Thai Troops Enter Disputed Territory On Thai-cambodian Border

[wintermute]

If the situation actually flared up to the point where you need to evacuate people, wouldn't it be wiser to have commercial aircraft rather than Air Force planes landing in Cambodia?

It's just saber rattling. If things really got that bad then all Thai aircraft would be fair game and it's doubtful that the Cambodians would allow them to land anyhow.

[sriracha john]

Tension remains high on Thai-Cambodian border

Phnom Penh - The number of Thai troops in territory Cambodia considers sovereign continued to increase Thursday, and a high level Cambodian government delegation was to visit the site imminently, officials said.

Cambodian government spokesman Khieu Kaharith declined to say which government ministers would be on the helicopter flight scheduled for Friday, but Defence Minister Teah Banh, who found sanctuary in Thailand during the 1975-79 Khmer Rouge regime and who speaks fluent Thai, is expected to be included.

Officials and local media reported Thursday that fearful Cambodian residents had begun evacuating the area of a border dispute over an 11th-century Hindu temple as Thai troop numbers grew to around 400 and Cambodia continued to try to double that number.

"Powerful people in Thailand want to solve this," government spokesman Khieu Kanharith said by telephone, but did not elaborate.

Thailand maintains the area occupied by its troops is a disputed no man's land and they are not in Cambodia, but Cambodia disagrees.

"Cambodia would like a memorandum of understanding from Thailand, but we value our cooperation too much to press hard," a senior government official said on condition of anonymity.

"This hurts, and it violates Cambodia's national integrity, but we will do everything we can to solve this diplomatically."

Local newspapers Thursday printed front page pictures of Thai troops standing at Cambodian checkpoints, with Cambodian Khmer-language signs clearly visible.

Kanharith said Thailand called for the urgent meeting to defuse the row over joint claims to the temple ruins compound. An emergency meeting of the General Border Committee will be held Monday in Thailand's border province of Sa Kaeo.

It was not clear whether the meeting of the committee, set up years ago to cope with joint border problems, would be attended by Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej in his capacity as Defence Minister.

The anonymous government offical backed claims by both Koh Santepheap and the Cambodia Daily newspapers that Cambodian residents were evacuating the area. "All civilians have left the area and gone to the town seven kilometres away, as I am aware," he said. Around 900 Cambodian families live around the temple.

Tensions began rising Tuesday, when Cambodia detained and then released three Thais it said had illegally crossed the border.

- DPA

[sriracha john]

Can't get much closer than this....

Soldiers from Thailand (left) walk past Cambodian soldiers near the Cekakiri Svarak pagoda of the Preah Vihaer temple, about 245 km (152 miles) north of Phnom Penh, July 17, 2008. Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen said on Thursday a border row with Thailand was "worsening" and urged the immediate withdrawal of Thai troops from the disputed ancient temple.

Reuters

[blaze]

BBC tonight reports that Thai Police are on the border- to try to prevent PAD people from bangkok from cooking up an international incident. According to the BBC, locals (Thais) want them (the PAD) out- Cambodians don't want them around either- the Thai government certainly doesn't want them doing their crazy shit out there- so for whom is this little passion play being performed? And to what end?

[h90]

The Thai Side:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Phrea Vihear

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The Cambodian Side:

----------

1 - 4: Associated Press

5 - 6: Reuters

very strange pictures.....

Why "strange" h90?

look quite normal tahaan praan and Cambo regulars to me.

Seems the Cambodian side are quite happy to give access to AP and Reuters up the cliffside or is the Thai press blockade not quite as rigid as they would like to admit?

I was thinking that this could be the next Ban Romklao, but there the media really were blocked from taking pics or reporting on what turned out to be a really nasty little war with chemical weapons used and plenty of body bags (600 by some accounts) sent back to Pitsanoloke under Chavalit's guard. Hopefully, this conflict won't come to that, and nationalistic fervour can be minimised.

Strange.....looks very different than european military...

Different guns on the Thai people (even a AKA if I am not wrong).

