Most Secure Method Of Buying Property In Thailand?

[Glynn123]

Dear All,

I am thinking of spending approx 12 Million Baht on buying property in Thailand but am concerned that some of the arrangements in Thai property law for farangs are not 100% watertight.

I am aware of the Shell company and 30 year plus 30 year arrangements, however my question is this?

I have a 9 month old Daughter with dual Thai and British Passports, can I set up the property in a trust in her name with a covenant stipulating that I stay in the property till my death?

Is this possible and would it be the safest most secure method for a Thai property purchase?

best regards

Glynn.

[lannarebirth]

Hello Glynn123

and welcome to ThaiVisa. Someone will be along shortly to disabuse you of any misconceptions you may hold with respect to land ownership in Thailand, and plant in your mind a few new ones .

[pkrv]

Hello Glynn123

and welcome to ThaiVisa. Someone will be along shortly to disabuse you of any misconceptions you may hold with respect to land ownership in Thailand, and plant in your mind a few new ones .

God you a mind reader 'lannarebirth' - the safest way to own property in Thailand is to buy a Condominium - You own the freehold title (which includes a share of all communal assets including the land) free and clear and in your name(s). Just make sure you buy into the 49% Farang quota.

As to house and land ownership - over to you guys....

[lannarebirth]

Hello Glynn123

and welcome to ThaiVisa. Someone will be along shortly to disabuse you of any misconceptions you may hold with respect to land ownership in Thailand, and plant in your mind a few new ones .

God you a mind reader 'lannarebirth' - the safest way to own property in Thailand is to buy a Condominium - You own the freehold title (which includes a share of all communal assets including the land) free and clear and in your name(s). Just make sure you buy into the 49% Farang quota.

As to house and land ownership - over to you guys....

Maybe, but I wouldn't live in a condo if you paid me to. The OP should take legal counsel from Isaan Lawyers or Sunbelt or similar.

[pkrv]

Hello Glynn123

and welcome to ThaiVisa. Someone will be along shortly to disabuse you of any misconceptions you may hold with respect to land ownership in Thailand, and plant in your mind a few new ones .

God your a mind reader 'lannarebirth' - the safest way to own property in Thailand is to buy a Condominium - You own the freehold title (which includes a share of all communal assets including the land) free and clear and in your name(s). Just make sure you buy into the 49% Farang quota.

As to house and land ownership - over to you guys....

Maybe, but I wouldn't live in a condo if you paid me to. The OP should take legal counsel from Isaan Lawyers or Sunbelt or similar.

Err make that Definitely! - but I take the point, life is horses for courses - some peoples dream is a beach house. As I don't have a Thai partner house/land ownership is not an option but for the OP's information there is a really good poster on this subject donx. I would read back through his posts. IMO they are well written and also in a way impartial. Again IMO a good starting point.

Edited August 22, 2008 by pkrv

[chiangmaibruce]

Given your post (and that you just signed up) I would strongly recommend that you spend a couple of hours reading back through the many relevant discussion threads in this forum (use search function top right of this page) plus review the samuiforsale.com web site.

- if by shell company, you mean nominee company, they they are illegal

- the validity of 30+30 year leases are extremely dubious (see very good thread on this topic)

- you can buy property in the name of your minor daughter (refer earlier threads on this topics)

- for covenant read 'usufruct', can do (see several relevant threads)

"safe" and "secure" are relative terms with regard to Thai property - basically all your options here have some real and/or potential weaknesses in this regard. probably the best contender would be a foreigner condo but i am assuming you are talking about house/land

there is no one most safe and secure option for all people and all properties .... too many variables including your personal circumstances, the specific nature of the property you are interested in and so on ... you will see what I mean after you read the above material

[donx]

First I'd like to thank pkrv for the compliment.

Glynn123, if you want a condo (which I don't think you want) then I agree with pkrv that buying a condo is the easiest and most secure method.

I will assume you are referring to land and house, so the most secure method would be to invest 40 million baht into Thai government securities and get the appropriate Thai Minister to approve your purchase of 1 rai of land. The ThaiVisa poster bendix claims that many foreigners have purchased through this route. I personally know nobody that has done this. Most people I know don't have 40 million baht to invest in this manner.

