Is Thai Really That Hard To Learn?

[Firefoxx]

I often hear that Thai is one of the top ten "difficult to learn" languages of the world. I really don't think so... in fact, I think that it's easier to learn than English. Let's compare some aspects of the Thai and English language:

Spelling: Thai is a lot more strict about the pronunciation of a certain word. Once you know the rules, you can usually read any written Thai word without any problem. English on the other hand is a mishmash of different languages and English words can be spelled any which way. Take "two" for instance... if it were to follow the usual rule, you would be saying "ta-woe", but instead you're supposed to say "too". Or was it "to"? Then there's tough, which is spelled similarly to dough, but pronounced waaay differently, not to mention "doe".

Tones: This is the "killer" that most foreigners stumble on. However, English also has tones very similar to Thai. The big difference is that in English you can vary the tones depending on what you want to say, while in Thai it's set in stone. Take for example the word "computer". In a typical sentence, the tones would be "neutral-rising-low", but when it ends a question, it would be "neutral-rising-high". Using different tones would make it sound strange, just like in Thai. That's the reason why so many foreigners don't like the Thai pronunciation of English words, because Thais have set the tone to their own arbitrary way.

Adjectives and adverbs: In English, the adjectives are usually in the front and adverbs are usually in the back. In Thai, both adverbs and adjectives are in the back. I think that's even simpler than before.

Amount, degree, tense: In English, you have plurals to represent "more than one". You also have tenses of words, many of which require memorization. Then there's the "quick, quicker, quickest" fiasco. Thais learning English always have trouble with these permutations. Why? Because Thai doesn't have these things. There are no plurals, degrees, or tenses of words. In Thai, you add the appropriate description: cows->many cow, quicker->more quick, worked->had work. I think this is much easier than memorizing arbitrary permutations.

Can't think of any more right now. Any comments on my theories?

In my case, I was able to speak Thai fairly well within a few months, fluently within a year, and was able to read/write fluently within 2 years.

[boris]

No comment on your theories which have some truth to them particularly the "once you know the rules" point but are they are scarcely original and could have been extracted from any simple Thai language primer.I have no way of proving it but somehow I doubt your Thai is quite so proficient as you claim.Over many years I have learnt that this is a subject on which Farangs are notoriously unreliable.The only true test I have found is to hear a Farang speaking Thai myself.

[Firefoxx]

Well, I can't prove my proficiency/fluency in Thai in this forum. I can, however, say this with confidence: if a Thai were to call me and talk to me, he would not be able to tell that Thai is my second language. I'm confident since it's what I've done countless times.

I wasn't trying to be original, rather I was trying to get comments on why westerners consider Thai to be so hard when it is actually much simpler and more structured than English. I therefore laid out what I thought was simpler/more structured. I thought of these points on my own, but anyone with a sufficient degree of familarity with both languages could do the same. I really didn't know these points were in Thai language primers, since I've never actually read any language primers.

I can understand your scepticism on Farangs not being proficient in Thai. In the past decade of living in Thailand, I have met only a handfull of westerners who could speak Thai *without an accent* (which I equate to being fluent). However, they do exist.

[RamdomChances]

I'll try to add some comments in my dyslezic fairly inebriated state, dont flame me if i'm wrong

I often hear that Thai is one of the top ten "difficult to learn" languages of the world. I really don't think so... in fact, I think that it's easier to learn than English. Let's compare some aspects of the Thai and English language:

I dont think it that hard though I cant read or write it!!

Spelling: Thai is a lot more strict about the pronunciation of a certain word. Once you know the rules, you can usually read any written Thai word without any problem. English on the other hand is a mishmash of different languages and English words can be spelled any which way. Take "two" for instance... if it were to follow the usual rule, you would be saying "ta-woe", but instead you're supposed to say "too". Or was it "to"? Then there's tough, which is spelled similarly to dough, but pronounced waaay differently, not to mention "doe".

