How Can Smart People Be Superstitious?

[AmeriThai]

Social standards confirm a concept of shared reality.

If I shot your dog when you weren't home, your dog would still be dead and I would be guilty of a breaking a law I have never read. Time marches on and things come and go. The skytrain was real for me the same time it was for you even though I knew nothing about it. It adhered to all the same natural laws for everyone who rode on it. It is a real thing and it cannot be disproven.

Agreed. Social standards do confirm a concept of shared reality. But that's only in a general sense. It's the perception of details that can vary from person to person. And those details are all based on the individual and unique experiences of each person. People can agree to general realities such as social standards, but that doesn't change the small differences in details between individuals. If everyone and everything were exactly the same, there would be no differences or variation. But that ain't how it is. And that's why each person is unique from every other person. We share many things in common, but as individials we still possess uniqueness that no one else has ever had or ever will in the exact same way.

Your 'dead dog' example is part of a general reality, but has nothing to do with individual perceptions. If the dead dog shows that you broke the law (in my point of view) and that you were unaware of such a law, the general view is that the dog is dead. But you also show that perceptions vary because I knew the law and you didn't. Two different things.

I agree that time marches on and things do indeed come and go. But I'm stumped by what you're saying about the skytrain. You knew nothing about it BEFORE it existed, but yet it was real for you before it existed? That's kind of a contradiction. How could it be REAL for you if you didn't know anything about it and it didn't even yet exist?

Edited August 22, 2008 by AmeriThai

[canuckamuck]

Agreed. Social standards do confirm a concept of shared reality. But that's only in a general sense. It's the perception of details that can vary from person to person. And those details are all based on the individual and unique experiences of each person. People can agree to general realities such as social standards, but that doesn't change the small differences in details between individuals. If everyone and everything were exactly the same, there would be no differences or variation. But that ain't how it is. And that's why each person is unique from every other person. We share many things in common, but as individials we still possess uniqueness that no one else has ever had or ever will in the exact same way.

Your 'dead dog' example is part of a general reality, but has nothing to do with individual perceptions. If the dead dog shows that you broke the law (in my point of view) and that you were unaware of such a law, the general view is that the dog is dead. But you also show that perceptions vary because I knew the law and you didn't. Two different things.

I agree that time marches on and things do indeed come and go. But I'm stumped by what you're saying about the skytrain. You knew nothing about it BEFORE it existed, but yet it was real for you before it existed? That's kind of a contradiction. How could it be REAL for you if you didn't know anything about it and it didn't even yet exist?

My point is everything that exists is real and my perception of those things is not necessary. What if there was some genetic defect in your body that you were unaware of and then one day it simply killed you. You did not perceive it yet it was profoundly real. Everything that exists is part of reality, and I don't have a different reality than you, just a different understanding or interpretation of that reality.

Why don't you go ahead and prove that perception is the same as reality. I would find that interesting.

[AmeriThai]

Agreed. Social standards do confirm a concept of shared reality. But that's only in a general sense. It's the perception of details that can vary from person to person. And those details are all based on the individual and unique experiences of each person. People can agree to general realities such as social standards, but that doesn't change the small differences in details between individuals. If everyone and everything were exactly the same, there would be no differences or variation. But that ain't how it is. And that's why each person is unique from every other person. We share many things in common, but as individials we still possess uniqueness that no one else has ever had or ever will in the exact same way.

Your 'dead dog' example is part of a general reality, but has nothing to do with individual perceptions. If the dead dog shows that you broke the law (in my point of view) and that you were unaware of such a law, the general view is that the dog is dead. But you also show that perceptions vary because I knew the law and you didn't. Two different things.

I agree that time marches on and things do indeed come and go. But I'm stumped by what you're saying about the skytrain. You knew nothing about it BEFORE it existed, but yet it was real for you before it existed? That's kind of a contradiction. How could it be REAL for you if you didn't know anything about it and it didn't even yet exist?

My point is everything that exists is real and my perception of those things is not necessary. What if there was some genetic defect in your body that you were unaware of and then one day it simply killed you. You did not perceive it yet it was profoundly real. Everything that exists is part of reality, and I don't have a different reality than you, just a different understanding or interpretation of that reality.

Why don't you go ahead and prove that perception is the same as reality. I would find that interesting.

“My point is everything that exists is real and my perception of those things is not necessary.”

Can you give a single example which you have not needed perception to know that something in particular exists and is real?

“Why don't you go ahead and prove that perception is the same as reality.”

Why should I do that? How you came up with this notion is a mystery. It’s certainly nothing I said. They are different things. But there is a connection. You might want to reread the posts again.

“Everything that exists is part of reality, and I don't have a different reality than you, just a different understanding or interpretation of that reality.”

Well, you’re getting closer. You can’t understand or interpret something without first perceiving what it is you’re trying to understand or interpret. Realities can and do differ in certain details among different people because perceptions vary. That’s part of what makes each person unique. In major collective realities though I‘d agree there‘s little or no difference.

Why are there different languages, different religions, different customs? What I mean is why aren’t all people exactly the same?

Why do some people believe certain superstitions and others don’t? To some people it’s very real to them because that’s how they perceive it. I don’t share their view, but they’re certainly welcome to do so (as already stated) as long as it doesn’t interfere with or do any harm to my life or that of my family.

“What if there was some genetic defect in your body that you were unaware of and then one day it simply killed you. You did not perceive it yet it was profoundly real.”

