38,000 Bht Withheld From House Deposit!

[CLASBYCLAN]

Hi Guys

I rented a house, 9/33 Moo Baan Ing Doi, for one year, I paid a 90,000 bht deposit and 30,000 every month. I had a maid that cleaned the house and used a gardening company that came 3 times a month. Whilst at the property I paid for repairs and any damages. When I left the house was spotless.

I moved house as the landlady wanted us to pay 40,000 bht a month or 30,000 if we would sign a 5 year contract and we would have to pay a 5 year deposit!! I know!! So we simply found a new house.

I was shocked when I went to the bank yesterday to find that the landlady had refunded 52,000 from my 90,000 deposit! I called her and she said that she had to repaint the house, inside and out, repair the garden as the grass was dry and pay an electricity bill, totalling 38,000!!!

Obviously I am angry, I have heard of people not getting their deposits back, and was expecting to loose a few thousand but 38,000!!!

Any advice greatly appreciated!!!!

[Bill97]

Most of the cost was probably for the painting. Did you go back to see if the repainting was done? Do you have any photographs (or possibly witnesses) to verify the condition of the house and garden when you moved in and when you moved out? Something that would stand up in court so that it would be strong enough to possibly cause the landlord to respond or negotiate? Do you have a legal document that describes the deposit and how it will be handled in detail?

I do not think you should end up in court but you do need a case which is more than just your word against theirs. Kind of hard to figure why you should pay for full exterior painting after living there one year.

Next time do not leave such a big deposit or use it up by not paying the last few months rent.

[wolfmanjack]

You will have to sue or at least get a lawyer and threaten to sue. I hope you kept receipts for all the repairs and upkeep.

[kalbo123]

Hi Guys

I rented a house, 9/33 Moo Baan Ing Doi, for one year, I paid a 90,000 bht deposit and 30,000 every month. I had a maid that cleaned the house and used a gardening company that came 3 times a month. Whilst at the property I paid for repairs and any damages. When I left the house was spotless.

I moved house as the landlady wanted us to pay 40,000 bht a month or 30,000 if we would sign a 5 year contract and we would have to pay a 5 year deposit!! I know!! So we simply found a new house.

I was shocked when I went to the bank yesterday to find that the landlady had refunded 52,000 from my 90,000 deposit! I called her and she said that she had to repaint the house, inside and out, repair the garden as the grass was dry and pay an electricity bill, totalling 38,000!!!

Obviously I am angry, I have heard of people not getting their deposits back, and was expecting to loose a few thousand but 38,000!!!

Any advice greatly appreciated!!!!

That woman is rich if she has a house for rent for 30.000 baht a month...

In Thailand that means that you know a lot of important people... the more important people you know........the better it is for her!!!

Just accept you will not get your money back.... learn from this... and the next time just do not pay your last month's of rent....

[CLASBYCLAN]

Most of the cost was probably for the painting. Did you go back to see if the repainting was done? Do you have any photographs (or possibly witnesses) to verify the condition of the house and garden when you moved in and when you moved out? Something that would stand up in court so that it would be strong enough to possibly cause the landlord to respond or negotiate? Do you have a legal document that describes the deposit and how it will be handled in detail?

I do not think you should end up in court but you do need a case which is more than just your word against theirs. Kind of hard to figure why you should pay for full exterior painting after living there one year.

Next time do not leave such a big deposit or use it up by not paying the last few months rent.

Thanks, yes, it sounds like she had a guy come in and do all of the paint work that she wanted to do, and then she has charged me for it. My point is that if you rent a house to a family it will have wear and tear, as the house I have moved into has, I don't think it needed painting at all, and as for the garden, how am I responsible for the weather! She has basically made me pay for completely redecorating the whole house.

[CLASBYCLAN]

That woman is rich if she has a house for rent for 30.000 baht a month...

In Thailand that means that you know a lot of important people... the more important people you know........the better it is for her!!!

Just accept you will not get your money back.... learn from this... and the next time just do not pay your last month's of rent....

I don't know if she is rich, but I know she is a nose and throat doctor! If only I had known about not paying the last months rent, sadly I will definitely be doing that next time! Thank you.

