Rs And Ls

[chickencurry]

Okay I'm a learner here and not posted on the language forum before, so please be gentle with me I'm sure this has been asked many times but impossible to find on the search facility (Rs, Ls).

I know that many Thais pronounce Rs as Ls. Where I live in Phuket most of the "locals" seem to do this so I have been going with the flow and pronouncing Rs as Ls, especially as some people correct me to an L if I pronounce an R.

Yesterday I tried some small talk on my greengrocer - it was a hot day - Lawn mahk mahk I said. She said RRRRRRawn. But some people say Lawn I said. She said Ha Ha Ha RRRRRRRRRRawn.

What to do please?

[riga]

Okay I'm a learner here and not posted on the language forum before, so please be gentle with me I'm sure this has been asked many times but impossible to find on the search facility (Rs, Ls).

I know that many Thais pronounce Rs as Ls. Where I live in Phuket most of the "locals" seem to do this so I have been going with the flow and pronouncing Rs as Ls, especially as some people correct me to an L if I pronounce an R.

Yesterday I tried some small talk on my greengrocer - it was a hot day - Lawn mahk mahk I said. She said RRRRRRawn. But some people say Lawn I said. She said Ha Ha Ha RRRRRRRRRRawn.

What to do please?

Any dictionary that gives a phonetic transcription of the thai words in romans letters will use R to transcript the thai letter ร and L for the letters ล and ฬ (when they are initial consonants of a syllable, because when they are final consonants both are transcripted and pronounced as N)*.

That's how words should be pronounced correctly and how you will hear them when listening to news and reportages on the radio or on TV.

In the everyday language most people, as you stated, will pronounce L instead of R but as a foreigner and a learner you should probably avoid it and go with the correct pronunciation. I think that nobody will correct you if you use R with the right words, they will correct you only if you use R instead of L when L is the only alternative (correct pronunciation).

What happened with your greengrocer is a bit of fun, because she surely understood what you were saying, but wanted to joke a little bit with you pointing out that the correct pronunciation of the word ร้อน (ron) is with the R sound.

* Be aware that ร can be tricky in some cases, leading to a different sounds or no sounds when in clusters.

Also, as you have probably noticed ร and ล in some cases (when in consonant clusters) are often not pronounced: ครับ (krap) becomes คับ (Kap), ไกล (klai) often pronounced (kai).....

Edited August 6, 2008 by riga

[AjarnP]

ไกล (klai) often pronounced (kai).....[/size]

Didn't someone write a song once about losing the Lor Ling? I bet Mangkorn remembers it.

[DavidHouston]

Chicken Curry,

I live in Phuket also, in fact, just North of you. I hear lots of Southern Thai being spoken and I rarely hear L's being substituted for R's. Please allow me to make some observations:

1. The R/L substitution is more common in some words than in others. For example both "Lard Naa" and "Raad Naa" are used for the noodle dish of that name. Other words are almost never restated that manner. In the case of your word, I have never heard "rohn" stated as "lohn", perhaps because the vowel is so long, the consonant gets stated very clearly.

2. L's tend to be substituted in place of R's when in the middle of a word. One hears "pitchalana" for "to consider" when Thais are speaking moderately quickly. When the speak really quickly, the word comes out "pit'na".

3. The Thai R has a different sound production than the English or American R. Ours is a semi-vowel produced in the throat; the Thai is produced forward in the mouth with the tongue forward, similar to the R in some European languages. In some Thai songs of recent vintage, one hears the Thai R pronounced like the English R which is very disconcerting to the listener, to say the least.

4. I found a Thai book in the Seng Ho bookstore in downtown Phuket pointing out which Thai words are often mispronounced or misspelled on the basis of R and L differences. The existence of a book like this indicates that Thais are well aware of their problems and the most fastidious amoung them are very concerned.

5. When listening to Thai radio, especially Radio Parliament, one often hears R and L differences, mostly substitution of the latter for the former and mostly amoung older Thai guys.

All in all I would say that you should try to pronounce R and L words as correctly as you can, and leave the language slippage to the Thais.

Welcome to the Language forum; please come back and post again. Mostly, people are very gentle here.

[mangkorn]

In the case of your word, I have never heard "rohn" stated as "lohn", perhaps because the vowel is so long, the consonant gets stated very clearly.

To my ear, "laawn" seems to be the most common pronunciation, rather then "raawn" - although, as you say, the difference is more subtle than the difference between "L" and "R" in English words.

[mangkorn]

I found a Thai book in the Seng Ho bookstore in downtown Phuket pointing out which Thai words are often mispronounced or misspelled on the basis of R and L differences. The existence of a book like this indicates that Thais are well aware of their problems and the most fastidious amoung them are very concerned.