See comment on dyslexic, I can write english word all sort of ways they all seem the same to me, I did a post earlyer with a word in that took me about 6 attempts before the spell checker knew what I was on about, and I was sober then.

Tones:

Tones are tough

Adjectives and adverbs

Adjectives arer just the other way around, i'm still not sure what an adverb is!!

Amount, degree, tense: In English, you have plurals to represent "more than one". You also have tenses of words, many of which require memorization. Then there's the "quick, quicker, quickest" fiasco. Thais learning English always have trouble with these permutations. Why? Because Thai doesn't have these things. There are no plurals, degrees, or tenses of words. In Thai, you add the appropriate description: cows->many cow, quicker->more quick, worked->had work. I think this is much easier than memorizing arbitrary permutations.

Here I dont really agree with you, plurals I think english is easyer as you dont have to remember all the classifiers, although we do have them i.e pair of shoes, 20 head of cattle, two tennis bats ect.

I think english tenses mabye harder, but if you get into the thai for " could of " "should of" "would of" ect it does get a bit more complicated.

Quick, quicker, quickest not sure what the problem is, reaw, reaw gwa or rew khun, reaw tee soot. I always thought comparisons were quite easy.

In my case, I was able to speak Thai fairly well within a few months, fluently within a year, and was able to read/write fluently within 2 years.

Well done tick and a gold star

I can understand your scepticism on Farangs not being proficient in Thai. In the past decade of living in Thailand, I have met only a handfull of westerners who could speak Thai *without an accent* (which I equate to being fluent). However, they do exist

I sometimes wounder about this, I'm by no means fluent, but I've never met a falang that can speak better thai than I currently can (close though). I think it just comes down to percentages ie

how many falangs can speak thai to a fairly good standerd/ how many are in the country/ how many you have met.

It has to cut the odds down a lot dont you think, especialy if like me you some times go months with out seeing an other falang.

Wow that was a long post for this time of night

[Richard W]

A few difficult features of Thai were omitted:

• Sentence final particles: น่ะ and the like.
  
• Pronouns
  
• Adverb formation - as adjective / prefix อย่าง / reduplication
  
• Differences between men's and women's language
  
• Formal registers (not as hard as Javanese, though)
  
• Genitive and construct cases - most people aren't aware of them, as they aren't presented as such.
  

It's probably no more difficult than English, though. My feeling is that established languages are equally complex, with complexity limited by the ability of people to learn them. Different languages put the complexity in different places.

[snoophound]

Its the tonal part of the language that gets me.

hmm got in trouble with missus the other night for say kuay rather than kwai if you know what i mean

werry naughty word one way !!!

Funny in Patts or wherever listening to the Manchester Thai though

[Firefoxx]

A few difficult features of Thai were omitted:

• Sentence final particles: น่ะ and the like.
  
• Pronouns
  
• Adverb formation - as adjective / prefix อย่าง / reduplication
  
• Differences between men's and women's language
  
• Formal registers (not as hard as Javanese, though)
  
• Genitive and construct cases - most people aren't aware of them, as they aren't presented as such.
  

It's probably no more difficult than English, though.  My feeling is that established languages are equally complex, with complexity limited by the ability of people to learn them.  Different languages put the complexity in different places.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Woah, a reply from someone who knows his stuff. I don't have the slightest clue what some of these terms are, but I guess that they mean something that I've overlooked, hehe. "Final particles" sounds like something from Star Wars and "Genitive and construct cases" sounded really naughty somehow . You gotta love linguistics!

[RamdomChances]

A few difficult features of Thai were omitted:

• Sentence final particles: น่ะ and the like.
  
• Pronouns
  
• Adverb formation - as adjective / prefix อย่าง / reduplication
  
• Differences between men's and women's language
  
• Formal registers (not as hard as Javanese, though)
  
• Genitive and construct cases - most people aren't aware of them, as they aren't presented as such.
  