The next most secure method would be to put the property in your Thai daughter's name. The complications with this include the fact that if you decide to sell before she is of legal age (18 or 21, I'm not sure), then you would have to petition the courts. They will only do it if they believe it is in the best interest of the child (which I think is rarely the case). You could possibly get a usufruct attached to the property that would allow you to live in the property for the rest of your life. The problem I see with this is that I doubt a 9 month old could agree to such a condition. Ask a lawyer if a child can agree to a usufruct or a lease and if so, how old would they have to be. I could be completely wrong about this, but I just can't imagine a 9 month old being allowed to sign such an agreement.

You can't put the property in a trust in Thailand. Everything I have read about them here indicates that trusts are not available in Thailand. So forget about this as an option. You sound like you already know about other options such as a 30 year lease or usufruct with an adult Thai owner as well as the Thai company ownership route, so I won't go into details about this.

My initial reaction to your statement, "I ... am concerned that some of the arrangements in Thai property law for farangs are not 100% watertight" was that ALL of the arrangements in Thai property (land and house) law for farangs are not 100% watertight.

[Glynn123]

Thank you all for your valued input.

It is indeed a house that I wish to purchase not a Condominium.

So a userfruct may be the way to go?

Any recommendations for a good lawyer specializing in this field based in Pattaya or Bangkok?

best regards

Glynn

[Soutpeel]

Dear All,

I am thinking of spending approx 12 Million Baht on buying property in Thailand but am concerned that some of the arrangements in Thai property law for farangs are not 100% watertight.

I am aware of the Shell company and 30 year plus 30 year arrangements, however my question is this?

I have a 9 month old Daughter with dual Thai and British Passports, can I set up the property in a trust in her name with a covenant stipulating that I stay in the property till my death?

Is this possible and would it be the safest most secure method for a Thai property purchase?

best regards

Glynn.

Glynn,

Have friend of mine who put the house in his daughters name, the same as you have suggested, dont know the specifics, but seem to remember him getting set up through a lawyer, so guess that would be the best advice...go an see a lawyer.

[sunlife2000]

if you already have the property and then change it to your child is there any tax involved and if so can someone suggest how much this is please.

[gzu88bv]

My 2 cents only, again.

I always wonder and still do not understand why so many people just rush into buying a house in LOS and believe it to be a sound investment.

The golden rule for Falang in LOS is: Never invest more than you are ready to loose!

This is a standard phrase I admit and often heard here in Thailand and then again somebody has to show me first a property investment that works for Falangs and is indeed an investment and not just a money transfer from my present account.

If one invests that amount of money in a safer place at nominal risk he/she can run a fairly decent lifestyle here and still owns most of his/her capital.

[jitagon]

My 2 cents only, again.

I always wonder and still do not understand why so many people just rush into buying a house in LOS and believe it to be a sound investment.

The golden rule for Falang in LOS is: Never invest more than you are ready to loose!

This is a standard phrase I admit and often heard here in Thailand and then again somebody has to show me first a property investment that works for Falangs and is indeed an investment and not just a money transfer from my present account.

If one invests that amount of money in a safer place at nominal risk he/she can run a fairly decent lifestyle here and still owns most of his/her capital.

Here we go again. Where did the OP state that he wanted to build/buy a house as an investment? Some of us want to get on with our lives. Live it how we want to. And if that involves making a home, taking the best precautions we can, in the country of our choice, so be it. This ain't a rehearsal you know. The Never Invest blah blah's just old and doesn't apply to all of us.

[klikster]

You can't put the property in a trust in Thailand. Everything I have read about them here indicates that trusts are not available in Thailand. So forget about this as an option.

hello donx and glyn123,

Not trying to start an argument, just attempting to get something clarified.

I have been told by 2 "knowledgeable" professionals . one an Aussie investment banker, the other a US attorney, that a trust is available if it is funded at Bt 250 million. And that 100% ownership is possible and that the trust can buy and hold land. There was some question as to the administration (and cost of administration) of such a trust.

Another aspect of these alleged trusts is they are not "privileges" as in BOI promotional privileges (which, supposedly can be subsequently withdrawn), but constitutionally supported.

I have asked a number of bankers and they just stare and me, blink a couple of times then say they never heard of such a thing.

It would be interesting to know if this is fact or fiction.

