Lack Of Teaching Materials And Teachers Are Main Problems

[thaigene2]

Seems to me that the Chinese elite (and the military elite) send their children to private school away from Thailand if possible, and if they spend too much money on educating the non-chinese, where will they get their endless supply of maids, taxi drivers, gardeners and other cheap labour from?? Too much education could be a dangerous thing and upset the status quo. The last thing we want is the underclasses demanding thier equal share of prosperity. For example, if the farmers learn to do multiplication sums, they will demand fair prices for their rice etc. Oh no no no no no.....

So it's the responsibility of Thai Chinese parents to educate other people's children?

Good Heng, you just gave one of the reasons why the Thai education looks like it does But don't worry, you don't need to care about your fellow country men, better stay 3rd world. After all, you already have your US education, and we do not want to loose that advantage over the masses, do we

There you go, baanthale, as usual you're turning a blind eye to reality.

So what "advantage" did the first and subsequent generations of relatively *uneducated* Thai-Chinese have (you, know, the ones who managed to gain control of the entire economy from the ground up)? Even if all of the relatively few Thai Chinese (my guess would be no greater than 15,000-20,000 per year) who do send their children abroad to further their education stopped doing so, do you think the playing field that the *uneducated* Thai Chinese already own would somehow become more "equal?"

Who's turning a blind eye to reality?? Just exit you castle, and you will see reality outside. I do not begrudge Thai people to get an education abroad, but I would also like to see the big masses in Thailan having a chance to get a decent education. I understand that everyone can not have exactly the same standard in the world, I also know that it could be alot better for most in Thailand with a little effort. As I said before, in the end it's all about how you want your country developed

Not only am I in the castle and have a nice view of the big picture, my work often involves working side by side (and hand to mouth) with the grunts of society and I see first hand more than a few personal habits (none that are taught in any meaningful way in school by the way.... to the point that I'd call it culture/tradition) that generation upon generation that keep people down. Plenty of exceptions as well of course. There's the occasional Chinaman that makes it to the NBA as well, it doesn't mean that 'education' OR a 'conspiracy among African Americans' is to blame for the lack of them up until this point. People are, for better or worse, inherently different.

Heng - I've seen where others have complimented you on your charity work (is it orphanage?) - but to use the words 'grunts of society' (unless you are quoting someone above that I didn't see), saddens me to be honest. Why are they 'grunts'? Who exactly is "inherintly different"? Are the orphans grunts?

[Heng]

Seems to me that the Chinese elite (and the military elite) send their children to private school away from Thailand if possible, and if they spend too much money on educating the non-chinese, where will they get their endless supply of maids, taxi drivers, gardeners and other cheap labour from?? Too much education could be a dangerous thing and upset the status quo. The last thing we want is the underclasses demanding thier equal share of prosperity. For example, if the farmers learn to do multiplication sums, they will demand fair prices for their rice etc. Oh no no no no no.....

So it's the responsibility of Thai Chinese parents to educate other people's children?

Good Heng, you just gave one of the reasons why the Thai education looks like it does But don't worry, you don't need to care about your fellow country men, better stay 3rd world. After all, you already have your US education, and we do not want to loose that advantage over the masses, do we

There you go, baanthale, as usual you're turning a blind eye to reality.

So what "advantage" did the first and subsequent generations of relatively *uneducated* Thai-Chinese have (you, know, the ones who managed to gain control of the entire economy from the ground up)? Even if all of the relatively few Thai Chinese (my guess would be no greater than 15,000-20,000 per year) who do send their children abroad to further their education stopped doing so, do you think the playing field that the *uneducated* Thai Chinese already own would somehow become more "equal?"

Who's turning a blind eye to reality?? Just exit you castle, and you will see reality outside. I do not begrudge Thai people to get an education abroad, but I would also like to see the big masses in Thailan having a chance to get a decent education. I understand that everyone can not have exactly the same standard in the world, I also know that it could be alot better for most in Thailand with a little effort. As I said before, in the end it's all about how you want your country developed

Not only am I in the castle and have a nice view of the big picture, my work often involves working side by side (and hand to mouth) with the grunts of society and I see first hand more than a few personal habits (none that are taught in any meaningful way in school by the way.... to the point that I'd call it culture/tradition) that generation upon generation that keep people down. Plenty of exceptions as well of course. There's the occasional Chinaman that makes it to the NBA as well, it doesn't mean that 'education' OR a 'conspiracy among African Americans' is to blame for the lack of them up until this point. People are, for better or worse, inherently different.

Heng - I've seen where others have complimented you on your charity work (is it orphanage?) - but to use the words 'grunts of society' (unless you are quoting someone above that I didn't see), saddens me to be honest. Why are they 'grunts'? Who exactly is "inherintly different"? Are the orphans grunts?

'Grunt' as in those who do the hardest work, ala the popular media reference to foot soldiers. Non-condescending. When I'm trying to be condescending, it's a lot more obvious.

[Kilgore Trout]

Seriously, why does any alien in Thailand genuinly care about the Thai education system? What is it to you? What's really in it for you? Haven't you got better things to do with your time than to ponder the education system here? If your an alien teacher in the system, I think as long as your little lot is OK why do you bother with the rest? After all, for an alien teaching here, is it not just a means to an end, ie; the money, in order you live the life style that you chose.

Ha, that is pathetic. I'll tell you what's more pathetic is some idiot reading the thread and writing (above post)!

[dkstoney]

Today at school is Science Day and it lasts all weekend. It's mostly little food and jewelry stalls. Yesterday, three classes were canceled because the students had to decorate classroom bulletin boards and the halls. Another time it was to practice for a Crossword competition, another time it was to have a morals seminar, another time it was,...On top of all the holidays there are many days when classes are canceled for whatever reasons.

Just speaking for the English-teaching side of things, I do think that it would behoove the MOE to develop a nationwide curriculum that is ready to teach out of the box instead of relying on a lot of new foreign teachers to "just make something up." It's not the case 100%, I know, but most schools don't really have a set plan of study. Many times it's not divulged to the foreign teacher if they do have one.