It's probably no more difficult than English, though.  My feeling is that established languages are equally complex, with complexity limited by the ability of people to learn them.  Different languages put the complexity in different places.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Woah, a reply from someone who knows his stuff. I don't have the slightest clue what some of these terms are, but I guess that they mean something that I've overlooked, hehe. "Final particles" sounds like something from Star Wars and "Genitive and construct cases" sounded really naughty somehow . You gotta love linguistics!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Firefoxx, if you think that is complcated, have a read of this one

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...pic=14312&st=30

[sabaijai]

I would tentatively agree with Richard that all established languages are equally complex for a learner starting from scratch, i.e., a baby. But for an adult starting from language A and trying to learn languages X, Y and Z, the relative difficulty can be ranked. Or at least linguistics experts do rank them. The main criterion used is the average length of time it takes for a language A speaker to learn languages X, Y and Z to the same degree of proficiency.

In the USA, for example, language experts at the Foreign Service Institute and Defense Language Institute use such rankings to inform their intensive language training programs.

The relative difficulty of a given target language is somtimes called "language distance". According to Contextual Factors in Second Language Acquisition, at http://www.cal.org/resources/digest/0005contextual.html:

Language distance

Specific languages can be more or less difficult to learn, depending on how different from or similar they are to the languages the learner already knows. At the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, for example, languages are placed in four categories depending on their average learning difficulty from the perspective of a native English speaker. The basic intensive language course, which brings a student to an intermediate level, can be as short as 24 weeks for languages such as Dutch or Spanish, which are Indo European languages and use the same writing system as English, or as long as 65 weeks for languages such as Arabic, Korean, or Vietnamese, which are members of other language families and use different writing systems.

When I first arrived in Thailand in the 70s, the Peace Corps had volunteer programs in both Malaysia and Thailand (only in Thailand nowadays). At the outset of the three-month intensive Thai language training programs, the instructors always cautioned volunteer trainees in Thailand not to let themselves be discouraged by the fact that their counterparts in Malaysia would reach the same average proficiency in Malay in six months that the Thailand vols would reach in Thai in two years.

I've studied Thai, Malay, Lao, French, Spanish and Mandarin Chinese and for me Thai and Lao were the most difficult to learn (I primarily learned spoken Chinese so can't compare the writing systems). There's no way I could call the learning experiences for each of those languages even roughly equivalent.

[SawWow]

โทษที (tort thee)

Firefoxx,

Here's an intro to Thai Particles.

www.geocities.com/siamsmile365/thaiparticles/thaiparticles.htm

I'll bet you've used a few.

[Spee]

Any comments on my theories?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As one who used to have some abilities with Spanish (French and Italian are similar), and have horsed around with or been around a bit with Romanian, German and a few others, and am now studying Thai pretty seriously, I had a few comments:

- I don't see one any one language as particularly harder or easier than the other. They each have characteristics that make them somewhat difficult and also somewhat easier than other languages. The primary difficulty is being open to trying to learn something new, and approaching the new language without any predispositions based on knowledge of other languages. Once I was able to make this step, my approach to learning Thai started to come easier.

- The western languages (e.g., English, French, Spanish, etc.) all have many different dipthongs, tenses, etc., that have to be learned. Italian and Romanian languages are also very close, linked a bit by Latin. This makes them difficult in that there is a lot to learn. On the other hand, it makes them easier to learn one once you have learned another. For example, Spanish and Italian are very close.

- Thai may be a bit difficult initially because of having to learn a whole new character set for letters, numbers and punctuation, and having to learn a larger alphabet and tone rules. On the other hand, it seems like there are very few rules to learn for tenses, and the sentence structure is very simple. In other words, while it takes a bit of time and effort to master a few basics, once those basics are grasped, one can have a pretty decent working vocabulary in a very short time.

Agree? Disagree? Other thoughts?

[slimdog]

Any comments on my theories?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As one who used to have some abilities with Spanish (French and Italian are similar), and have horsed around with or been around a bit with Romanian, German and a few others, and am now studying Thai pretty seriously, I had a few comments:

- I don't see one any one language as particularly harder or easier than the other. They each have characteristics that make them somewhat difficult and also somewhat easier than other languages. The primary difficulty is being open to trying to learn something new, and approaching the new language without any predispositions based on knowledge of other languages. Once I was able to make this step, my approach to learning Thai started to come easier.