Edited August 23, 2008 by klikster

[jitagon]

You can't put the property in a trust in Thailand. Everything I have read about them here indicates that trusts are not available in Thailand. So forget about this as an option.

hello donx and glyn123,

Not trying to start an argument, just attempting to get something clarified.

I have been told by 2 "knowledgeable" professionals . one an Aussie investment banker, the other a US attorney, that a trust is available if it is funded at Bt 250 million. And that 100% ownership is possible and that the trust can buy and hold land. There was some question as to the administration (and cost of administration) of such a trust.

Another aspect of these alleged trusts is they are not "privileges" as in BOI promotional privileges (which, supposedly can be subsequently withdrawn), but constitutionally supported.

I have asked a number of bankers and they just stare and me, blink a couple of times then say they never heard of such a thing.

It would be interesting to know if this is fact or fiction.

Oh well. There you are then. All you have to do is dip into your Rainy Day money back in your home country

[sunlife2000]

My 2 cents only, again.

I always wonder and still do not understand why so many people just rush into buying a house in LOS and believe it to be a sound investment.

The golden rule for Falang in LOS is: Never invest more than you are ready to loose

This is a standard phrase I admit and often heard here in Thailand and then again somebody has to show me first a property investment that works for Falangs and is indeed an investment and not just a money transfer from my present account.

If one invests that amount of money in a safer place at nominal risk he/she can run a fairly decent lifestyle here and still owns most of his/her capital.

i agree never invest more than you are ready to loose, i have a business back home that has paid for my last six years here but at the same time have made money on land in thailand. on the basis if all went tits up i still have my business back in the UK.

[gzu88bv]

i agree never invest more than you are ready to loose, i have a business back home that has paid for my last six years here but at the same time have made money on land in thailand. on the basis if all went tits up i still have my business back in the UK.

……. because Brits are very smart guys and have always been. They rent out their home back in England, come either to LOS or go to the warmth of Spain and enjoy a good lifestyle…..

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

At one time I would have strongly agreed with owning a house and not consider living in a condo. But after going through much of the nightmare of trying to legally buy the land and then finding a reliable builder who wouldn't rip you off, I said the hel_l with it and bought a condo.

After living in it for a year it would now be my preference over a house (in LOS anyhow). It can have lots of advantages over a house and I believe the upkeep is less than a house of equivilent size.

The best part is I have the chanote and own it legally. Don't have to worry about the garden or the pool or anything outside of my unit. But I will be the first to say it isn't for everybody. But don't discount it to quickly because some posters who have probably never lived in one don't like the idea. There are some very nice ones available and it isn't a bad lifestyle.

[Naam]

My 2 cents only, again.

I always wonder and still do not understand why so many people just rush into buying a house in LOS and believe it to be a sound investment.

The golden rule for Falang in LOS is: Never invest more than you are ready to loose!

This is a standard phrase I admit and often heard here in Thailand and then again somebody has to show me first a property investment that works for Falangs and is indeed an investment and not just a money transfer from my present account.

If one invests that amount of money in a safer place at nominal risk he/she can run a fairly decent lifestyle here and still owns most of his/her capital.

Here we go again. Where did the OP state that he wanted to build/buy a house as an investment? Some of us want to get on with our lives. Live it how we want to. And if that involves making a home, taking the best precautions we can, in the country of our choice, so be it. This ain't a rehearsal you know. The Never Invest blah blah's just old and doesn't apply to all of us.

right you are! living is a part of one's individual life style and in some cases THE paramount prority. i admire people who buy property as an investment and derive profits from it, but i pity people who consider the house/condo in which they live an investment

p.s. in my view the advice "never invest blah blah" is mostly given by those who lack funds to invest

[donx]

You can't put the property in a trust in Thailand. Everything I have read about them here indicates that trusts are not available in Thailand. So forget about this as an option.

hello donx and glyn123,

Not trying to start an argument, just attempting to get something clarified.

I have been told by 2 "knowledgeable" professionals . one an Aussie investment banker, the other a US attorney, that a trust is available if it is funded at Bt 250 million. And that 100% ownership is possible and that the trust can buy and hold land. There was some question as to the administration (and cost of administration) of such a trust.

Another aspect of these alleged trusts is they are not "privileges" as in BOI promotional privileges (which, supposedly can be subsequently withdrawn), but constitutionally supported.

