and its environs.

Mr. Tej returned from Sweden before dawn Sunday, saying he would attend a briefing at the foreign ministry before having an audience with His Majesty the King at the palace in the evening for a customary swearing-in ceremony before officially taking up his post.

The seasoned diplomat was appointed Foreign Minister by Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej on Saturday.

So far, he said he had not yet talked to Mr. Samak.

The most urgent task for the new Foreign Minister is to hold official talks with his Cambodian counterpart Hor Namhong on Monday in the Cambodian province of Siem Reap regarding the 4.6-square-kilometre contested area at Preah Vihear temple, which gained a World Heritage site listing from UNESCO for the Cambodian government earlier this month.

Both countries have reinforced their troops along the common border, especially near the 11th century temple, after the UNESCO listing of the temple as the World Heritage site, causing tensions and depressing trade and tourism between the two countries which are members of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).

Meanwhile, a small group of activists who have been holding a vigil near the ancient temple in a bid to protect Thailand's sovereignty have moved further inside Thailand to allow Thai soldiers to patrol the border more conveniently.

Their decision to move to a Thai government outpost, the Sisaket bush fire control station, came after a woman who was earlier briefly detained by Cambodian soldiers guarding the temple, became ill and was sent to a provincial hospital for treatment.

The sick woman along with a man and a Buddhist monk earlier this month crossed the border intending to raise the Thai national flag atop the ancient Hindu edifice. They were captured but were released by the Cambodian troops a few hours later.

[oldfaht]

Then there's the whole issue of the alleged 'trade' of KPV that Noppadon arranged in exchange for Thaksin's new empire in southern Cambodia, an issue of concern to loyal PPP members as well as PAD and a host of independents who disapprove of corruption on such a scale.

It's true there are many vested interests, but it's hardly as simple as PAD vs PPP, and in fact the battle for KPV started before the PAD or the PPP even existed. I'd say it's one of the more complex diplomatic controversies to crop up in SE Asia in years.

Sorry to slightly disagree here. It appears complicated when you read all the different positions on this issue, but there is actually only one binding document on the issue - the judgement of 1962 itself.

Quote:

"The claim is as it is formulated in Cambodia's application is not to return the temple as such, but rather to souvereignty over the portion of territory in which the temple is situated."

And given the whole argumentation of this judgement - this is the Annex I map.

This debate and discussion on this issue is very interesting. And i tend to agree that given the watershed and the topographical condition the whole temple should have been part of Thailand. Also the reason that this temple has been built by a Khmer culture is a rather chauvinist argument as the nation state Cambodia does not equal ancient Khmer empires.

Nevertheless - as the judgement argues - Thailand has de facto accepted the French map, has had many opportunities to protest, was even invited to comment, and has failed to do so.

What is done is done - there is a legally binding judgement on this issue. All Thai or Cambidian nationalism aside - this issue has been done with for over 40 years.

If you read about Nopadol's negotiations - he in fact has done the best deal that Thailand can expect, given the '62 judgement. What Thailand does now is in direct violation to the '62 judgement, and international law. Instead of sending troops - Thailand should go to court again, if it feels to have been treated unfairly, and believes it has enough evidence to reach a different judgement.

Because regardless of internal political problems and nationalist rabblerousing by opponents of the government - the court is the only place where countries that wish to be accepted as developed nations do handle those issues.

[sriracha john]

New Thai Foreign Minister to lead talks over temple dispute

Bangkok: A retired career diplomat was appointed Thai Foreign Minister yesterday in time to lead fresh talks with Cambodia over a bitter border dispute.

Tej Bunnag is widely considered a “professional choice” following the resignation of his successor Noppadon Pattama earlier this month, according to local reports.

Noppadon, the former lawyer for controversial former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, became tripped up by appearing to give ground to Cambodia in exchange, it is rumoured, favours for his old boss.

Tej Bunnag, 65, educated at Malvern College and Cambridge University in Britain, has served as ambassador to China, France, the UN and the US. The countries are holding urgent talks tomorrow in Siem Reap in a bid to defuse a row over joint claims to land adjoining an ancient Hindu temple on their border that threatens to escalate out of control.