- The western languages (e.g., English, French, Spanish, etc.) all have many different dipthongs, tenses, etc., that have to be learned. Italian and Romanian languages are also very close, linked a bit by Latin. This makes them difficult in that there is a lot to learn. On the other hand, it makes them easier to learn one once you have learned another. For example, Spanish and Italian are very close.

- Thai may be a bit difficult initially because of having to learn a whole new character set for letters, numbers and punctuation, and having to learn a larger alphabet and tone rules. On the other hand, it seems like there are very few rules to learn for tenses, and the sentence structure is very simple. In other words, while it takes a bit of time and effort to master a few basics, once those basics are grasped, one can have a pretty decent working vocabulary in a very short time.

Agree? Disagree? Other thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to admit to having only a basic knowledge of Thai. But two comments:

Firstly regarding tones. When people I meet say they can't hear the different tones I normally give this example; "Close" This can be said with two very different tones, with two very different meanings.

"You are close enough to close the door"

It gets people thinking...

Secondly the Thai alphabet: When people say there are too many characters to learn I point out that when you compare the Thai alphabet and the English alphabet (Upper and Lower case) it's comparable.

Just a thought...

[meadish_sweetball]

I agree 100 % with sabaijai. It is possible to rank the difficulty of obtaining a language on a scale, but it is important to stress that this difficulty is largely determined by your mother tongue, your general level of education and exposure to foreign languages and culture and your general ability to pick up new languages.= your starting point.

In other words, if you are a native speaker of English, Dutch, French, Swedish or Finnish, you cannot compare the difficulty you experience when learning Thai, to that of a Vietnamese person. It will generally be A LOT easier for a Vietnamese to learn Thai, despite the fact that Vietnamese and Thai hardly share any common vocabulary, and that some linguists maintain they do not even belong to the same language family.

For me as a Swede, learning English, French and Spanish was a totally different ballpark to learning Thai. Anyone who has some linguistic background knowledge relating to Indo-European languages will understand that there are several things that make these languages significantly easier to learn for other speakers of Indo-European languages as opposed to East-Asian and South American languages ("Indian" languages, not colonial Spanish or Portuguese).

Languages carry their culture. To speak a language fluently and communicate well, you have to acquire a great number of the idioms of that language as well. Idioms are often exceptions to the "usual" structure of the language. Idioms in European languages are often based on a common culture and religion, making even idioms you don't know fairly easy to recognize and understand. Thai idioms often introduce flora, fauna, religious or social concepts alien to Westerners who have not lived around this area for a long time (outside of the expat enclaves) or studied these aspects of Thai life and surroundings elsewhere.

If you know your own European language well enough, this means you will be able to discuss advanced subjects quickly in another European language you are learning as soon as you have grasped the tenses and sentence structure. The Latin/Greek/French word base makes this easy. There is no such scientific word base to access when you want to discuss advanced subjects in Thai, unless you are proficient in Sanskrit or Pali (and Khmer to some extent).

In short, it really depends what aspects of the language you look at when you determine difficulty. Some aspects of Thai are hard, some are easy.

[Hua Nguu]

Spelling: Thai is a lot more strict about the pronunciation of a certain word.  Once you know the rules, you can usually read any written Thai word without any problem.  English on the other hand is a mishmash of different languages and English words can be spelled any which way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

English is a mishmash of different languages and thai is not?

Usually the words I ###### up when spelling are the ones with Pali/khmer origin or the increasing number of english words popping up.

Thais may be more strict about the pronounciation of a certain word, but that definitely doesn`t apply to the actual spelling which I find one of the most difficult aspect about learning thai.

I would claim that although you are very well familiar with the rules of spelling there is no way you can really be sure if you get the spelling right when you encounter an unfamiliar word and are asked to spell that in thai. Especially pronouns.

