Changing Citizenship

[teacup]

Bit of a cheek. Why should I be forced to change my family name to some meaningless name invented by a paper pusher? Wonder if there are any other countries doing this?

I guess it's fair in a way, as Taksin has been christened Frank Sinatra

Well many Chinese families had done it, because when they had it all up, the pros and the cons, ….. they think the benefits outweight the costs, for them.

They are not doing for themselves as now only but for their future generations to come as well.

I think thats fair enough, westerners adopting Thai names. Also I think countries like Australia should force Asians, when applying for citizenship, to change their name to either anglo-saxon/celtic or aboriginal.

Faranglandoz

I don’t know about Australia, but in the US……..

Many asians often change their names to american names - “by choice“, but still carry their Asian last names. It’s just a common sense thing to do because they know that westerners have trouble pronouncing their original names, so they take up western names, AMONG OTHER THINGS.….in order to try to be part of the majority and a sense of somewhat belonging. It’s just a matter of practicality, so therefore no sweat or put a dent on their prides for them.

They didn’t come to US with the “high and mighty” attitudes that everything should revolve around them.

AND....The ones that try soo hard to blend /assimilate in with the white culture here the most, are infact being called a derogatory name of the “whitewash” by their own asian group. Go figure!!

Isn’t that happening here in Thailand also that...... some farangs got laughed and being accused of trying to be “khonThai” by others farangs from their own group, when trying to take up many adjustments "in the thaily ways"?

Just check back on many threads/discussions here on TV

So…..dam_n if you do, dam_n if you don’t

So…..who is the one with the problem here, you think?

My comment is no mean aiming at you directly, but talking in the general sense from what I see and hear out there.

Edited August 22, 2008 by teacup

[Jingthing]

The difference, Ms. Tea, is that most of the Asians in the US are on green cards working on citizenship or already citizens or have been for several generations already. Here in Thailand, most of the "long term" European descent people are on temporary one year visas or extensions. Of course, there are some permanent residents, and a tiny number of European descent Thai citizens.

I frankly don't see how you seriously compare the two situations as a one to one.

Another difference, it is part of American culture to assimilate and an immigrant if he speaks English and works hard will be considered a real American within 5 or 10 years. For a European descent person to EVER be considered a Thai, well, you know very well, that doesn't happen except in some freakish exceptions.

BTW, I am not saying there is anything wrong with the way it is here in Thailand We choose to come here or to not come. It just annoys me when people get delusional about the way it is, and act like this is the same as a western country with regards to immigration and assimilation.

To sum it up, most of us are NON IMMIGRANTS, thats what our visas say, thats the way it is, thats the way the Thai power structure wants it, and hey, thats the way alot of us want to keep it too. Just face reality, thats all.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[teacup]

JT

Just a question…

How come some farangs have the problem - while other farangs don’t - of going ahead and trying to make adjustments anyway…….even when you all are under the same existing current immigration laws ?

[Jingthing]

JT

Just a question…

How come some farangs have the problem - while other farangs don’t - of going ahead and trying to make adjustments anyway…….even when you all are under the same existing current immigration laws ?

I guess people are different. Probably age as well.

Maybe you need to more specific. Adjustments? What exactly? We are mostly here on one year deals. If we are adjusted enough to want to keep staying, and we get approved by immigration, we stay that year. Same deal, every year. This is just totally different than immigrating to a western country that is open to diverse immigration. Obviously, people who realize they hate it here, well, they just leave.

(Obviously, the small minority of farangs here who are perm residents or Thai citizens are in a totally different status.)

Edited August 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[teacup]

There you go!! You have just answered “the main cause” of the problem here.

[Jingthing]

There you go!! You have just answered “the main cause” of the problem here.

Really? What is that? I didn't even realize there was a problem. What are you talking about???

Or maybe else can explain what Ms. Tee is saying?

Edited August 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[teacup]

From these......

Bit of a cheek. Why should I be forced to change my family name to some meaningless name invented by a paper pusher? Wonder if there are any other countries doing this?