David, what is the title of that book? I'm going to the Chula bookstore, and that sounds like a good one to get.

[chickencurry]

Thank you everyone - I think I shall go for Rs as Rs and will keep note of any middle of the word deviations. Yes I know my greengrocer was having a slight bit of fun by exagerating the Rs - she's a cheery soul!

I've just started on the Thai for Beginners (Paiboon books) but only up to lesson 3 so far, so a long way to go. Will revisit this forum again - kop khun kaar

[withnail]

อย่่างไรก็ตาม หน่งยเสียง /r/ เริ่มสูญไปจากภาษาไทย โดยกลายไปรวมเป็นหน่วยเสียง /l/

The /r/, however, is gradually disappearing from present Thai as it is usually pronounced as /l/.

Taken from the Oxford River Books English - Thai Dictionary's article "Characteristics of the Thai Language"

Anant Laulertvorakul

Department of Thai, Faculty of Arts, Chulalongkorn University

B.A. (First Class Honors) Eastern Languages , Chulalongkorn University,1991

M.A. Eastern Languages , Chulalongkorn University,1996

Ph.D. Thai , Chulalongkorn University ,2003

This discussion always annoys me a bit, more so when someone says "Why do people say/write falang when it should be farang?" The answer is because that is what they have heard.

David is right when he points out that the Thai /r/ has a different sound production than the English or American R. In my experience, I have never, ever, heard the Thai consonant ร pronounced the same as my English R other than perhaps, as he also points out, in modern popular music.

I do occasionally hear the ร pronounced correctly but mainly on TV, or by Thai have a go linguists trying to teach you to speak properly seconds before they stop doing so themselves. I think I can do a half-decent รอ เรือ but not perfect, but my advice if you can't would probably not be to say R instead of L, but rather to say L as everyone else does, be understood all the time and corrected once a year by someone.

[garro]

อย่่างไรก็ตาม หน่งยเสียง /r/ เริ่มสูญไปจากภาษาไทย โดยกลายไปรวมเป็นหน่วยเสียง /l/

The /r/, however, is gradually disappearing from present Thai as it is usually pronounced as /l/.

Taken from the Oxford River Books English - Thai Dictionary's article "Characteristics of the Thai Language"

Anant Laulertvorakul

Department of Thai, Faculty of Arts, Chulalongkorn University

B.A. (First Class Honors) Eastern Languages , Chulalongkorn University,1991

M.A. Eastern Languages , Chulalongkorn University,1996

Ph.D. Thai , Chulalongkorn University ,2003

This discussion always annoys me a bit, more so when someone says "Why do people say/write falang when it should be farang?" The answer is because that is what they have heard.

David is right when he points out that the Thai /r/ has a different sound production than the English or American R. In my experience, I have never, ever, heard the Thai consonant ร pronounced the same as my English R other than perhaps, as he also points out, in modern popular music.

I do occasionally hear the ร pronounced correctly but mainly on TV, or by Thai have a go linguists trying to teach you to speak properly seconds before they stop doing so themselves. I think I can do a half-decent รอ เรือ but not perfect, but my advice if you can't would probably not be to say R instead of L, but rather to say L as everyone else does, be understood all the time and corrected once a year by someone.

I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of Thai Whitenail - especially as you passed the P6 exam . I disagree with you though in that I hear the 'r' sound used a lot more frequently than you suggest. Like most countries Thailand has a variety of ways of speaking with some places using more of an 'r' sound and some more of an 'l' sound. I would say that most westerners are better trying for the 'r' sound as the 'l' sound often sounds contrived when they attempt this.

As regards to the frequently mentioned use of 'farang', fareng. falang, and falung in writing, I also disagree with you. I can't say that there are many romanized Thai words that sound correct and this is why it is better to read Thai. If we are going to romanize though I think it is better to stick to one style to avoid confusion. The one the the Thai authorities seem to prefer is the one provided by the Royal Thai Institute where the ร is written 'r'. Of course if our aim is teaching pronunciation then we should select the style that sound best to us and stick to that one.

Edited August 6, 2008 by garro

[withnail]

I don't disagree with you Garro, perhaps I should have said "often", rather than "but mainly on TV". Also, I'm not suggesting that the word ฝรั่ง should be transcribed any other way than farang, I was referring to the correcting of the transcription falang to farang by learners of Thai in situations where it isn't really important.

[Naam]

Okay I'm a learner here and not posted on the language forum before, so please be gentle with me I'm sure this has been asked many times but impossible to find on the search facility (Rs, Ls).

I know that many Thais pronounce Rs as Ls. Where I live in Phuket most of the "locals" seem to do this so I have been going with the flow and pronouncing Rs as Ls, especially as some people correct me to an L if I pronounce an R.

