Interesting Toshiba Lcd Tv

[Florin]

Last week I bought a Toshiba 32'' LCD TV from Emporium for 19.900 (plus a 500 Baht voucher redeemable at any Mall/Paragon/Emporium store, so basically the set cost 19.400).

The model number is "32AV500T"...the specs for Thailand seem to be the ones seen here: http://www.sinsiamelectronics.com/catalog/...mp;osCsid=9ec29

However...on display in Emporium they had cut out "HD-Ready" from the descriptive flyer and the guy assured me it was in fact a 1080p (i.e. FullHD) display - he even selected this resolution from an HDMI video splitter and it worked. Nowhere on the box or on the set does it say FullHD...also, the print manual is generic for 6-7 similar models and basically has the spec info that can also be seen in the link above. Googling for my model didn't reveal anything new (except for an almost complete lack of info/reviews about this model) and yet I can happily run it at 1080p! I use an HDMI connection to my desktop PC and the ATI software allows me to select 1920x1080 resolution in either i/p and 24/50/60Hz refresh rate.

I had a 720p/1080i-compatible plasma before and the difference is definitely visible with the naked eye and since I'm running a PC, I doubt it is doing any hidden downscaling, I definitely have the desktop real-estate corresponding to 1920x1080 resolution and video runs smoothly, so I assume it is progressive scan.

If this is really the case, I think 19.400 for a FullHD display is quite a nice price! But the lack of any consistent info is quite puzzling...

[LivinLOS]

I will be amazed if it is 1920x1080 at that price..

Dont confuse taking a 1080p signal and displaying a 1080p resultion without downscaling.. Two totally different things.

[LivinLOS]

In Fact just clicked the link..

WXGA Panel : 1366 x 768

Says it exactly.

In my local shop they are even taking the 'Full 1080' cardboard advertizing surrounds that stick on the demo TV's and just sticking them on any old TV.. When I pointed out to one of the shop assistant guys that they cant just stick a 'full 1080' sticker on non 1080 TV's I just got that blank look, that 'dog thats just been shown a card trick' look that says 'does not compute'.

[Florin]

But hold on, if it's downscaling, how come the window sizes in Windows correspond to that resolution? My normal LCD monitor that is connected to the PC is 1680x1050 and everything is clearly bigger than on the Toshiba...even the wallpaper, a centered 1680x1050 image, has black borders around it on the Toshiba, corresponding to having extra resolution, no?

And yeah, I know what the link reads, but it seems that depending on the country/market they have different specs for the same product...for example, the only Western reference I can see about the 32AV500 is a spring press release in which they even state that it has 1 HDMI port, whereas my set clearly has 2.

Confusing? Definitely...but I don't think the PC utilities would lie...I know what "1080p-ready" is, it's what you mentioned, taking a 1080p signal and downscaling it...and I do believe that with DVD players and "1080p-ready" LCDs even if you choose 1080p that might happen...but do PCs really lie? How?

Edited August 6, 2008 by Florin

[Sophon]

But hold on, if it's downscaling, how come the window sizes in Windows correspond to that resolution? My normal LCD monitor that is connected to the PC is 1680x1050 and everything is clearly bigger than on the Toshiba...even the wallpaper, a centered 1680x1050 image, has black borders around it on the Toshiba, corresponding to having extra resolution, no?

And yeah, I know what the link reads, but it seems that depending on the country/market they have different specs for the same product...for example, the only Western reference I can see about the 32AV500 is a spring press release in which they even state that it has 1 HDMI port, whereas my set clearly has 2.

Confusing? Definitely...but I don't think the PC utilities would lie...I know what "1080p-ready" is, it's what you mentioned, taking a 1080p signal and downscaling it...and I do believe that with DVD players and "1080p-ready" LCDs even if you choose 1080p that might happen...but do PCs really lie? How?

Trying to display 1680x1050 on a 1366x768 TV I guess your TV would have to "pretend" to be full HD and downscale the signal. In that case the signal from your computer would be smaller on your TV than on your computer.

I also seriously doubt that your TV is 1080p at that price. Yes, different regions have slightly different specifications but the major things like the display are the same. I googled 32AV500 and got plenty of hits, all of them (at least the ones I checked) saying that the resolution is 1366x768.

Sophon

Edited August 6, 2008 by Sophon

[Florin]

I'm not trying to display 1680x1050 on it...my configuration is as follows:

Radeon 3650 video card on a desktop PC with DVI & HDMI ports:

Port 1: Samsung 20'' PC LCD monitor running @ 1680x1050

Port 2: Toshiba 32AV500T running @ 1920x1080 in Extended Desktop mode

I definitely could not select this kind of resolution on my previous plasma...it was specced as 1280x1024 max and that was the most the ATI drivers would allow me to select (I actually kept it at 1280x720), trying to force a higher resolution would result in no image being displayed (same as when you select too high settings on a PC monitor).

Has anyone tried to connect a 32'' LCD to their laptop/desktop? If it was specced as 1366x768, did you have access to higher resolutions?

I haven't even forced any settings, Vista automatically allows me to select 1920x1080 in Display Properties.

[LivinLOS]

I'm not trying to display 1680x1050 on it...my configuration is as follows:

Radeon 3650 video card on a desktop PC with DVI & HDMI ports:

Port 1: Samsung 20'' PC LCD monitor running @ 1680x1050

Port 2: Toshiba 32AV500T running @ 1920x1080 in Extended Desktop mode

I definitely could not select this kind of resolution on my previous plasma...it was specced as 1280x1024 max and that was the most the ATI drivers would allow me to select (I actually kept it at 1280x720), trying to force a higher resolution would result in no image being displayed (same as when you select too high settings on a PC monitor).