The cambodian carry their weapons in a strange way.....look like camping.....

But I don't know about Asian armys, just look strange to me.

I'm pretty certain some of those Thai soldiers aren't normal soldiers but their version of elite Army rangers and special forces. Thailand does have a very competent well trained special forces unit that is regularly involved in operations along the border. They also train a lot with U.S. special forces and navy seals.

The mix of weapons (specially with the AKA 47) looks more like paramilitary/reservists or? Or maybe local reservists as they know the area best??

It's possible that they are just weekend warriors but would Thailand risk sending inexperienced soldiers into a potentially delicate situation like this? Or maybe they are elite soldiers just dressing down like U.S. SF often do. Shrug. It could be any number of things.

They don't look inexperienced and they are all a bit old.

They look like a collection of the leftovers from the last wars (including their guns).

Strange but no idea why this is....

[Pierrot]

From the BBC :

"And in a sign of divisions within Thailand over the issue, several hundred local villagers blocked a group of protesters from marching to the temple on Thursday morning.

The volatile state of Thai politics is the principal reason the row has blown up.

The most vehement opposition to the Preah Vihear World Heritage bid comes from the same groups who objected to many of Mr Thaksin's policies: the traditional aristocratic elite."

Unrest in Bangkok, insurgency in the south, and now a looming war with Cambodia. For some times, PAD protests have been associated with "Sunday in the park". Now it's time to realize what they really are , a threat to social stability and now a threat to peace in S.E. Asia.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Pierrot

[Nampeung]

someone's started a thread about them in General http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Call-Witness-t200692.html

[Pierrot]

For your information: these are Rangers (Dahan Praan - Hunter Soldier), an elite volontary paramilitary force ...

Thank you for these information.

Paramilitary : So you mean they don't belong to the regular army ? And if so, to which authority do they report ?

[bangkokrick]

For your information: these are Rangers (Dahan Praan - Hunter Soldier), an elite volontary paramilitary force ...

Thank you for these information.

Paramilitary : So you mean they don't belong to the regular army ? And if so, to which authority do they report ?

They are paramilitaries under army control.

They have no rank, and are led by corporals, sergeants, and officers despatched from regular army. For some conscriptees who could not become professional soldiers this is a way into the army, either as volonteer paramilitaries or with later opportunities to make an easier corporal test.

Also many corporals from the regular forces volonteer to lead Rangers as it can open otherwise closed opportunities to make it to sergeant.

A very good book was published on these forces - The boys in Black - by White Lotus Publishing

Thanks justback very informative.

Cheers, Rick

[Pierrot]

[

They are paramilitaries under army control.

They have no rank, and are led by corporals, sergeants, and officers despatched from regular army. For some conscriptees who could not become professional soldiers this is a way into the army, either as volonteer paramilitaries or with later opportunities to make an easier corporal test.

Also many corporals from the regular forces volonteer to lead Rangers as it can open otherwise closed opportunities to make it to sergeant.

A very good book was published on these forces - The boys in Black - by White Lotus Publishing

What you mean is that they are no mercenaries, they are under government control, right ?

So why aren't they integrated to the army ? Just for cost reason? Or because they may asked to be involved in operation the government don't want to be linked to ?

[Pierrot]

It's been a while, but as far as i can remember there are several reasons why they are not incorporated into the army. One is cost, another is bypassing army burocracy to have forces at hand that can be rapidly depoyed, can live from the land, know the land extremely well. They are mostly formed from locals, such as near the burmese border areas also hilltribes were recruited, even non-Thai tribals, and many who could not pass the difficult entry exams for regular army but made tremendously efficient soldiers.

There are though in many units disciplinary problems, some are extreme, and there are many experts who would like the better battalions incorporated into the army and the rest disbanded.

Many Rangers classify themselves as "mercenaries", but they are somewhat in between.

But if they are near the Cambodian border, can we be sure it is under direct government order or could they be hired by some other party ?

[bangkokrick]

But if they are near the Cambodian border, can we be sure it is under direct government order or could they be hired by some other party ?