[Greenside]

The typical attitude here held by people who rent things (houses, motorbikes, apartments) seems to be that their asset will not require any maintenance and will not depreciate in any way. This was brought home to me when the kick start fell off a bike I had rented after just a few hours of use - totally nothing to do with me and absolutely down to a missing retaining clip, not easily noticed when checking the bike before renting. The owner simply refused to grasp the concept that the basic maintenance of the bike was down to him and since my passport was being held hostage I had to have it replaced - more of an inconvenience than an expense as it turned out, but a valuable lesson. You have to wonder what would happen if they had given me the bike on a one day rental with insufficient oil - you have been warned!

As far as houses go, a really meticulous inventory with lots of pictures is about the best you can rely on. I'm surprised she can claim the garden is dry in the middle of the rainy season even though it's not been that wet this year. Also, a landlord trying to put up the rent by 30% in today's climate sounds a little unrealistic in any case unless you got some kind of a first year deal.

[miltonbentley]

I had exactly the same situation when I moved out in March. We had looked after the house, paid for repairs but similarly a Hi-So Thai and he wanted hi house totally repainted and cost us two thirds of our deposit.

You have my utmost sympathy ClasbyClan - it is a total rip-off pure and simple.

However I think the chances of you getting anything back even if you have the best lawyer in town is absolutely minimal. My advice is to walk away however angry you feel.

I take my pleasure from the fact that we would have stayed at our old house if the landlord had not wanted to put the rent up and it still empty 4 months after we left. Even if he gets tenants in at the higher rent tomorrow it will take him three and a half years to make his money back from the time the house has been empty.

[CLASBYCLAN]

The typical attitude here held by people who rent things (houses, motorbikes, apartments) seems to be that their asset will not require any maintenance and will not depreciate in any way. This was brought home to me when the kick start fell off a bike I had rented after just a few hours of use - totally nothing to do with me and absolutely down to a missing retaining clip, not easily noticed when checking the bike before renting. The owner simply refused to grasp the concept that the basic maintenance of the bike was down to him and since my passport was being held hostage I had to have it replaced - more of an inconvenience than an expense as it turned out, but a valuable lesson. You have to wonder what would happen if they had given me the bike on a one day rental with insufficient oil - you have been warned!

As far as houses go, a really meticulous inventory with lots of pictures is about the best you can rely on. I'm surprised she can claim the garden is dry in the middle of the rainy season even though it's not been that wet this year. Also, a landlord trying to put up the rent by 30% in today's climate sounds a little unrealistic in any case unless you got some kind of a first year deal.

Yes Greenside! That is exactly my point! things depreciate, and the sad fact is that we only decided to move because of the 30% increase in rent, when we told her that we had found another house she said "ok I will keep the rent the same" , realising that she had made a mistake, but it was too late as I had already placed a deposit for the new house, luckily only a two month deposit this time!!!

[Ajarn]

A tough lesson... It seems to me that you were foolish for a couple of things. The rent and the deposit. The only thing you could have done to protect yourself was not pay the rent at least a couple of months before then end. I'd be pissed, too, but I doubt you will see the money again...

[CLASBYCLAN]

I had exactly the same situation when I moved out in March. We had looked after the house, paid for repairs but similarly a Hi-So Thai and he wanted hi house totally repainted and cost us two thirds of our deposit.

You have my utmost sympathy ClasbyClan - it is a total rip-off pure and simple.

However I think the chances of you getting anything back even if you have the best lawyer in town is absolutely minimal. My advice is to walk away however angry you feel.

I take my pleasure from the fact that we would have stayed at our old house if the landlord had not wanted to put the rent up and it still empty 4 months after we left. Even if he gets tenants in at the higher rent tomorrow it will take him three and a half years to make his money back from the time the house has been empty.

Hey Miltonbentely, sounds like exactly the same situation and I do feel ripped off! I thought that we had a good relationship as well and I even posted an add on the classified email advertising the house, now I hope that no one gives her the satisfaction of rental income! I think your right about not going to court, think I'll just pour myself a large glass of wine instead!!

[mcgriffith]

Hey Miltonbentely, sounds like exactly the same situation and I do feel ripped off! I thought that we had a good relationship as well and I even posted an add on the classified email advertising the house, now I hope that no one gives her the satisfaction of rental income! I think your right about not going to court, think I'll just pour myself a large glass of wine instead!!

Ahem...if that ad is on Thai Visa's classified ad section, I would be happy to get it deleted.....