Well many Chinese families had done it, because when they had it all up, the pros and the cons, ….. they think the benefits outweight the costs, for them.

They are not doing for themselves as now only but for their future generations to come as well.

I think thats fair enough, westerners adopting Thai names. Also I think countries like Australia should force Asians, when applying for citizenship, to change their name to either anglo-saxon/celtic or aboriginal.

Faranglandoz

I don’t know about Australia, but in the US……..

Many asians often change their names to american names - “by choice“, but still carry their Asian last names. It’s just a common sense thing to do because they know that westerners have trouble pronouncing their original names, so they take up western names, AMONG OTHER THINGS.….in order to try to be part of the majority and a sense of somewhat belonging. It’s just a matter of practicality, so therefore no sweat or put a dent on their prides for them.

They didn’t come to US with the “high and mighty” attitudes that everything should revolve around them.

AND....The ones that try soo hard to blend /assimilate in with the white culture here the most, are infact being called a derogatory name of the “whitewash” by their own asian group. Go figure!!

Isn’t that happening here in Thailand also that...... some farangs got laughed and being accused of trying to be “khonThai” by others farangs from their own group, when trying to take up many adjustments "in the thaily ways"?

Just check back on many threads/discussions here on TV

So…..dam_n if you do, dam_n if you don’t

So…..who is the one with the problem here, you think?

My comment is no mean aiming at you directly, but talking in the general sense from what I see and hear out there.

The difference, Ms. Tea, is that most of the Asians in the US are on green cards working on citizenship or already citizens or have been for several generations already. Here in Thailand, most of the "long term" European descent people are on temporary one year visas or extensions. Of course, there are some permanent residents, and a tiny number of European descent Thai citizens.

I frankly don't see how you seriously compare the two situations as a one to one.

Another difference, it is part of American culture to assimilate and an immigrant if he speaks English and works hard will be considered a real American within 5 or 10 years. For a European descent person to EVER be considered a Thai, well, you know very well, that doesn't happen except in some freakish exceptions.

BTW, I am not saying there is anything wrong with the way it is here in Thailand We choose to come here or to not come. It just annoys me when people get delusional about the way it is, and act like this is the same as a western country with regards to immigration and assimilation.

To sum it up, most of us are NON IMMIGRANTS, thats what our visas say, thats the way it is, thats the way the Thai power structure wants it, and hey, thats the way alot of us want to keep it too. Just face reality, thats all.

JT

Just a question…

How come some farangs have the problem - while other farangs don’t - of going ahead and trying to make adjustments anyway…….even when you all are under the same existing current immigration laws ?

JT

Just a question…

How come some farangs have the problem - while other farangs don’t - of going ahead and trying to make adjustments anyway…….even when you all are under the same existing current immigration laws ?

I guess people are different. Probably age as well.

There you go!! You have just answered “the main cause” of the problem here.

[Jingthing]

OK, so yes, different people react to the same strange situation, but that does not change the objective reality of immigration of European descent people to Thailand. European descent people in general DO NOT ever become Thai people, On the other hand, people from all over the world become real Americans, real Australians, real Canadians, real Argentinians, real Britishers, etc. Its just a different situation no matter how you rationalize it.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[Spee]

As a US citizen, I feel no compulsion to die for my country. Why should I? I have not pledged allegiance either.

Attributed to General George Patton:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

As to the OP:

- As an American citizen, I am endowed with certain inalienable rights, and economic and other personal freedoms. If Thailand were to grant me similar rights and freedoms, then I would be interested in dual citizenship. (Of course that assumes that both America and Thailand would allow dual citizenship.) It is not presently practical or economically viable to give up my US citizenship entirely.

- The only countries I know of that have "indoctrinations" of their citizens are horrendously failed regimes and the latest incarnations thereof.

- As far as protecting and defending Thailand, I'm probably too old and otherwise disqualified for military service. However, should the situation arise, I would fight and repel to my last dying breath if necessary, to protect and defend my Thai partner, her daughter and other members of my immediate family.

