Ignored By Thais At Work

[Samuian]

It's difficult being the new kid on the block, isn’t it?

If you are the new kid on the block, then you got to make the first move and repeatedly, unless you’re Bie or Rain, no thais will throw themselves at you first!!!

I BS that, sorry, very Thai , you made it a point yourself... in the following you sign that!

However the fact of life is… (?????) .it’s not going to be that easy breaking into a group of people who already know and are comfortable with each other, thai or not and anywhere in the world over…

Remember you’re in Thailand, and the first official language of most conversations is thai. So don’t expect the thais will bend over to you in English first.

Strong tobacco you're offering here, son!

India's language is Hindi for example, but a great many people do speak English, and will NOT hesitate to use it talking, associating, socializing with ANY foreigner, invite them on first hand to their home, to meet their families, even if form a much lower or higher social class!!

Mayanmar, next door neighbor... many people will just start to chat in English, curious where you from...

In Australia, people on first knowledge, invited me to their bbq Party, hearing my accent, curious where I am from, that was it, I was one of "them", of the crowd from day one - not such thing like "breaking in to a group of people", open arms, friendly smiles, "Hello's" - normal behavior, not sniffing out first, what rank, what social standing, how much income, what brand of car, design....

Sweden, Denmark, England, Holland, Italy, France, Spain, Morocco been around a lot... here this is something that does stand out!

The same things should be expected to happen back in your country for any immigrants also.

Remember my time back home, it was widely considered rude not to talk, not to welcome a newcomer, a stranger, wherever he/she came form!

Full stop!

[fuzedcon]

Here I have found that my modest skills are met with blank stares or even veiled disgust when I cannot speak something PERFECTLY. I get the feeling that most Thais would prefer I not even make the attempt. I'd be interested to know if others have experienced this.

Complete opposite.

I have always been encouraged to speak Thai wherever i worked or lived, and even when my Thai was crap, and i knew it, people made compliments on my abilities.

Nowadays wherever i go, and people hear that i speak Thai - they show signs of happy relief, and i am straight away engaged in a conversation, discussing everything, and now more often than not politics and related subjects.

Of course once a while i meet the racist <deleted> who doesn't like foreigners to speak Thai, or foreigners at all, or the tossers who get off on putting me down because my Thai is not perfect. But they are a miniscule minority, and mostly to be found in tourist areas, or in ultranationalist circles.

<deleted> 'em, i can beat them in factual face to face discussion in their own language, and if they are pissed of - i am also bigger than most of them, and i got more than enough Thai friends who would help me, in case i would need them.

[myauq]

thanks to everyone whose posted. very interesting reading.

i've decided that not worrying about them isn't too bad. i am leaving this place soon anyway, and i will find ways of avoiding having to go and eat with them in the future.

i have a suspicion that they know their behaviour is stupid, and that they're also aware none of them are willing to break away and make us feel more included.

as for all the people who have posted about being a new person, and thais having close-knitted friendships, i'd like to remind everyone that two of the people i am talking about are newer than me. the last farang here had been here for two years, longer than most of them.

i'm interested in opening another thread, something that's come out of this one - the difference between overseas and thai educated thais in thailand.

[jitagon]

A very interesting thread. I agree that it's important to learn the local language if one wants to live or especially work here. But after 8 years here, I have all but given up making the effort. Why? It has been a very discouraging experience. When I lived in California I traveled quite a bit through Latin America and enjoyed practicing my limited Spanish skills because the natives always seemed happy that I was attempting to speak their language. Even when I badly mispronounced a word or totally screwed up the grammar I was always corrected in an enthusiastic way and encouraged to continue. Here I have found that my modest skills are met with blank stares or even veiled disgust when I cannot speak something PERFECTLY. I get the feeling that most Thais would prefer I not even make the attempt. I'd be interested to know if others have experienced this.