That’s a very good point. However, I think you’re missing the main point that while things can and do happen all the time, perception and reality are still concepts that are formed in the mind. That doesn’t necessarily change, alter, or prevent things or events that exist or happen.

Using your example, if you had a terminal genetic defect and were unaware of it, or that it was going to kill you (before the fact), then it wouldn’t mean anything to you, regardless of fact that it later kills you. To whom would it be profoundly real?

On the other hand, if I see you dead (after the fact) that would become a reality to me because I’d still be very much alive to know that you’re most certainly dead. However, if I did NOT see you dead, read about it, or hear about it, I’d have no way of knowing, in which case it would have no meaning to me because I‘d be unaware of it. The brain has to take in information one way or another in order to perceive whether something is a reality or not. Otherwise, for all I’d know, you’re still alive and well. It’s really not that difficult to understand.

I think you might be confusing “reality” with “existence” or “actuality”. Reality tends to be more of a mental concept that can change and is a subject of much debate. Perception is a mental process that can involve the senses but is itself not a sensory thing like vision or touch. The senses can be fooled which is what skilled magicians and illusionists do. However, both perception and reality are much more complex than a simple explanation.

A couple of very basic things you can read for yourself about perception and reality. Beyond that, you’re on your own and will have to do your own homework. Hope that helps.

(You might want to read the part about “Perception and reality”)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

[gymshark]

I find superstition irrational.

[kedawi]

Having two relatively famous fortune tellers / Fung Shui masters in my close family, I can't say it works, but what's sure, it's profitable !!!

I can sit any member of thai-forum down in front of me who I,ve never met, and know nothing about, and tell them all about themselves, and be 100% accurate.

I can tell them the name of a past girlfriend, how much is in their wallet, predit any number they choose..etc... etc

I can make a pen move any direction from a distance- a person forget a number they,ve just seen( 80%), sometimes their own name.

bend spoons and forks. Make a ghost appear on someones mobile.

Touch someone and make them unable to move.

Or put an electric shock through them with my fingers to show spritual powers. I can cut myself and have it instantly heal.

Or have any number appear as blood mark on my arm- or ass if I choose.

I can make rain appear from the sky anytime. I can levitate off the ground. I can hold up an empty hand and rain down ashes ( something I,ve seen sai- baba do- we use the same method) to the ground

I,ll do it much better than any old fortune teller, fung-shui person.

Am I God?

When I was young I used this stuff to get dates. It helped...

Knowing all this can give one incredable powers-

I,ve gone to so called gifted people and listened to their crap and laughed inside. They often truly believe what they,re saying.

They ALL use a combination of mentalism, basic magic and hypnotic suggestion.And a few other tricks of the trade.

The so called fraud mystics, christains, et al, have discovered this. But they,ve also discovered the real secret- that most people make themselves willing lambs to all this crap-because they want hope.

Their lives are lacking.All this nonsense has nothing to do with any fakes,false power. They do not exist.

I can do this, so can you, study mentalism ( a branch of magic)

I love what Randi did- not one person has ever been able to earn the 1,000,000.

Because its all false- and it time to wake up, stop acting like sheep, and progress

I can tell a lot from onw posting.....and it's pretty accurate too!

[ourmaninbangers]

Having two relatively famous fortune tellers / Fung Shui masters in my close family, I can't say it works, but what's sure, it's profitable !!!

I can sit any member of thai-forum down in front of me who I,ve never met, and know nothing about, and tell them all about themselves, and be 100% accurate.

I can tell them the name of a past girlfriend, how much is in their wallet, predit any number they choose..etc... etc

I can make a pen move any direction from a distance- a person forget a number they,ve just seen( 80%), sometimes their own name.

bend spoons and forks. Make a ghost appear on someones mobile.

Touch someone and make them unable to move.

Or put an electric shock through them with my fingers to show spritual powers. I can cut myself and have it instantly heal.

Or have any number appear as blood mark on my arm- or ass if I choose.

I can make rain appear from the sky anytime. I can levitate off the ground. I can hold up an empty hand and rain down ashes ( something I,ve seen sai- baba do- we use the same method) to the ground

I,ll do it much better than any old fortune teller, fung-shui person.

Am I God?

When I was young I used this stuff to get dates. It helped...

Knowing all this can give one incredable powers-

I,ve gone to so called gifted people and listened to their crap and laughed inside. They often truly believe what they,re saying.

They ALL use a combination of mentalism, basic magic and hypnotic suggestion.And a few other tricks of the trade.

The so called fraud mystics, christains, et al, have discovered this. But they,ve also discovered the real secret- that most people make themselves willing lambs to all this crap-because they want hope.

Their lives are lacking.All this nonsense has nothing to do with any fakes,false power. They do not exist.

I can do this, so can you, study mentalism ( a branch of magic)

I love what Randi did- not one person has ever been able to earn the 1,000,000.

Because its all false- and it time to wake up, stop acting like sheep, and progress

Are you Tom Cruise ?

Because I've to tell you, honestly, scientology freaks me out!

no friend, wish i was, if I was I guess I would,nt of needed my ( not that good anyway) magic skills to get dates! I,am not proud of that- but, boy, did the magic brek the ice....

seriously, I hate scientology too, that really is pure junk-but all I told you about can be leant from any good magic /mentlaist teacher

in bangkok contact mr sombat [email protected]. mobile 0816187520

I can show you most

he,ll be able to teach you most of what I outlined above, but it will cost, and ( some)does take alot of

practice.