Or am I totally off track here and my own grasp of the rules merely too limited?

Cheers

Michael

[Khutan]

The thing that now really gets me now are some of the idioms where the rules are thrown out the window.

But Sabaijai and Meadish, great posts, totally agree.

[Boh Bpen Yang]

All of the above posts make worlds of sense to me. I am an extreme novice in Thai... Actually I am better with Issan. I have trouble with the tones just as I have trouble singing.. can't carry a tone in a bucket. I have read and understand basic tone rules, but putting them into practice when I can't really distinguish them aurally is VERY difficult for me. For this reason alone I would say that Thai is Yaak Maak.

[Spee]

Firstly regarding tones. When people I meet say they can't hear the different tones I normally give this example; "Close" This can be said with two very different tones, with two very different meanings.

"You are close enough to close the door"

It gets people thinking...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a good point, the whole concept of synonyms, homonyms, and so on. When my fiancee' and I were first starting to see each other, we had some disagreements that were a result of misunderstandings about the words "no" and "know."

Secondly the Thai alphabet: When people say there are too many characters to learn I point out that when you compare the Thai alphabet and the English alphabet (Upper and Lower case) it's comparable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hadn't thought about it that way, but that makes sense. Then there is also the whole punctuation business (periods, commas, semicolons, etc.) that further complicates things, whereas with Thai the punctuation seems to be inherent in the choice of words and sentence structure.

[meadish_sweetball]

Firstly regarding tones. When people I meet say they can't hear the different tones I normally give this example; "Close" This can be said with two very different tones, with two very different meanings.

"You are close enough to close the door"

It gets people thinking...

This is a good point, the whole concept of synonyms, homonyms, and so on. When my fiancee' and I were first starting to see each other, we had some disagreements that were a result of misunderstandings about the words "no" and "know."

Secondly the Thai alphabet: When people say there are too many characters to learn I point out that when you compare the Thai alphabet and the English alphabet (Upper and Lower case) it's comparable.

Hadn't thought about it that way, but that makes sense. Then there is also the whole punctuation business (periods, commas, semicolons, etc.) that further complicates things, whereas with Thai the punctuation seems to be inherent in the choice of words and sentence structure.

Yes, punctuation is an added difficulty if you are reasoning from a Thai's viewpoint when learning English and other European languages (in fact, most other languages with Latin-based scripts).

Still, if used correctly, punctuation makes a lot of sense. My personal opinion is that Thai would do well to adopt spaces between words and common punctuation marks as that would increase legibility of Thai texts. As a sideline, in H.M. the King's book about his adopted stray dog, Thong Daeng, he uses just these features. Anybody else might have some difficulty convincing Thai people of the merits of punctuation.

[Firefoxx]

I would claim that although you are very well familiar with the rules of spelling there is no way you can really be sure if you get the spelling right when you encounter an unfamiliar word and are asked to spell that in thai. Especially pronouns.

Cheers

Michael

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry that I didn't make myself clearer, since I do know that a spoken Thai word can be spelled many different ways. I was referring to the other way around, the written Thai word can't (with few exceptions) be pronounced incorrectly. That's why I gave the English example of "to" "too" and "two" (and then "tow" and "cow" etc. etc.). Thai has at least two letters for each consonant sound, the more exotic one being used with Sanskrit words and so on.

When I was saying that English is a mishmash of languages, I didn't really mean to say that Thai is not. Thai is indeed composed of different languages, but in the end Thai writing is still very rigid (although there are a few exceptions). In English, you can find examples of the great mismash everywhere... take "lasagna" for instance.

I can understand the concept of language distance. Japanese and Chinese are closely related, and so it would be conceivably easier to learn. Europeaen languages are also similar, with similar alphabets. It's probably a matter of having one language embedded into your psyche and then having to learn a very unfamiliar one.

I know that tones are hard for Farang, but what about the "uu" sound, as in "gra buu" (buffalo) or "tuu" (carry). On the other hand, Thais have problems with the "v" sound and for some reason always replace it with the "w" (I always though that the "f" would be more appropriate). Then there's the problem with following "r"'s and "l"'s as in "father" and "steel" since no Thai words have these.