Preah Vihear, an 11th-century Hindu temple built on a 525-metre- high cliff on the Dongrak mountain range that defines the Thai- Cambodian border, has been the cause of a border conflict between Thailand and Cambodia for decades. The ancient spat got a fresh start earlier this month when UNESCO agreed to list Preah Vihear as a World Heritage Site. The inscription excluded the 4.6sq km of disputed territory, and Thailand protested the listing.

Noppadon, who first backed the Cambodian proposal and then reversed his position, was forced to resign after failing to block the listing of Preah Vihear. The spat escalated from a diplomatic row to a potential military conflict last week, when three Thais were detained for entering the disputed temple territory.

Although the three were quickly released, troops were called in from both sides to protect their border. While Cambodia first appealed to the ASEAN and then the UN Security Council to get involved in the border standoff, both bodies have urged the two countries to settle the matter bilaterally. A bilateral meeting tomorrow between Cambodian Defence Minister Teah Banh and General Boonsrang Niempradit, Supreme Commander of the Thai Army, in Sa Kaeo province, Thailand, 270km east of Bangkok, failed to find a quick fix to the joint claims on the temple’s surrounding area.

The border spat has come at a sensitive time politically for both Cambodia and Thailand. Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen faces a parliamentary election today, and Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej is under mounting pressure to resign, in part over his government’s alleged mishandling of the Preah Vihear affair.

– DPA

[sabaijai]

Then there's the whole issue of the alleged 'trade' of KPV that Noppadon arranged in exchange for Thaksin's new empire in southern Cambodia, an issue of concern to loyal PPP members as well as PAD and a host of independents who disapprove of corruption on such a scale.

It's true there are many vested interests, but it's hardly as simple as PAD vs PPP, and in fact the battle for KPV started before the PAD or the PPP even existed. I'd say it's one of the more complex diplomatic controversies to crop up in SE Asia in years.

Sorry to slightly disagree here. It appears complicated when you read all the different positions on this issue, but there is actually only one binding document on the issue - the judgement of 1962 itself.

Quote:

"The claim is as it is formulated in Cambodia's application is not to return the temple as such, but rather to souvereignty over the portion of territory in which the temple is situated."

And given the whole argumentation of this judgement - this is the Annex I map.

This debate and discussion on this issue is very interesting. And i tend to agree that given the watershed and the topographical condition the whole temple should have been part of Thailand. Also the reason that this temple has been built by a Khmer culture is a rather chauvinist argument as the nation state Cambodia does not equal ancient Khmer empires.

Nevertheless - as the judgement argues - Thailand has de facto accepted the French map, has had many opportunities to protest, was even invited to comment, and has failed to do so.

What is done is done - there is a legally binding judgement on this issue. All Thai or Cambidian nationalism aside - this issue has been done with for over 40 years.

If you read about Nopadol's negotiations - he in fact has done the best deal that Thailand can expect, given the '62 judgement. What Thailand does now is in direct violation to the '62 judgement, and international law. Instead of sending troops - Thailand should go to court again, if it feels to have been treated unfairly, and believes it has enough evidence to reach a different judgement.

Because regardless of internal political problems and nationalist rabblerousing by opponents of the government - the court is the only place where countries that wish to be accepted as developed nations do handle those issues.

A fair rendering of the facts, but I would disagree that the ICJ decision is cut and dried.

Even if one does find the ruling binding and fair, there's still the issue of that 4.6-sq-km piece not ruled upon by the ICJ. It's separate from the piece where the main sanctuary stands, as I understand it, encompassing the foreground to the main sanctuary. Somewhere in the Thai print media I've seen a map of disuputed vs undisputed territories at the site, but I have no idea how accurate it might have been.

The border between Siam and French Indochina was conceptually fixed during a 1904 French-Siamese Border Commission conference in which it was agreed that the demarcation line was to be placed at the escarpment edge, placing the temple unequivocally in Siam. Three years later, when French surveyors delivered their own map to Bangkok (drawn independently, in violation of French-Siamese Border Commission agreements), the temple was shown on the French side, even though it could only be entered from Thailand. When the French drew the 1907 map, the only way to scale the 500m, sheer escarpment from the Cambodian side was via abseiling straight up from the flat plains in Cambodia below. Rather peculiar.