I have asked a number of bankers and they just stare and me, blink a couple of times then say they never heard of such a thing.

It would be interesting to know if this is fact or fiction.

You certainly may be correct about trusts existing provided that they are funded at 250 million baht. But if I had 250 million baht, I wouldn't put in a trust for the purpose of allowing my Thai/farang child to hold title of a property. Instead I would attempt to obtain 1 rai of land via the 40 million baht Thai government investment route.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to know that trusts may be available for those with the means to set one up. I'm sure there are some extremely wealthy Thais that would take advantage of a trust.

[zorro1]

My 2 cents only, again.

I always wonder and still do not understand why so many people just rush into buying a house in LOS and believe it to be a sound investment.

The golden rule for Falang in LOS is: Never invest more than you are ready to loose!

This is a standard phrase I admit and often heard here in Thailand and then again somebody has to show me first a property investment that works for Falangs and is indeed an investment and not just a money transfer from my present account.

If one invests that amount of money in a safer place at nominal risk he/she can run a fairly decent lifestyle here and still owns most of his/her capital.

Here we go again. Where did the OP state that he wanted to build/buy a house as an investment? Some of us want to get on with our lives. Live it how we want to. And if that involves making a home, taking the best precautions we can, in the country of our choice, so be it. This ain't a rehearsal you know. The Never Invest blah blah's just old and doesn't apply to all of us.

Well put. The never invest more than you can....... blah blah should be banned unless the thread says I have a lot of money is it wise to invest in Thai R/E or something similar. As Naam suggests its lack of funds and I agree ,it usually comes from those renting 7000bht/mth studios in bKK whilst keeping their millions firmly locked in at 7.5%

Edited August 23, 2008 by zorro1

[chiangmaibruce]

if you already have the property and then change it to your child is there any tax involved and if so can someone suggest how much this is please.

again, by "property" do you mean house and land?

if so then the "you" would generally have to be a Thai spouse

I would assume this is treated as a transfer of ownership and hence transfer tax would be payable (obviously you would confirm this with a lawyer)

The amount of transfer tax would be based on the "sale" price provided to the Lands Dept, and whether this was less/the same/more than their own valuation for the land

I have recently seen in this forum someone provide the sliding scale for transfer tax, so hopefully you can find that post/thread with a word search

*******

To the OP, the first issue to sort out is not so much whether a usufruct would be useful in your situation, but (as donx mentioned) whether a minor child can legally enter into such an agreement. I would be interested to hear what you find out

[klikster]

You can't put the property in a trust in Thailand. Everything I have read about them here indicates that trusts are not available in Thailand. So forget about this as an option.

hello donx and glyn123,

Not trying to start an argument, just attempting to get something clarified.

I have been told by 2 "knowledgeable" professionals . one an Aussie investment banker, the other a US attorney, that a trust is available if it is funded at Bt 250 million. And that 100% ownership is possible and that the trust can buy and hold land. There was some question as to the administration (and cost of administration) of such a trust.

Another aspect of these alleged trusts is they are not "privileges" as in BOI promotional privileges (which, supposedly can be subsequently withdrawn), but constitutionally supported.

I have asked a number of bankers and they just stare and me, blink a couple of times then say they never heard of such a thing.

It would be interesting to know if this is fact or fiction.

Oh well. There you are then. All you have to do is dip into your Rainy Day money back in your home country

1 - I was responding to donx's comment about trusts

2 - A number of investors could form a trust .. I don't believe it has to be individually funded.

[klikster]

You can't put the property in a trust in Thailand. Everything I have read about them here indicates that trusts are not available in Thailand. So forget about this as an option.

hello donx and glyn123,

Not trying to start an argument, just attempting to get something clarified.

I have been told by 2 "knowledgeable" professionals . one an Aussie investment banker, the other a US attorney, that a trust is available if it is funded at Bt 250 million. And that 100% ownership is possible and that the trust can buy and hold land. There was some question as to the administration (and cost of administration) of such a trust.

Another aspect of these alleged trusts is they are not "privileges" as in BOI promotional privileges (which, supposedly can be subsequently withdrawn), but constitutionally supported.

I have asked a number of bankers and they just stare and me, blink a couple of times then say they never heard of such a thing.

It would be interesting to know if this is fact or fiction.