- One of the most mis-interpreted and twisted around quotes of all time is from President Kennedy: "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

It is not up to the citizens to serve their country. It is up to their country to serve the citizens.

My and other peoples' ancestors came to America primarily for economic freedom. That is, they came for the opportunity to pursue their own version of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Also, they came to seek the economic standing of their choosing, or limited by their own drive and intelligence, whether that meant a 40-year career on the assembly line, or becoming a self-made millionaire business owner.

If I could have those same kinds of freedoms in Thailand, and could maintain dual-citizenship between America and Thailand, then I would do it in a heartbeat.

[Naam]

would you be willing to die for thailand

i'd rather eat maccaroni/

[enyaw]

OK, so yes, different people react to the same strange situation, but that does not change the objective reality of immigration of European descent people to Thailand. European descent people in general DO NOT ever become Thai people, On the other hand, people from all over the world become real Americans, real Australians, real Canadians, real Argentinians, real Britishers, etc. Its just a different situation no matter how you rationalize it.

Britishers?

Anyway, I know what you mean but think your way off the mark by comparing your America with Thailand, on the scale of things your America is only a few years old and it needed a huge influx of immigrants to become.. what it has become!?

[Jingthing]

OK, so yes, different people react to the same strange situation, but that does not change the objective reality of immigration of European descent people to Thailand. European descent people in general DO NOT ever become Thai people, On the other hand, people from all over the world become real Americans, real Australians, real Canadians, real Argentinians, real Britishers, etc. Its just a different situation no matter how you rationalize it.

Britishers?

Anyway, I know what you mean but think your way off the mark by comparing your America with Thailand, on the scale of things your America is only a few years old and it needed a huge influx of immigrants to become.. what it has become!?

Maybe you want to translate that comment into clearer "British" because I have no idea what point you are making. The gist of my point was that you can NOT compare Thailand and the US with regards to immigrants and then you rebut me by saying the same thing? HUH?

Edited August 23, 2008 by Jingthing

[cobra]

Its academic for me though, too old, and too gay!

So per your previous post you protested the war (Viet Nam) and let others including myself do the heavy lifting for you,

And yes it is a contractual obligation to serve in the US if a draft is enacted, Leavenworth comes to mind, of course there's always the option of skipping to Canada,

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I am and will always be American no matter where i choose to live. I have fought for my country and was willing to die for it but not for any other. Though I have fought for people in countries other than America. For those so called Americans here who say they would not die for their country, they should know that they are lucky that better and braver men than they did die for the rights they and all Americans enjoy today.

I see you or your family will be dying for the murdering dictator of Georgia soon, try doing a little research before you blindly back someone who is willing to send innocents to die against the liberators of the South Ossetians that is Russia and Vladimir Putin against a dictator who murdered tens of thousands from this soon to be Republic.

I quote the old man "We are all Georgians today"

PS im right wing.

PPS No i wouldnt fight for Thailand to get citizenship, id have to see what wars they were involved in before i let my kids fight for them.

'ullo and goodbye Pyatt.

[sriracha john]

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Well, as a kid, I recited this pledge every school day with my hand on my heart and it went down easy enough.

All of us did... but some of us just don't have very good memory of events in our lives...

I have not pledged allegiance either.

[sriracha john]

I am and will always be American no matter where i choose to live. I have fought for my country and was willing to die for it but not for any other. Though I have fought for people in countries other than America. For those so called Americans here who say they would not die for their country, they should know that they are lucky that better and braver men than they did die for the rights they and all Americans enjoy today.

I see you or your family will be dying for the murdering dictator of Georgia soon, try doing a little research before you blindly back someone who is willing to send innocents to die against the liberators of the South Ossetians that is Russia and Vladimir Putin against a dictator who murdered tens of thousands from this soon to be Republic.

I quote the old man "We are all Georgians today"

PS im right wing.

PPS No i wouldnt fight for Thailand to get citizenship, id have to see what wars they were involved in before i let my kids fight for them.

'ullo and goodbye Pyatt.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I will probably die in Thailand but don't think that will do much for Thailand.