In nov I will bring Ray Thompson- the mind wizard to thailand. He can bend spoons better than uri gellar, and all that stuff.

His signature effect is to hypnotise someone and make then fall backwards- it has to be seen to be beleieved

and all this has ZERO to dom with any higher power, only a sincere desire to learn the art

best wishes

[ourmaninbangers]

Agreed. Social standards do confirm a concept of shared reality. But that's only in a general sense. It's the perception of details that can vary from person to person. And those details are all based on the individual and unique experiences of each person. People can agree to general realities such as social standards, but that doesn't change the small differences in details between individuals. If everyone and everything were exactly the same, there would be no differences or variation. But that ain't how it is. And that's why each person is unique from every other person. We share many things in common, but as individials we still possess uniqueness that no one else has ever had or ever will in the exact same way.

Your 'dead dog' example is part of a general reality, but has nothing to do with individual perceptions. If the dead dog shows that you broke the law (in my point of view) and that you were unaware of such a law, the general view is that the dog is dead. But you also show that perceptions vary because I knew the law and you didn't. Two different things.

I agree that time marches on and things do indeed come and go. But I'm stumped by what you're saying about the skytrain. You knew nothing about it BEFORE it existed, but yet it was real for you before it existed? That's kind of a contradiction. How could it be REAL for you if you didn't know anything about it and it didn't even yet exist?

My point is everything that exists is real and my perception of those things is not necessary. What if there was some genetic defect in your body that you were unaware of and then one day it simply killed you. You did not perceive it yet it was profoundly real. Everything that exists is part of reality, and I don't have a different reality than you, just a different understanding or interpretation of that reality.

Why don't you go ahead and prove that perception is the same as reality. I would find that interesting.

"My point is everything that exists is real and my perception of those things is not necessary."

Can you give a single example which you have not needed perception to know that something in particular exists and is real?

"Why don't you go ahead and prove that perception is the same as reality."

Why should I do that? How you came up with this notion is a mystery. It's certainly nothing I said. They are different things. But there is a connection. You might want to reread the posts again.

"Everything that exists is part of reality, and I don't have a different reality than you, just a different understanding or interpretation of that reality."

Well, you're getting closer. You can't understand or interpret something without first perceiving what it is you're trying to understand or interpret. Realities can and do differ in certain details among different people because perceptions vary. That's part of what makes each person unique. In major collective realities though I'd agree there's little or no difference.

Why are there different languages, different religions, different customs? What I mean is why aren't all people exactly the same?

Why do some people believe certain superstitions and others don't? To some people it's very real to them because that's how they perceive it. I don't share their view, but they're certainly welcome to do so (as already stated) as long as it doesn't interfere with or do any harm to my life or that of my family.

"What if there was some genetic defect in your body that you were unaware of and then one day it simply killed you. You did not perceive it yet it was profoundly real."

That's a very good point. However, I think you're missing the main point that while things can and do happen all the time, perception and reality are still concepts that are formed in the mind. That doesn't necessarily change, alter, or prevent things or events that exist or happen.

Using your example, if you had a terminal genetic defect and were unaware of it, or that it was going to kill you (before the fact), then it wouldn't mean anything to you, regardless of fact that it later kills you. To whom would it be profoundly real?

On the other hand, if I see you dead (after the fact) that would become a reality to me because I'd still be very much alive to know that you're most certainly dead. However, if I did NOT see you dead, read about it, or hear about it, I'd have no way of knowing, in which case it would have no meaning to me because I'd be unaware of it. The brain has to take in information one way or another in order to perceive whether something is a reality or not. Otherwise, for all I'd know, you're still alive and well. It's really not that difficult to understand.

I think you might be confusing "reality" with "existence" or "actuality". Reality tends to be more of a mental concept that can change and is a subject of much debate. Perception is a mental process that can involve the senses but is itself not a sensory thing like vision or touch. The senses can be fooled which is what skilled magicians and illusionists do. However, both perception and reality are much more complex than a simple explanation.

A couple of very basic things you can read for yourself about perception and reality. Beyond that, you're on your own and will have to do your own homework. Hope that helps.

(You might want to read the part about "Perception and reality")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

exellent links.. have you heard of steve pavlinas website- I find that to be any exellent source of info like this

is there aplace/person in thialand who teaches this kind of stuff?

[AmeriThai]

exellent links.. have you heard of steve pavlinas website- I find that to be any exellent source of info like this

is there aplace/person in thialand who teaches this kind of stuff?

No, I've never heard of the website or him. I did look it up and went straight to the ABOUT page. He describes himself as a motivational/inspirational/pep talk/feel good speaker. But I also noticed that he's married to a psychic medium. That's all very fine for some people, but it's not something that sways me. I just don't find it all that credible. To me, it seems to smack of the paranormal, which can include things like fortune telling, superstition, ghosts and UFOs.

Sorry, I have no idea who teaches motivational subjects in Thailand although there are monks who occasionally hold public lectures aimed at self-improvement. I'm also aware there are people in Thailand who privately teach fortune telling via the stars, cards, palmistry, etc., and I know they don't do it for free.

[ourmaninbangers]

exellent links.. have you heard of steve pavlinas website- I find that to be any exellent source of info like this

is there aplace/person in thialand who teaches this kind of stuff?