I also think that an audio program (such as Pimsleur) with a Thai-speaking narrator to study conversation, expressions, and phrases would be of great benefit to students rather than solely working from books typically designed for ESL learners residing in English-speaking countries. There are enough VCD/DVD players, computers, mp3 devices, and even cellphones in the homes of Thailand to make the distribution of this medium feasible and relatively easy.

[Thai at Heart]

Lack of teaching materials and teachers are main problems : Poll

BANGKOK: -- A Suan Dusit survey has pinpointed major problems in the country's educational system, including inadequate teaching materials, a shortage of teachers, an inefficient curriculum and students' failure to focus on their studies.

The information was gathered from 1,257 respondents, many of them students or teachers.

Suan Dusit Rajabhat University deputy rector Sukhum Chaloeisap plans to present the survey findings to a Senate subcommittee on basic education today. He is an advisor the subcommittee.

"We have conducted the survey to identify which problems should be tackled first," Sukhum said Wednesday.

He disclosed that the subcommittee recently discussed educational problems but could not conclude which ones were most urgent.

The survey thus asked respondents not just about education problems they had witnessed but also about the solutions they wanted to see implemented first.

On the solutions, 26.82 per cent mentioned curriculum improvement while 23.46 per cent recommended a studentcentred approach.

Other respondents called for adequate teaching materials, family efforts to instil a love of reading in children, and inclusion of ethical lessons.

Sukhum said the Senate subcommittee would inform the relevant authorities of the survey findings.

"We will then follow up on how they implement the solutions," he added. "We will also update the public on the progress."

-- The Nation 2008-08-13

They fail to believe that a young curious square mind should be nurtured as opposed to being squezzed into a regulation round hole.

[seri thai]

Socrates himself is particularly missed-A lovely little thinker

(but a bugger when he's pissed)

[NanaFoods]

So it's the responsibility of Thai Chinese parents to educate other people's children?

aren't they the ones holding the positions in government responsible for the policies?

Government as parent? What are the children's REAL parents doing?

Doesn't fortune/God/karma help those that help themselves?

I would agree that parenting in Thailand is abysmal - at least in the rural areas.

From what I've observed, they have no concept of discipline, hence the difficulty in getting Thai kids to pay attention in class... if they can even forgo the mall and come to class. I see parents employ the same discipline technique with their kids as they do their dogs -- absolutely none.

But that's part of the problem... an important part, indeed, but only part.

The educational system, from what I understand from my wife (who has a "bachelor's degree"), simply doesn't challenge students to think outside the box or how to research and solve problems that they haven't been spoon-fed the answer to. My wife, bless her heart, has a degree in Statistics from a "Top 5" university in Thailand, yet still requires a calculator to subtract from 100.

I told her about my undergrad requirements for individual research, analysis, and reporting. And how even sometimes had to choose my own subject/topic (whoa now)!!! She told me she was never challenged like that -- Pick my own topic?? Research? All on my own? wha-wha-whaaat?

[Johpa]

So what "advantage" did the first and subsequent generations of relatively *uneducated* Thai-Chinese have (you, know, the ones who managed to gain control of the entire economy from the ground up)?

The primary advantage that even the poorest Chinese immigrants had over the indigenous Tai folks is that they hailed from a society that had long been monetized. Even 'uneducated' Chinese migrants understood concepts like money, loans, and interest. Thailand monetized its society rather late in the game moving away from trading, corvee labor, and outright slavery, a most common social condition until later in the 19th century. The ruling high sakdina elite found it convenient to keep the indigenous people poor and ignorant and bring in outsiders to interact with the newly emerging monetized economy that was now interacting with the outside world. Specifically, the various courts and palaces intentionally hired immigrant Chinese to become the 'tax farmers', the people who would collect the modern taxes that no longer were to be paid in labor. This is similar to how the European states and principalities once brought in a Jewish minority to run their commercial affairs, but they would then expel those same people at a later date. The savviest of the Chinese in Thailand quickly dominated the financial markets and closed the financial markets off to all but fellow Sino-Thais as well as their old partners and enablers, the old ruling high sakdina families, and later also the handful of Thais who climbed, really fought, their way to the top of the military and police ladders as those two institutions tended to be reserved for ethnic Thais. When I first lived in Thailand nearly 30 years ago, an ethnic Tai had no chance of obtaining credit from a bank, heck, they could not even get a job as a teller at a bank. I have been told that things have improved over the past decade.

Today Thailand is no different than many countries, including the US, where the ruling elite prefers to keep the masses relatively uneducated and unwilling to make serious efforts to invest in education. It is, and always has been, to the elite's advantage to minimize upward mobility allowing just enough opportunity to be able to point out a few exceptions that make the rule. Hey, kudos to those who do make it!

[Heng]

So it's the responsibility of Thai Chinese parents to educate other people's children?

aren't they the ones holding the positions in government responsible for the policies?

Government as parent? What are the children's REAL parents doing?

Doesn't fortune/God/karma help those that help themselves?

I would agree that parenting in Thailand is abysmal - at least in the rural areas.

From what I've observed, they have no concept of discipline, hence the difficulty in getting Thai kids to pay attention in class... if they can even forgo the mall and come to class. I see parents employ the same discipline technique with their kids as they do their dogs -- absolutely none.

But that's part of the problem... an important part, indeed, but only part.

The educational system, from what I understand from my wife (who has a "bachelor's degree"), simply doesn't challenge students to think outside the box or how to research and solve problems that they haven't been spoon-fed the answer to. My wife, bless her heart, has a degree in Statistics from a "Top 5" university in Thailand, yet still requires a calculator to subtract from 100.

I told her about my undergrad requirements for individual research, analysis, and reporting. And how even sometimes had to choose my own subject/topic (whoa now)!!! She told me she was never challenged like that -- Pick my own topic?? Research? All on my own? wha-wha-whaaat?

I look at it from the point of view that by the time it reaches the 'formal education' stage, the kids who didn't grow up on a solid foundation at home will have a much much tougher time trying to patch a foundation together. Some do, most don't.