No The Thais are not 'disgusted' and no, the Thais are not giving you 'blank stares'. The fact is that, (don't know if you've noticed this), but Thai is tonal, Spanish, as is most Eurocentric languages, is most decidedly not. If you cannot pronounce a word in Thai with the correct tones, (and I'm sure most of you will have noticed this by the way), The Thais, not being particularly imaginative with language, will not understand. Kaojai mai? And the blank stares are just further evidence of their not understanding, but not feeling the need, culturally speaking, to enthusiastically correct you. And you've been here eight years? Time to go home. Along with the OP who still doesn't seem to have taken on board that the majority of people prefer to speak in their own language when on their 'leisure times', Thai, Japaneses, Dutch whatsover

[myauq]

No The Thais are not 'disgusted' and no, the Thais are not giving you 'blank stares'. The fact is that, (don't know if you've noticed this), but Thai is tonal, Spanish, as is most Eurocentric languages, is most decidedly not. If you cannot pronounce a word in Thai with the correct tones, (and I'm sure most of you will have noticed this by the way), The Thais, not being particularly imaginative with language, will not understand. Kaojai mai? And the blank stares are just further evidence of their not understanding, but not feeling the need, culturally speaking, to enthusiastically correct you. And you've been here eight years? Time to go home. Along with the OP who still doesn't seem to have taken on board that the majority of people prefer to speak in their own language when on their 'leisure times', Thai, Japaneses, Dutch whatsover

I am a native English speaker, but like I said I speak a number of other South East Asian languages fluently. I spend most of my leisure time with speakers of another SEA language, which is not Thai, neither is it my native tongue. My girlfriend is not Thai, and we don't speak in her or my native language.

We don't have any problems speaking to each other in our non-native tongues.

[Samuian]

I can understand all these if's and but's concerning the ability to communicate in the local language, but ONLY in terms as if the foreigner would be, say deeply involved in some rural development program, than language skills would be a priority!

Being a coworker in a multinational company, with foreign educated staff, in an "global-metropolitan-urban" environment in the 21st Century, with Internet, iPods, Blueberries, SatTV, name it, the lot, this issue of being a foreigner in a foreign country - to MUST be able at first hand to understand the local culture and the mastery of the language and "mold in" is ultimate nationalistic nihilism, if not simple racist attitude of: "if you can't, we won't".... BS!

Edited August 25, 2008 by Samuian

[teacup]

You expect them to speak English to you.

They don’t want to speak English to you, cuz this’s Thailand

You don’t want to learn enough thai to be able to converse in their already on going “thaily” discussion, whatever that is, but you want to be included

Now you think they have the problem, but not you too?

[myauq]

You expect them to speak English to you.

They don't want to speak English to you, cuz this's Thailand

You don't want to learn enough thai to be able to converse in their already on going "thaily" discussion, whatever that is, but you want to be included

Now you think they have the problem, but not you too?

for the hundredth time, i tried speaking in thai to them at first, and when nothing came of that, i just got frustrated and used my english. either way - nothing.

samuian - i'm with you. i work in a large company, interacting with foreign clients on a daily basis. this is one good reason the company, with its thai owners, won't go international.

it's not about needing to appreciate the langauge and culture.

[Samuian]

You expect them to speak English to you.

They don’t want to speak English to you, cuz this’s Thailand

You don’t want to learn enough thai to be able to converse in their already on going “thaily” discussion, whatever that is, but you want to be included

Now you think they have the problem, but not you too?

You don't want to get it, it's about the host, why not make the move as they CAN speak English, why not to include them?

They don’t want to speak English to you, cuz this’s Thailand

is rubbish!

Tell me that if Russian airplane approaches Thai airspace and the pilot is asking for landing procedures the Thai air control employee will go: "ha, ha! You must speak Thai with me because you are now in Thai air space!" ?????????

Or in a resort/hotel the staff will welcome the holiday makers with "You will all be addressed in Thai and will have to order and converse in Thai ONLY because you are in Thailand now!" ?

