Hydroponic Nutrients

[joeycano]

Kloghead,

I've emailed Ken asking him if I can order 30 blocks of his product but with a reduced EC. I have found that you need to order things in bulk here in Thailand as supplies are not consistent throughout the country. Grab it while you can ! ! !

Can I ask how many blocks you need as if we combine our request Ken might be more willing to provide us with lowered coco with reduced EC. I don't need this much coco but can order more if he is willing to supply coco with the RIGHT EC level.

Also, can you advise of your other connection that has coco with .3 so I can put them on my list of venders.

Thanks so much for your above info.

Take care,

[kloghead]

joey check your messages

[joeycano]

I just checked with Ken at SuperPeat and he advised that he only sells coco with an EC between 1-2. However, I tested it last night and it returned an EC of 3. It looks like I will be washing the coco as I have not found coco with an EC below .5.

If anyone knows where I can get coco with low EC I would sure like to know

[kloghead]

Yeah, EC 3 is way too much. Not worth gambling with when your crop/hobby = time and money...

So...looks like back to the washtub

[joeycano]

All,

It appears that there is a vendor in Thailand that sells a wide assortment of coco coir products for hydroponics gardeners with an EC lower that .5

According to my information they are located in Ratchaburi. They are also currently opening up a new factory in Prachup Khiri Khan, but it won't open up for 6 months. It was also mentioned that one can pick up products in Bangkok once a week.

To view their products go to:http://www.cocoworldgroup.com/product_range.php. The contact's name is Paul. He provided me the following details about their products:

Can I just mention that the 5mm coco chips only come in one form, which include some fibre and some cocopeat. Larger chip sizes (10mm / 20mm / 40mm) have little or no fibre or cocopeat. 5mm cocochip is used for soil conditioning, mulching and growing plants in baskets and planters where water retention is important.

Paul will be forwarding me prices in a day or two. I can post the prices if anyone is interested.

Take care,

Edited September 26, 2008 by joeycano

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, nice to see your finding things, I stoped looking and made due with what was around town.

I went back and checked my @ from Wesco. "Wesco make special pack for hobby hydroponics growers comprise completed dry A and B fertilizers which can make final liquid solution about 10,000 lts at 2500 baht per packing (or stock A 100 lts Stock B 100 lts at 1:100 concentration). Normally, we sell all fertilizer in 25 kg original bag from oversea supplies".

You can get this, but you have to order it from him.

I hope this storm is the big one going through tonight, I'm running out of space to put my plug trays, I'm starting to get ready to transplant my NuMex chili's. Will still be using bags and pieces with a smaller bag inside with the plant, has been working, so why kick a dead horse.

This was today: 1. the pieces and the bags, some chilies that have been doing OK through the wet season.

2. some of the "A" chilies for BKK. 3. sort of an update on one of my past posts, the aren't finished yet, but as they sit, this is Bt.100. Bags are Bt.45@Kg, and the bag of pieces was Bt.80. Still have 23 bags from the Kg, and 1 more bag of pieces.

(Bt.90 now, price up)

rice555

[joeycano]

Hello Rice555. Again thanks for all your excellent advice especially on how to get started with hydroponic gardening in Thailand. I tried to be detailed on this thread so other novices can learn by reading this thread. I'm sure they will be delighted by learning from a master gardener like yourself.

I have found that Thailand has almost everything for hydroponic gardening but unfortunately not under one roof. I imaging that if someone gathered everything for hydroponic gardening under one roof they would make a buck or two. At this point I think a got everything gathered.

I liked and learned from the last photos you posted. I will use your same method except use terracotta pots as the wife thinks they are more pleasing to the eye. It looks like you have the grow bags filled with coco chips laying out where they can be rinsed by all the rain we have been getting lately. (And they say it rains a lot in Seattle. I imagine it's a good way to rinse out any remaining salt. Also, your chilies look very nice. I wish I was that far along.

As for me, I am ready to start seeds in plug trays. Prior to starting, I wanted to get your opinion on how to make seed propagation media and seed planting tips. Current, I have the following medias: (1) Coco Peat, (2) Charred Rice hulls, (3) River Sand and (4) ACK Mixed Media (Perlite & Vermiculite). I have the following questions:

MAKING PROPAGATION MEDIA:

- Which medias do I use?

- What proportions of each do I use?

- Are there any special methods I should following when making the media?

- Anything I should or should not do when making the media?

SEED PLANTING TIPS:

- Any tips you recommend on planting seeds?

- Do I use watered down nutrients?

- What is the average time it takes from starting seeds to transplanting to pots?

As always, I thank you for your much needed expert advice. Please advise if there is every anything to can do to assist you.