That's why in these discussions I always suggest that the most important part is the beginning, in the home. Take a kid who takes up tennis at age 2 compared to one who doesn't even step onto a tennis court until age 10 or later. It's no contest, it's not even close.

[Heng]

So what "advantage" did the first and subsequent generations of relatively *uneducated* Thai-Chinese have (you, know, the ones who managed to gain control of the entire economy from the ground up)?

The primary advantage that even the poorest Chinese immigrants had over the indigenous Tai folks is that they hailed from a society that had long been monetized. Even 'uneducated' Chinese migrants understood concepts like money, loans, and interest. Thailand monetized its society rather late in the game moving away from trading, corvee labor, and outright slavery, a most common social condition until later in the 19th century. The ruling high sakdina elite found it convenient to keep the indigenous people poor and ignorant and bring in outsiders to interact with the newly emerging monetized economy that was now interacting with the outside world. Specifically, the various courts and palaces intentionally hired immigrant Chinese to become the 'tax farmers', the people who would collect the modern taxes that no longer were to be paid in labor. This is similar to how the European states and principalities once brought in a Jewish minority to run their commercial affairs, but they would then expel those same people at a later date. The savviest of the Chinese in Thailand quickly dominated the financial markets and closed the financial markets off to all but fellow Sino-Thais as well as their old partners and enablers, the old ruling high sakdina families, and later also the handful of Thais who climbed, really fought, their way to the top of the military and police ladders as those two institutions tended to be reserved for ethnic Thais. When I first lived in Thailand nearly 30 years ago, an ethnic Tai had no chance of obtaining credit from a bank, heck, they could not even get a job as a teller at a bank. I have been told that things have improved over the past decade.

Today Thailand is no different than many countries, including the US, where the ruling elite prefers to keep the masses relatively uneducated and unwilling to make serious efforts to invest in education. It is, and always has been, to the elite's advantage to minimize upward mobility allowing just enough opportunity to be able to point out a few exceptions that make the rule. Hey, kudos to those who do make it!

Thanks for the detailed first paragraph.

Again though, in your closing it still sounds like you're one of those folks who if he found himself in 200th place in a marathon, running hours behind the pack.... would just give up, blame the competition for one's own shortcomings (and possibly the race organizers who were apparently conspiring against him), instead of finishing the race. The race is ongoing, and those who find themselves far behind can certainly do something about it. "Keeping the masses relatively uneducated." As if the Jews or the early Thai Chinese (or hua-ren anywhere else) have ever had their 'education' -or anything else- handed to them.

Yeah, you're not going to go from Issanite bank teller to the president of a bank in one generation, but it doesn't mean you should just roll over, give up, and whine about it either. There's absolutely no conspiracy keeping an ambitious Issanite from saving some of his income, renting a market stall, maybe later on a few stalls, then a shop, then perhaps buying the shop building, etc.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Heng

[Johpa]

Again though, in your closing it still sounds like you're one of those folks who if he found himself in 200th place in a marathon, running hours behind the pack.... would just give up, blame the competition for one's own shortcomings (and possibly the race organizers who were apparently conspiring against him), instead of finishing the race. The race is ongoing, and those who find themselves far behind can certainly do something about it. "Keeping the masses relatively uneducated." As if the Jews or the early Thai Chinese (or hua-ren anywhere else) have ever had their 'education' -or anything else- handed to them.

Heng, I have absolutely no clue where you are coming from for the ad hominem attack other than perhaps some deep rooted insecurities that cause you to trash talk others. You asked what were the advantages of the earlier Chinese immigrants to Thailand over the indigenous populations and I provided some answers from a historical perspective. Nobody is ever handed anything, but then again, the playing field is not level as you seem to imagine.

[cloudhopper]

Today Thailand is no different than many countries, including the US, where the ruling elite prefers to keep the masses relatively uneducated and unwilling to make serious efforts to invest in education. It is, and always has been, to the elite's advantage to minimize upward mobility allowing just enough opportunity to be able to point out a few exceptions that make the rule.

I also found the first paragraph of this post very informative. While I can't comment on Thailand, I went to public tax payer-funded schools in the US all the way through doctorate level, and the above quoted paragraph is utter bullshit IMO and I am not one of the few exceptions to this "rule". I invite you to point out just how the "ruling elite" accomplishes what you allege is happening in the US.

[Heng]

Again though, in your closing it still sounds like you're one of those folks who if he found himself in 200th place in a marathon, running hours behind the pack.... would just give up, blame the competition for one's own shortcomings (and possibly the race organizers who were apparently conspiring against him), instead of finishing the race. The race is ongoing, and those who find themselves far behind can certainly do something about it. "Keeping the masses relatively uneducated." As if the Jews or the early Thai Chinese (or hua-ren anywhere else) have ever had their 'education' -or anything else- handed to them.

Heng, I have absolutely no clue where you are coming from for the ad hominem attack other than perhaps some deep rooted insecurities that cause you to trash talk others. You asked what were the advantages of the earlier Chinese immigrants to Thailand over the indigenous populations and I provided some answers from a historical perspective. Nobody is ever handed anything, but then again, the playing field is not level as you seem to imagine.

Lolz. Way to avoid discussion. I'll say it again...

---

Thanks for the detailed first paragraph.

Again though, in your closing it still sounds like you're one of those folks who if he found himself in 200th place in a marathon, running hours behind the pack.... would just give up, blame the competition for one's own shortcomings (and possibly the race organizers who were apparently conspiring against him), instead of finishing the race. The race is ongoing, and those who find themselves far behind can certainly do something about it. "Keeping the masses relatively uneducated." As if the Jews or the early Thai Chinese (or hua-ren anywhere else) have ever had their 'education' -or anything else- handed to them.

Yeah, you're not going to go from Issanite bank teller to the president of a bank in one generation, but it doesn't mean you should just roll over, give up, and whine about it either. There's absolutely no conspiracy keeping an ambitious Issanite from saving some of his income, renting a market stall, maybe later on a few stalls, then a shop, then perhaps buying the shop building, etc.