In this case i very much doubt that.

Many Rangers are involved in shady business, but this is a high level thing, and only natural after the damned PAD and the opportunistic Democrats have used this issue for political gains, and risked a war about this and other yet disputed border areas.

There is no realistic way that they have been "hired" by any party. They are under army control, and the army has deployed them there. What amount of control the Thai government has over things right now though, especially over the army, is doubtful.

Nevertheless - PAD has made no friends with this rubbish other than under the most extreme and fanatical army factions, forcing a further destabilisation that now even touches regional security issues.

More info.

The Royal Thai Army has formed a new Thahan Phran (or Ranger) regiment for special duties in Chiang Saen, Chiang Khong and Wiang Kaen districts along the Mekong River in Chiang Rai province. The regiment has a skull and dagger insignia, and is responsible for curbing human trafficking and other illegal movements across the Mekong into Thailand from northwestern Laos.

Several different companies from the regiment, which is headquartered at Pakthongchai near Khorat, have been deployed to the Mekong districts since 2005. These include 945 Company, which was based at Vieng Mok in December 2005; 963 Company, which was based at Doi Pha Tang in 2005-06; 949 Company, which has a base just on the southern outskirts of Chiang Khong; 951 Company, which was at Doi Pha Tang in June 2007; 958 Company, which had camps from Huay Yen to Ban Don Dee, on the river road from Chiang Khong to Chiang Saen in 2006; and 948 Company, which was camped along that road in June 2007. One of the camps is directly opposite Ban Nam Koeng in Laos, and the Rangers cooperate closely with the Laotian authorities, informing them when they force illegal crossers to return to the Lao side.

This area has become the new vector for trafficking narcotics into Thailand, as well as women from Burma, Laos and China. In the last few years, there has also been a substantial number of North Korean citizens being trafficked into this area of Thailand. Estimates vary, but the total number caught since 2004 is likely to exceed 1,000. Those arrested are taken to Chiang Rai jail, then transferred to a jail in Bangkok before being resettled in South Korea. After the long and harrowing journey from North Korea down through China, and then through northwestern Laos, they are often beaten and abused when arrested in Thailand.

Cheers Rick

[ThaiAdventure]

Perhaps a more common term would be militia or (as the regular army would say) cannon fodder

[Nampeung]

But if they are near the Cambodian border, can we be sure it is under direct government order or could they be hired by some other party ?

In this case i very much doubt that.

Many Rangers are involved in shady business, but this is a high level thing, and only natural after the damned PAD and the opportunistic Democrats have used this issue for political gains, and risked a war about this and other yet disputed border areas.

There is no realistic way that they have been "hired" by any party. They are under army control, and the army has deployed them there. What amount of control the Thai government has over things right now though, especially over the army, is doubtful.

Nevertheless - PAD has made no friends with this rubbish other than under the most extreme and fanatical army factions, forcing a further destabilisation that now even touches regional security issues.

Are you saying the 'Damned' PAD in such a way as to condemn them or is it just a way of talking

[samran]

You are right. Easily solved though. When you are not trying to buy football teams, buying cut priced government land in central BKK, gourging yourself on contracts building airports and giving PTT shares to yourself and all your mates, you go camp out for a couple of nights in the boonies - mixing it with the locals and doling them out 1000 baht notes - and pretend to be 'one of the poor folk who understands our needs'. You televise it all on national TV for 4 days straight just to ram it home to the masses. Give your daughter a pretend 'part time job' and McDonalds, and give them 30 baht health care while you buy up the hospitals which get (your) governments funding to run the darn things.

Street cred...it is what it is all about!

Right, but honestly, compare to starting a war with a neighboring country, it sounds a bit like child play, doesn't it?

As far as I know, some bloke named Samak is Thailands defense minister- he is also masquarading as Thailands PM so I'm told and in normal circumstances wouldn't piss on a PAD supporter one was on fire. Now he is sending the the cavalry to 'save' three PAD'ers in Cambo???