Thanks,

Joey

Edited October 2, 2008 by joeycano

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, been busy, more bags filled and washing out in the rain, I was able to stack trays till they started sprouting. Was going to do 80 bags, now it looks more like 4-500 and less in the dirt, I did manage to get 3rai plowed between storms. So all the work(and no time) needed, doing the first planting hydro.

Starting seed, some times I presoak with a salt peter solution, some times not, much faster to seed the trays when the seed is dry. I use a 50/50 mix of coir and Klasmann 'tray substrate'(their add is in House Ag, new issue has some hydro and if any of the rubber tree growers read this,(?) over 30+ pages with picture about rubber) as you said, no one store, but I sometimes will use small pieces of perlite. Been using the rice hulls(both type) only when transplanting.

When I first water the tray after seeding, I use a Balone(Captan) solution for the first watering. After the 2nd leaf forms, I start using(got to look up the correct amount) a 50gal water to 1Lb of 10-52-17 for the first 2 waterings, both for hydro and dirt. Got the info from U of F, on seed propagation, but will get back on the amounts. When I pushed for time and space, I stack trays, use a piece of plastic cardboard between trays. If you got the time and space, lay them out with some sun, but keep them moist, NOT WET, but don't let them dry out, water as deeded. Try different potting mixes and see what works best for you. I use to use only the tray substrate, but the pri$e has been going up fast. Compost is a waste of time to start seed in, they do not take up any nutrients till the 1st-2nd true leafs form, it doesn't hold water well like coir and peat mixes, all the goodies are in the seed it self. Ever grows seed in a paper towel? If you can find this type of bag in you searches, PM me. White 5"X5"X12", I ran out of good ones, I've got 13 Kg of bad ones,(brittle) yes a good store! An a few url's to have fun with.

My chili nutrients reading, meter for the blind.(me)

http://ag.arizona.edu/ceac/CEACresearch/Intro.htm

http://www.csrees.usda.gov/newsroom/lgunew...production.html

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/ghwebRL.html

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, always double check when I say something, I had the wright numbers, but the other farming method:

Planting the Crop

Vegetable crops can be established in plastic mulch by transplanting or direct seeding. Transplanting can be accomplished by hand or with a mechanical transplanter. For very early crops of green pepper and tomato, large container cells with a diameter of 5-7.6 cm should be used. For other vegetable crops, a cell size between 2.5 and 5 cm is generally suitable. When plants are being set in by hand, several tools can be used to make holes in mulches. A long-handled bulb setter, or a can or steel cylinder welded onto the end of a handle, can be used. The hole should be 7.6-10 cm wide, and deep enough to hold the plants. A hand tobacco setter works well once holes have been made in the plastic mulch. With both hand setting and machine setting, the use of a "starter solution" — a soluble fertilizer high in phosphorous (P) — will often get the plants off to a good start. A suitable proportion would be 10-52-17 or 10-20-10.

Starter Solution When transplanting to the field, water plants soon after transplanting, using a starter solution. This is a fertilizer solution that is high in phosphorus. Apply about 1 cup of starter solution to each plant immediately after setting it into the ground.A starter solution can be made by mixing 1 tablespoon per gallon of a 10-52-17 fertilizer. For larger quantities, use 3 pounds of 10-52-17 in 50 gallons of water.

Using a starter solution will help to overcome transplant shock and get young plants off to a good start. Since root systems are not yet very developed, putting a soluble fertilizer within easy reach of the root ball helps to make nutrients easily available to the plant.

I need to keep track of what I'm doing! Since the wife wants you to use pots, try to use the brown plastic vs the terracotta so you can put drain holes on the side and the clay pots hold the heat. Wait till she see's the brown stain of the coir/nutrients makes if its on cement.

I use a diluted (1/4 strength) for watering my starts after the 1st true leaf once a day, but do also with plain water to keep them from drying out, at this stage and the way the weather was, I didn't need a lot of plant growth as I was going to plant 95% in dirt. So what was going for a new well, is now going for a scale to weigh the nutes, 2 100Lt tanks, about 10 bags of pieces, 6 Kg's of bags and 400 more drippers. The picture are the 'A' team and the 'B' team.

rice555

[Smithson]

Rice,

Are the tomatoes your growing? I'm thinking of setting up a flood and drain system using the coco coir husks. Nothing flash, just the chipped husks you can buy in huge sacks for B100. I was doing this with my aquaponics, the PH was a little low, so I added some shells and that's done the trick.

Coco coir is a natural product, what are the issues using this with hydroponics? I thought everything had to be inert.