---

I never said the playing field was level. In fact generation upon generation and even within the same generation the playing field is IN FACT hopelessly uneven. From birth, when a child is raised by two (let's say Thai Chinese) parents who can afford better nutrition (which IMO in itself is a huge advantage in life in terms of health and intellectual development), more quality time, and a better learning environment compared to say an Issanite baby whose parent(s) cares for them for a few months and then hands the child over to the grandparents so that they can get back to the business of making a living (who knows what these kids are eating or doing in their free time, as long as they keep breathing). When it finally comes time to go to school or to start making a living: the latter are already completely outclassed. IMO there aren't any gov't policies (or conspiracy on the part of the ruling elite or well to do) that can cause this to happen nor are there any that can effectively reverse this situation. If anything, it just sounds like they might be guilty of being better parents.

My point is, despite the uneven playing field, one can still make *relative* progress in life. It's a given that to hope for the exact same progress would be impractical and near impossible.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Heng

[Unfaithful]

I think public educaton here is 99% hopeless.I stopped teaching Thais except those willing to pay for private lessons-usually those going to Western unis.Part of it is cultural, and non-Chinese.I thank Buddha I have no children here.

[Johpa]

Today Thailand is no different than many countries, including the US, where the ruling elite prefers to keep the masses relatively uneducated and unwilling to make serious efforts to invest in education. It is, and always has been, to the elite's advantage to minimize upward mobility allowing just enough opportunity to be able to point out a few exceptions that make the rule.

I also found the first paragraph of this post very informative. While I can't comment on Thailand, I went to public tax payer-funded schools in the US all the way through doctorate level, and the above quoted paragraph is utter bullshit IMO and I am not one of the few exceptions to this "rule". I invite you to point out just how the "ruling elite" accomplishes what you allege is happening in the US.

The simplest manner to elucidate my position is simply to take note of the lack of funding for public education in nations such as Thailand or the US. Here is a link to a list countries ranked by spending on education as a per cent of GDP. Note that the US is ranked #38 and Thailand is ranked #49. Also note the efforts the elites take to have their children educated outside the public education system, whether it be the Sathits or Assumptions or Montforts in Thailand or the Exeters, Andovers, Sidwells or Lakesides in the US. Even worse, in the US, funding for primary and secondary public education in the US is gathered at the local level using tax levies based upon property taxes, thus insuring that those who live in wealthier neighborhoods have better funding than those in poorer neighborhoods.

Now certainly there are exceptional students who come from poorer socio-economic backgrounds who do succeed and perhaps you are one of those exceptional students. But at our local high school here in the US that draws primarily from the lower-middle class and down, the graduation rate is a mere 30%. Certainly it is a complicated issue, and socio-economic level has the highest correlation to academic success of any variable, but the system is structured to provide a mediocre education to the masses.

[cloudhopper]

I agree that public education in the US, at least at the compulsory levels, is mediocre. Just about every government program is, and the wealthy will always be able to afford better private alternatives whether it be education or health care. I am objecting to your contention that there is a deliberate public policy by a "ruling elite" to "keep the masses relatively uneducated", at least with respect to the US. Furthermore I can imagine no sensible reason why such a policy would be advantageous to any class or country.

[Heng]

Today Thailand is no different than many countries, including the US, where the ruling elite prefers to keep the masses relatively uneducated and unwilling to make serious efforts to invest in education. It is, and always has been, to the elite's advantage to minimize upward mobility allowing just enough opportunity to be able to point out a few exceptions that make the rule.

I also found the first paragraph of this post very informative. While I can't comment on Thailand, I went to public tax payer-funded schools in the US all the way through doctorate level, and the above quoted paragraph is utter bullshit IMO and I am not one of the few exceptions to this "rule". I invite you to point out just how the "ruling elite" accomplishes what you allege is happening in the US.

The simplest manner to elucidate my position is simply to take note of the lack of funding for public education in nations such as Thailand or the US. Here is a link to a list countries ranked by spending on education as a per cent of GDP. Note that the US is ranked #38 and Thailand is ranked #49. Also note the efforts the elites take to have their children educated outside the public education system, whether it be the Sathits or Assumptions or Montforts in Thailand or the Exeters, Andovers, Sidwells or Lakesides in the US. Even worse, in the US, funding for primary and secondary public education in the US is gathered at the local level using tax levies based upon property taxes, thus insuring that those who live in wealthier neighborhoods have better funding than those in poorer neighborhoods.

Now certainly there are exceptional students who come from poorer socio-economic backgrounds who do succeed and perhaps you are one of those exceptional students. But at our local high school here in the US that draws primarily from the lower-middle class and down, the graduation rate is a mere 30%. Certainly it is a complicated issue, and socio-economic level has the highest correlation to academic success of any variable, but the system is structured to provide a mediocre education to the masses.

Interesting that you choose not to credit the families who presumably have worked harder to create, preserve, and increase their wealth... whether it's to pay the higher school taxes (ala my public school district back in Texas) or higher entry and tuition fees for the better schools here. You're also trying to ignore (or disagree with, which is fine... but you seem to be ignoring it more than trying to discuss it or argue against it), that much of these advantages that some folks have begins at home. It also seems like you can't accept that the well to do in most societies had to go through the same mediocre education systems at some point (the common line by like minded critics here is that "all or most of the well to do were educated abroad".... which is just an incomplete observation of some 2nd and nth generation wealth).

Your whole argument seems to be 'not fair, you're not sharing.' And 'I call a do over and no take backs.' I certainly concede that mine can be summed up as 'If you earn it, you should be able to decide where you spend it.'

Edited August 19, 2008 by Heng

[samskywalker]

Today Thailand is no different than many countries, including the US, where the ruling elite prefers to keep the masses relatively uneducated and unwilling to make serious efforts to invest in education. It is, and always has been, to the elite's advantage to minimize upward mobility allowing just enough opportunity to be able to point out a few exceptions that make the rule.