No, I've never heard of the website or him. I did look it up and went straight to the ABOUT page. He describes himself as a motivational/inspirational/pep talk/feel good speaker. But I also noticed that he's married to a psychic medium. That's all very fine for some people, but it's not something that sways me. I just don't find it all that credible. To me, it seems to smack of the paranormal, which can include things like fortune telling, superstition, ghosts and UFOs.

Sorry, I have no idea who teaches motivational subjects in Thailand although there are monks who occasionally hold public lectures aimed at self-improvement. I'm also aware there are people in Thailand who privately teach fortune telling via the stars, cards, palmistry, etc., and I know they don't do it for free.

you right, i did,nt notice that bit

but alot of what he says is good, don,t you think? all the other stuff, fortune telling, palm work,men dying on the cross- those things around the neck- all nonsense

check out the best one of all,, landoverbaptist

its great

bye

[seyenne]

I've got one funny story my girlfriends father told me.

A Guy was wearing this very big and heavy amulet that should always protect him from evil and bad luck.

He once jumped over a small stream, the amulet swung up and broke his nose..

I wonder what that guy might has thought, it probably was a faked one .. Must be.

[desertrat]

"How can any level headed people want to believe such crap? "

They are considered to have a neurological disorder.

For us "brights" wiki "Flying Spaghetti Monster"

Edited October 7, 2008 by desertrat

[ourmaninbangers]

Having two relatively famous fortune tellers / Fung Shui masters in my close family, I can't say it works, but what's sure, it's profitable !!!

I can sit any member of thai-forum down in front of me who I,ve never met, and know nothing about, and tell them all about themselves, and be 100% accurate.

I can tell them the name of a past girlfriend, how much is in their wallet, predit any number they choose..etc... etc

I can make a pen move any direction from a distance- a person forget a number they,ve just seen( 80%), sometimes their own name.

bend spoons and forks. Make a ghost appear on someones mobile.

Touch someone and make them unable to move.

Or put an electric shock through them with my fingers to show spritual powers. I can cut myself and have it instantly heal.

Or have any number appear as blood mark on my arm- or ass if I choose.

I can make rain appear from the sky anytime. I can levitate off the ground. I can hold up an empty hand and rain down ashes ( something I,ve seen sai- baba do- we use the same method) to the ground

I,ll do it much better than any old fortune teller, fung-shui person.

Am I God?

When I was young I used this stuff to get dates. It helped...

Knowing all this can give one incredable powers-

I,ve gone to so called gifted people and listened to their crap and laughed inside. They often truly believe what they,re saying.

They ALL use a combination of mentalism, basic magic and hypnotic suggestion.And a few other tricks of the trade.

The so called fraud mystics, christains, et al, have discovered this. But they,ve also discovered the real secret- that most people make themselves willing lambs to all this crap-because they want hope.

Their lives are lacking.All this nonsense has nothing to do with any fakes,false power. They do not exist.

I can do this, so can you, study mentalism ( a branch of magic)

I love what Randi did- not one person has ever been able to earn the 1,000,000.

Because its all false- and it time to wake up, stop acting like sheep, and progress

I can tell a lot from onw posting.....and it's pretty accurate too!

sorri not sure what you mean- what is onw?-

in nov my magic/mentlaism teacher will be coming to thailand to hold seminar- check him out ,his name is 'Ray Thompson' aka the mind wizard

he can do much more than most so called " gifted' people only he will not to claim that its divine power- I think all that is total BS-christains believe in a talking snakes- i rest my case! He is great and super nice person. Unlike me who likes to psss people off! ( only the sheep)

you very welcome to attend him demonstate some of the tricks used by people such as si baba,uri gellar and many others other to fool the sheep into beleieving theres more than what their dull lives are giving them, the essense of why religion succeeds.It appeals to those who have so little going on.

please come gratis for you

ciao

[lifeisrandom]

I've got one funny story my girlfriends father told me.

A Guy was wearing this very big and heavy amulet that should always protect him from evil and bad luck.

He once jumped over a small stream, the amulet swung up and broke his nose..

I wonder what that guy might has thought, it probably was a faked one .. Must be.

amulets dont work for farang, only Thai.

that is my understanding atleast.

anyone here familiar with ghosts who can clarify ?

[whatsoever]

I am with you on organized religion...it is all just a story.

About the funniest argument that I have heard is, "Well, if there is not Heaven after our life here, then what is the use of us being here?" <deleted>?

My response is "We are born, we live, we die, we are worm food".

Ok most rational humans would agree that organized religion is a farce mostly adopted by the weak and feeble minded sheeple. However, the big question still remains. Who or what created our reality?

Edited October 18, 2008 by whatsoever

[lazygourmet]

I am with you on organized religion...it is all just a story.

About the funniest argument that I have heard is, "Well, if there is not Heaven after our life here, then what is the use of us being here?" <deleted>?

My response is "We are born, we live, we die, we are worm food".

Ok most rational humans would agree that organized religion is a farce mostly adopted by the weak and feeble minded sheeple. However, the big question still reamins. Who or what created our reality?

Wanna make money?!?... Make a new religion

[meadish_sweetball]

It's all part of the game. Just because you partake in the traditions doesn't mean you have all of your eggs in that one basket. Thaksin has a fortune teller, but it doesn't mean that he just went home after having his fortune told and hoped that someone would build up a telecoms empire for him. The Halliburton folks who go to church every Sunday probably didn't just "pray to God" that one day there would be a war (or two) where they could provide a good amount of the support services and that "God" would grant them a bunch of contracts.