[CLASBYCLAN]

Hey Miltonbentely, sounds like exactly the same situation and I do feel ripped off! I thought that we had a good relationship as well and I even posted an add on the classified email advertising the house, now I hope that no one gives her the satisfaction of rental income! I think your right about not going to court, think I'll just pour myself a large glass of wine instead!!

Ahem...if that ad is on Thai Visa's classified ad section, I would be happy to get it deleted.....

No it's not, its on the chiang mai classified email, I will delete it.

[miltonbentley]

I had exactly the same situation when I moved out in March. We had looked after the house, paid for repairs but similarly a Hi-So Thai and he wanted hi house totally repainted and cost us two thirds of our deposit.

You have my utmost sympathy ClasbyClan - it is a total rip-off pure and simple.

However I think the chances of you getting anything back even if you have the best lawyer in town is absolutely minimal. My advice is to walk away however angry you feel.

I take my pleasure from the fact that we would have stayed at our old house if the landlord had not wanted to put the rent up and it still empty 4 months after we left. Even if he gets tenants in at the higher rent tomorrow it will take him three and a half years to make his money back from the time the house has been empty.

Hey Miltonbentely, sounds like exactly the same situation and I do feel ripped off! I thought that we had a good relationship as well and I even posted an add on the classified email advertising the house, now I hope that no one gives her the satisfaction of rental income! I think your right about not going to court, think I'll just pour myself a large glass of wine instead!!

Come to Tuskers and I'll buy you one and we can have a happy bitching session about Thai landlords.

For others reading the thread who are looking to rent Greensides advice on a meticulous inventory and pictures when moving in is worth it if you want your deposit back. It is also worth having in writing what is reasonable wear and tear before you sign a contract. If landlords are keen to rent (and in this climate they are) you will have a lot more leverage on what goes in the contract. As Clasbyclan and I found out you have nothing to leverage when you leave.

[slapout]

The trails and tribulations of doing business in Thailand. Why not have a walk thru with the lady prior to moving out? If you put down 90,000 as a deposit on a 30,000/ month rental you were ill informed of Thai law concerning rental property, deposits etc. Someone mentioned the lady (landlord) must be wealthy to own a property renting for 30,000/mo. I am more inclined to view her as a astute business lady who will charge and handle baht as the market will bear, in your case its a heavy load. depending on your pocket book etc. I think you have probably learned a few things from this experience. Sorry for the lack of sympathy, but did you read the contract and or ask for advice before moving in? If you gave notice of moving out the first and last months rent would have been used and only deposit would have been in question.

[CLASBYCLAN]

The trails and tribulations of doing business in Thailand. Why not have a walk thru with the lady prior to moving out? If you put down 90,000 as a deposit on a 30,000/ month rental you were ill informed of Thai law concerning rental property, deposits etc. Someone mentioned the lady (landlord) must be wealthy to own a property renting for 30,000/mo. I am more inclined to view her as a astute business lady who will charge and handle baht as the market will bear, in your case its a heavy load. depending on your pocket book etc. I think you have probably learned a few things from this experience. Sorry for the lack of sympathy, but did you read the contract and or ask for advice before moving in? If you gave notice of moving out the first and last months rent would have been used and only deposit would have been in question.

I did walk through the house with her, the first point she made was that a light on the drive did not come on, I said that maybe the bulb had gone, she said she would get her electrician to come and give her a quote to fix it, at which point I realised that she was going to be, for want of a better word, a dick. She did not point out any other problems with the house.

How was I I'll informed, she wanted a three month deposit, I paid it, In England the deposit is returned after you leave the property. I gave her at least two months notice, just encase there was a problem, even though the contract does not state that I need to do so.

[Tyke]

A tough lesson... It seems to me that you were foolish for a couple of things. The rent and the deposit. The only thing you could have done to protect yourself was not pay the rent at least a couple of months before then end. I'd be pissed, too, but I doubt you will see the money again...

But can't they evict you if you stop paying the rent for the last 2 months? Surely, they could get a court order or something after even a few days - and if successful, could mean you are breaking the law and could get deported? isn't this a risk?