[rice555]

Hello Smithson, no tomatoes for me for a while, I will be going on a strict chili relleno diet with a sprig of expazote on the side.

I really have no hands on with E & F systems, actually with no type of recirculation system. I think that for anything other than greens/lettuce, it's to much work/problems here in the tropics/subtropics for the return, it can be a great hobby, time killer. But I do read about BVI, look at the pictures and dream.

Coconut/coir has been used in hydro for a while and has gotten more popular because of the cost vs rockwool and being 'green'.

I do like to use the pieces as the main bag filler, with the plant in a smaller bag, see a lot of that in Thai hydro.

Before this last oil price BS, 1 big bag was B.80, now B.90 here. Just bought the last 5 bags of pieces at my local supply, had the lady across the road use that up this evening filling 7"x14" and 8"x14" bags, now they are getting a free rain rinse. Plan on using coir only in some 6"x10" bags with the same peppers as the other bags above.

It's a good cheap growing media, good luck with you project, hope you have bumper crop. Post Pictures and give progress reports!

rice555 Don't use KU's nutes.

[Smithson]

Thanks for the tip on the nutes.

For the coir, I sift it first to remove the smaller particles, this cleans things up a bit.

My plan was to use the plastic baths sold in the hardware stores (used for concrete mixing) and a plastic bin. The flood and drain is easy to set up. A slow drain is put on the bath making it drain slower than it fills.

An overflow is also fitted so when the water reaches a certain depth the overflow kicks in sending water back to the tank.

A timer is set to the pump so after 15mins it cuts off, and the water drains back.

This is the simplest system I can think of, it requires very little plumbing and the growbed can be either filled with the media or have the plants in pots/plastic bags.

I've done hydroponics before and the problem was I tried for the best system rather than the simplest, which resulted in a lot of headaches.

The roma tomatoes have sprouted, I'll have some in hydro, some in aquaponics and some in soil. When things get going I'll post some pics.

[Smithson]

After reading all the thread, I thought I'd add some things. I've seen the blue plastic barrels for sale 2nd hand at Chatuchuck. A 120 liter was B550 and an 200 liter was B800. The 120 liter has an air tight lid, while the larger doesn't. I've also seen them on hwy 305 for quite a bit less.

I've also seen 47 gallon rubbish bins for B550 and lotus has 30 gallon ones for a similar price. A decent aquarium pump can be had for B350 and Carefor has timers for B250.

There is a good size hydro place with it's on restaurant in Nakhon Nayok. They do floating rafts of lettuce and Pak Boong. Very simple low cost set up, I was quite impressed.

I will be going out to ACK in the next day or so, they're very close to me. If anyone wants anything, just PM.

[paulandmaneerat]

I am happy to see that hydroponics is alive and well in Thailand among the farang fraternity. I am the 'Paul' referred to earlier in this string by Joey Cano. We have a processing plant for cocopeat and cocochip in Ratchaburi. Most of our production is exported to South America, Japan, China, Japan and Taiwan. We are constantly developing new products and will shortly be adding NPK and micro elements to our product for growers who require nutrient rich cocopeat rather than latent cocopeat. Next year our new processing plant will be opened near Prachuap Khiri Khan. From then, Rathaburi will be our cocochip processing plant and PKK our cocopeat processing plant.

This may seem like a sales ad, but it really isn't. Supplying you guys with small volume is more trouble than it's worth - but on the flip-side, it's a pleasure to be helping you find the right material.

At the moment I live in Bangkok. If you cannot get to Ratchaburi to collect on a cash & carry basis (prior notice please), I visit the factory in Ratchaburi once a week and will happily bring back to my apartment at Potisarn (Putthamonthon Sai 1), any material you need, for you to collect. Other than that, you would need to collect from Ratchaburi. PKK will be open in 6 months.

We offer cocopeat in two grades, standard fibre (about 20%) and low fibre (about 5-10%). EC is uniformly below 0.5 mS/cm and pH 5.8-6.5. Our coir is stored for 6-12 months before processing, then it is washed with fresh water to RHP standards. Our low fibre grade is favoured by young plant growers. Cocochip can only be washed in big volume, so you would get it at about 1.9 mS/cm or less if you order less than a container.

Our product range is:

Cocopeat - Low fibre / standard fibre - 2:1 compressed for hand break out - 20 kg bale, about 250/270 litres. (More can be achieved if

more time and care is devoted to re-hydration). Bale size 50 x 60 x 20cm (nom).

Cocopeat - low fibre / standard fibre - 5:1 briquettes. 4kg. Break-out 12-15 litres per kg.

Cocopeat - low fibre / standard fibre - 5:1 briquettes. 1kg. Break-out 12-15 litres per kg.

