What Snake Is, (was), This?

[nidge]

I popped into my bike workshop this morning to grab a tool and saw movement on the floor. I seem to have acquired a family of toads recently so it didn't bother me at first. Then i saw a long tail disappear and suddenly i got the willies! After 30 minutes of pathetic catching attempts my wife convinced me to kill it. She is convinced it was dangerous but neither of us know what it was. Any ideas?

[Goshawk]

Indian Rat Snake Ptyas mucosa

surprised your wife didn't know it was Ngu Sing.. many Thai's eat this one.

not venomous, but bites..

[TBWG]

Indian Rat Snake Ptyas mucosa

surprised your wife didn't know it was Ngu Sing.. many Thai's eat this one.

not venomous, but bites..

Why kill it leave it alone and it will leave you alone. As the name implies it was doing you a favour keeping rodents under control.

I find this Thai attitude of it is a snake kill it rather sad.

TBWG

[nidge]

I don't have a rodent problem and the toads were keeping the cockroaches down. I have a 14 month old baby that is all over the house right now, a dead snake is a much better deal than a bitten baby.

[seancbk]

I don't have a rodent problem and the toads were keeping the cockroaches down. I have a 14 month old baby that is all over the house right now, a dead snake is a much better deal than a bitten baby.

I can see your point completely.

Although I feel sad that the poor snake had to die. You don't have a rodent problem because of that snake, which has likely been around a long time without bothering you.

[nidge]

You could be right about the rodents, we will see soon enough. Although if you saw the size of the cockroaches you would not wonder why i have never seen a rat around here. I'm surprised there are still some cows!!!

[TBWG]

I don't have a rodent problem and the toads were keeping the cockroaches down. I have a 14 month old baby that is all over the house right now, a dead snake is a much better deal than a bitten baby.

I appreciate your concern but life is full of danger and lessons to be learn't from it. To me the chance of me or any of the family being bitten by a snake is one I can live with.

Of far more concern to me are motorbikes, I just hope that you and your wife do not use use your baby as an airbag up front on a motorcycle, every time I see that my blood runs cold

Think yourself lucky you live in a country where you can make the decisions yourself as to risk assessment, in the UK it won't be long before we have to don full riot gear to open a pot noodle

TBWG

[Beardog]

Looks like a common type of Keelback. Harmless to humans (unless stepped upon) I killed one to relieve my girlfriend & found out later if you let this type go it is not a problem We live in the countyside area & have many. 6 last month. they eat frogs , & toads & an occasional mouse & small critters.

[silverhawk_usa]

I watched a television documentary on what is known as the "Cobra Village" in Thailand. The villagers put on shows by "fighting with Cobras". One of the young children was in training to bea fighter and they used rat snakes as the opponent. Although not poisonous the snake did get in quite a few nasty little bites. I wouldn't want my baby bitten by one either.

[dingdongrb]

I don't have a rodent problem and the toads were keeping the cockroaches down. I have a 14 month old baby that is all over the house right now, a dead snake is a much better deal than a bitten baby.

I appreciate your concern but life is full of danger and lessons to be learn't from it. To me the chance of me or any of the family being bitten by a snake is one I can live with.

Of far more concern to me are motorbikes, I just hope that you and your wife do not use use your baby as an airbag up front on a motorcycle, every time I see that my blood runs cold

Think yourself lucky you live in a country where you can make the decisions yourself as to risk assessment, in the UK it won't be long before we have to don full riot gear to open a pot noodle

TBWG

It irritates the chit out of me when I hear, ‘don’t kill those poor little loving snakes you find in your home’. I say it is my home I will kill whatever wild critter comes crawling around that I feel is a threat to me or my family (2 year old daughter in the house). Yeah, it’s a different story, I agree, if you are tromping around in the brush and happen upon a snake. Leave it alone and go in the opposite direction. But in my home, garage, or even yard, it is DEAD…..or lucky to get away.

Maybe you would like to also remind the OP to cap his electrical plugs as well as remove all sharp objects and dangerous chemicals too….

[tigerbeer]

sure looks scary though. but i would have tried to call for help in removing it (if i was in a cool mind). rather than kill it. but then again i have kids at home too and i might have done the same as the OP at the spur of the moment.

[aitch52]

I had exactly the same experience a couple of days ago, with the same type of snake, when I saw it my first thought was to let him go as I personally like snakes (from a distance), but on the insistence of my wife he had to die. I will give the poor blighter his due, very feisty and had a few strikes at me before he was subdued. I have learned from this experience and will make every effort to let them free in future any critter that keeps the unwanted down is fine in my book and I am afraid the macho male protecting his beloved reared it's ugly head. Also thanks for the identification!!