How binding are ICJ rulings? Decisions on border disputes in Africa and the Middle East have been ignored repeatedly. Argentina refused to accept an ICJ ruling that gave Beagle Channel islands to Chile. The US government has ignored a couple of ICJ rulings (maybe more, I only can think of two cases offhand), and two years ago the US Supreme Court ruled that ICJ case outcomes weren't binding when they clashed with US state court decisions. Of course it would be easier to send UN troops to Thailand than it would be to send them to the USA.

There is no appeal process for ICJ decisions ocne they are finalised. And there is only one method of enforcement: The ICJ has the option of reporting Thailand and/or Cambodia to the UN Security Council.

To do that they'll have to deal with that disputed 4.6-sq-km patch first. With both France and ICJ failing to recognise the precedent set by the original 1904 agreement, it's possible UN members would become embroiled in a drawn-out debate. It could be years before anything was decided to the point where any disciplinary action at all was possible. And if just one of the five veto-wielding members of the Security Council were to vote against intervention, all further action would be effectively blocked.

Another issue here is that Thailand, as far as I know, isn't claiming to dispute the ICJ ruling. Rather it's claiming that Cambodians have built on territory belonging to Thailand. So ICJ officials will have to untie that knot before they can make a report to the UN. Perhaps Cambodia and Thailand could request that the ICJ create a separate ruling on the disuputed territory.

There doesn't seem to be any easy way out of this one.

[Nampeung]

Very clearly put Oldfaht

Asia-Pacific News

Cambodia alcohol dry during border dispute

Jul 26, 2008, 11:48 GMT

Phnom Penh - Cambodian troops on the border with Thailand had been prohibited alcohol during a border dispute surrounding an 11th century temple, officials and local media said Saturday.

Officials said alcohol had been banned at the Preah Vihear temple, around 300 kilometres north of the capital, for nearly a week, but that ban would stay in place until tensions ease.

A national ban on alcohol is in place over the weekend owing to national elections, but officials said that had nothing to do with the temple ban and that the temple ban was indefinite.

'We can't drink. There is no rice wine for sale, this is true,' an officer at the border who declined to be named said by telephone. 'The government ordered no mistakes or problems.'

The Cambodian government has said it does not want problems or accidental gun fire during the elections, due Sunday, nor during scheduled bilateral talks with Thailand scheduled Monday, fearing it could escalate tensions which began with a Thai troop buildup over the temple grounds a fortnight earlier.

[Nampeung]

Cambodia's ruling party claims victory in polls

11 minutes ago

PHNOM PENH (AFP) — The ruling Cambodian People's Party on Sunday claimed victory in general elections, setting the stage for Prime Minister Hun Sen to extend his 23-year grip on power.

"We won the election," party spokesman Khieu Kanharith told AFP. "We are leading in most of the provinces."

He added that the party was not yet sure of its margin of victory, as ballots were still being counted.

Earlier Khieu Kanharith had predicted the party would win 80 of the 123 seats in parliament, just shy of a two-thirds majority, as the party siphoned away votes from the opposition Sam Rainsy Party and royalist Funcinpec.

Official results from Cambodia's National Election Committee are not expected until next month.

The country's 15,000 polling stations opened for eight hours of balloting, conducted under the eyes of 17,000 domestic and international observers. More than eight million people were registered to vote.

Hun Sen 's CPP says it hopes to expand its majority in parliament and form a single-party government.

After the 2003 elections, Cambodia was plunged into a year of political deadlock amid talks over a coalition government with Funcinpec.

But under new rules, the party needs just a simple majority to form a government, instead of the two-thirds needed in the past.

[sriracha john]

it does not want problems or accidental gun fire

good forward thinking...

gun fire is almost always detrimental during peace talks...

[sabaijai]

Hun Sen rides temple to victory

The border dispute with Thailand has fuelled nationalist sentiment, ensuring victory in the Cambodian national elections for Prime Minister Hun Sen, the former Khmer Rouge leader who has already ruled for 23 years.