Cocochip - 5mm with fibre and cocopeat dust - unwashed - 13 kg bale.

Cocochip - 5-10mm without fibre or cocopeat dust - unwashed - 13 kg bale.

Cocochip - 10-20mm without fibre or cocopeat dust - unwashed - 13 kg bale.

Cocochunk - 40-45mm witout fibre or cocopeat dust - unwashed - 13 kg bale.

Coco disc - low fibre - 38mm - fills 5.5cm pot or cell. Supplied in packs of 84 discs.

Coco disc - low fibre - 60mm - fills 10.5cm pot (NEW FOR INTRODUCTION 2009).

Our customers are currently advising us on the NPK blend they need. If your requirement is the same, we can supply you on the back of their orders. Currently we are in the testing phase.

We never publish prices. We do however quote genuine inquiries by email. We may ask for a website other evidence of legitimate intentions. We frequently receive requests for prices from our competitors in India and Sri Lanka, as we are stepping on quite a few toes these days! We ask for website or headed paper as proof of intentions, and rarely hear any more from those people.

If I can help you, email me on: [email protected] and I will do my best to respond. I travel around Asia a lot, so try to give me as much lead time as possible.

Enjoy your hydroponics!

Paul

[Smithson]

Thanks for the input Paul, I'd be interested in hearing more about the nutrient rich coco peat and it's uses. Are the nutrients organic?

[paulandmaneerat]

Our nutrient issue is dictated to us by our customers and they have it dictated to them by the growers. Growers are a fastidious bunch who stick to what they know, after all it's their livelihoods, and they stick to what they know suits them. They are happy with our cocopeat, now they are ready for a cocopeat with nutrient.

As I stressed in my earlier post, we are just at the testing stage, so at this moment in time, our cocopeat contains no nutrient, except for the natural rooting hormones suggested by anecdotal evidence, but which, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has researched and identified.

However, I would like to use worm castings as a nutrient. I consider it to be the most natural and probably the most effective nutrient available. But whether we can get sufficient for our needs is another matter. We have singularly failed to get a response from the one major company in Thailand that might be able either to supply us, or to help us set up our own worm farm. I have emailed them many times, even telephoned their office in Australia and been promised a response by return, but nothing! I find it very frustrating when commercial companies with big websites and loads of contact numbers, ignore you when you show interest. Let them reply and say 'no' - at least you know where you stand!

We are in discussion with various sources of supply, but it's not something we can start doing overnight. Many of our competitors have tried to jump on the bandwagon, only to produce an inferior product that fails at the first hurdle. Thorough blending is the key. Too much or too little nutrient in a seed tray cell, will produce inferior results. Our factory in Brazil is very successful with blending nutrients into cocopeat. Our Technical Manager will be here in November to oversee the planning of the procedure. I can get him to put a post on here, but it will be in Portuguese! But even when we are ready, there will be months of trials before growers will trust us with their precious seed. Quite rightly too!

I'll keep you posted.

Paul

[Smithson]

I got my tomato nutrients from ACK, there were A and B containers and inside each container was a small bag containing other nutrients. The problem is each of the bags has "Nutrient mixture A" written on them in Thai. So it appears there's been a mix up. What I'm wondering now is whether the only mix up is the with the bags or maybe the whole container of nutrient B has been wrongly marked and is really nutrient A? Is there anyway to tell the difference between the nutrients by looking at them?

I've already dissolved the main nutrients for both, but still have one of the smaller bags marked A. I will go back to ACK today. Any suggestions?

Edited October 17, 2008 by Smithson

[rice555]

Hello Smithson, the A is brown, and the B is blue.

rice555

[Smithson]

Hello Smithson, the A is brown, and the B is blue.

rice555

Thanks Rice, I've been given to containers containing A nutrients then. I'll go back to ACK and see if they can sell me two bottles of B then. Wish me luck!

[Smithson]

Hello Smithson, the A is brown, and the B is blue.

rice555

For the main nutrients, are both A and B white?

[rice555]

Hello Smithson, it's the micro-nutrients that give it the colors, otherwise the nutrients solutions(A- would look like water-clear.

Yes they look white like sugar till they are dissolved in water.

Lunch is over, back to transplanting Mexican peppers.

rice555

[Smithson]

Thanks again Rice. Soo it appears I have no way of telling if I was only given the wrong micro-nutrients or whether the whole B container was actually A nutrients.

Edited October 17, 2008 by Smithson

[rice555]

Hello Smithson, if you look at the bags inside the white containers, you 'should' be able to see a trace of darkish brown in the A, also the calcium chloride looks more like off-white flower, unlike the B which looks like clear/white sugar and the bigger grains of the epsom salt.