Really nice to see lots of people contributing their thoughts on the subject, tons of expert (and not so expert, hehe) opinions.

[Richard W]

Still, if used correctly, punctuation makes a lot of sense. My personal opinion is that Thai would do well to adopt spaces between words and common punctuation marks as that would increase legibility of Thai texts. As a sideline, in H.M. the King's book about his adopted stray dog, Thong Daeng, he uses just these features. Anybody else might have some difficulty convincing Thai people of the merits of punctuation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, a lot of handwritten Thai does leave spaces between words, though you will often also get spaces between syllables.

One thing I hadn't noticed about written Thai is that you can chop it up into sesquisyllables, which you can't do with Tua Mueang (the Northern script). I can't think of any real good examples just now (perhaps Sabaijai can), but for example Montho (as in the letter) is written มณโฑ, whereas the truly Indian rules, which are used in Tua Mueang, would lead to it being spelt มโณฑ.

[loong]

QUOTE(slimdog @ 2004-11-11 12:06:24)

Firstly regarding tones. When people I meet say they can't hear the different tones I normally give this example; "Close" This can be said with two very different tones, with two very different meanings.

"You are close enough to close the door"

It gets people thinking...

Surely this example is the difference between a short "s" and a long "s", not tones.

The things I find most difficult are the lack of spaces between words and the missing vowels.

Generally tho I agree that it is difficult to mispronounce written Thai once you know the rules. Certainly better than trying to pronounce Thai words written in the roman alphabet. ie. Gaw (short aw) Samui written as Koh and of course the famous river Kwai (Kwae) that is actually more like Kwaire. Most Farang with a little knowledge of Thai believe that the River Kwai translates as the Buffalo River!

[sabaijai]

Well, I can't prove my proficiency/fluency in Thai in this forum. I can, however, say this with confidence: if a Thai were to call me and talk to me, he would not be able to tell that Thai is my second language. I'm confident since it's what I've done countless times.

I'm often mistaken for a native speaker on the phone as well, but then callers who notice that I'm not a native speaker wouldn't necessarily comment on that fact, so I have no way of knowing how times I didn't "pass". Many, perhaps most, Thais have no experience conversing with foreigners on the phone, so they may assume that anyone who speaks Thai, however imperfectly, must be Thai.

At any rate there's more to language proficiency than perfect pronunciation of stock phrases. I'm not calling into question your fluency, Firefoxx, but have to say that for a native English speaker to become fluent in Thai within two years would be considered highly unusual among Thai language educators.

Then again it all depends on what you call fluent. On a 5-point scale where 5 would be functionally native proficiency, most Thai language learners will have attained no more than level 2 or 2+ after two years of study and immersion. Yet often people I would guess are at that level describe themselves as 'fluent'.

Back in July on this branch there was a thread about what it means to be 'fluent' or proficient in Thai. You might want to have a look.

fluency or proficiency?

It's a sticky topic. If you wanted to find out where you stand according to professional methods of language proficiency evaluation, you could pop by the Peace Corps office on Si Ayuthaya Rd, ask to meet with one of the Thai language staff trained in administering the FSI oral exam and then make an appointment to be tested after hours. Often the Thai language instructors there moonlight as tutors, so it should be relatively easy to arrange. Ask to see Ajahn Uthai, the head of the Thai training program.

[sabaijai]

One thing I hadn't noticed about written Thai is that you can chop it up into sesquisyllables, which you can't do with Tua Mueang (the Northern script). I can't think of any real good examples just now (perhaps Sabaijai can), but for example Montho (as in the letter) is written มณโฑ, whereas the truly Indian rules, which are used in Tua Mueang, would lead to it being spelt มโณฑ.