Phnom Penh (DPA) - Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen , a former communist who has ruled for two decades, won Sunday's election and probably increased his parliamentary majority amidst greater prosperity and a wave of nationalism over the Thailand temple dispute.

Cambodia's ruling Cambodian People's Party (CPP) stamped its dominance in a landslide victory, according to figures broadcast live on state media by the National Election Committee (NEC).

Hun Sen, 56, enjoys growing support as foreign investment creates jobs in the energy, agriculture, tourism and garment industries and he rewards rural voters with new schools and paved roads. The troop buildup along the Thai border stirred up nationalism that gave him a boost heading into the election.

Only the opposition Sam Rainsy Party (SRP) presented any real challenge in the 11-party race, with the big loser being the royalist Funcinpec Party, split by charges of corruption and philandering against sacked former leader Prince Norodom Ranariddh.

The ruling party's victory may lead to more foreign investment. The economic expansion and the standoff with Thailand over disputed land near the 11th-century Preah Vihear temple, now a United Nations' World Heritage Site, have benefited the incumbent government.

cont'd here

[Jai Dee]

Foreign Affairs Minister confident he can resolve Preah Vihear problem

Foreign Affairs Minister Tej Bunnag (เตช บุญนาค) expresses confidence that he can resolve the conflict between Thailand and Cambodia over Preah Vihear without losing the country’s land.

The minister says before traveling to attend a bilateral ministerial meeting between Thailand and Cambodia to discuss the dispute that he will try his best to resolve the matter although he feels concerned. He also says tension at the border will be eased after the meeting.

The new minister suggests that the meeting must discuss the management of the overlapping area at Preah Vehear. As for the withdrawal of troops, Mr Tej says Thailand and Cambodia should withdraw equal military forces from the area.

The minister’s entourage includes 2nd Army Area Commander Lt.Gen.Suchit Sithiprapha (สุจิตร สิทธิประภา), Director-General of the Border Affairs Department Lt.Gen.Niphat Thonglek (นิพัทธ์ ทองเล็ก), and officials from the Royal Thai Survey Department and the National Security Council.

Mr Tej says the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has well prepared information for the meeting.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 28 July 2008

[Jai Dee]

Thailand is ready to talk with Cambodia to resolve differences amicably

Foreign Minister Tej Bunnag (เตช บุนนาค) is leading a Thai delegation to Cambodia for the Thai-Cambodian Foreign Ministers' Meeting in Siem Reap, to discuss the situation in the area adjacent to the Temple of Preah Vihear.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Tharit Charungvat (ธฤต จรุงวัฒน์) says the Thai side is ready to engage with Cambodia on the matter in good faith and in a spirit of good neighbourliness in order to resolve the situation peacefully. He remarks that attempts to bring the bilateral issue to broader frameworks at this stage could complicate the situation and, in turn, could produce undesirable repercussions on the good relations and goodwill between the peoples in both countries.

The meeting is the second round of negotiations between the two countries after the meeting of the General Border Committee on July 21, 2008 in Sa Kaeo Province of Thailand. Mr. Tharit says the Thai side hopes that Cambodia will come to the table with an open mind and good faith. No preconditions should be set for this mnisterial meeting to settle everything by July 28 as the issues involved are complicated in nature. As far as the border issues are concerned, friendly nations should give space and time for authorities concerned to resolve them, he adds.

Regarding Cambodia's allegations that Thailand had committed an act of aggression by encroaching into Cambodia territory, the Foreign Ministry spokesman dismisses the allegations because the area mentioned is within Thailand's territory and sovereignty

The spokesman further notes that over several years, Cambodia had allowed its civilians and over 200 soldiers to move into the area. This action on the part of Cambodia violated the Memorandum of Understanding on the survey and demarcation of the common boundary, signed in June 2000, under which the two countries agreed not to carry out any work resulting in changes to the environment of the frontier zone, pending the survey and demarcation of the common land boundary. The Thai side therefore resorted to diplomatic means in accordance with international practice by making four protests to the Cambodian Government since 2004, but has so far received no response from the latter.