You certainly may be correct about trusts existing provided that they are funded at 250 million baht. But if I had 250 million baht, I wouldn't put in a trust for the purpose of allowing my Thai/farang child to hold title of a property. Instead I would attempt to obtain 1 rai of land via the 40 million baht Thai government investment route.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to know that trusts may be available for those with the means to set one up. I'm sure there are some extremely wealthy Thais that would take advantage of a trust.

But 25 investors (or more) could participate in one trust at Bt 10 million each, as I understand it. I realize that this type of trust is not in the "Thai Visa pundit's and expert's box model" (not referring to you, donx). But if the trust is a possibility, it is no less valid as an opportunity to own real property. And, as was described to me, the trust need not be set up by Thais.

A house and land may be more than an investment, but for those of us who are not in the "rich and famous" category, a house and land may well be our largest tangible personal investment.

[Naam]

You certainly may be correct about trusts existing provided that they are funded at 250 million baht. But if I had 250 million baht, I wouldn't put in a trust for the purpose of allowing my Thai/farang child to hold title of a property. Instead I would attempt to obtain 1 rai of land via the 40 million baht Thai government investment route.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to know that trusts may be available for those with the means to set one up. I'm sure there are some extremely wealthy Thais that would take advantage of a trust.

the 250mm trust is not only fiction but hogwash . even going the 40mm route via BOI is a real headache and not as easy to go as fellow member "Bendix" made it sound. i checked that out several years ago. besides that, why would wealthy Thais be interested in trusts which don't exist in Thailand (perhaps the expression "trust" was not the correct one to be used in the first place) respectively what advantage would they derive from trusts IF they existed? all wealthy Thais i know (i know more than two ) like to invest in their businesses, hold real estate in their, their spouses or their childrens names and everything else is (legally) invested tax free mostly in Singapore and Hong Kong.

[kaxper]

You certainly may be correct about trusts existing provided that they are funded at 250 million baht. But if I had 250 million baht, I wouldn't put in a trust for the purpose of allowing my Thai/farang child to hold title of a property. Instead I would attempt to obtain 1 rai of land via the 40 million baht Thai government investment route.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to know that trusts may be available for those with the means to set one up. I'm sure there are some extremely wealthy Thais that would take advantage of a trust.

the 250mm trust is not only fiction but hogwash . even going the 40mm route via BOI is a real headache and not as easy to go as fellow member "Bendix" made it sound. i checked that out several years ago. besides that, why would wealthy Thais be interested in trusts which don't exist in Thailand (perhaps the expression "trust" was not the correct one to be used in the first place) respectively what advantage would they derive from trusts IF they existed? all wealthy Thais i know (i know more than two ) like to invest in their businesses, hold real estate in their, their spouses or their childrens names and everything else is (legally) invested tax free mostly in Singapore and Hong Kong.

agree on this one .. trust law does not exist in thailand so i don't know what the BT250M gets you. there is a derivation of this 'trust' under special purpose vehicles (SPV) law that was set up for financial transactions, but "trusts" (or the law supporting it) in the western sense for personal assets or estate planning does not exist in thailand. plain and simple fact is that foreigners cannot own land in thailand, period. any attempts to do so borders on illegal. just put the land in your daughter's name, then borrow against it and build your house.

[klikster]

You certainly may be correct about trusts existing provided that they are funded at 250 million baht. But if I had 250 million baht, I wouldn't put in a trust for the purpose of allowing my Thai/farang child to hold title of a property. Instead I would attempt to obtain 1 rai of land via the 40 million baht Thai government investment route.

Nevertheless, it is interesting to know that trusts may be available for those with the means to set one up. I'm sure there are some extremely wealthy Thais that would take advantage of a trust.

the 250mm trust is not only fiction but hogwash . even going the 40mm route via BOI is a real headache and not as easy to go as fellow member "Bendix" made it sound. i checked that out several years ago. besides that, why would wealthy Thais be interested in trusts which don't exist in Thailand (perhaps the expression "trust" was not the correct one to be used in the first place) respectively what advantage would they derive from trusts IF they existed? all wealthy Thais i know (i know more than two ) like to invest in their businesses, hold real estate in their, their spouses or their childrens names and everything else is (legally) invested tax free mostly in Singapore and Hong Kong.

agree on this one .. trust law does not exist in thailand so i don't know what the BT250M gets you. there is a derivation of this 'trust' under special purpose vehicles (SPV) law that was set up for financial transactions, but "trusts" (or the law supporting it) in the western sense for personal assets or estate planning does not exist in thailand. plain and simple fact is that foreigners cannot own land in thailand, period. any attempts to do so borders on illegal. just put the land in your daughter's name, then borrow against it and build your house.

