Government Schools, Celta, Wp, No Degree... ?

[Rionoir]

I'd like to ask for some clarification of a rather narrow aspect of teaching without a work permit. I am already aware of the "laws" regarding work permits, but in the end - TIT!

My question is regarding government schools. I have read several places that it may be very possible to teach at a government school in Thailand and obtain a work permit without a degree. I realize that this would require someone pulling some strings, but that it is not uncommon, particularly at the grade school level.

Can anyone confirm this, or maybe share some personal experience (or a friend's personal experience)? Is this old info, or is this still possible? I'd greatly appreciate it.

For the record, I do not have a degree (obviously we've all figured that out already lol), but do plan on taking a CELTA course at ECC before I begin looking for a job.

Also, can anyone recommend a good (but moderately priced) university in BKK that offers night time classes?

Ok sorry, one more question... what is the age that teachers start finding it hard to get jobs in BKK? I am 30 now. I have a Thai friend that works at Wall Street and in a staff meeting they were told that the typical English teacher that fits their mold is 35-ish and under (among other things)... so just curious how that stacks up to other schools, since I will be close to that already by the time I graduate! Man this country is tough.

Thanks in advance for any info.

[PeaceBlondie]

A CELTA would help, but in Thailand surely, other four week TEFL courses are fine, too. At least until now, there has been no standard national standard of requirements for farang teachers of TEFL - including university degree..

Wall Street has the reputation of only hiring the youngest teachers. Provincial prathom scjhools even hire old guys with pony tails.

[Rionoir]

Thanks for the reply PB. I was reading the TEFL and CELTA descriptions at the school and it seemed like CELTA had more complete curriculum for someone with no teaching experience. I really do want to teach, but I also want to make sure I am prepared to teach, and most places I've read it seemed like CELTA was the "best" certificate to have if I had my choice. If you have any specific recommendations though besides where I mentioned, I respect your opinion. ECC also has an additional "young learners" course which I plan on taking if I'm happy with the other class.

thanks again

[Loaded]

Thanks for the reply PB. I was reading the TEFL and CELTA descriptions at the school and it seemed like CELTA had more complete curriculum for someone with no teaching experience. I really do want to teach, but I also want to make sure I am prepared to teach, and most places I've read it seemed like CELTA was the "best" certificate to have if I had my choice. If you have any specific recommendations though besides where I mentioned, I respect your opinion. ECC also has an additional "young learners" course which I plan on taking if I'm happy with the other class.

thanks again

The 'TA' in CELTA stands for Teaching Adults. Most work in Thailand is Teaching Children. You can take the ECC extension but by then you'll have spent the equivalent of your first 3 months salary.

[Rionoir]

Well I've never heard of a CELTC ? And none of the descriptions of TEFL/TESOL courses I've read say they focus just on children either? Anyway, like I said I'm fine with the cost, it's not an issue... I just want to be prepared.

[PeaceBlondie]

By its very name, CELTA is for teaching adults. The other courses, especially in Thailand, naturally cover teaching children because that is what most EFL teachers do here. So, as stated, you have to add on a YL module to the CELTA to get fully trained, and there have been times and places in Thailand when the YL module was not readily available. Some employers, especially provincial government schools, are so clueless that they hardly know what the acronyms mean. Do you know what degree-less EFL teachers do at language centers? They teach lots of children and teenagers. Of course, the TEFL courses prepare you to teach adults as well. And at the beginning of the day, CELTA is a name for a TEFL course that does not teach how to deal with young learners.

[Rionoir]

Ok ok I see... well like I said if you have any specific recommendations on a course I wouldn't mind hearing it.

[PeaceBlondie]

This forum has two sponsors of TEFL courses in Thailand. See at the top of the page.

[mbkudu]

Without a degree your future here is bleak, bleak, bleak. Scratch the CELTA or any other 'Tefl' and put your money and

energy into getting the degree.

[Rionoir]

<br />Without a degree your future here is bleak, bleak, bleak. Scratch the CELTA or any other 'Tefl' and put your money and <br />energy into getting the degree.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

I don't know what your definition of bleak is, but if you mean more difficult than working with a degree, yes, I am aware... but if you mean my odds of getting a job are low and my odds of getting arrested are high... well then you must've drank the purple kool-aid at your last staff meeting. I know more than a couple of people personally who have worked in BKK for years without either a degree nor a TEFL of any type and seem to manage just fine... I don't think any of them would describe their lives as bleak. If you ask me, it seems like the people who DO have degrees and are trying to do the 100% legal route are the ones that would describe their futures in thailand right now as bleak... what with the new hoops they have to jump through.

Also, please re-read my thread... I asked about a good university in bkk because I do intend to finish my degree. Unfortunately, re-directing the $1500 from my CELTA to a degree is not going to pay for any of my food or lodging for the next few years... however, if you know of anyone interested in taking care of those items for me then please send me a PM immediately.

[PeaceBlondie]

But Rionoir, I think mbkudu was writing about the future, not what non-degreed folks got away with until now. The future looks bleak, for nearly all TEFL teachers.

[mbkudu]

It took me seven years of slogging visa runs and freelance hours here and there with the odd language school hours to pay

for my lunches before I decided that I needed to stop and get my degree. I made good money, but there was and is no

sustainable future here for teachers without degrees. If you plan to teach for the experience for a year or two and have fun,

then don't bother getting any certification at all; you won't need it. You'll be wasting your money. If you plan to make a career

out of teaching, then get a degree. Having or not having a degree is not the argument as there are excellent teachers with and

without then. The issue is that without one, you'll be more vulnerable to regulations that Thailand is famous for changing at

the drop of a hat.