I also found the first paragraph of this post very informative. While I can't comment on Thailand, I went to public tax payer-funded schools in the US all the way through doctorate level, and the above quoted paragraph is utter bullshit IMO and I am not one of the few exceptions to this "rule". I invite you to point out just how the "ruling elite" accomplishes what you allege is happening in the US.

The simplest manner to elucidate my position is simply to take note of the lack of funding for public education in nations such as Thailand or the US. Here is a link to a list countries ranked by spending on education as a per cent of GDP. Note that the US is ranked #38 and Thailand is ranked #49. Also note the efforts the elites take to have their children educated outside the public education system, whether it be the Sathits or Assumptions or Montforts in Thailand or the Exeters, Andovers, Sidwells or Lakesides in the US. Even worse, in the US, funding for primary and secondary public education in the US is gathered at the local level using tax levies based upon property taxes, thus insuring that those who live in wealthier neighborhoods have better funding than those in poorer neighborhoods.

Now certainly there are exceptional students who come from poorer socio-economic backgrounds who do succeed and perhaps you are one of those exceptional students. But at our local high school here in the US that draws primarily from the lower-middle class and down, the graduation rate is a mere 30%. Certainly it is a complicated issue, and socio-economic level has the highest correlation to academic success of any variable, but the system is structured to provide a mediocre education to the masses.

Interesting that you choose not to credit the families who presumably have worked harder to create, preserve, and increase their wealth... whether it's to pay the higher school taxes (ala my public school district back in Texas) or higher entry and tuition fees for the better schools here. You're also trying to ignore (or disagree with, which is fine... but you seem to be ignoring it more than trying to discuss it or argue against it), that much of these advantages that some folks have begins at home. It also seems like you can't accept that the well to do in most societies had to go through the same mediocre education systems at some point (the common line by like minded critics here is that "all or most of the well to do were educated abroad".... which is just an incomplete observation of some 2nd and nth generation wealth).

Your whole argument seems to be 'not fair, you're not sharing.' And 'I call a do over and no take backs.' I certainly concede that mine can be summed up as 'If you earn it, you should be able to decide where you spend it.'

I agree that Thailand has a serious problem with its educational system and approach. Until they begin to fix it it won't work. I have been a fully degreed teacher for 38 of the last 40 years, having just stopped teaching at a local Thai University 2 years ago. When I arrived there 10 years ago there were absolutely no real materials available in the department. I and the other farang (I prefer the word-foreign) teachers were tasked with not only teaching many courses but to prepare the materials so the Thai teachers could "follow our example." I wrote 11 different course books in that time and had Thai teahers sit in on my classes. I had to teach 31 different courses in the department over that time so that my skills could be used to the fullest. They could have just taken notes and observed, but they requested a complete set of the syllabi and all teaching materials. They had no confidence whatsoever in preparing their own materials. The best they had done to the time I arrived was to xerox copy portions of books prepared in the US, UK or elsewhere. But again the tests they administered had little to do with what they had taught. Three of the Thai teachers were seeking to earn a PhD. It is amazing how much they asked me to do for them in respect to preparing their research, correcting their atrocious mistake-filled grammar, poor setence construction, actual re-writing and revising etc. When they had achieved their "doctorates" they no longer needed my services. They choose to move out and look for Filipino teachers because they were cheaper to employ and perhaps easier to control. Until the teachers get serious abut working hard to create their own materials I feel the efforts made by the foreigners are lost in space. I still provide materials and advice to primary and secondary schools on my own time and without remuneration--- once a teacher, always a teacher I suppose. I organize and conduct English camps etc and bring in loads of non-Thai volunteers to assist. Currently 17 orphaned children reside with us and I can guarantee that each one is at the top of their class or almost so. My old university has now invited me back to teach even though I am over 60 just so the students can have a native speaker. The Thai teachers are still trying to teach English by talking about it in Thai. Until they adopt western approaches to English language or any other foreign language teaching they will be doomed to continue to put out dismal product and the children are the ones who will suffer. The Thai teachers will continue to draw their salaries and go through the motions until they retire.

[baanthale]

Your whole argument seems to be 'not fair, you're not sharing.' And 'I call a do over and no take backs.' I certainly concede that mine can be summed up as 'If you earn it, you should be able to decide where you spend it.'

So were does the famous Thai nationalism fit in in this frase? Seems to me more like "each for their own". You know Heng, I don't think anyone want you to give all your money away, or become poor again. I think what most here try to say, is that the well-off's together with the not so well off, should try to widen their mind and spectrum a little and not just work hard and be smart for them self, in their own little spot, but instead work together for a better nation. That would benefit all your society, also the well off's. This is what most here would call good nationalism.

[Heng]

So were does the famous Thai nationalism fit in in this frase? Seems to me more like "each for their own". You know Heng, I don't think anyone want you to give all your money away, or become poor again. I think what most here try to say, is that the well-off's together with the not so well off, should try to widen their mind and spectrum a little and not just work hard and be smart for them self, in their own little spot, but instead work together for a better nation. That would benefit all your society, also the well off's. This is what most here would call good nationalism.

Not sure what Thai nationalism has to do with this discussion.

What makes you think that providing the best one can provide for one's own family and providing employment and sometimes educational opportunities for the masses isn't good for the nation? Ever notice how there are rarely any mass layoffs here (and that's despite the fact that there aren't even any unions to worry about), no matter how many economists -both real and the armchair version you find on forums like these- are crying out that the sky is falling?

Or is it somehow 'not enough' for your own standards? I guarantee you that if every two parents took care of their own two children to the best of their ability, one wouldn't even have to dream up crazy gov't schemes and educational programs to unravel the ball of twine that develops when millions of people don't do so.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Heng

[baanthale]

So were does the famous Thai nationalism fit in in this frase? Seems to me more like "each for their own". You know Heng, I don't think anyone want you to give all your money away, or become poor again. I think what most here try to say, is that the well-off's together with the not so well off, should try to widen their mind and spectrum a little and not just work hard and be smart for them self, in their own little spot, but instead work together for a better nation. That would benefit all your society, also the well off's. This is what most here would call good nationalism.