Hold on.......

Penny is dropping.......

Hammering the Cambos is GOOD politics as far as his rural bumbkin constituents think. So in a week where he is giving them a bit of cheap petrol and electricity, he's also standing up to those pesky cambo's.

He is regaining the initative. He is using nationalism for his own benefit, rather than having the PAD using it against him.

But cause he is a PPP party member, best buddies with Thaksin etc etc, I guess it makes it all right in your book now???

[geriatrickid]

None of these soldiers looks like soldiers trained for peacekeeping and I can take a pretty good guess of their reaction if some weapon discharges accidently. The longer they are exchanging words, and near each other, the more likely someone is going to end up with bullet wounds.

As an aside, I haven't seen any alerts issued by US State Dept., AUS/CAD/UK Foreign Affairs departments. Maybe the desk masters aren't concerned about this? Nothing in the US State daily press briefings either and usually they mention countries of concern.

[geriatrickid]

Samran,

I don't agree with the other part your other opinion, but how can anyone disagree with your astute (and valid) observation?

Hammering the Cambos is GOOD politics as far as his rural bumbkin constituents think. So in a week where he is giving them a bit of cheap petrol and electricity, he's also standing up to those pesky cambo's.He is regaining the initative. He is using nationalism for his own benefit, rather than having the PAD using it against him.

Instead of the penny dropping, how about the genie is out of the bottle and he's now desperately trying to get him back in? These people aren't given to considering the implications of their actions are they? I feel like I'm 8 years old all over again and some turd is yelling at another kid to meet him on the playground at recess.

[bulmercke]

Cambodia's premier calls for withdrawal of Thai troops

By Agencies

Cambodia's Prime Minister Hun Sen have called for the immediate withdrawal of Thai troops from the disputed area at Preah Vihear Temple.

Hun Sen said his country's border dispute with Thailand is "worsening."

The Cambodian leader has described the three-day stand-off at the disputed Preah Vihear temple as "very bad" for relations.

His comments are contained in a letter to Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej.

Earlier, the Cambodian military said Thai troops had again crossed the border, saying some 400 soldiers are now in the country.

Thailand has denied the allegation, insisting it has troops in the border area, but none in Cambodia itself.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I believe the Cambodians on this issue.

And - of course - this is a very convenient distraction for for the Thai general populace.

Better they get agitated and concerned about what is essentially a quite trivial matter (Preah Vihear) than about what really matters - the lame duck government!

[samran]

Samran,

I don't agree with the other part your other opinion, but how can anyone disagree with your astute (and valid) observation?

Hammering the Cambos is GOOD politics as far as his rural bumbkin constituents think. So in a week where he is giving them a bit of cheap petrol and electricity, he's also standing up to those pesky cambo's.He is regaining the initative. He is using nationalism for his own benefit, rather than having the PAD using it against him.

Instead of the penny dropping, how about the genie is out of the bottle and he's now desperately trying to get him back in? These people aren't given to considering the implications of their actions are they? I feel like I'm 8 years old all over again and some turd is yelling at another kid to meet him on the playground at recess.

Genie has been out of the bottle for years. Thaksin played the nationalistic card to perfection during his premiership - tarnishing the Democrats for capitualting to the IMF, blasting the UN when it had the gaul to question his human rights record ("the UN is not my father"). Of course, it came back to bite him when he sold shincorp to the singaporeans - so youcan't say this hasn't been used as a political tool by PPP/TRT.

The PPP have only been trying to get the genie back in the bottle so far as cambo is concerned as there are to many vested interests in Cambo for PPP/Thaksin not to.

But, I think the short term political calculus has changed. With the PPP up for disolution in the next 6 months (it will happen) and elections to almost necessairly follow, the PPP needs to shore up its position in the rural heartland who have been hurting the most from increasing inflation and fuel costs.

The Cambo's most certainly understand this, and beside, they owe Thailand a bit of leniency on this stuff given that they let their locals run rampage on Thai interests there a few years back....