This is unlike the general populace, who often do bet the farm on religion and superstition. If you buy lottery tickets or sit around complaining about the government (both examples of waiting around for "external" forces... not unlike karma, luck, or God... to affect your life), guess which group you're a member of.

i am not sure if you are saying its just for show or not, but i do believe that these people believe in it. if only a little, its still strange. i guess old habits are hard to kick

Whether consciously and/or subconsciouly, IMO those whose are on the upper end of the socio-economic spectrum "know" that karma, luck, or God doesn't dictate where the chips fall. "I believe in God, but I know that if I don't keep in close contact with my fellow Bonesmen, that God won't grant us this contract." "I believe my fortune teller, but I know that if I don't secure this gov't concession with a lot of white envelopes, that I'll never be a billionaire."

Those who both "believe" in these 'external' concepts on all levels of thought IMO make up the majority of the people on the planet (and at the same time most of the middle and lower ends of the socio-economic spectrum).

I thik "smart" people publically engage in these superstiton related activites to reinforce the idea in the minnd of "dumb" people. It takes their eye off the ball. If you didn't get found innocent it's just your bad luck and not your criminal behavior. If you get a big govt. contract it's because you deserve it from your karma and merit making and not because you greased a hundred palms. It's something they can share with the common people.

I think smart, successful people who engage in religion do it for many reasons, for example some of the following:

- Appearing pious and spiritual, gaining respect and 'face' from people of the same faith.

- To focus their thoughts and willpower in order to reach their goals. One can laugh at the faith element if one so wishes, but I have seen enough demonstrations of how strong a drive faith can be. It's not necessarily all just about mumbo jumbo, even if you don't believe in the supernatural you should be able to find enough examples of how belief in the supernatural is a strongly compelling force, and many rituals are designed to respond to deeply universal human needs that can make you feel stronger and more confident as a person.

- For harmony. To engage in religious acts is to carry on tradition, and tradition is a strong bonding force within groups of people (ethnic groups, families, even nations).

- To feel better about themselves. Providing balance (filling up the positive side of the karma account, asking forgiveness for sins etc.)

[Mattchu9999]

It's refreshing to see so many people here aren't afraid enough of reality as to require the pacifier of religion.

Belief in religion requires faith which is the destroyer of reason.

One cannot use reason to prove the existence of god.

There is an incorrect assumption that faith is a power in and of itself. No, it is praying which is nothing more than concentrated positive thought that has been PROVEN by physics to have an effect on objects such as water crystals changing shape in tests of concentrated positive thinking. Faith is still nothing more than a merry go round of human emotion, and serves no purpose other that to pacify the faithful from using reason to contemplate their particular situation in life...which has no purpose.

[Kerryd]

Back in ancient (very ancient) times, our hairy ancestors, holed up in their trees and caves, saw and experienced things they couldn't understand.

Thunder and Lightning. Hail Storms. Volcanoes, earthquakes, tidal waves (tsunamis), eclipses of the moon and sun. They had no way of knowing that these were simply the products of nature. They had no way to know that these events happened (or were seen) around the world by different peoples. The world for these ancients was the distance they could walk in a day or two.

Eventually, these natural events were attributed to supernatural beings. Different peoples created different sets of supernatural beings that were responsible for these events. Some of the smarter members of these peoples realized that if they could convince their fellows that they could communicate (and even control) these supernatural beings, they themselves could gain power otherwise unavailable to them.

Thus were born the shamen, clerics, witch doctors, priests, etc. They used "superstitious" methods to supplicate, control or communicate with these supernatural beings. This happened at various stages around the world, amongst peoples that had NO communication with any other peoples.

As various groups of similar peoples (tribes) started to band together, superstitious practices merged, evolved and became standardized (to an extent). Thus Religion came into being. As different groups merged, conquered (or were conquered) by others, various systems of belief (Religion) expanded or disappeared.

In some cases, the dominant belief system found it easier to assimilate some practices and events into their own system, rather than try to eliminate the old system entirely.

In the Histories of Herodotus (Greek historian that lived over 2,500 years ago), he noted that most of the Greek gods seemed to have evolved from far older, Egyptian gods. (Just as the Roman gods appear to have evolved from the Greek gods).

Most of these systems developed a "Heaven or hel_l" type of religion that promised rewards for their faithful, and pain/damnation for everyone else. This not only helped to ensure the leaders of those systems maintained power, but prevented their followers from swaying or defecting to a competing system. Even Scientology uses a similar belief system (obey us, give us money and we will help rid you of the evil Thetans that control you. Don't and you will are doomed to be controlled by those Thetans and be miserable, and then our armies of lawyers will sue you into the poor house).

As with mankind itself, some Religions have themselves evolved in order to maintain their control of flocks. Much of this evolution has been the direct result of scientific discoveries, and of having a better educated populace. (How many Christians would still believe the church if it still taught that the world was flat, the Earth was the center of the universe, and that the sun and other planets revolved around the earth ?).

Other religions prefer to keep their worshippers ignorant and uneducated in all but the very basics, in order to maintain control of them. One group, not too long ago, told their citizens that an earthquake that killed (5,000 ?) citizens and flattened cities, was punishment from their God for their being "too Western" in their thoughts and actions.

Every so often a new system of belief springs up. Some are considered cults, some disappear as fast as they rise, others take hold and grow. This has been going on since the beginning as well and continues now.

And what does it all boil down to ?

Power.

The ability to control people and make them do what you want. That's what it has all been about since the first clerics/shamen/priests sprung up thousands and thousands of years ago. Religion was a way to gain power in times when it normally went to strongest/most powerful member(s) of the group, those that could take it and keep it using force.