The spokesman reiterates that what Thailand has sought to achieve all along is to ensure that the conditions are as both countries have agreed to under the MoU in order to pave the way for the Thai-Cambodian Joint Boundary Commission to carry out its work.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 28 July 2008

[Plus]

If you read about Nopadol's negotiations - he in fact has done the best deal that Thailand can expect, given the '62 judgement.

The best deal is a joint listing and joint management of the whole site, not just the temple cropped as closely as possible. That was Thai position all along and I expect Tej to continue in that direction. It's a win win for both countries.

[sriracha john]

Thai, Cambodian temple talks foundering says official

Siem Reap, Cambodia - Talks have stalled over border tensions around an ancient temple which has seen the deployment of thousands of Thai and Cambodian troops, Cambodian delegates said Monday, adding that the prognosis for a bilateral solution was not good.

A senior Cambodian official who spoke on condition of anonymity claimed part of the problem for his side was the inexperience of the newly appointed Thai Foreign Minister Tej Bunnag.

"Cambodia is not happy. Neither side is happy," the Cambodian diplomat said. "On the Thai side, the new foreign minister has not enough capacity to talk with the veteran Cambodian Foreign Minister."

Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong has held the post for decades. A seasoned diplomat, he is not known for giving ground.

The two sides of six delegates moved into a third phase of talks late Monday, hours after they had been scheduled to end.

Shortly after the Preah Vihear temple was made a World Heritage Site by UNESCO this month, Thailand moved troops into what it calls a disputed area that Cambodia maintains is its territory.

The 11th-century temple is sacred to Thais and Cambodians but only easily accessible from Thailand. Cambodia closed the border in June, saying it feared trouble after Thai protests.

Both sides have said they would not back down on the issue, which has voter nationalism running high. Cambodia held national elections Sunday, returning the current government with an increased majority, but the Thai government of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej remains under pressure.

Meanwhile troops in Preah Vihear were increasingly restless and a troop buildup continued.

"I am former Khmer Rouge. I am not used to sitting around. I am used to attacking my enemy," said Khun Sarath, 57. "I am ready to fight the Thai invader as soon as the government gives the word."

The Cambodians have said the word will not come and the next step will be mediation at the United Nations if bilateral talks fail. A total alcohol ban is in force around the temple to curb the enthusiasm of fighters like Sarath.

In 2003 an angry mob torched the Thai embassy and some businesses over a false rumour that a Thai actress had claimed another temple, Angkor Wat, was Thai, and Cambodian officials have said they are determined that such a diplomatic disaster will not be repeated.

- DPA

[Meerkat]

If you read about Nopadol's negotiations - he in fact has done the best deal that Thailand can expect, given the '62 judgement.

The best deal is a joint listing and joint management of the whole site, not just the temple cropped as closely as possible. That was Thai position all along and I expect Tej to continue in that direction. It's a win win for both countries.

To say that's the best deal, when Cambodia has already - on multiple occasions - said that they wouldn't do such a deal, is fantastical. You might as well say that the best deal would be for Thailand to list the site on its own: it just wasn't going to happen.

Cambodia has always held the trump card - the Temple itself. The Thai negotiators (the same ones that it's been said were so competent that it was a travesty that Noppadom subsequently sacked their leader) thought they could bluff it out for a larger site, and their bluff was called. Once that happened, the Noppadom deal was a lot better than the one Thailand's been forced into now.

The best thing Tej can do now is try to get the Noppadom plan (or a close imitation of it) put back into play - with cross-party support this time. His perceived political independence goes a long way to help this happen.

[Plus]

They are not going to accept Cambodia's idea that community on the Thai site of the border was irreleant and worthless and the temple was built by and for the people living under the cliff.

It's just not going to happen.

Cambodian "solution" of unilaterally listing over Thailand's objections is not going to work, eventually they will be forced to accept the reality that the joint listing and management is the only way forward.

Unesco has a big problem on their hands now as it is, wait until Thailand goes on diplomatic offensive of its own - support for Thai proposal will be overwhelming.

[Farma]

Troop pullback mulled in temple feud

From correspondents in Siem Reap

July 29, 2008 04:57am

CAMBODIA and Thailand agreed today to consider pulling troops out of disputed land near an ancient temple, but did not commit to any firm steps to end a two-week military standoff.