If I knew what a sesquisyllable was, I might be able to come up with one. But if the example you gave is a pesky-syllable, then Thai has many -- but they might be mostly of P/S origin? Just a shot in the dark, for me figuring out Thai vocabulary with problematic spellings is a simple matter of memorisation, as it is for most Thais. I'll leave you to figure this one out, Richard.

Written Thai does insert gaps between phrases to indicate certain pauses between clauses or ideas, and in fact using those 100% correctly would, in my book, be a sign of native proficiency.

Another example of systematic gapping is when a person's full name is written out -- the given name is separated from the family name.

Once you get used to Thai writing, though, you don't really miss English-style punctuation or spacing between words. Inserting spaces between words probably would speed up one's reading, but it might slow down your writing ...

[Boon Mee]

One thing I hadn't noticed about written Thai is that you can chop it up into sesquisyllables, which you can't do with Tua Mueang (the Northern script). I can't think of any real good examples just now (perhaps Sabaijai can), but for example Montho (as in the letter) is written มณโฑ, whereas the truly Indian rules, which are used in Tua Mueang, would lead to it being spelt มโณฑ.

If I knew what a sesquisyllable was, I might be able to come up with one. But if the example you gave is a pesky-syllable, then Thai has many -- but they might be mostly of P/S origin? Just a shot in the dark, for me figuring out Thai vocabulary with problematic spellings is a simple matter of memorisation, as it is for most Thais. I'll leave you to figure this one out, Richard.

Written Thai does insert gaps between phrases to indicate certain pauses between clauses or ideas, and in fact using those 100% correctly would, in my book, be a sign of native proficiency.

Another example of systematic gapping is when a person's full name is written out -- the given name is separated from the family name.

Once you get used to Thai writing, though, you don't really miss English-style punctuation or spacing between words. Inserting spaces between words probably would speed up one's reading, but it might slow down your writing ...

I'm getting more used to it as time goes on but still have my ready pencil handy to draw lines between words as an aid in understanding and speed.

บุญมี

[thaigold]

Sabai...

Agreed... Thai is not that difficult. It all depends on the teacher and the student.

It's a fact that aquirering a new language and script may be one of the most difficult of mental exercises. Again, it boils down to the student/teacher, and their intellectual perspicacity.

In my opinion, the only way to learn Thai is like learning your ABC's. Start with the letters - it will all fall into place. Hey, learn 44 letters - learn 44 words.

P.s. AUA doesn't have clue. DLI does.

[Johpa]

I agree 100 % with sabaijai. It is possible to rank the difficulty of obtaining a language on a scale, but it is important to stress that this difficulty is largely determined by your mother tongue, your general level of education and exposure to foreign languages and culture and your general ability to pick up new languages.= your starting point.

I believe you are correct here. Langauges are ranked in order of learning difficulty relative to the native language.

The US State Department, and despite its many faults maintains a healthy linguistics programs (run by some savvy folk who got an institute based in Monteray, CA), ranks languages in order of difficulty for native English speakers based upon how many average hours of instruction it takes to reach a certain level of proficiency. If I remember correctly there are four primary levels of difficulty and Thai, as well as Chinese, ranks in the third level. Languages ranked in the most difficult level included Russian, Arabic, and Japanese. Clearly the level of inflection is a far more serious matter than is tone.

[Firefoxx]

Then again it all depends on what you call fluent. On a 5-point scale where 5 would be functionally native proficiency, most Thai language learners will have attained no more than level 2 or 2+ after two years of study and immersion. Yet often people I would guess are at that level describe themselves as 'fluent'.

Back in July on this branch there was a thread about what it means to be 'fluent' or proficient in Thai. You might want to have a look.

fluency or proficiency?

