Lease Or Usufruct In Banchang

[longball53098]

Hey All,

I want to float this question to all in the Banchang area of Rayong.

I will be completing the payments on a rai of land in Phala Beach soon. The chanote will be registered in my wife's name. I/we intend to build a house on the land within a short time of transferring the land to her.

I have read countless threads related to leasing, usufructs, superficies and anything else I can find related to land and house registration and ownership.

I also have been consulting with a local lawyer here in the area. Speaks reasonably good English. He is more than willing to work with us. He has a decent reputation here with other farangs and a direct recommendation from another man I know.

I have asked the lawyer what we should do when buying the land and he recommends the 30 year lease on the land and house. I question this and asked about a usufruct that I read so much about with a superficies for the house. He did not know what the usufruct was about and I could not explain in Thai. He said he would look into it and get back to me. In the meantime I sent him some web info from TV and other places explaining usufruct. He replied that now he understood and would look more into this method.

A week or so later he replied that he visited the officer here in Banchang land offices and had an extensive conversation about usufructs. The bottom line answer is the Banchang land officer says that they WILL NOT allow a usufruct to be registered here in Banchang between a Thai and a foreigner as they think this is not a legal method of registration. They will do a lease.

So I am now being told that the lease method is my only option here in Banchang.

My question here is:

Is there anyone living here in Banchang that has registered their land using a usufruct?

I want first hand knowledge if you did this. No need to tell me what you guess or what you heard and all the rest of the rumor stuff.

I keep reading about all these other people in other provinces that claim successes using the usufruct contract.

I don't want to pay some exorbitant amounts of baht to get there. This lawyer never suggested any money would help to convince the local land officer. It was a flat out, YOU CANNOT DO IT HERE IN BANCHANG

So, who has registered their land using a usufruct in Banchang?

How did you do it?

Who wrote the contract?

How much did you end up paying?

If you have a house on this land can you tell me how you show ownership of the house? This is another grey area for me. As it seems some people believe the Blue Book is how you show who owns the house. I dispute this as the Books are only to show the registration of "people" living at that house not who owns it. I believe the chanote and what is recorded on it state who owns what but I have no understanding here at all. If someone can clearly tell me what documents clearly state who owns said property/house I would be happy to read.

Thanks to all who can provide me with clear firsthand info on this.

:D

[Naam]

He did not know what the usufruct was about and I could not explain in Thai. He said he would look into it and get back to me.

forget this lawyer!

[Soutpeel]

He did not know what the usufruct was about .......I sent him some web info from TV and other places explaining usufruct. He replied that now he understood and would look more into this method.

A week or so later he replied that he visited the officer here in Banchang land offices and had an extensive conversation about usufructs. The bottom line answer is the Banchang land officer says that they WILL NOT allow a usufruct to be registered here in Banchang between a Thai and a foreigner as they think this is not a legal method of registration. They will do a lease.

Am I just being cynical, or could we detect a possible loss of face here ? as the lawyer doesnt appear to know his stuff, and the OP sent the info from TV, therefore the answer was always going to be..No can do

Would go with Naam's advice get a second opinion

[ThaiLawOnline]

A Land department refusing to register a usufruct between a foreigner and a Thai is VERY rare.

If you are married: NO PROBLEM. I really doubt what your lawyer is saying as it's in the manual of the land department!!! And you write that she is YOUR WIFE. A usufruct is NOT illegal, it's in the Law, for a long long time, it's included in some basic principles of property law in civil law, and the law of Thailand applies everywhere in Thailand. If it was illegal, we couldn't REGISTER THEM? Could we?

If you are NOT married with this Thai person, I KNOW ONE CASE ONLY in THE WHOLE THAILAND where the land department refused it. It was in Kalasin... I still want to try one day over there...maybe!

Local lawyers, even with a good reputation, normally do not know usufructs as they don't study them.

(That was confirmed to me by several Thai lawyers)

If you think usufructs are common in Thailand, we registered the first in Korat, in Tat Toom, in Nong Khai, in Khon Kaen, in Mukdahan, in Kuchinarai, in Kalasin, in Roiet, in Phayao and many other cities, all this in the last 2 years. They are still not common. That's a fact.

Officers at these land departments HAD NEVER SEEN one case before, as they told us. But this is Isaan. (except Phayao). You have probably much more foreigners in your area (near Rayong) than Isaan and it should be easier in your area. Land departments prefer to register a lease, as THEY KNOW THEM (easier)....and they get more taxes!!!!!!

But when we show them examples of usufructs done in other places, we call them before (always, we don't want to lose our time) and arrive with the manual they use in the land department, they normally don't want to lose face.

Ask another law firm in your area, it costs nothing to ask...

Good luck.

Seb.

[stgrhe]

If you have a house on this land can you tell me how you show ownership of the house? This is another grey area for me. As it seems some people believe the Blue Book is how you show who owns the house. I dispute this as the Books are only to show the registration of "people" living at that house not who owns it. I believe the chanote and what is recorded on it state who owns what but I have no understanding here at all. If someone can clearly tell me what documents clearly state who owns said property/house I would be happy to read.

Thanks to all who can provide me with clear firsthand info on this.