Not sure what Thai nationalism has to do with this discussion.

Nationalism can be good or bad. An example of bad nationalism is when it's used as a tool to keep people down, and never give them any fair chance!

What makes you think that providing the best one can provide for one's own family and providing employment and sometimes educational opportunities for the masses isn't good for the nation? ???

Ever notice how there are rarely any mass layoffs here (and that's despite the fact that there aren't even any unions to worry about), no matter how many economists -both real and the armchair version you find on forums like these- are crying out that the sky is falling?

I don't know if there is less layoffs in Thailand then most other places. If there is, an explanation could be, that a company's greatest resource (workers), are so underpaid that there is no money to save, to lay them off. Most first world countries will have to help people who loose their job, not just kick them out, so you do not just fire workers without reasons!

Or is it somehow 'not enough' for your own standards? I guarantee you that if every two parents took care of their own two children to the best of their ability, one wouldn't even have to dream up crazy gov't schemes and educational programs to unravel the ball of twine that develops when millions of people don't do so.

Yes, you are right, Thailand is not enough by my standards, and I would say the majority of Thais would agree with me! Yes, I agree with you, all parents should take care of their children, but everything is not white or black. A good start to take good care of your children would be to have the time for it, hard to have time over after 12 hours work, 6 days a week in locations far from home! Also as you know, if one parent leave the family, there is no protection at all for the parent left with the children. Yeah, maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place, but that's how it is! When it comes to government schemes and education programs you are totally wrong, and there is a lot of country's on this planet to prove it (US might not be one of them)! A lot of country's helps their citizens trough education needs and other needs if necessary, and this country's are a lot more well off then Thailand. Maybe they can't claim to have the richest person in the world or the richest family in the world, but as a whole country, they are normally VERY wealth compared!

[Heng]

Nationalism can be good or bad. An example of bad nationalism is when it's used as a tool to keep people down, and never give them any fair chance!

You're still not explaining how nationalism is being used here. A few examples of how it's used as a tool to keep people down and how people aren't being given a fair chance would be nice.

What makes you think that providing the best one can provide for one's own family and providing employment and sometimes educational opportunities for the masses isn't good for the nation? ???

My contention is that when you provide for your own family, you're already doing better than the gov't can ever do. If anything, that should be the main focus of any gov't. Promoting self sufficiency and reducing the amount of handouts.

Ever notice how there are rarely any mass layoffs here (and that's despite the fact that there aren't even any unions to worry about), no matter how many economists -both real and the armchair version you find on forums like these- are crying out that the sky is falling?

I don't know if there is less layoffs in Thailand then most other places. If there is, an explanation could be, that a company's greatest resource (workers), are so underpaid that there is no money to save, to lay them off. Most first world countries will have to help people who loose their job, not just kick them out, so you do not just fire workers without reasons!

Illogical. There's always money to be saved. But they don't do it. Employees here enjoy much more stable employment security than a lot of places in the world, and that's even through economic downturns. It might not be enough remuneration for everyone to own their own home, but they certainly don't have to worry about not having enough to eat either. What we did at our speaker factory post-97 was reduce everyone's shifts to where everyone still had a job (and bellies full), but just working less. Laws or in some cases union regs in other countries would have prevented this because it would be that almost everyone would be working beneath a "minimum" pay level or amount of hours worked. Great, so it would have meant axing a % of the workforce so that the remaining % would still be "up to standards."

Yes, you are right, Thailand is not enough by my standards, and I would say the majority of Thais would agree with me! Yes, I agree with you, all parents should take care of their children, but everything is not white or black. A good start to take good care of your children would be to have the time for it, hard to have time over after 12 hours work, 6 days a week in locations far from home! Also as you know, if one parent leave the family, there is no protection at all for the parent left with the children. Yeah, maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place, but that's how it is! When it comes to government schemes and education programs you are totally wrong, and there is a lot of country's on this planet to prove it (US might not be one of them)! A lot of country's helps their citizens trough education needs and other needs if necessary, and this country's are a lot more well off then Thailand. Maybe they can't claim to have the richest person in the world or the richest family in the world, but as a whole country, they are normally VERY wealth compared!

All you're *seeing* is people who aren't successful by your standards and assuming it's someone else's fault other than their own. "But that's how it is" is no excuse for having children when you can't afford it (whether in money or in time). It's no excuse for the breakdown of nuclear families.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Heng

[Rhys]

Try a 200 student class, one western teacher ..pretty much tells it.. they (Thai ADM) want eh.. the bucks.. only.. quality of education.. go to the other countries.. a bit of history...tidbit.. YES.. in fact during the DAY. The Chinese Community of the south.. took it upon themselves to educated their own.. and some of the local Thais in their area.. The was back in the Rubber Boom Days...

[baanthale]

Nationalism can be good or bad. An example of bad nationalism is when it's used as a tool to keep people down, and never give them any fair chance!

You're still not explaining how nationalism is being used here. A few examples of how it's used as a tool to keep people down and how people aren't being given a fair chance would be nice.

I think you know very well what I mean regarding nationalism, for example, it is really interesting about all this trillions of laws and regulations regarding foreign investment in this country. Who made up all this regulations, and exactly who benefits from all this regulations?? Sure it's not the average factory worker who benefits from Thailands blockage of competition The nationalism seems to just be used only when it comes to protect a few from "evil" competition, but when it comes to responsibility for the average citizen, it's not important with nationalism any more, nationalism is suddenly exchanged by "each for their own" and "blame your self" Again, evil competition could raise salary's, and could lead to that people got educated.

What makes you think that providing the best one can provide for one's own family and providing employment and sometimes educational opportunities for the masses isn't good for the nation? ???

My contention is that when you provide for your own family, you're already doing better than the gov't can ever do. If anything, that should be the main focus of any gov't. Promoting self sufficiency and reducing the amount of handouts.

And were did I or anyone else state something else?? I agree with you on this point!