[Tyke]

The trails and tribulations of doing business in Thailand. Why not have a walk thru with the lady prior to moving out? If you put down 90,000 as a deposit on a 30,000/ month rental you were ill informed of Thai law concerning rental property, deposits etc. Someone mentioned the lady (landlord) must be wealthy to own a property renting for 30,000/mo. I am more inclined to view her as a astute business lady who will charge and handle baht as the market will bear, in your case its a heavy load. depending on your pocket book etc. I think you have probably learned a few things from this experience. Sorry for the lack of sympathy, but did you read the contract and or ask for advice before moving in? If you gave notice of moving out the first and last months rent would have been used and only deposit would have been in question.

So what does Thai law state in this case then?

[slapout]

Did you ask a reliable source, lawyer, realtor etc what the normal deposit is on a Thai rental? Did you offer to replace the burned out light? This is not England as you know and business practices are not the same. Deposits any where are returned after repair, replacement etc are deducted. When I was approached for a large deposit, I asked the landlord to pay intrest on my money during the rental time, the amount became 1 month rent instead of 2. The Thai people with property appear to have good business minds in some ways, you just have to use their thinking and (reasoning????) to help yourself. Non payment of the electric bill is not a good way to leave a rental property. Egat shuts electric off quickly here and charges a re-connect fee. sympathy, not yet, but I do understand where your coming from, life is not fair and not here for sure.

[Tyke]

Hi Guys

I rented a house, 9/33 Moo Baan Ing Doi, for one year, I paid a 90,000 bht deposit and 30,000 every month. I had a maid that cleaned the house and used a gardening company that came 3 times a month. Whilst at the property I paid for repairs and any damages. When I left the house was spotless.

I moved house as the landlady wanted us to pay 40,000 bht a month or 30,000 if we would sign a 5 year contract and we would have to pay a 5 year deposit!! I know!! So we simply found a new house.

I was shocked when I went to the bank yesterday to find that the landlady had refunded 52,000 from my 90,000 deposit! I called her and she said that she had to repaint the house, inside and out, repair the garden as the grass was dry and pay an electricity bill, totalling 38,000!!!

Obviously I am angry, I have heard of people not getting their deposits back, and was expecting to loose a few thousand but 38,000!!!

Any advice greatly appreciated!!!!

I might suggest a bit of a nudge here. In all likelihood, she won't be paying tax on the rent, and she should do, so I suggest you make up some story about you having to declare your rent and the address of the property to the Thai tax authorities immediately due to some kind of obligation in your work contract/visa/tax code in the UK/mutual tax agreement or whatever to make it sound like you are not doing it to get at her. You might find that the bitch will come running to your door with the whole amount in a brown paper bag.

[Bill97]

How was I I'll informed, ............., In England

[slapout]

Tyke; It goes back to orginal rental contract, wording etc. The questions you are asking I will not attempt to answer as I dont know length of time for eviction and I sure dont know on deporting for lack of payment. Probably depends on the landlords connection. enforcers avaliable, amount owed etc. I have been told that deposit is limited to monthly rental fee, but as I mentioned earlier I would suggest a lawyer or a bonified real estate company to answer questions prior to signing papers and putting up monies with a individual.

[meadish_sweetball]

You have my sympathy at any rate.

We can't all know everything from the start, and it isn't a fun lesson to learn.

[Bill97]

I might suggest a bit of a nudge here. In all likelihood, she won't be paying tax on the rent, and she should do, so I suggest you make up some story about you having to declare your rent and the address of the property to the Thai tax authorities immediately due to some kind of obligation in your work contract/visa/tax code in the UK/mutual tax agreement or whatever to make it sound like you are not doing it to get at her. You might find that the bitch will come running to your door with the whole amount in a brown paper bag.

Or you might find someone she indirectly sent at your door with something you would really prefer not to receive.

As others have advised, you paid for an experience that you learned from, now cherish what you learned and forget the money, it is water under the bridge.

[likite]

Clasbyclan you have my sympathy here as a similar thing happened to me, although not involving the amounts that you are quoting.

Everybody can be wise after an event and naturally on this forum there are many who will go out of the way to tell you what you should have done.

I wouldn't be too quick to give up on this, not least because of the sums involved. The idea of making a fuss with regard to the Thai Tax authorities is a very good ploy and done on a very subtle basis is one that could well work towards resolving this. A Thai landlord I dealt with was not at all keen that the Tax authorities might get wind of the undeclared income!!