And yes...8 year old name calling is what this has come down to.

[Farma]

Cambodian, Thai soldiers draw weapons

From correspondents in Preah Vihear, Cambodia

July 18, 2008 12:49pm

CAMBODIAN and Thai soldiers have pointed their weapons at each other for the first time on disputed land near an ancient Hindu temple on the border.

More than 400 Thai troops and 800 Cambodian soldiers are stationed around a small Buddhist pagoda on the slope of a mountain leading to the ruins of 11th century Preah Vihear temple.

Witnesses said troops twice pointed their guns at each other during 10 tense minutes last night when 50 Cambodian troops entered the pagoda compound to protect food supplies for 57 Cambodian monks.

"Our troops and Thai troops pointed their guns at each other. They were on alert," said Brigadier Chea Keo, commander-in-chief of the army at Preah Vihear.

"After that Cambodian military commanders and Thai commanders held talks for approximatly one hour. We solved our problems after talks with Thai commanders," he said.

Cambodian troops agreed to stay outside the pagoda during the night to avoid confrontations, he said.

"In order to avoid gunfire, we agreed to stay outside the pagoda. The situation is stable now," Commander Chea Keo said.

The mood was less tense this morning as Cambodian soldiers went back inside the pagoda and were seen chatting and smiling with Thais.

Officials from both countries plan to meet Monday to resolve the stand-off.

But Cambodian Premier Hun Sen told his Thai counterpart Samak Sundaravej in a letter that the dispute was worsening and harming their relations.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0...5003402,00.html

[pumpuiman]

The PAD has gone too far. Distorting and amplifying the temple issue at the risk of peoples lives.

The PAD wants blood spilled....is it worth it?

Christ...the entrance to the temple is on Thai soil....if your mad, charge a 10,000 baht toll to visit.

[seagull]

I don't remember where from I read these, (so cannot post link) but when being asked by reporters for his comments on these tense situation, his replies were "go asked the army", and when probe further, he said "go asked the PAD".

PM/Defence Minister calibre ? Jeeeze, heaven help Thailand.

[Tony Clifton]

Very sad images on tv last evening. Swords were flying yesterday. Thais hurling swords at Thais, not Cambodians. After Thaksinistas broke through police lines (another miserable failure on police part), they hurled swords, sticks and rocks again at the PAD crowd. Needless to say they received their merchandise back the same way the sent it.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[LomSak27]

"I don't remember where from I read these, (so cannot post link) but when being asked by reporters for his comments on these tense situation, his replies were "go asked the army", and when probe further, he said "go asked the PAD". M/Defence Minister calibre ? Jeeeze, heaven help Thailand. "

Ahh head in the sand? haven't been following the news of late eh. This so called "crisis" is only the latest manufactured by those dear souls of the the PAD and Democratic party. Before this they employed favorite of old Tak's himself; the dreaded LM accusation, to force the resignation of a minister.

I have to admit I rather enjoy it. A lot of the expats around here seem to believe PAD actually cares about corruption or for that matter is different in a substantive way than TRT, er PPP er whoever.

Pass the sriracha sauce I’m having Khi geo this morning

[LomSak27]

Meanwhile, over a hundred carloads of People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) activists attempting to demonstrate at the controversial temple early Thursday were prevented by police and military personnel from traveling to the site, being stopped outside the perimetre established some 10 kilometres from the site.

Such Patriotic Souls

[Old Man River]

I put a link below to Bangkok Pundit who refers to a report by Jonathan Head (BBC) on the Preah Vihear temple. Head makes some very astute observations. For one, in 1962 when the International Court ruled against Thailand in favor of Cambodia over whose temple it was, they did so based on Thailand not having protested against the French drawn map. Somehow they skipped over the fact that Thailand fought a war against the French colonialists in 1941 over where the Thai/Cambodian border should lie. The Victory Monument in Bangkok commemorates Thailand's victory in this short war.

Secondly, Head noted that the town of Siam Reap (next to Angor Wat) literally means Siam (Thailand) flattened. It would be interesting to know where that came from.