After about 12 hours of talks, foreign ministers from both countries said they would ask their governments to redeploy the thousands of soldiers stationed around a small patch of land near the 11th century Preah Vihear temple.

The ruins of the Khmer temple, which sits on a mountaintop overlooking the jungle, belong to Cambodia, but the most practical entrance begins at the foot of a mountain in Thailand. Both sides claim some of the surrounding territory.

"We agreed to ask our governments to redeploy the troops," Cambodian foreign minister Hor Namhong said, adding that details would be discussed in future talks.

"We cannot resolve this problem at one meeting. It will require more meetings," he said. "We will exercise maximum restraint and avoid the use of armed force."

For the Thai side, Foreign Minister Tej Bunnag said: "The redeployment will only take place once the Thai government approves."

Neither side pledged any firm goals for moving the troops, and no date was set for their next meeting.

But both countries insisted they would resolve the dispute peacefully, and proposed a series of steps to end the conflict, including a scheme to remove landmines that litter the area so the border could be demarcated.

"Both sides have the will to resolve the problems bilaterally and peacefully," Hor Namhong said.

Cambodian and Thai officials said the meeting today was the first step in what would likely be protracted negotiations to end a dispute that has simmered for decades.

Continued http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0...5003402,00.html

[jimbob]

Cambodian "solution" of unilaterally listing over Thailand's objections is not going to work, eventually they will be forced to accept the reality that the joint listing and management is the only way forward.

Unesco has a big problem on their hands now as it is, wait until Thailand goes on diplomatic offensive of its own - support for Thai proposal will be overwhelming.

Support from who?

So far Thailand has only been noted for its inconsistency and lack of sovereignty over the temple so I don't believe they will be able to generate much sympathy.

Surely the reality is that the unilateral listing is already successful and the Thai goverment has missed the boat?

What leverage do they have to change this?

[Jai Dee]

Secretary to Thai Ambassador in Cambodia said talks tensed over border issues

First Secretary to the Thai Ambassador in Phnom Penh Chaturont Chaiykam (จตุรงค์ ไชยะคำ) revealed yesterday that the bilateral meeting between Thailand and Cambodia to remedy conflicts over the Phear Vihear National Park registration went into informal talks for over 6 hours while awaiting an official statement from new Foreign Affairs Minister Tej Bunnag (เตช บุนนาค).

Mr. Chaturont stated that the talks took a pause during the earlier afternoon as Mr. Tej called on his team for an aside. Most reports pointed to border issues as the main reasons for extended talks.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 July 2008

[Plus]

So far Thailand has only been noted for its inconsistency and lack of sovereignty over the temple so I don't believe they will be able to generate much sympathy.

Surely the reality is that the unilateral listing is already successful and the Thai goverment has missed the boat?

What leverage do they have to change this?

Thailand's leverage is the ability to block access to the site. So far Cambodians play "we don't need you cooperation" game and it's not working, it's not a tourist site anymore, it's a military flash point with possibility of violence breaking out at any moment.

Thailand point is to make it clear that it will never work unless their concerns are addressed.

Have they missed the boat? One idea was refuse to accept Unesco listing and demand a fresh start. I don't know what mechanisms are there in Unesco rule book, but they can certainly make and exception.

Will they get the support? Most certainly, the deal has always been about the whole site, it was sneakily cropped to fit 1962 ruling only a couple of months ago. Thailand can easily drum up academic support for including the staircase and ponds what ever else is there. Once it's open for a debate, Cambodians will have no legs to stand on - they supported listing the whole site themselves, afterall.

Will Thailand be able to see it through? I doubt it, with unstable political situation there's no consistency in anything they do, but doesn't mean they shouldn't try anyway.

[Jai Dee]

Army Commander says military awaiting governments orders to withdraw presence from border

Army Commander General Anupong Paojinda (อนุพงษ์ เผ่าจินดา) revealed early today that the recent Thai-Cambodian bilateral meeting's outcome to reduce military presence cannot yet be put into practice as the military must await official orders from the government. He also commented that he believes the situation has a feasible solution that both nations will be able to agree on.