Get real!

samuian - i'm with you. i work in a large company, interacting with foreign clients on a daily basis. this is one good reason the company, with its thai owners, won't go international.

it's not about needing to appreciate the language and culture.

understand, I am since many years in a rather similar situation an do know exactly what it is, you are on all about!

It's easier to make a camel jump through a needles eye... if they don't want, there is no way... so you ot plenty of advice already... not all are the same... might be the only way for them, this particular group that the "alpha leader" had decided for them that you're not worth it, is sometimes as simple as that - check out the Soap Operas much of its content is next days replay in daily life!

Edited August 25, 2008 by Samuian

[klikster]

Thais are reluctant, even shy, to speak English to each other - they feel it's pretentious and "showing off".

If one of them starts a conversation with you in English, all other contributors to the conversation will be obliged to speak English too, even when they address each other on the subject.

Imagine for a moment how you would feel if there was another Farang present but you had to speak to him in Thai?

Patrick

If you think that, you should visit Foodland when the girls are restocking shelves. I lurked nearby for a couple of minutes one day listening in amazement at how well they were speaking english among themselves .. "work talk", not showing off their english.

Thais who are serious about maintaining their fluency in english will converse with each other in english.

Most of my Thai friends are fluent in English. When we were first getting acquainted, they basically did the same thing, all conversations in Thai.

The first instance of my personal rebellion came when one fried asked, "Are you having a good time?"

Me: "Oh, hel_l yes! What more could I want than to sit for 2 hours listening to a conversation I don't have a clue about?"

Phase 2: After awhile, I would get up and start to leave.

"Where are you going?"

"Somewhere where I understand what is going on?"

When I'm invited socially, especially to someone's home, those Thai who are reluctant to try their english don't usually cause a problem for me, because understanding required no "confidence". The wife of a close friend is fluent in written english (she corrects his Thai to english certified translations), but she is very reluctant to speak even a few words. I speak as much Thai to he as I'm capable.

Now my friends mostly speak english when I'm in the group. They do understand that it is rude to linguistically exclude a friend, and will sometimes say, "Pardon me wile I talk to him in Thai. I need to talk to him something and don't know how to say it in english."

[teacup]

You expect them to speak English to you.

They don't want to speak English to you, cuz this's Thailand

You don't want to learn enough thai to be able to converse in their already on going "thaily" discussion, whatever that is, but you want to be included

Now you think they have the problem, but not you too?

for the hundredth time, i tried speaking in thai to them at first, and when nothing came of that, i just got frustrated and used my english. either way - nothing.

samuian - i'm with you. i work in a large company, interacting with foreign clients on a daily basis. this is one good reason the company, with its thai owners, won't go international.

it's not about needing to appreciate the langauge and culture.

Somehow something is not right here. From what I know the “educated” thais aren’t generally the rude type, esp with the coworkers. I hate to blah blah away….when I think the story is quite incomplete and something else is missing here. Hmm…..What could it be?

[barky]

Simple really. If you really feel left-out or want to join in, learn Thai well enough to hold and maintain a conversation. If not stick with your western mate and forget them. I shouldn't worry too much about wanting to be one of the gang. Do you really need to be that close to them anyhow?

[onethailand]

Finally, remember that you may be just the next in a long line of foreigners who have come and gone at your workplace. The workers may feel it's not worth investing too much effort in getting to know you, as you'll probably move on after a year or so.

LOL. Funny but sometimes true.

The whole point is that the OP is obviously not making himself part of the group - it has nothing to do with how new you are, but your ability to blend in.

When I first came to Thailand, I had staff who would go out of their way to "dip" (a very polite action done by females which sadly is not commonly seen any more) - even when I told them there was no need. They insisted on calling me "Khun" even though I told them this is not necessary. In short, there is a level of politeness that is ingrained in their upbringing which they will adhere to even if not necessary.

That being said - they would still go to lunch and speak Thai amongst themselves even when they invited me along (which was basically every day).