[Rionoir]

Either way like I said I want to work on a degree... but I still need to work while I'm in school. My reason for starting this thread was simply that I had read several places that I may be able to work legally (i.e., get a work permit) in a government school even without a degree... and if I can work legally at all, then I can deal with the downsides of the government schools for a few years. And after all this, I'm still unclear on that point.

[PeaceBlondie]

Call us cynics, but some of us have trouble singing that hit song by Timbuk3, "The Future's So Bright, I've Got to Wear Shades."

[mizzi39]

Either way like I said I want to work on a degree... but I still need to work while I'm in school. My reason for starting this thread was simply that I had read several places that I may be able to work legally (i.e., get a work permit) in a government school even without a degree... and if I can work legally at all, then I can deal with the downsides of the government schools for a few years. And after all this, I'm still unclear on that point.

I have four friends who are currently working (full time) in BKK without degrees, so yes they are working illegally, but working all the same. Many schools like the (Govt.) school I teach at will not hire you unless they can make you legal, therefore you need all of your paperwork in order and this includes a degree. Some schools simply cannot be bothered with making their teachers legal or simply don't know how. Is it possible to get a WP and non B visa minus a degree? Possibly, but I do not know any legal teacher working without one. It is immigration where you are most likely to run into a problem because when you are going for your non B the immigration officer asks to see your ORIGINAL degree. Now I barely had mine out of my folder when he said "Thank you! you can put it away" A copy needs to be attached to your paperwork which you bring to immigration and a copy needs to be attached to your paperwork which you give to the labor office before they will issue your WP. If you can deal with the "visa shuffle" which will be your biggest hassle until you get your degree then you should be fine.

Having a TEFL, TESOL, or CELTA is good and can give you some leverage over a person who does not possess one, but it is important to keep in mind that they are good for vocational training only since they are not a requirement to teach legally in the LOS.

Edited July 19, 2008 by mizzi39

[thaipak]

Either way like I said I want to work on a degree... but I still need to work while I'm in school. My reason for starting this thread was simply that I had read several places that I may be able to work legally (i.e., get a work permit) in a government school even without a degree... and if I can work legally at all, then I can deal with the downsides of the government schools for a few years. And after all this, I'm still unclear on that point.

I have some personal exp. to share here. Me and my wife run an english school up country, and I am the official teacher here. Anyhow, when we got the school registered I was ask to make teachers licence which became handy at the time of WP application. I was not asked for a degree even though I had attached one copy with the application. As for doing a degree here in Thailand yes you can do it as I have just finished mine master in English (MA). It took me 4 years even though the time mentioned in the begining was 2 years. Delay was on the University side not my side but I had to follow their routines. Mind you will be registered as a foreign studetns even though u r living here (even resident permit does not change it). That mean u pay twice as compare to Thai students. My suggestion to you is try getting your degree and paper work sorted out in Up country as there are less issues to handel and your employer can get lot of things done for you. Best of luck

Edited July 19, 2008 by thaipak

[Martian]

I just recently returned from a vacation to see my Thai family and to do a little investigating of TEFL courses in the interest of teaching (I have a Bachelor's degree, but not in ED). I have pretty much decided that if I go this route, I will take the SEE TEFL course in Chiang Mai. I met with Mr. John Quinn (had appointment) who I found quite knowledgeable as well as very personable. Mr. Quinn did not dance around any questions and offered competent answers, even if some were opinion or speculation based upon his experience. I also think the month long course including accommodation for about $1,200 US is a fair deal.

I also visited (had appointment) TEFL International at Chiang Mai university and they were very indifferent about all the questions I asked them, especially the one about if they don't know (and they didn't nor concerned) what the teaching requirements will be next year, on what premise were they still offering and selling their course to prospective teachers in Thailand that might not have all the qualifications if the proposed rules were implemented.

I too feel that I could enter a classroom and teach but not at the level that I think would be fair to the profession and more importantly, fair to my students. That's why I am interested in more training if I decide to pursue this type of employment in Thailand.

FYI - I went to two schools in the town where my house is located and both were very interested in my teaching next year. One was a private Christian school and the other was an upper level (academics based) government school. The government school requires me to complete a TEFL course and said there would be no problem with Visa and WP for at least the first year. After that I surely would have to take the cultural course (ok with me) but they were uncertain about the proposed 1 year program for holders of Non-Ed degrees. The private school offered accident insurance but no health coverage whereas the government school offered accident insurance and then entry into the Thai social security system for health coverage after 90 days.

Anyway, my choice is the SEE TEFL course in Chiang Mai should I seek TEFL training.

Regards,

Martian

[Slip]

I know of one English Teacher with no degree and a work-permit so it is obviously possible. Yes, I think there was string pulling- or at least some slight subterfuge, employed by the school.

The comments made are valid. Life is very uncertain here for English teachers- even those with degrees. I suspect that there will always be illegal work available but then it's you a*se on the line.

[Ijustwannateach]

As far as I am aware, it is still legal under certain circumstances to work as a teacher (obviously with a work permit) without a degree- largely at language schools and government schools for TEFL. The odds on getting and keeping a job this way are going down, however, and nothing guarantees that it will always be legal.

"S"

8. Topics on the question of degrees/no degrees for teaching English or other subjects are currently restricted as they have been over-discussed and Thai government policy is not currently clear.

We'll let that be that for now.