You could also try involving a complaint to the police, although unless you know someone in the police they may well be reluctant to get involved in what they see as a civil affair. I personally used this once and the police did ring the landlord, so it worth a try.

I would also try a lawyer and see if a suitably worded letter might have an effect (all bluff maybe, but the other party might just not want any hassle).

I rent a house at the moment and one thing I will do is politely ask that when I hand over the keys I will expect the return of the deposit at the same time. No deposit no keys not unreasonable.

Lastly unless you have rented from the mafia which apparently you did not, I would not worry about unexpected surprises turning up on your doorstep.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

[Ajarn]

A tough lesson... It seems to me that you were foolish for a couple of things. The rent and the deposit. The only thing you could have done to protect yourself was not pay the rent at least a couple of months before then end. I'd be pissed, too, but I doubt you will see the money again...

But can't they evict you if you stop paying the rent for the last 2 months? Surely, they could get a court order or something after even a few days - and if successful, could mean you are breaking the law and could get deported? isn't this a risk?

In the worst case scenario in a thai civil case, pay up, you are forgiven. Though I have never even heard of something like this happening in two months (more like two years), "Farangs should always follow ever law here very carefully. And cower in fear, because anything bad you do will get you permanetly kicked out"

[Ajarn]

The trails and tribulations of doing business in Thailand. Why not have a walk thru with the lady prior to moving out? If you put down 90,000 as a deposit on a 30,000/ month rental you were ill informed of Thai law concerning rental property, deposits etc. Someone mentioned the lady (landlord) must be wealthy to own a property renting for 30,000/mo. I am more inclined to view her as a astute business lady who will charge and handle baht as the market will bear, in your case its a heavy load. depending on your pocket book etc. I think you have probably learned a few things from this experience. Sorry for the lack of sympathy, but did you read the contract and or ask for advice before moving in? If you gave notice of moving out the first and last months rent would have been used and only deposit would have been in question.

So what does Thai law state in this case then?

The Thai law does not state anything regarding the size of deposits, or the price of rent...

Edited July 31, 2008 by Ajarn

[Loaded]

You don't hand back the keys and move house until the deposit is returned. If the deposit isn't returned, you stop paying rent and stay rent free until she makes a move using the civil courts - that should give you a couple of years when she is stressed and out of pocket. Seems simple to me.

[Steve2UK]

Last year, I finished a 1-year rental which involved a 100,000 baht deposit - which the contract stated would be returned within 2 months of completion of the term subject only to deductions for damage and outstanding bills. Aside from the fact that I had to call the landlord and nag him when the money wasn't transferred into my account by the end of that period, he did return the full amount (less a couple of thousand for bills I knew about).

Too late to help you, but maybe a helpful pointer for future situations: after he completed a walk-round inspection of the property, I gave him a statement to sign which confirmed that there were no damages and that therefore only valid outstanding bills could be deducted from the deposit. He was hesitant about signing it but eventually did - I guess he couldn't think of a reason not to. In preparing the statement, I wasn't really imagining that it carried any additional legal weight in a Thai court. Against that, I do think it reinforced the notion in his mind that I'm meticulous about these things and that that (possibly) would deter him from trying any tricks - I had also previously prepared receipts etc for him to sign for every stage of the contract.

Unless the tenant's deposit is held by a third party or legally regarded as if it is (as is the norm with UK agents), I don't see how anything short of court action (however uncertain that route might be) is going to resolve this kind of situation. That said, I do think that our chances of avoiding the situation are improved by being overtly meticulous at every stage.

Sorry for your misfortune.

[Tyke]

A tough lesson... It seems to me that you were foolish for a couple of things. The rent and the deposit. The only thing you could have done to protect yourself was not pay the rent at least a couple of months before then end. I'd be pissed, too, but I doubt you will see the money again...

But can't they evict you if you stop paying the rent for the last 2 months? Surely, they could get a court order or something after even a few days - and if successful, could mean you are breaking the law and could get deported? isn't this a risk?

In the worst case scenario in a thai civil case, pay up, you are forgiven. Though I have never even heard of something like this happening in two months (more like two years), "Farangs should always follow ever law here very carefully. And cower in fear, because anything bad you do will get you permanetly kicked out"

What's the "cower in fear" all about? It's a suggestion for consideration, not a capitulation.