If LOS was to be invaded (for example by China) I would feel it would be beneficial to everyone for me to get the hel_l out of the way. The big question would be where to go, perhaps central america.

NO I wouldn't die for LOS or any other country for that matter. If counties want to go to war I think it should be resolved by the politicians who want war to all be put into a arena and whoever comes out wins.

[teacup]

OK, so yes, different people react to the same strange situation, but that does not change the objective reality of immigration of European descent people to Thailand.

European descent people in general DO NOT ever become Thai people,

You are beating the same bush again, JT

Of course a farang can not ever become a watermelon, it just would be impossible you know that….it calls nature of birth gene….duh

So there is nothing you can do about it!

On the other hand, people from all over the world become real Americans, real Australians, real Canadians, real Argentinians, real Britishers, etc. Its just a different situation no matter how you rationalize it.

Now this is a tricky statement. Can you “define” the word “real”?

Who are the “real” - brits, canadians, australians, argentinians…..

or

Who are the “real” american? Every citizen is an American. The only true native americans are Indians,.

In my mind……in a sense that is

A “real” American to me…….is someone w/ the american passport, who takes pride in their country as opposed to those who put “all” their time and effort into complaining about what's wrong with it.

The same goes for the “real” thai also, despite you may not look like the “real” thai in the outward appearance sense.

So yes a farang 'I believe' can get accepted by the thais to be one of us too…….

Just get the thai passport, be able to speak the language, and act like you are somewhat proud of this country “most” of the times.

Try it first. If it doesn't work then you can come back and complain again. Otherwise you are just beating on the same bush again and again until you die away one day.

Unless you don’t want one,…..and that is ok too - if you don't think the benefit outweights the cost. However just don’t complain first if you haven’t tried or don’t want to.

Edited August 23, 2008 by teacup

[geriatrickid]

would you be willing to pledge allegiance to Thailand and in doing so be willing to die for it?

Absolutely not.

There are however many foreigners in Thailand that are willing to put their lives on the line for the benefit of Thais and the advancement of Thai society. No one takes notice of them but they come from everywhere. There are Americans, Israelis and Germans up north doing infectious disease fieldwork where a needlestick or exposure to a deadly disease could kill them. Sometimes they get attacked by cross border bandits or robbed at gunpoint as was the case for a guy from the UK. There are Japanese, Dutch and Canadians working in the Malaria and insect borne disease units that put themselves in danger to collect field data. It's not glamourous and they do it with anonymity. If you ask a Thai about these people and what they do for the benefit of the population, they wouldn't know let alone acknowledge the contribution.

[grantbkk]

I suppose like some of the other posters the OP meant die IN Thailand. Don't worry about the songs or anthems. The upper crust of the feudal system here actually scoff at rules of law and of course operate using a double standard. In a country where only just over 5% pay personal income tax and lack of a second and third wife causes a loss of face just chill out in the Thai massage parlor and watch your cares disappear. I've been told by rich Thais that it is a sign of weakness to pay taxes.

I think operating with the mindset that getting a Thai passport to avoid the visa hassles here says it all. That is what this is about. The ultimate Elite Card program. If it is so important to own land go to someplace where you are allowed to as a foreigner. The power of the Thai Passport around the world has the same clout at worldwide entry points as one from Liberia, Iran or Nigeria. Do NOT give up your original passport. I know people who have four legitimate passports who change when traveling for their convenience. The only Thai passport that really can benefit you would be a diplomatic one.

[HASSELHOFF]

I wouldnt die for any country, no matter if it was my home country etc. I just want a normal life.

[enyaw]

OK, so yes, different people react to the same strange situation, but that does not change the objective reality of immigration of European descent people to Thailand. European descent people in general DO NOT ever become Thai people, On the other hand, people from all over the world become real Americans, real Australians, real Canadians, real Argentinians, real Britishers, etc. Its just a different situation no matter how you rationalize it.

Britishers?

Anyway, I know what you mean but think your way off the mark by comparing your America with Thailand, on the scale of things your America is only a few years old and it needed a huge influx of immigrants to become.. what it has become!?