CGH

[mdechgan]

I have seen many snakes near my house and are only a few of them should be careful and stay away from.

Types I've seen in Bangkok:

Most common is the cobra. If its black, with a brown tan or underbelly be careful. Chances are its a cobra. These guys are fast!

Kraits. These have alternating bands like black and yellow. They are known by their triangular shaped bodies.

Stay away from these, they are more deadly than cobras and mortality rate is like 85% without treatment.

Pythons: These guys are huge. I had one that was like 4 meters long stroll across my road in the mooban. dam_n slow though, but keep your dogs, cats rabbits, small children away.

The other ones to be careful are the pit vipers. These guys have huge heads compared to their body. Be especially careful of the chain viper or russell's viper. These have a design on their backs that look like a chain.

Another one is the ngoo hang mai. Its a green snake, with brown tail. about 1-2 meters long. Big head.

Snakes I've seen common but are not dangerous are the rat snake and whip snakes. The whip snake or tree snake is really small, green very small head ( I think it would lose a fight with a spider).

I 've seen more but I don't know what they are called or if they are dangerous or not.

Just be careful of a few rules.

If it looks like a cobra,

has a triangular shaped body with bands,

large head, or is huge like 4 meters long stay away.

Don't even try to kill it. Stay away. Get some professional help. My elders taught me if you try to kill a snake or you fail to do so it will remember you and come back for revenge. Or if you do kill it, the blood scent remains and the rest of the family (friends, family, offspring) will come out for revenge.

What is more dangerous is have you guys seen a huge monitor lizard? I have seen some the size of alligators crossing the road non-chalantly.

Now these guys are dangerous.

The best advice is the keep the area around your house well groomed and maintained. Try not to have too many corners or places for snakes to hide. Trim yor bushes, keep your grass short, don't keep piles of dead leaves and get rid of rock piles, etc.

Also keep the area around your house well lit. Most snakes are nocturnal and don't like bright lights.

Don't be like my neighbors, they don't cut their grass and they never have any lights outside their house on until they see cobras in their yard. So if your house is well groomed and well lit while your neighbor's have a dark and messy yard with long grass most of the time the snakes will want to go to your neighbors yard instead. Also rats and other animals will want to go their too, which are the snake's staple food. If no food, they will leave.

Edited September 17, 2008 by mdechgan

[phaethon]

What is more dangerous is have you guys seen a huge monitor lizard? I have seen some the size of alligators crossing the road non-chalantly.

Now these guys are dangerous.

They have these strolling around the Future Park at Rangsit - talk about ancient and modern. Can't they also be seen in Lumpini as well?

Not every Thai turns homicidal (serpenticidal?) upon spotting a snake...

This guy (below) works at the Red Cross Snake Farm, Bangkok. He was bitten on the hand (didn't say what snake) and they had to amputate his index finger. But he returned to work because "he love snake".

[Lopburi99]

I don't have a rodent problem and the toads were keeping the cockroaches down. I have a 14 month old baby that is all over the house right now, a dead snake is a much better deal than a bitten baby.

I appreciate your concern but life is full of danger and lessons to be learn't from it. To me the chance of me or any of the family being bitten by a snake is one I can live with.

C'mon, you have GOT to be kidding!! Accept the threat of a snake bite to a baby?

OK, try to find somebody to quickly remove it , but one way or another, that snake HAD TO GO, and FAST!

Edited September 17, 2008 by Lopburi99

[mdechgan]

What is more dangerous is have you guys seen a huge monitor lizard? I have seen some the size of alligators crossing the road non-chalantly.

Now these guys are dangerous.

They have these strolling around the Future Park at Rangsit - talk about ancient and modern. Can't they also be seen in Lumpini as well?

Not every Thai turns homicidal (serpenticidal?) upon spotting a snake...

This guy (below) works at the Red Cross Snake Farm, Bangkok. He was bitten on the hand (didn't say what snake) and they had to amputate his index finger. But he returned to work because "he love snake".

I saw this guy on T.V. once.

He was bit by a king cobra. I think he said he was bitten so many times is immune system is almost tolerant of cobra bites.

[lannaman]

http://www.siam-info.de/english/snakes_poisonous.html

This is a MUST-HAVE website for anyone living or visiting Thailand. There's a lot of information on snakes scoripons etc.

This rainy season we seem to have far fewer snakes for some reason, maybe not so many frogs. Last year the froggy chorus was deafening.