REIT's are not necessarily for personal estate planning, but investment vehicles. If Thailand has some version of an REIT, and if it is as described to me, it would be legal, as it is Thai.

@Naam - re: "i checked that out several years ago." Both the 40 mil and the 'trust"?

@kaxper - Pardon me for not accepting offhand your assertion that " ..trust law does not exist in thailand .." when you don't cite your credentials.

[pkrv]

At one time I would have strongly agreed with owning a house and not consider living in a condo. But after going through much of the nightmare of trying to legally buy the land and then finding a reliable builder who wouldn't rip you off, I said the hel_l with it and bought a condo.

After living in it for a year it would now be my preference over a house (in LOS anyhow). It can have lots of advantages over a house and I believe the upkeep is less than a house of equivilent size.

The best part is I have the chanote and own it legally. Don't have to worry about the garden or the pool or anything outside of my unit. But I will be the first to say it isn't for everybody. But don't discount it to quickly because some posters who have probably never lived in one don't like the idea. There are some very nice ones available and it isn't a bad lifestyle.

Indeed I agree - And you cannot possibly do this on your own especially in the heart of Bangkok.

http://www.theparkresidence.co.th/exterior.htm

What is available elsewhere who knows? I know of Naam's garden he posts openly - Kudos to him - a conundrum - I believe you make your choice and if you whinge it is your choice that you are winging about.

BTW I love our new Bangkok (condominium) pad - I will take some words out of - Thunderbirds - F.A.B.

Edited August 26, 2008 by pkrv

[Mally]

Hi Guys,

This is my first post on here, and I appologise in advance at asking something thats probably been asked / discussed before, but here goes :-

I wanted to buy a house (house not condo) in Issan, but have no Thai GF to use as a means to buying, so reading this thread I'm quickly arriving at the fact that this is not going to happen.Unless I'm reading this wrong and there is another way to own a house.

I wanted the house to live in and use as I do my home here in UK, and have no intention of using it as an investment venture. Probably live in LOS 3 months, then UK 3 months and so on, until I retire in LOS full time.

Now on reading this thread I'm considering renting a property long term,(probably a 3/4 bed with garden) but if I do I'll put time and money into making the place my home. My question now is "can I get a long term lease off a private landlord that would hold up legally in Thailand ?" I've met a couple of expats (1 Ausie & 1 Yank) who have both told me tales of woe about making a place nice and then told to move on by the owner.

I would hate to spend money and a lot of labour improving the place and garden (yes I'm another Englishman that loves his garden !) just to be told after 6 months that the owner has decided to sell the house (or double the rent as the place is so much nicer) & I have to go elsewhere.

By the way, keep your replies in laymans terms - I'm a bloody sparkie not a lawyer, but reliable upto date info on this will much be appriciated.

Thanks,

Mally

[johnnyk]

You CAN own a house on your own, the land is another thing.

With no GF in Isaan, what are you going to do there?

Who will you meet? Expats are generally scattered about the countryside.

I'm thinking no GF means not many Thai contacts.

If you make some Thai contacts (GF is the easiest way, though not problem-free) you might be able to arrange a usufruct on a piece of land then erect a house or a usufruct on an existng house and land together.

But why Isaan if no GF? Just curious, not trying to make a point.

[pkrv]

You CAN own a house on your own, the land is another thing.

With no GF in Isaan, what are you going to do there?

Who will you meet? Expats are generally scattered about the countryside.

I'm thinking no GF means not many Thai contacts.

If you make some Thai contacts (GF is the easiest way, though not problem-free) you might be able to arrange a usufruct on a piece of land then erect a house or a usufruct on an existng house and land together.

But why Isaan if no GF? Just curious, not trying to make a point.

IMO a good thought process - There has been considerable, how shall I say this 'past fallout' on this subject - again IMO enough for people to take heed. There has been a subsequent ramifications on TV, unfortunately to the point where people have (Unfortunately) to some extent become bored with dealing with the subject.