Using Religion, people could (in many cases) wield a power greater than the fiercest warriors, the mightiest kings, the most powerful emperors. This is evident today in some places. In other places people realized that Religion was hampering their progress, and thus came about the separation of Church and State in (most) of those places.

It is interesting (and possibly the subject of a different discussion) to see the difference between the groups that have separated Church and State, and those that haven't.

It was once said that there are no Atheists in the Foxholes. This came about from desperate people clinging to anything that might possibly spare their lives. Those same people would have cast chicken bones, consulted fortune tellers, turned in a circle 3 times and spit on their left shoe if they thought that might spare their lives as well.

Superstition remains with us in these times as people still hold hope that something, anything might improve their lives. Just as people buy lottery tickets (or gamble) in the hopes that they will hit it big. Some do win. Luck of the draw ? Superstitious belief ? Prayers to (insert favourite deity here) ?

It wasn't that long ago (in the overall history of the world) that people thought making offerings to various supernatural beings would bring favour upon them. In fact, this still goes on. Where before people would offer food and drink, or sacrifice animals, now they give money. Even in Buddhism people make offerings in order to increase their "merit" (in the hopes of eventually attaining enlightenment, if not in this life then maybe in the next.)

People cling to these beliefs/superstitions/religions in part because they are desperate to believe that there is more to life than their current, mortal existence. Everyone (almost) wants to live forever, and where better than in a "Heavenly Paradise" ? Many people believe in these systems because they have been indoctrinated in them since they were born.

If you could take a new generation of people and raise them to believe that space aliens put them on earth, and if they had faith, followed certain rituals, etc, etc, they would one day be re-united with that alien race, most of those people would go to their graves believing that, and nothing anyone else said would convince them differently. They would raise their children in the same belief, and despite the fact that none of them would ever see an alien, they would believe it to be true because that is how they were raised.

(If an Alien Race is ever discovered, or discovers us, you can pretty much guarantee that new superstitions will spring up. A sprig of parsley between your toes will prevent an Alien Anal Probe. Pinching your child's nose and slapping the sole of their right foot 3 times will prevent them from being kidnapped by Aliens. And so on.)

It's too bad there isn't a mainstream system that believes in the earth, instead of "supernatural" beings. We are born on it, live on it and die on it. It feeds us, clothes us, shelters us, rewards us and yes, punishes us, at times for no reason. Yet too many people treat it like something objectionable you find on the sole of your shoe/sandal.

We have just started to explore the boundaries beyond our planet, and it likely be centuries before we find anything comparable to what we have now.

Will the earth survive our existence that long ? (And will we still be superstitious then ? I've got my fingers crossed !)

[Geroc]

so i hear thaskin is burying a lucky flower or something under the manchester city field to make his team lucky, and i remember him and other prominant Thai officials consulting fortune tellers and i have met many many intelligent Thai people who still believe in this type of stuff. it causes a problem for me because only morons believe in this stuff. now my GF says "This condo is not good because its infront of a temple and thats bad luck."...Great, babe.

The wide world is supertition !

A god for christians, another for muslims, another one for buddhists, and so many other ones. It has been a sufficient reason for killing other people all along the siecles, and still now.

So why not accept that a flower, the location of a house or any other object can give luck or curse ? At least, it's not dangerous !

Is true what we want to considere at well, isn't it ?

[bkkjames]

Back in ancient (very ancient) times, our hairy ancestors, holed up in their trees and caves, saw and experienced things they couldn't understand.

Thunder and Lightning. Hail Storms. Volcanoes, earthquakes, tidal waves (tsunamis), eclipses of the moon and sun. They had no way of knowing that these were simply the products of nature. They had no way to know that these events happened (or were seen) around the world by different peoples. The world for these ancients was the distance they could walk in a day or two.

Eventually, these natural events were attributed to supernatural beings. Different peoples created different sets of supernatural beings that were responsible for these events. Some of the smarter members of these peoples realized that if they could convince their fellows that they could communicate (and even control) these supernatural beings, they themselves could gain power otherwise unavailable to them.

Thus were born the shamen, clerics, witch doctors, priests, etc. They used "superstitious" methods to supplicate, control or communicate with these supernatural beings. This happened at various stages around the world, amongst peoples that had NO communication with any other peoples.

As various groups of similar peoples (tribes) started to band together, superstitious practices merged, evolved and became standardized (to an extent). Thus Religion came into being. As different groups merged, conquered (or were conquered) by others, various systems of belief (Religion) expanded or disappeared.

In some cases, the dominant belief system found it easier to assimilate some practices and events into their own system, rather than try to eliminate the old system entirely.

In the Histories of Herodotus (Greek historian that lived over 2,500 years ago), he noted that most of the Greek gods seemed to have evolved from far older, Egyptian gods. (Just as the Roman gods appear to have evolved from the Greek gods).

Most of these systems developed a "Heaven or hel_l" type of religion that promised rewards for their faithful, and pain/damnation for everyone else. This not only helped to ensure the leaders of those systems maintained power, but prevented their followers from swaying or defecting to a competing system. Even Scientology uses a similar belief system (obey us, give us money and we will help rid you of the evil Thetans that control you. Don't and you will are doomed to be controlled by those Thetans and be miserable, and then our armies of lawyers will sue you into the poor house).