Maybe you want to translate that comment into clearer "British" because I have no idea what point you are making. The gist of my point was that you can NOT compare Thailand and the US with regards to immigrants and then you rebut me by saying the same thing? HUH?

Sorry my error, I must of missed it. Contradictions can be confusing.

[12DrinkMore]

I've been told by rich Thais that it is a sign of weakness to pay taxes.

Been playnig golf with Frank, eh?

[gymshark]

I might not die for Thailand but maybe because of it, bloody taxi drivers !

[faranglandoz]

OK, so yes, different people react to the same strange situation, but that does not change the objective reality of immigration of European descent people to Thailand. European descent people in general DO NOT ever become Thai people, On the other hand, people from all over the world become real Americans, real Australians, real Canadians, real Argentinians, real Britishers, etc. Its just a different situation no matter how you rationalize it.

JT I agree with everything you have said. I think also,what is wrong is when you are allowed to buy a condo, but not neccessarily allowed to stay in the country. If you cant get a visa, you cant live in your condo.

Faranglandoz

[Jingthing]

Its academic for me though, too old, and too gay!

So per your previous post you protested the war (Viet Nam) and let others including myself do the heavy lifting for you,

And yes it is a contractual obligation to serve in the US if a draft is enacted, Leavenworth comes to mind, of course there's always the option of skipping to Canada,

By the time I was 18, the war was over. Yes, I proudly did protest both that war and the Iraq war. Right on both issues. Sorry you had to serve in a foreign policy mistake. You are blaming ME for that?

[Jingthing]

Try it first. If it doesn't work then you can come back and complain again. Otherwise you are just beating on the same bush again and again until you die away one day.

Unless you don’t want one,…..and that is ok too - if you don't think the benefit outweights the cost. However just don’t complain first if you haven’t tried or don’t want to.

Ms. Tea, your comments are inane because you are IGNORANT of Thai immigration laws. There is no way I personally can ever become a Thai citizen under current Thai immigrant laws. I am not even eligible to become a permanent resident. So, no I am not going to "try" that, I might as well try to fly to the moon on a tuk tuk! Talking to you is frustrating because you really do not understand, and aren't willing to learn to understand.

Your problem, as usual, is you can't get your brain around the radical difference between alien race foreigners moving to Thailand and foreigners moving to first world countries with a long tradition of immigration from people of many races. In Thailand, not only is it socially very different, the country's laws strongly discourage this as well.

Edited August 23, 2008 by Jingthing

[Naam]

JT I agree with everything you have said. I think also,what is wrong is when you are allowed to buy a condo, but not neccessarily allowed to stay in the country. If you cant get a visa, you cant live in your condo.

that applies to a "zillion" other countries too. try to buy property in Europe or the U.S. and then demand to stay. the authorities will laugh at you. and the same goes for OZ too.

[Jingthing]

OK, so yes, different people react to the same strange situation, but that does not change the objective reality of immigration of European descent people to Thailand. European descent people in general DO NOT ever become Thai people, On the other hand, people from all over the world become real Americans, real Australians, real Canadians, real Argentinians, real Britishers, etc. Its just a different situation no matter how you rationalize it.

JT I agree with everything you have said. I think also,what is wrong is when you are allowed to buy a condo, but not neccessarily allowed to stay in the country. If you cant get a visa, you cant live in your condo.

Faranglandoz

Thank you. Maybe you can explain it to Ms Tea who is taking the role of the Thai person giving us lectures, who doesn't even understand what she is talking about.

[gymshark]

Since when does buying a condo automatically give you citizenship anyway? I have property in the UK, therefore so does my wife, is she granted British citizenship? Of course not. I do beleive though that if the UK made a clause so that all asylum seekers and immigrant benefit seekers had to pick up a weapon and do military service in trashcanistan or iraq the numbers would reduce dramatically. If you become a citizen of a country and the flare goes up I suppose it is only right that you stand to defend it if it is required in the law. A decision you make if you sign.