Yesterday I tried some small talk on my greengrocer - it was a hot day - Lawn mahk mahk I said. She said RRRRRRawn. But some people say Lawn I said. She said Ha Ha Ha RRRRRRRRRRawn.

What to do please?

take it easy and say "soRRRy, thai mai RRRRoo RRRRong RRRRoy"

[MrHerb]

I don't disagree with you Garro, perhaps I should have said "often", rather than "but mainly on TV". Also, I'm not suggesting that the word ฝรั่ง should be transcribed any other way than farang, I was referring to the correcting of the transcription falang to farang by learners of Thai in situations where it isn't really important.

Our Thai teacher often exaggerates the RRR sound when teaching us new words, then goes on to say that if she spoke like this among her Thai friends they would laugh at the way she was speaking. So I don't know, but I always try to pronounce the ร as Rrr as I've been misunderstood when I tried to say รอ (wait) with an L sound even though that's the way I hear it.

[riga]

Our Thai teacher often exaggerates the RRR sound when teaching us new words, then goes on to say that if she spoke like this among her Thai friends they would laugh at the way she was speaking. So I don't know, but I always try to pronounce the ร as Rrr as I've been misunderstood when I tried to say รอ (wait) with an L sound even though that's the way I hear it.

What was explained to me once was that if a thai person in informal situations speaks pronouncing the r sound properly will bu judged by others as a person that like to show off, to give himself "an attitude", to be uppish (I can't really find the proper english expression).

For foregniers is different: we are learning and trying to speak another language and pronouncing the words properly with the R will be considered normal and will help us avoiding confusion.

As for รอ pronounced with L was not understood it was probably more a problem of tone or vowel lenght pronunciation, but surely pronounced with R could help the listener to understand what you mean even if the pronunciation is not perfect

[thithi]

Thai people got lazy tongue. Even my Thai teachers do pronounce the R as the L most of the time.

and some think pronouncing the R everytime sounds gay or weird so they avoid pronouncing it lol. tho i dnt agree with that i do forget to pronounce the r sometimes heheheh

[meadish_sweetball]

I think it is a case of 'do as I say and not as I do'.

Just as Withnail's dictionary reference points out, the Thai language is in the process of losing the distinction between the two sounds. (This change has already been accepted in Laos, and the Lao seemed to be doing ok without it last time I visited.)

Since a large majority of the educated population are rather conservative, language change is seen as a bad thing, and thus, it has been decided to try to enforce the distinction between the sounds in school.

The problem of course, just like thithi says, is that most teachers do not have this clear distinction naturally in their own speech, and so they will slip too, as soon as they are off-guard... or hyper-correct (= to erroneously pronounce ล ฬ as ร), which is a rather common phenomenon when people who are not used to a language or speaking style try so hard to imitate it, they overcompensate which causes errors.

You may have heard Swedes talk about 'getting a wisa' for example - this reflects the fact that initial 'w' in Swedish sounds like 'v' in English. When we first learn English it is difficult for us to maintain the distinction between the sounds, so in order to try to sound as English as possible, hypercorrection of /v/ into /w/ occurs.

Wery well, I hope that is all clear now.

Returning to Thai, it is true that a clear distinction between the two sounds does help avoid confusion, however, in reality, I have never witnessed two Thais misunderstanding each other due to confusing the two sounds. It is only in TV sitcoms such things are used for comic effect.

[Richard W]

Just as Withnail's dictionary reference points out, the Thai language is in the process of losing the distinction between the two sounds. (This change has already been accepted in Laos, and the Lao seemed to be doing ok without it last time I visited.)

Actually, the other SW Tai languages merge /r/ with /h/. It's only in Indic, or at least, foreign, words that you get /l/ for <r> in Lao and Northern Thai.

[mangkorn]

Actually, the other SW Tai languages merge /r/ with /h/. It's only in Indic, or at least, foreign, words that you get /l/ for <r> in Lao and Northern Thai.

Good point. For example, the Lao word for "love" is "hak" - same high tone as the Thai "rak."

[Richard W]

Actually, the other SW Tai languages merge /r/ with /h/. It's only in Indic, or at least, foreign, words that you get /l/ for <r> in Lao and Northern Thai.

Good point. For example, the Lao word for "love" is "hak" - same high tone as the Thai "rak."

Which reminds me that the words are mostly kept apart by tone - Proto-(SW-)Tai *h yields a high class consonant while Proto-(SW-)Tai *r yields a low class consonant - indeed, this is the origin of some Siamese words in ฮ, such as ฮัก. Proto-Tai *hr seems to have become /h/ in all SW Tai dialects but Ahom.

[Murf]

I've always had the understanding that 'ร' is not pronounced with the tongue in the same place as the English 'r' but further forward to the front of the mouth, quite close to where we pronounce the 'l' but then try and make the 'r' sound...