As with mankind itself, some Religions have themselves evolved in order to maintain their control of flocks. Much of this evolution has been the direct result of scientific discoveries, and of having a better educated populace. (How many Christians would still believe the church if it still taught that the world was flat, the Earth was the center of the universe, and that the sun and other planets revolved around the earth ?).

Other religions prefer to keep their worshippers ignorant and uneducated in all but the very basics, in order to maintain control of them. One group, not too long ago, told their citizens that an earthquake that killed (5,000 ?) citizens and flattened cities, was punishment from their God for their being "too Western" in their thoughts and actions.

Every so often a new system of belief springs up. Some are considered cults, some disappear as fast as they rise, others take hold and grow. This has been going on since the beginning as well and continues now.

And what does it all boil down to ?

Power.

The ability to control people and make them do what you want. That's what it has all been about since the first clerics/shamen/priests sprung up thousands and thousands of years ago. Religion was a way to gain power in times when it normally went to strongest/most powerful member(s) of the group, those that could take it and keep it using force.

Using Religion, people could (in many cases) wield a power greater than the fiercest warriors, the mightiest kings, the most powerful emperors. This is evident today in some places. In other places people realized that Religion was hampering their progress, and thus came about the separation of Church and State in (most) of those places.

It is interesting (and possibly the subject of a different discussion) to see the difference between the groups that have separated Church and State, and those that haven't.

It was once said that there are no Atheists in the Foxholes. This came about from desperate people clinging to anything that might possibly spare their lives. Those same people would have cast chicken bones, consulted fortune tellers, turned in a circle 3 times and spit on their left shoe if they thought that might spare their lives as well.

Superstition remains with us in these times as people still hold hope that something, anything might improve their lives. Just as people buy lottery tickets (or gamble) in the hopes that they will hit it big. Some do win. Luck of the draw ? Superstitious belief ? Prayers to (insert favourite deity here) ?

It wasn't that long ago (in the overall history of the world) that people thought making offerings to various supernatural beings would bring favour upon them. In fact, this still goes on. Where before people would offer food and drink, or sacrifice animals, now they give money. Even in Buddhism people make offerings in order to increase their "merit" (in the hopes of eventually attaining enlightenment, if not in this life then maybe in the next.)

People cling to these beliefs/superstitions/religions in part because they are desperate to believe that there is more to life than their current, mortal existence. Everyone (almost) wants to live forever, and where better than in a "Heavenly Paradise" ? Many people believe in these systems because they have been indoctrinated in them since they were born.

If you could take a new generation of people and raise them to believe that space aliens put them on earth, and if they had faith, followed certain rituals, etc, etc, they would one day be re-united with that alien race, most of those people would go to their graves believing that, and nothing anyone else said would convince them differently. They would raise their children in the same belief, and despite the fact that none of them would ever see an alien, they would believe it to be true because that is how they were raised.

(If an Alien Race is ever discovered, or discovers us, you can pretty much guarantee that new superstitions will spring up. A sprig of parsley between your toes will prevent an Alien Anal Probe. Pinching your child's nose and slapping the sole of their right foot 3 times will prevent them from being kidnapped by Aliens. And so on.)

It's too bad there isn't a mainstream system that believes in the earth, instead of "supernatural" beings. We are born on it, live on it and die on it. It feeds us, clothes us, shelters us, rewards us and yes, punishes us, at times for no reason. Yet too many people treat it like something objectionable you find on the sole of your shoe/sandal.

We have just started to explore the boundaries beyond our planet, and it likely be centuries before we find anything comparable to what we have now.

Will the earth survive our existence that long ? (And will we still be superstitious then ? I've got my fingers crossed !)

Kerry...do you have bullet points for the above mate? (fingers crossed) I can't read all that.

[Gravelrash]

Religion just shows that a good sales pitch works if you push the right buttons. There again trying to un-convert the converted is probably no better than their proselytizing. On that Zeitgeist movie (google it for something to think about) there is a great line roughly saying that: god created us, then sent down his 10 laws, then anyone breaking those laws he made rot in hel_l in unending agony for eternity....BUT he loves you.

The wealthy Thais think that if they spend some money at the Wat on a new wall (less than they do on their mia noy) then they have bought a stairway to heaven. I believe a son in the priesthood bestows a simlar reward for the parents.

The only one that I see has anything to offer is Buddhism albeit in it's original form a vehicle for sell enlightenment. That was of course perverted with the temples and usual grabs for cash.

[AmeriThai]

No, it is praying which is nothing more than concentrated positive thought that has been PROVEN by physics to have an effect on objects such as water crystals changing shape in tests of concentrated positive thinking.

Water crystals? Are you talking about ice?

[bkkjames]

No, it is praying which is nothing more than concentrated positive thought that has been PROVEN by physics to have an effect on objects such as water crystals changing shape in tests of concentrated positive thinking.

Water crystals? Are you talking about ice?

Where is David Blane when we need him to sort this all out.

[Mr Jones]

It is my GOD given right to be an Atheist.

I told a Priest this once and it went right over his head.

[Ta22]

This is such a complex question that i think trying to example it in a more complex way it would confuse even the smart one ,

so i will try my best to explain it in a less complex but still twisting way .

--

smart people usually come up with silly excuse cos there are lazy to explain . and the don't care if it right or wrong people take it as real and then speard the message along.

--

there is alot of thing we cannot explain at the moment . but as our knowledge grow thing look more simple from a very complex point of view .

is a matter of how well you understand thing . alot choose to have the simple answer or a overall standard for event that happen around us .