It's a sticky topic. If you wanted to find out where you stand according to professional methods of language proficiency evaluation, you could pop by the Peace Corps office on Si Ayuthaya Rd, ask to meet with one of the Thai language  staff trained in administering the FSI oral exam and then make an appointment to be tested after hours. Often the Thai language instructors there moonlight as tutors, so it should be relatively easy to arrange. Ask to see Ajahn Uthai, the head of the Thai training program.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Erm, I don't think that I'll go and take a test just to find out if I'm fluent or not. Let's just say, according to my imperfect standards, I consider myself to be fluent in Thai. That is, if I consider myself to be fluent in English, then I consider my Thai to be at least at the same level. I've always scored an A in English classes as well as Thai classes, but then that doesn't mean much. Perhaps the fact that I'm a very avid bookworm helped speed my learning process (I have several thousand books, both Thai and English, and have read through all at least twice). I can understand everything that I read (if it's not totally specialty-tech-speak) and hear and can understand most Thai jokes. I use Thai 90% of the time now, and think in Thai (yes, in THAI) most of the time, and my English is suffering from misuse (which is one reason I frequent these forums). It's come to point where I have to speak in perfect English to a Thai for him to know that I'm not a native Thai speaker.

In the end, I think I'm fluent enough (when "fluent" means "like any native" and not "an expert in the language that can be be called to testfity in court") to say so without blushing. Others may think as they will, but I'm not about to jump through hoops to change their minds.

[alleypanda]

Firefoxx

โดยส่วนตัวแล้ว ดิฉันไม่คิดว่าผู้ที่ใช้ภาษาอังกฤษเป็นภาษาแม่ จะสามารถพูดภาษาไทยได้อย่างสมบูรณ์ทั้งพูดอ่านเขียน ได้ภายในระยะเวลาสองปีตามที่คุณอ้างถึง เพราะภาษานั้นไม่ได้ตายตัวอยู่ที่กฎหลัก ของการนำไปใช้ หากแต่อยู่ที่ความเข้าใจและคุ้นเคยทางวัฒณธรรมและประเพณี และยังรวมไปถึงระดับของการใช้ภาษา ไม่ว่าจะเป็นการตัดคำ คำพ้องรูป คำพ้องเสียง ที่หากนำไปใช้ผิดที่ ผิดเวลาแล้ว อาจจะทำให้ความหมายเปลี่ยนไปได้ค่ะ

[snowleopard]

Firefoxx

โดยส่วนตัวแล้ว ดิฉันไม่คิดว่าผู้ที่ใช้ภาษาอังกฤษเป็นภาษาแม่ จะสามารถพูดภาษาไทยได้อย่างสมบูรณ์ทั้งพูดอ่านเขียน ได้ภายในระยะเวลาสองปีตามที่คุณอ้างถึง เพราะภาษานั้นไม่ได้ตายตัวอยู่ที่กฎหลัก ของการนำไปใช้ หากแต่อยู่ที่ความเข้าใจและคุ้นเคยทางวัฒณธรรมและประเพณี และยังรวมไปถึงระดับของการใช้ภาษา ไม่ว่าจะเป็นการตัดคำ คำพ้องรูป คำพ้องเสียง ที่หากนำไปใช้ผิดที่ ผิดเวลาแล้ว อาจจะทำให้ความหมายเปลี่ยนไปได้ค่ะ

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

โดยส่วนตัวแล้ว ดิฉันไม่คิดว่าผู้ที่ใช้ภาษาอังกฤษเป็นภาษาแม่ จะสามารถพูดภาษาไทยได้อย่างสมบูรณ์ทั้งพูดอ่านเขียน ได้ภายในระยะเวลาสองปีตามที่คุณอ้างถึง

เขาอ้างถึงสองปีที่นี่แต่สิบปีที่อื่น ผมเห็นด้วย ถ้าจะให้สมบูรณ์สิบปีอาจจะไม่พอ

เพราะภาษานั้นไม่ได้ตายตัวอยู่

ผมคิดว่าทุกภาษาไม่ตายตัว ขึ้นอยู่กับสถานการณ์ ผมพูดได้หลายภาษา ไม่มีภาษาแม่

เสือดาว

[RDN]

.......

บุญมี

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can I ask Boon Mee a question: how come you spell your name that way? Like Booy Mee? My g/f says her dad's name is similar, with a ญ in it, but pronounced like a น, and she doesn't know why it's like that!