I think you have received an adequate reply from Issan Lawyers with regards to the Usufruct matter. The answer to the next question is that the land you register at the Land Office while the house should be registered at the Amphur's Head Office in the province where you live. It is perfectly legal for you to own the house on someone else's (in your case your wife) land.

I too think you should consider using another lawyer.

Good luck from me too,

Göran

[longball53098]

Thanks to the 4 or so folks that have posted a reply to the question. You all have something to say that can be considered---------even Naam in his usual way. Naam, you can be a stinger with your small worded replies and you never waste word space.

No one so far has actually said if they know firsthand of a usufruct in my local area of Banchang. Everything else is nice to know info and helps but is not real knowledge of it actually being registered. Maybe I will be the first and I can post it here. We shall wait and see unless someone beats me to the finish line.

As for lawyers? I never said I had any contracts with this lawyer. I only said I was talking with this firm and lawyer. To date I have "consulted" with at least 3 and one has responded that they have done usufructs in Rayong province but not for Banchang specifically yet.

So the question remains to be answered

[longball53098]

Hello, I am waking up this post from back a few months.

I am sure most people have not seen it or have forgotten my original question.

Has anyone successfully registered a Usufruct on the land owned by their wife/GF in the Banchang district of Rayong?

I think not.

I have now had it confirmed by two law firms that Banchang will NOT register a usufruct.

So I will amend this original post to say this:

Has anyone successfully registered a 30 year lease on the land the wife/GF owns here in Banchang?

I am especially interested in the process if you did this in the last month.

When did you do the lease? Date please?

How much did it cost?

Please describe the process you used to do this?

I need straight info on this not maybe's or whatever's or the I think you can do it. Please only if you personally have a lease registered.

Thanks in advance

[steve73]

Not Ban Chang, I know, but I registered a 30 yr lease for house and land (6.5 Rai) from my GF, in Tapong, Meuang, Rayong, a couple of years ago. Used a BKK lawyer though who was well versed, and he recommended the lease over the Usefruct. At my reccomendation another farang did the same in Had MaeRhumPhung last year using a local lawyer, by copying my lease contract (in Thai), and checked by my gf in case his (dodgy, IMO) gf tried to pull a fast one... He's now trying to (get her to) sell so we'll see how robust it is.

[loverboy44]

Not Ban Chang, I know, but I registered a 30 yr lease for house and land (6.5 Rai) from my GF, in Tapong, Meuang, Rayong, a couple of years ago. Used a BKK lawyer though who was well versed, and he recommended the lease over the Usefruct. At my reccomendation another farang did the same in Had MaeRhumPhung last year using a local lawyer, by copying my lease contract (in Thai), and checked by my gf in case his (dodgy, IMO) gf tried to pull a fast one... He's now trying to (get her to) sell so we'll see how robust it is.

Hello everyone,

when i read all of this it's always a bit of hearsay and even if someone registererd a usufruct and or leasehold you can never be sure if it was registered the right way. I know a bit about it but because it is only a bit i will not give this out as knowlage.

Some points which might be of help is the following.

1. Never ever use a lawyer from the area where you want to do business.

2. Thew best way to find a lawyer by going to your embassy and ask for a recommendation.

As i am german and worked with the embassy and met one very good one that speaks english, german and thai.

If you are interested in his name pm me because i don't want to da any advertising on any forum.

I hope this helps and one thing is for sure. Every land office has to register a usufruct wherever it is!

[longball53098]

Not Ban Chang, I know, but I registered a 30 yr lease for house and land (6.5 Rai) from my GF, in Tapong, Meuang, Rayong, a couple of years ago. Used a BKK lawyer though who was well versed, and he recommended the lease over the Usefruct. At my reccomendation another farang did the same in Had MaeRhumPhung last year using a local lawyer, by copying my lease contract (in Thai), and checked by my gf in case his (dodgy, IMO) gf tried to pull a fast one... He's now trying to (get her to) sell so we'll see how robust it is.

Hello everyone,

when i read all of this it's always a bit of hearsay and even if someone registererd a usufruct and or leasehold you can never be sure if it was registered the right way. I know a bit about it but because it is only a bit i will not give this out as knowlage.

Some points which might be of help is the following.

1. Never ever use a lawyer from the area where you want to do business.

2. Thew best way to find a lawyer by going to your embassy and ask for a recommendation.

As i am german and worked with the embassy and met one very good one that speaks english, german and thai.

If you are interested in his name pm me because i don't want to da any advertising on any forum.

I hope this helps and one thing is for sure. Every land office has to register a usufruct wherever it is!

Loverboy,

This is where I am hitting a brick wall. The local lawyer says the land office will not^^^^^^I say again will not register any usufruct in the area. They will only do a lease contract.

When I contacted Issan lawyers, they could not guarantee a usufruct but did say if the land office could not be convinced to register a usufruct they would do the lease also. I also contacted a Sunbelt Legal Advisors and they have worked in this area before and their lawyers talked to the land office and get the same response "NO USUFRUCT" , lease only is possible.

So your comment that every land office has to register a usufruct I think is not correct. But I really have not tried here in Banchang personally so I have no positive or negative to report. Maybe later when the house is finished and all the dust settles a bit I will look again at lease vs. usufruct and try the usufruct method and test the water so to speak and see what the land office says for sure.