Ever notice how there are rarely any mass layoffs here (and that's despite the fact that there aren't even any unions to worry about), no matter how many economists -both real and the armchair version you find on forums like these- are crying out that the sky is falling?

I don't know if there is less layoffs in Thailand then most other places. If there is, an explanation could be, that a company's greatest resource (workers), are so underpaid that there is no money to save, to lay them off. Most first world countries will have to help people who loose their job, not just kick them out, so you do not just fire workers without reasons!

Illogical. There's always money to be saved. But they don't do it. Employees here enjoy much more stable employment security than a lot of places in the world, and that's even through economic downturns. It might not be enough remuneration for everyone to own their own home, but they certainly don't have to worry about not having enough to eat either. What we did at our speaker factory post-97 was reduce everyone's shifts to where everyone still had a job (and bellies full), but just working less. Laws or in some cases union regs in other countries would have prevented this because it would be that almost everyone would be working beneath a "minimum" pay level or amount of hours worked. Great, so it would have meant axing a % of the workforce so that the remaining % would still be "up to standards."

The only reason you don't layoff underpaid workers, is because they are the company's greatest resource, without them you have to close, if you don't want to get your own hands dirty! Your factory would stand still without anyone working, thats why you shouldn't see it as your own factory, your staff have a part in it to. Good nationalism is to ride out storms together

Yes, you are right, Thailand is not enough by my standards, and I would say the majority of Thais would agree with me! Yes, I agree with you, all parents should take care of their children, but everything is not white or black. A good start to take good care of your children would be to have the time for it, hard to have time over after 12 hours work, 6 days a week in locations far from home! Also as you know, if one parent leave the family, there is no protection at all for the parent left with the children. Yeah, maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place, but that's how it is! When it comes to government schemes and education programs you are totally wrong, and there is a lot of country's on this planet to prove it (US might not be one of them)! A lot of country's helps their citizens trough education needs and other needs if necessary, and this country's are a lot more well off then Thailand. Maybe they can't claim to have the richest person in the world or the richest family in the world, but as a whole country, they are normally VERY wealth compared!

All you're *seeing* is people who aren't successful by your standards and assuming it's someone else's fault other than their own. "But that's how it is" is no excuse for having children when you can't afford it (whether in money or in time). It's no excuse for the breakdown of nuclear families.

Read above again!

[Heng]

Nationalism can be good or bad. An example of bad nationalism is when it's used as a tool to keep people down, and never give them any fair chance!

You're still not explaining how nationalism is being used here. A few examples of how it's used as a tool to keep people down and how people aren't being given a fair chance would be nice.

I think you know very well what I mean regarding nationalism, for example, it is really interesting about all this trillions of laws and regulations regarding foreign investment in this country. Who made up all this regulations, and exactly who benefits from all this regulations?? Sure it's not the average factory worker who benefits from Thailands blockage of competition The nationalism seems to just be used only when it comes to protect a few from "evil" competition, but when it comes to responsibility for the average citizen, it's not important with nationalism any more, nationalism is suddenly exchanged by "each for their own" and "blame your self" Again, evil competition could raise salary's, and could lead to that people got educated.

Uh, no, that's why I asked for examples. What I got was a vague general comment on FDI regulations? The reason why companies invest here is so that they can run their businesses at a local "standard," especially/most importantly at the pay level. You're deluding yourself if you think it's otherwise. Any better examples?

What makes you think that providing the best one can provide for one's own family and providing employment and sometimes educational opportunities for the masses isn't good for the nation? ???

My contention is that when you provide for your own family, you're already doing better than the gov't can ever do. If anything, that should be the main focus of any gov't. Promoting self sufficiency and reducing the amount of handouts.

And were did I or anyone else state something else?? I agree with you on this point!

Cool. As to where... you suggested that: "I think what most here try to say, is that the well-off's together with the not so well off, should try to widen their mind and spectrum a little and not just work hard and be smart for them self, in their own little spot, but instead work together for a better nation." That implies that people should take a more social commune type approach instead of taking care of their own affairs. I'm all for *helping out my neighbors* by keeping my own house, family, and yard in order. I'd be happy to exchange reciprocal gifts on important holidays and will also bring you some gifts or a package of fresh seafood once in awhile. But you need to take care of issues like educating your children and getting them prepped for life yourself. If only everyone else did the same. That IMO is what the gov't should be promoting, instead of promoting handcapped behavior with handouts and help-me-ups.

Ever notice how there are rarely any mass layoffs here (and that's despite the fact that there aren't even any unions to worry about), no matter how many economists -both real and the armchair version you find on forums like these- are crying out that the sky is falling?

I don't know if there is less layoffs in Thailand then most other places. If there is, an explanation could be, that a company's greatest resource (workers), are so underpaid that there is no money to save, to lay them off. Most first world countries will have to help people who loose their job, not just kick them out, so you do not just fire workers without reasons!

Illogical. There's always money to be saved. But they don't do it. Employees here enjoy much more stable employment security than a lot of places in the world, and that's even through economic downturns. It might not be enough remuneration for everyone to own their own home, but they certainly don't have to worry about not having enough to eat either. What we did at our speaker factory post-97 was reduce everyone's shifts to where everyone still had a job (and bellies full), but just working less. Laws or in some cases union regs in other countries would have prevented this because it would be that almost everyone would be working beneath a "minimum" pay level or amount of hours worked. Great, so it would have meant axing a % of the workforce so that the remaining % would still be "up to standards."

The only reason you don't layoff underpaid workers, is because they are the company's greatest resource, without them you have to close, if you don't want to get your own hands dirty! Your factory would stand still without anyone working, thats why you shouldn't see it as your own factory, your staff have a part in it to. Good nationalism is to ride out storms together

You're making it too easy with your swiss-cheese logic. Cutting staff doesn't mean the owners going down to the factory floor and assembling speakers. Cutting staff here is the easiest and most logical thing to do, as there would be virtually no repercussions. Having underemployed workers creates more of a drain on the company than outright job cuts. The reason why there aren't any mass layoffs though is because there is a culture of family within many companies. Employees as distant relatives. That's why they are often called 'luk-nong.'