They don't mix the ingredients in the bags, they just pour the weighed ingredients into the two bags, you should see a 1/4-1/2tps smooch of color in one of the 2 bag in A and B.

2 browns= 2-A's.

2 blues = 2-B's

rice555

[joeycano]

Here are some nutrient photos I took a while back. One all white pack and another white with Blue

[Smithson]

Thanks for the pics and help. I'm clear on the difference in the color between the micro nutrients and have definitely been given two bags of A micro. It's the main nutrients (not those in bags) that I'm concerned about?

What I'm wondering is if the B container was mislabeled and is actually A nutrients? Is there any way to tell? They looked exactly the same.

The question is:

- Did they just put the A micros on the B container?

OR

- Did they make a mistake when labeling the containers? Which would mean all the nutrients in container B are A nutrients.

Any suggestions? I'm wondering if I should just get another container of B, although I'm not sure they would sell me one separately.

BTW, yesterday I found a place working with whole coconuts. They sell the husks for 10B a sack.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Smithson

[Smithson]

Sorry, double post.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Smithson

[rice555]

Hello Smithson, 2 things, 1. When something is new to you, ask when you buy, look at the product.(s) This helps so you don't have any(less) problems when you get the things home.

2. When you questioned what you had, was the right chem's, you should have gone back to ACK to ask, they would corrected the problem if there was one. I have had no problems with ACK over the last 7 years. Also when mixing things, do one 'part' at a time, it saves on mix ups.

rice555

[Smithson]

Hello Smithson, 2 things, 1. When something is new to you, ask when you buy, look at the product.(s) This helps so you don't have any(less) problems when you get the things home.

2. When you questioned what you had, was the right chem's, you should have gone back to ACK to ask, they would corrected the problem if there was one. I have had no problems with ACK over the last 7 years. Also when mixing things, do one 'part' at a time, it saves on mix ups.

rice555

I understand, the first time I looked at the product, there were no instructions, I asked about the mixing and was told I would only get 10 liters of solution. No matter how many times I asked, she insisted it would only be 10 liters. It was only after reading the helpful info posted by you that I understood the 10 liters would then need to be mixed 1:100.

The second time I went back, I was left waiting 15 mins while they tried to find the sales staff. By the time they arrived I was in a hurry, I didn't check the contents, expecting that they would have got the A and B right.

I mixed part A separately, then when I opened B I found the bag inside was marked exactly the same as the bag from B.

I will go back to ACK, I was only posting here because I've found the staff there not so great with info. When returning things in Thailand I like to find out as much info as possible before going back as it makes things easier.

Over the past 7 years you've been dealing with ACK, have the staff been knowledgeable? I think it was a different person to the one I've been dealing with.

So it appears there's no way of knowing whether the main powder in the B container is B mix or A mix.

[rice555]

Hello Smithson, try this post, it shows the color of the 'whites'.

They had a large turnover of staff. My only complaint with ACK now is too much broken(perlite dust) pearlite in the bags.

rice555

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Hydroponic-F...ng-t152056.html

This was my first thoughts;

Hello Smithson, TIT, never go there around lunch time. You should have came with joeycano and myself.

Khun Moo was not there, I didn't ask why not, I have 4 or 5 business cards of people no longer there, was the woman wearing glasses and talked a lot, she's new?

It also helps if possible to send a picture of plant/bug/tractor/chemical when asking a 'ID" type question.

I had to go look which one was what color. ACK is a working farm, the sales staff is are just that, 'sales', they don't really have hands on knowledge, just the Thai memory system. The tech/farm manager guy reads Eng. but speak very little Eng., he's the one doing all the outside hydro displays and greenhouse systems.

If you have a problem and need an answer, show this picture to the sales person and say you would like to talk to her. I saw her when we were there no the 8th. She is #2/3? of ACK. Will look for her card for name and contact info.

rice555

[Smithson]

Thanks rice, I went back there and they said it was just a mix up with the micro nutrients, but then came back and told me the container was actually labeled wrong. So they gave me a whole new container of B and apologized profusely. It appears a whole batch has been mislabeled. They are very nice ppl, but are really office staff who help out with sales.

I'm picking up some coco peat for 10B per bag and will post pics. Besides hydro, this stuff is cheap enough to use a mulch. It's not chopped husks, but the loose stuff without the hard outer crust. If anyone want coco cheap, find a place that produces coconut milk and buy from them. This is where the nurseries go, they were filling a truck for a nursery when I got there. Apparently it's copped by hand to make the chunks.