[lannaman]

Notice the underscore between snakes_poisonous

[Gary A]

An interesting fact about the King Cobra is that there is not a single documented death in Thailand from that snake. The certainly CAN kill you and many people have been bitten but the King Cobra apparently would rather conserve his venom to kill something he can eat.

The article I read said that the Monocled Cobra kills more people in Thailand than any other snake.

[mdechgan]

I think there are confimed documented ones.

A famous snake handler, dancer, wrestler was killed because of a bite.

However there have been no documented "natural" king cobra bites.

Monocled cobras are way more common.

Kraits are also common and way more deadlier than cobras.

Kraits are slower so they will bite if aggraveted.

Cobras are dam_n quick but they usually will hide instead of bite.

"Really quick"

[Bagwan]

If we are to believe National Geographic (very often I don't) king cobras live entirely on other snakes. They are usually to be found near water and are excellent swimmers. ASAIK all snakes swim but the king cobra is a veritable Captain Webb.

[mdechgan]

Yep!

The kings are strong, fast, tall, and also can swim. Swim really good.

These guys are strong and tall enough to bite people on their necks.

However to believe kings rely solely on other snakes I do not believe.

Put a rat or bird or toad in a king cobra cage and see what they do.

[phaethon]

I have read in couple of places that the male also guards the nest, so perhaps you have two of them to contend with...

[Bagwan]

Snakes do not produce antibodies and therefore are very fragile creatures unable to fight infections. Some years ago at the Transvaal Snake Farm, where they feed the snakes live prey, a couple of mice were put in with a Black Mamba. One ran straight over the snake and bit it. The snake was found dead on the morning.

[phaethon]

Ah, so I was right when I said "nuu gin nguu!" and everyone laughed

[Okidoki]

There are several reported lethal bites from King Cobras, both in Thailand and other countries. The good thing about the poison is that King Cobras poison, are quite clean so you do not loose any limb... If a Monacle Cobra bites you it will be another story and that is what happened at Red Cross. BUT... The amount and potency of a King Cobra bite is enough to kill you several times. Logical as well since a King Cobra can reach up to 5.5 meters in length.

King Cobras and common Asian cobras are not possible to compare at all in way of acting, to handle or catch. Most ordinary Asian cobras are actually very easy to handle... To put up an African cobra to a snakecharmer here, that would cause some serious damage to the snake charmer. Absolutely 100% difference in mentality between them. Trust me.

King Cobras prey 95% of other snakes. That is why they are very, very hard to keep alive and breed in captivity. The female often eats the male... The specialists in the world of breeding Kings, are San Diego Zoo. They have succeeded to get new born kings of the third generation to eat mice and even eels by rubbing snakeskin to the mice. BUT... Kings are very hard to keep alive in capitivity.

Another fact is that king Cobras actually are known to "guard" or stay close to their nests when the female guards the egg. So... avoid them.

Most snakes are tolerant to their own poison. However, It happens that a rodent bites and injures snakes with the consequence that the snake die. I have had both Black Mambas and common cobras that this has happened to. But it is very unlikely that the snake die the day after due to a snakebite.

According to Kraits, they do not bite. Daytime... Nighttime if you step on them, it is another story. They also live more or less solely on other snakes.

And the price in Thailand for King Cobras are.... 800 baht per kg I am told... :-)

If you see a King Cobra in the wild, you are very lucky. They are very observant and sneaks away. However... if they nest...

The snake that kills most people in Asia, are Russels Viper. Very potent and depending on where the snake comes from, you need to have a different serum.

Yes, I have breeded breeded cobras and many, many more species for years. But not King Cobras even if I have some experience from them.

[mdechgan]

Cobra bites are neurotoxic. Only about 50% of the bites are venomized, so only 10% of the bites are actually fatal. Most hospitals have antivenom.

Kraits are extemely more dangerous. Same but more danderous neurotoxic venom like 10 times more, death can occur after 6 hours after a bite. Mortality is almost 99% if left untreated. 50% if treated because the antivenom doesn't work unless if its for the specific species. Meaning an antivenom for a common krait won't work for a banded krait.

Neurotoxic venom causes death by stopping the lungs or or heart from beating.

Okidoki is correct that there are many cobra types. Asian cobras and African cobras are different. King cobras don't have more dangerous (actually 10 times less toxic) venom but the amount of venom injected is what kills people something like 150-200mg compared to 60mg for a cobra and 20 for a krait.

However neurotoxic venom isn't as disfiguring as the snake below. I don't hink you will lose an arm or a leg because of a cobra bite. Maybe a finger if bit on a finger.