Yes, you are right, Thailand is not enough by my standards, and I would say the majority of Thais would agree with me! Yes, I agree with you, all parents should take care of their children, but everything is not white or black. A good start to take good care of your children would be to have the time for it, hard to have time over after 12 hours work, 6 days a week in locations far from home! Also as you know, if one parent leave the family, there is no protection at all for the parent left with the children. Yeah, maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place, but that's how it is! When it comes to government schemes and education programs you are totally wrong, and there is a lot of country's on this planet to prove it (US might not be one of them)! A lot of country's helps their citizens trough education needs and other needs if necessary, and this country's are a lot more well off then Thailand. Maybe they can't claim to have the richest person in the world or the richest family in the world, but as a whole country, they are normally VERY wealth compared!

All you're *seeing* is people who aren't successful by your standards and assuming it's someone else's fault other than their own. "But that's how it is" is no excuse for having children when you can't afford it (whether in money or in time). It's no excuse for the breakdown of nuclear families.

Read above again!

Read bold underlined text again. That's my reply to what you wrote above. I'd like to also add that it's again false logic to conclude that just because a country is wealthier, it's because the norms in place are better. One can no more conclude that just because my family is wealthier than another family, that our norms in place are better. Or would you disagree?

edit: (Heng in bold blue font)

Edited August 20, 2008 by Heng

[Johpa]

But you need to take care of issues like educating your children and getting them prepped for life yourself. If only everyone else did the same. That IMO is what the gov't should be promoting, instead of promoting handicapped behavior with handouts and help-me-ups.

Then perhaps we can assume that you were home schooled through secondary education?

[astral]

From my experience it is the teachers who are lacking in skill/experience, not materials.

My son's state school (Phathom grade) had an up to date language laboratory for teaching English

BUT the teacher was more at home speaking in Thai rather than English.

[Heng]

But you need to take care of issues like educating your children and getting them prepped for life yourself. If only everyone else did the same. That IMO is what the gov't should be promoting, instead of promoting handicapped behavior with handouts and help-me-ups.

Then perhaps we can assume that you were home schooled through secondary education?

In many of the lessons that matter (basic math at an early age, simple interest, work ethic, the value of money, the importance of saving and investing, that real estate is forever, etc.), as I've mentioned more than a few times, yes.

For all of the general often less than applicable in real life stuff (geography, social studies, geography, calculus, etc.), yes, I had standard fare public education. I think I could have spared my folks some tax dollars and lived in a worse off neighborhood if one were to just focus on the "education" benefits.

Your point? (none, as usual... other than you are still hoping to pin the blame of some of life's dissatisfactions on others)

Edited August 20, 2008 by Heng

[Spee]

Today Thailand is no different than many countries, including the US, where the ruling elite prefers to keep the masses relatively uneducated and unwilling to make serious efforts to invest in education. It is, and always has been, to the elite's advantage to minimize upward mobility allowing just enough opportunity to be able to point out a few exceptions that make the rule.

I also found the first paragraph of this post very informative. While I can't comment on Thailand, I went to public tax payer-funded schools in the US all the way through doctorate level, and the above quoted paragraph is utter bullshit IMO and I am not one of the few exceptions to this "rule". I invite you to point out just how the "ruling elite" accomplishes what you allege is happening in the US.

Note that the US is ranked #38 and Thailand is ranked #49.

While I'm inclined to agree that these numbers are reasonably accurate and reflective, I would also speculate that the US number has been gradually falling over the last several generations while Thailand's has probably been gradually increasing. Neither number is worthy of huge praise, but like anything else that is statistical in nature, the numbers should be kept in perspective.

I would also suggest that both systems have general policies of passing everyone to the next grade regardless of their educational advancement or lack thereof. The same goes for the dropout rate. All young people should be required to be in school until they are at least 16 (preferably 18) or until they graduate from secondary school. I think that society fails its children by not mandating a certain degree of education for each child.

Now certainly there are exceptional students who come from poorer socio-economic backgrounds who do succeed and perhaps you are one of those exceptional students. But at our local high school here in the US that draws primarily from the lower-middle class and down, the graduation rate is a mere 30%.

I think there is plenty of blame across the board. I have tutored high school students who would be termed socially disadvantaged. Their motivations ranged from non-existent to very high and their achievements were reflective of it.

When I am at the house in Thailand, I notice that it is very difficult for my partner's daughter to study because of all the commotion around. I have commented many times that she needs quiet time to pay attention and concentrate on her homework. There just isn't enough motivation at home for her to study, but I am gradually working on it. My partner and I have spoken of her going abroad on a student exchange program, perhaps to the US, but I don't think either my partner or her daughter realize how much studying she will have to do in language and basic studies, in order for an exchange to be successful.

She's a reasonably intelligent kid, probably about the same as everyone else. When she rushes her studies, she makes mistakes. When she takes her time and does them right, then she does them well. However, like every kid, while she needs to learn to be patient and take her time to learn, she also needs to be given the opportunity for some quiet time to calm down, settle down and be patient when studying.

Personally, when I do troubleshooting in my work, I take the strategies of divide/conquer and simplify. For education aqnd schooling, this means getting back to basics. If a school can't teach a child basic arithmetic/mathematics, reading/writing/speech, and basic civics, then the school isn't going to be able to teach much of anything else either.

I have tutored all ages of people in arithmetic and mathematics for as long as I can remember. If someday it would be worthwhile and acceptable for me to become a math teach in Thailand, then it is something that I would consider. When I was going to school, among others I was lucky to have a Spanish teacher from Spain and European history professors from Germany and Austria. Oh, and I've also been lucky to have Thai teachers from Thailand. I would think that the leaders of the Thai schools have always wanted, and will always want to have international teachers as part of the school network.

[lifeisrandom]

i just want to say i feel bad for all those kids going to tutoring in siam square on a saturday

asian parents (the rich ones i guess) are tough