Has anyone tried to connect a 32'' LCD to their laptop/desktop? If it was specced as 1366x768, did you have access to higher resolutions?

I haven't even forced any settings, Vista automatically allows me to select 1920x1080 in Display Properties.

Yes many TV's will take higher resolutions and downscale them.. If you know what to look for you can usually see scaling by eye...

Also if your running that connection by DVI or HDMI how would the screen know your not feeing it 1080p from a game console or high def device (or upscaling DVD) of course it has to downscale a 1080p signal and display it, thats what '1080 ready' does !!! It takes the 080 signal from anything and downscales to the panel.

The resolution your PC will output does not tell you the resolution of the display.. Many displays have crappy drivers or handshaking and need to be forced with powerstrip etc.

I will bet good money that its what the specs say it is.. no way in hel_l thats a 1080p panel at 20k when the specs say its not !! Still 1080p is overkill on a 32 inch screen..

[Florin]

OK, so if that's the case, what would be the tell-tale signs of downscaling on the display itself?

[LivinLOS]

If you can get a 1x1 checkerboard back white pixel matrix (I will see if I cant find one, used to have them for phase and tracking calibration of projectors with HTPC's) then tile that on the screen and it will show immediately..

By eye, if you look at text and fonts you know, you should be able to see the edges / jaggyness of compression scaling.. Its basically the fine edges where stairstepping will occur.. Looking at a 1080p video source you want to closely look at things like car radiator grills or window blinds.. Those things usually exhibit the artifacts I mean most readily.. As with any annoying video artifact its often best not to train your eye to see them as once you do your cursed with seeing the issue all the time.

[Florin]

Yeah, I'd be very curious to find out for sure, I did see the specs before buying and considered any 1080p capability a bonus...

[LivinLOS]

Heres one..

Put that on the desktop background.. Tile the image so it covers the whole desktop.. When 1:1 pixel mapping is working correctly you have clean non banding shades of grey that up close you can actually define each pixel.. When scaling is happening you will see bands as the scaling has pixels of the same color next to each other (2 black or 2 white) as it downscales the 1920x1080 PC output down to the 1365x768 display.

[Florin]

Thanks for that, I'll have a look tonight and report the findings...I'll also post a macro picture of part of the display just to make sure.

[Florin]

OK, so you were right, there is banding...but at every resolution

1366x768 wasn't even on the list, I forced it in Powerstrip, but it still doesn't yield the correct result...

[LivinLOS]

Are you connecting over RGBHV (VGA), DVI or HDMI ??

If digital (DVI or HDMI) then mess around with 1365x768.. See if the standard timings for that work, and if so see if the TV has a stretch mode enabled, look for 'full' or direct or similar in the aspect ratio choices.. Not all TV's can bypass the scaler for 1:1 but most can. If using VGA it gets more complex as phase and tracking can mess up a 1:1 signal and create banding.

Its better to have less scaling operations.. And the PC will probably yield the better scaler for DVD / digital media sources.

These things dont make big differences, its very very small stuff (and becomes even less important on smaller screen) but when scaling up for projection or using HD sources its those little tweaks that give that amazing depth that good high def on a well tuned display can sometimes do.

[Florin]

Connecting over HDMI, but 1365x768 is quite difficult to setup using Powerstrip, it doesn't have a preset for it and I'm not sure if I need to change timings compared to 1366x768.

There actually was some kind of "Auto format" setting in the Menu, and I disabled it...

[LivinLOS]

The HDMI input may well be limited to 'consumer' device outputs like 720p / 1080i / 1080p etc and not be set up to bypass the scaler.. You will need to hunt the manual for supported resolutions etc. If it had a VGA or DVI input that might support more PC based inputs but you probably dont want to get into that.

[Florin]

Actually I'm using a DVI connector with HDMI adapter on the video card side...it is full HDMI 1.3 with audio support (audio input on the video card), but it supports any resolution I through at it, basically...and I also tried 720p, still no go.

[LivinLOS]

When you say no go.. I assume 720p connected and displayed the signal it just wasnt 1:1 pixel mapping and showed banding with the test image..

I actually meant at the display end.. If the TV is using the HDMI input HDMI is (in the TV world) thought of as a highdef TV input and less so as a PC based input, as such its likely that any resolutions presented to the HDMI input are then scaled to the screen. Its not uncommon for the HDMI input to not allow the exact panel resolution.

A good indicator (I just thought of) is also when running 1080 or 720 into the TV, do you have overscan ??

Also for video sourced stuff this is a very very minor issue.. I would just use 1080 or 720 and be happy with it.. I personally run a projector and a TV and only worry about 1:1 pixel mapping for the projection side.. The TV side isnt big enough to be able to see slight video differences. Even on the projection side with big screens (120 inch width I think thats about 144 diag ??) I struggle to tell if I am getting a better image with 1:1 pixel mapping and PC only scaling or oversampling (running at 1080p and letting the projector downscale) stuff like this si where it gets real anal and into double blinds and other stuff being needed like audio nutters.

[Florin]

Yes, 720p (and all other resolutions) display the banding effect...

In terms of overscan, it's basically like this: 1920x1080@24Hz - no overscan. 1920x1080@59/60Hz - overscan. So I keep it @ 24Hz.

And yeah, I'm honestly quite happy with running it at 1920x1080...now that you mentioned it, if I'm looking at text in things like program menus from very close up (i.e. 10 cm away), the lack of sharpness is noticeable...however, from an angle or from my normal viewing position (2.5ish meters away, straight on) it looks very crisp and readable, so I don't mind it at all.