Russell's or chain viper. This snake has hemotoxic venom. If bitten the venom causes the blood vessels and plasma to burst. So one will have severe permanent damage and disfigurement if bitten by one. Lots of tissue and muscle will be lost even necrosis. Death is caused by uncontrolled bleeding. If bitten the venom has to be sucked out immediately by a pump or serious damage will occur.

So out of the entire group one might be considered lucky to be bitten by an asian cobra other than a king, krait or chain viper.

Edited October 3, 2008 by mdechgan

[Okidoki]

Thanks for the info! To my experience and knowledge there are very few bites from Kraits (Bungarus spp) recorded at all? I have heard of an american animalhandler who handled a banded krait in broad daylight, then put the snake in a dark bag. After 5 minutes, he wanted to show the snake to someone, put down his hand and was immediately bitten. This was in the 50-60´s I believe. It also correlates with my experiences from Kraits. To be bitten by a krait, I think you need to step on it walking night time.

When it comes to Monacle cobras and necrosis, you will loose a finger, toe or ear, due to necrosis. (Limb is maybe not the correct english word). There are several persons that has experienced that... I have also seen a guy that was bitten in the leg and had lost a huge chump on the backside of his left leg. To my understanding there are several pharmaceutical companies researching about that phenomena due to if you are bitten in the left thumb, your right longfinger might be the part that will be damaged. (I do not know if anyone can explain why it is like that.) If I recall correctly, the Funnelweb spider will create the same injury but much more severe. (They use MCobras because it is much easier to milk a snake than a spider...) I don´t think it has anything to do with the type of venom. It is because of another component, that is a part of the venom.

Interesting that you state that the venom must be sucked out immediately. There has been so many discussions about that. Extractors causing more tissue damage and spreading the venom, If you use you mouth and you will have a small wound in the mouth it would be like being bitten in the mouth. When I was bitten they didn´t do any attempt to "suck" the poison out.

[mdechgan]

Thanks for the info! To my experience and knowledge there are very few bites from Kraits (Bungarus spp) recorded at all? I have heard of an american animalhandler who handled a banded krait in broad daylight, then put the snake in a dark bag. After 5 minutes, he wanted to show the snake to someone, put down his hand and was immediately bitten. This was in the 50-60´s I believe. It also correlates with my experiences from Kraits. To be bitten by a krait, I think you need to step on it walking night time.

When it comes to Monacle cobras and necrosis, you will loose a finger, toe or ear, due to necrosis. (Limb is maybe not the correct english word). There are several persons that has experienced that... I have also seen a guy that was bitten in the leg and had lost a huge chump on the backside of his left leg. To my understanding there are several pharmaceutical companies researching about that phenomena due to if you are bitten in the left thumb, your right longfinger might be the part that will be damaged. (I do not know if anyone can explain why it is like that.) If I recall correctly, the Funnelweb spider will create the same injury but much more severe. (They use MCobras because it is much easier to milk a snake than a spider...) I don´t think it has anything to do with the type of venom. It is because of another component, that is a part of the venom.

Interesting that you state that the venom must be sucked out immediately. There has been so many discussions about that. Extractors causing more tissue damage and spreading the venom, If you use you mouth and you will have a small wound in the mouth it would be like being bitten in the mouth. When I was bitten they didn´t do any attempt to "suck" the poison out.

For russell's viper bites it more effective to suck the venom and wound out with an extractor.

The krait guy you were talking died only a few yearts ago in Burma by a baby krait.

I've seen alot of kraits at my grandfather's place in Chanransanitwong 44. Very dangerous.

[Okidoki]

For russell's viper bites it more effective to suck the venom and wound out with an extractor.

The krait guy you were talking died only a few yearts ago in Burma by a baby krait.

I've seen alot of kraits at my grandfather's place in Chanransanitwong 44. Very dangerous.

I know there are two serums for Russels, depending on if it is an indian or ME species. That is a big problem among the private keepers to know the snakes origin. What do you base your statement of when you say it is more effective to use extractors?

I do not think it is the same guy I was talking about that died by a Krait. I am positive this was in the 1950-1960´s. Can try to see if I can find a book of toxilogy where this is mentioned.

Would love to see Kraits in the wild but unfortunately, I never have. Have kept 6-8 banded ones through the years in capitivity but never seen any in the wild. I live in Phuket and heard a guy that thought he saw a blue headed krait when he was looking for his golfball. When he pulled out to take the ball in the grass, a snake striked against him. But if it really was a blue headed... Well...

How come you are familiar with venoms and snakes?