General Anupong stated that yesterday's bilateral meeting's outcome should help to reduce tension and conflict and improve the situation. The Army Commander continued to say that all citizens of the nation must consider His Majesty the King and their religious fate to remedy problems. He expressed concern for violent incidents occurring throughout the country and said that the military is prepared to assist police if requested.

The commander said that the army's inactivity in recent incidents has been due to legal limitations that do not allow for military intervention.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 July 2008

[Jai Dee]

Thailand, Cambodia agree on border troop adjustments

Thailand and Cambodia have agreed to a troop adjustment in the disputed area near Preah Vihear temple.

In a joint press conference, Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong and his Thai counterpart Tej Bunnag announced both countries would adjust their troop deployments stationed inside and around a pagoda located in the temple complex.

"We agreed to ask our governments to redeploy the troops. We will decide at our next meeting how many troops will stay in the disputed area," Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong told reporters.

"The redeployment will only take place once the Thai government approves," said the Thai Foreign Minister at the end of the meeting at a hotel in Cambodia's Siem Reap province.

The military adjustment would not affect territorial sovereignty and has no implication to future border demarcation.

The announcement came after the two foreign ministers met earlier on Monday, after which their delegations continued discussions until late in the evening. The two sides began their talks around 10.20am.

The meeting was scheduled to end around 4.30pm, but dragged on until around 10pm. Both delegations had to postpone their flights, pending negotitation.

Talks between Thailand's armed forces chief General Boonsrang Niumpradit and Cambodian Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister Tea Banh ended a week ago without resolution.

At least 1,000 soldiers have deployed since July 15 in manifestation of either sides' claim of the 4.6 square km land at the border area.

Further talks will be held to tackle border demarcation in the disputed area and the clearing of landmines in the area.

Both parties also agreed on the need to set up a joint committee to work out the contentious issues, for which cabinet approval would be required from their respective governments.

Thai Foreign Minister Tej said he had informed Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej of the outcome of Monday's talks.

Source: The Nation - 29 July 2008

[jimbob]

Thailand's leverage is the ability to block access to the site

Do you mean from the Thai side, Cambodian side or both?

If they invaded Cambodia there would be war and Thailand would lose all face on the international stage.

Will they get the support? Most certainly, the deal has always been about the whole site, it was sneakily cropped to fit 1962 ruling only a couple of months ago. Thailand can easily drum up academic support for including the staircase and ponds what ever else is there.

Of course they can get academic support from Thai Universities but I mean internationally?

Thailand is looking very bad because of the military border incursions and the international community recognizes Cambodia, not Thailand, as holding sovereignty over the area.

You are right about Thai political stability issues - it means the country has no credibility.

[Plus]

Thailand's leverage is the ability to block access to the site

Do you mean from the Thai side, Cambodian side or both?

Thai side, of course. That's how vast majority of people gets there - through Thailand, even Cambodians themselves.

Will they get the support? Most certainly, the deal has always been about the whole site, it was sneakily cropped to fit 1962 ruling only a couple of months ago. Thailand can easily drum up academic support for including the staircase and ponds what ever else is there.

Of course they can get academic support from Thai Universities but I mean internationally?

Open and guide book, any Internet website, Wikipedia, anything - everyone accepts that the temple complex includes the areas currently left out, areas that are either on Thai side or in disputed territories.

Thailand is looking very bad because of the military border incursions and the international community recognizes Cambodia, not Thailand, as holding sovereignty over the area.

Correction - the temple itself, but not the area.

Thai troops are positioned in disputed territories now, there are no border incursions.

[Old Man River]

Thailand's leverage is the ability to block access to the site

Do you mean from the Thai side, Cambodian side or both?

If they invaded Cambodia there would be war and Thailand would lose all face on the international stage.

Will they get the support? Most certainly, the deal has always been about the whole site, it was sneakily cropped to fit 1962 ruling only a couple of months ago. Thailand can easily drum up academic support for including the staircase and ponds what ever else is there.

Of course they can get academic support from Thai Universities but I mean internationally?

Thailand is looking very bad because of the military border incursions and the international community recognizes Cambodia, not Thailand, as holding sovereignty over the area.