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/...ar-dispute.html

[Pierrot]

I put a link below to Bangkok Pundit who refers to a report by Jonathan Head (BBC) on the Preah Vihear temple. Head makes some very astute observations. For one, in 1962 when the International Court ruled against Thailand in favor of Cambodia over whose temple it was, they did so based on Thailand not having protested against the French drawn map. Somehow they skipped over the fact that Thailand fought a war against the French colonialists in 1941 over where the Thai/Cambodian border should lie. The Victory Monument in Bangkok commemorates Thailand's victory in this short war.

Secondly, Head noted that the town of Siam Reap (next to Angor Wat) literally means Siam (Thailand) flattened. It would be interesting to know where that came from.

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/...ar-dispute.html

I don't have my history books with me, so it's just from memory.

Actually, it was the French, when they were ruling Indochine, who gave back Angkor Wat to the Cambodian, at that time it was part of the Kingdom of Siam. One French had this funny remark about the Cambodian queen "we gave her back Angkor Wat but she still hates us ...."

[Pierrot]

Very sad images on tv last evening. Swords were flying yesterday. Thais hurling swords at Thais, not Cambodians. After Thaksinistas broke through police lines (another miserable failure on police part), they hurled swords, sticks and rocks again at the PAD crowd. Needless to say they received their merchandise back the same way the sent it.

Not so sure if we're talking about the same thing, but because it's in this thread I believe you refer to the incident when local villagers were trying to stop PAD members to create more trouble.

It was local villagers who live in peace with their neighbours. Why, because you were born on one side of a line, should you hate and kill people people born on the other side? For these local villagers, PAD people are the foreigners, not the Cambodians.

[Old Man River]

I put a link below to Bangkok Pundit who refers to a report by Jonathan Head (BBC) on the Preah Vihear temple. Head makes some very astute observations. For one, in 1962 when the International Court ruled against Thailand in favor of Cambodia over whose temple it was, they did so based on Thailand not having protested against the French drawn map. Somehow they skipped over the fact that Thailand fought a war against the French colonialists in 1941 over where the Thai/Cambodian border should lie. The Victory Monument in Bangkok commemorates Thailand's victory in this short war.

Secondly, Head noted that the town of Siam Reap (next to Angor Wat) literally means Siam (Thailand) flattened. It would be interesting to know where that came from.

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/...ar-dispute.html

I don't have my history books with me, so it's just from memory.

Actually, it was the French, when they were ruling Indochine, who gave back Angkor Wat to the Cambodian, at that time it was part of the Kingdom of Siam. One French had this funny remark about the Cambodian queen "we gave her back Angkor Wat but she still hates us ...."

Oh, no. Hopefully, taking Angor Wat from Thai territory and giving it to Cambodia doesn't become an issue as well.

[Pierrot]

I put a link below to Bangkok Pundit who refers to a report by Jonathan Head (BBC) on the Preah Vihear temple. Head makes some very astute observations. For one, in 1962 when the International Court ruled against Thailand in favor of Cambodia over whose temple it was, they did so based on Thailand not having protested against the French drawn map. Somehow they skipped over the fact that Thailand fought a war against the French colonialists in 1941 over where the Thai/Cambodian border should lie. The Victory Monument in Bangkok commemorates Thailand's victory in this short war.

Secondly, Head noted that the town of Siam Reap (next to Angor Wat) literally means Siam (Thailand) flattened. It would be interesting to know where that came from.

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/...ar-dispute.html

I don't have my history books with me, so it's just from memory.

Actually, it was the French, when they were ruling Indochine, who gave back Angkor Wat to the Cambodian, at that time it was part of the Kingdom of Siam. One French had this funny remark about the Cambodian queen "we gave her back Angkor Wat but she still hates us ...."

Oh, no. Hopefully, taking Angor Wat from Thai territory and giving it to Cambodia doesn't become an issue as well.

If you go this way, instead of giving autonomy to the southern region, Thailand can claim Penang ...