-----

in the past if someone die in the middle of the market without reason . he may be jinxed or cursed by the devil or kill by god what ever you like to put it ..

WHAT IF . imagine 500 years ago . some guy come up and say . NO NO , he die cos he got an heart attack . or a storke which cos him to form from his mouth .. chances that guy would be taken to the local town house or church and burn alive .

cos the doctrine at the age would not allow such excuse to stand up .

-----

luck . when we choose to take risk . Uncaculated , we offen like to depend on what we call Luck . - but the simple fact that when a person is down on luck . is also an excuse to tell him to stop . but blinded by greed alot that should had stopped come up with more excuse for one self to go on ..

study had shown that human is addicted to the thrill of putting ones life at risk -

and the closest thing to not dying is to risk one living hood .

------------

location myth ..

some say is bad to live ear this and that . is not totally rubbish .

look at the health effect . if it a chinese temple . you would have poor air . as alot of smoke from the temple .

if it a thai temple. chances is by 4-5 am you be woke up by the charting .

it all depend on who , where , what you prefer is good living .

, the same dose of drug might help or kill different person .

-----------

If i were you . the smartest way to do is respect and listen . cos a smart person is able to handle relationship well.

and in my view the smarter a person the less he get angry . cos such person would be more understanding and see thing wider ..

----------

take taoist for example , when you look at Superstitious you got to understand it from the time and ages people living in and started it . and why people follow. alot of blieve had not change over time . and some Superstitious stay till now .

Taoist priest burn Yellow paper tailman written with red ink . for people seeking to cure their illness. some 700-1000 years ago . common problem with people would be food related problem due to poor drinking water , and food is not alway fresh due to long disatnce you need to travel , and also alot of illness is pain related .

Reason.. the taoist priest will ask the people to burn the yellow paper tailman and drink it with tea .

after paper is Burn it become carbon .. ( today when we have a stomach upset we take carbon pill )

and the red ink usually ( zhu sa ) had some merurcy on it .. and that help cure pain . even when is on a very bad dose .

chance is the person die you can alway blame it on the devil ..

--------------

everyone have their own Superstitious

if you narrow down .all of this . the smartest way to deal with Superstitious is tr to understand why people believe in such Superstitious in the first place . my wife had alot of Superstitious also and is fun..

---------------

Superstitious build respect , i got the habbit of using my leg to kick my bad aside . but my wife instead that is bad luck .

i try to think about it . and say thereis no bad luck to kicking a bad .

is just my excuse for being lazy to handle it the right way and taking the bag and put it on a table .

- her view which is guarded by her believe that is bad luck. will alway see her bad nicely place on a table or some where not on the floor .

- slowly i understand that alot of small thing we do can show if we respect people around us . respect is not just for people . and sad to say alot of people show respect to others for the sake of showing respect . and lack the heart to do so .

by having some Superstitious that keep peopl ein order at time .

--------------

Superstitious is really God sale man .

same go for the devil and all excuse for all thing you can't explain . is just a general words used by man but little do people give it a serious look as to why .

-----------

here is my Superstitious for you .

if you read this message twice , you will have a better day tomorrow

whahahhahahahhahahha

[dominique355]

This has tremendous evolutionary advantages. If you fear a tiger is behind you when the wind rustles a hedge, then even if you are wrong 500 times in a row, you still will survive while the sceptic human who does not check the rustling grass gets eaten on the 500 th occasion.

Unfortunately, the pinnacle of this line of thinking evolution-wise is mere survival. When applied towards increasing the quality of food/shelter/clothing/medicine, there is virtually no evolutionary advantage.

... but it brings an evolutionary advantage to the fortune teller. They make tons of cash here in Thailand.

[Geekfreaklover]

Thai's embraced the idea of Gautama Buddha brought to them by the Indians. These ideas and thoughts were sprinkled with a liberal dose of pre-existing Animist spirits, hindu gods and Brahim religions.

It is a fusion of at least four religions and it makes for an interesting type of thinking.

The Buddha never believed in supersition.

[AmeriThai]

No, it is praying which is nothing more than concentrated positive thought that has been PROVEN by physics to have an effect on objects such as water crystals changing shape in tests of concentrated positive thinking.

Water crystals? Are you talking about ice?

Where is David Blane when we need him to sort this all out.

He might be encased in another block of water crystals.

In Thailand, I only need to use concentrated positive thinking for a few seconds to witness the proof of the amazing process of physics. Not only do the water crystals begin to change shape from solid to liquid after a period of time, but the glass or container will also form beads of water on the outside.

[tartempion]

Humans are an extremely primitive species.Essentially we are just a bunch of warring tribes whose premise for mayhem and destruction is our primitive, baseless belief systems(religion). I'm sure there are more advanced lifeforms in the universe who laugh at our cerebral inadequacies.

Humans are the cancer of the planet (universe)

Who else will manage to destroy the tree he lives on/off in less than 10k years?

[bonobo]

Humans are an extremely primitive species.Essentially we are just a bunch of warring tribes whose premise for mayhem and destruction is our primitive, baseless belief systems(religion). I'm sure there are more advanced lifeforms in the universe who laugh at our cerebral inadequacies.

Humans are the cancer of the planet (universe)

Who else will manage to destroy the tree he lives on/off in less than 10k years?

Well, there are elephants, goats, and many other species which can ruin their local environment and have to move on to find greener pastures.

Not sure what that has to do with superstition, though.