You are right about Thai political stability issues - it means the country has no credibility.

While the international community recognizes Cambodia's interest in the temple and surrounding areas, few in Thailand care about this. This is an issue for Thailand and Cambodia to work out, not any other country. This concerns Thailand and Cambodia only.

[Old Man River]

There is a very good article in today's Bangkok Post on page 18 of the main section (Spotlight) entitled: "The scrap of land on which our future lies." I can't seem to access it to post a link. Perhaps SJ or Jaidee can. It gives a good insight into the Thai side of the negotiations (and probably the Cambodian side as well).

In summary, it says along the 800 km territorial border with Cambodia, there are at least 15 areas awaiting agreement from both sides. This territorial boundary goes all the way to the sea, with the natural resources under the seabed being at risk. Currently, there is an overlap of about 27,000 sq. km in the Gulf of Thailand being claimed by both countries. If Thailand accepted the French drawn maps, much of the oil and gas deposits recently found (by Chevron) would belong to Cambodia. It is thought that the disputed territorial areas on land would be a model for the overlapping sea boundaries because they would be based on the same French mapping principles. Hence, the ownership of the 4.6 km of overlapping land near the Preah Vihear temple could set a precedent for the ownership of very lucrative oil and gas deposits.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Old Man River

[Meerkat]

Article is here.

[Old Man River]

Article is here.

Thanks. We can be assured that Samak is well aware of this and the potential of accusations against him by his friends in the military if he gives in an inch. He won't.

[Meerkat]

Thanks. We can be assured that Samak is well aware of this and the potential of accusations against him by his friends in the military if he gives in an inch. He won't.

The gentleman written about in the article is an advisor to the Supreme Command. It is the Supreme Command's Royal Thai Survey which is the body responsible for coordinating national boundaries, so you've got to hope that they're on top of any situation!

Personally, as long as it is explicitly stated by the General and Joint Boundary Committees that one border demarcation in no way sets a precedent for another, I don't really think it would be much of a problem. Thailand no longer recognises the ICJ's jurisdiction anyway (they let their "membership" lapse after Cambodia took them to court over PV in the fifties), so Cambodia couldn't force them to court now as they did back then for instance.

[Old Man River]

Thanks. We can be assured that Samak is well aware of this and the potential of accusations against him by his friends in the military if he gives in an inch. He won't.

The gentleman written about in the article is an advisor to the Supreme Command. It is the Supreme Command's Royal Thai Survey which is the body responsible for coordinating national boundaries, so you've got to hope that they're on top of any situation!

Personally, as long as it is explicitly stated by the General and Joint Boundary Committees that one border demarcation in no way sets a precedent for another, I don't really think it would be much of a problem. Thailand no longer recognises the ICJ's jurisdiction anyway (they let their "membership" lapse after Cambodia took them to court over PV in the fifties), so Cambodia couldn't force them to court now as they did back then for instance.

I totally agree with you on both counts.

My guess is that on the temple, Thailand will seek to go back to the status quo of neither agreeing with the other for political reasons, but neither making an issue out of it either. However, the sharing of the wealth on the oil and gas reserves is another thing. It remains to be seen if Cambodia will cut Thailand in on the proceeds here as it is potentially several hundred million USD's per year.

[jimbob]

While the international community recognizes Cambodia's interest in the temple and surrounding areas, few in Thailand care about this. This is an issue for Thailand and Cambodia to work out, not any other country. This concerns Thailand and Cambodia only.

Well in terms of the heritage listing UNESCO is an international body so the ball is out there already.

As for bilateral negotiations they have been without success for many decades so clearly the two countries cannot work it out on their own.

Better surely to present the case to a neutral third party who can make an impartial decision based on the facts and arguments presented by both sides?

Cambodia would certainly be willing to go back to the ICJ.

What about Thailand?

[Plus]

Cambodia under Hun Sen is a known and proven entity, I doubt there will be amicable solution any time soon. Where's that article where their foreign minister says that Tej Bunnag is a neophite and no match for that <deleted>'s experience.

I don't think they are on the same level of understanding and Thailand should deal with them on different terms.