When I went to visit clients - always the same thing - get invited to lunch, but not as a formal business lunch. Go along - and they may make some occasional small talk with you but mostly they will converse amongst themselves. It is not only polite, it is a form of acceptance, to be invited to lunch.

These days, when I go to conferences (overseas, and obviously attended by farangs), we commonly invite everyone along for a drink or a meal after hours - we do this out of politeness as well. But that does not obligate us to entertain them or spend all our time trying to assimilate that person into our group - if he/she is funny or interesting enough, they will work their own way into the group, no matter their command of English.

If you feel left out - it's probably because you're not doing whatever it takes to blend in. You do NOT need to speak Thai - you DO need to share common interests.

i am leaving this place soon anyway, and i will find ways of avoiding having to go and eat with them in the future.

I think this is the whole problem. It's clear you don't want to be a part of this group. And perhaps it's clear to them that you want no part of them - end of story. All you have to do is politely refuse further invitations - and both you and they will feel a lot more comfortable.

A common form of greeting by the Chinese is "Have you eaten?" This is said in the same context as "Yo Joe! How's you doin?" The Chinese ask "Have you eaten?" because they believe it is difficult to have a proper conversation when one tank is empty. On the other hand, you are not really expected to accept the invitation.

Exactly. This is why you are extended an invitation - because it is the polite thing to do. There are no other obligations by either side.

[teacup]

You expect them to speak English to you.

They don’t want to speak English to you, cuz this’s Thailand

You don’t want to learn enough thai to be able to converse in their already on going “thaily” discussion, whatever that is, but you want to be included

Now you think they have the problem, but not you too?

You don't want to get it, it's about the host, why not make the move as they CAN speak English, why not to include them?

They don’t want to speak English to you, cuz this’s Thailand

is rubbish!

Tell me that if Russian airplane approaches Thai airspace and the pilot is asking for landing procedures the Thai air control employee will go: "ha, ha! You must speak Thai with me because you are now in Thai air space!" ?????????

Or in a resort/hotel the staff will welcome the holiday makers with "You will all be addressed in Thai and will have to order and converse in Thai ONLY because you are in Thailand now!" ?

Get real!

Samui

You just don’t give up, do you?

We’re on the diff situation here, and I was trying to be very specific on the OP situation in his/her office, not some airspace over Vanatu or the hotel situation.

[Samuian]

Simple really. If you really feel left-out or want to join in, learn Thai well enough to hold and maintain a conversation. ...

Well hence he started to learn Thai and started a simple conversation in thai, still they are able to communicate in ENGLISH, why they don't?

So his next assignment will take him to Kyrgyzstan, then to Azerbaijan, to Denmark, the next to Yemen, the one after 48 months to France... get the point?

Or do these "rules" in such cases only apply for Thai-land? (tongue in cheek)

see the ridiculous?

[myauq]

Simple really. If you really feel left-out or want to join in, learn Thai well enough to hold and maintain a conversation. If not stick with your western mate and forget them. I shouldn't worry too much about wanting to be one of the gang. Do you really need to be that close to them anyhow?

not my mate either, just because we are both farang.

[singa-traz]

At lunch, I never had a problem getting a colleague to translate part of a conversation in English if I did not understood what was discussed in Thai, and then jump in the discussion ... in English.

English is not my first language, and I'd be too lazy to have a conversation in English, when most if not all of the audience would understand my native language, just for one fellow, unless he had something to contribute to the discussion.

The OP is moving to greener pastures ... it doesn't look like he will be missed by his colleagues.

[myauq]

You expect them to speak English to you.

They don't want to speak English to you, cuz this's Thailand

You don't want to learn enough thai to be able to converse in their already on going "thaily" discussion, whatever that is, but you want to be included

Now you think they have the problem, but not you too?

You don't want to get it, it's about the host, why not make the move as they CAN speak English, why not to include them?

They don't want to speak English to you, cuz this's Thailand

is rubbish!

Tell me that if Russian airplane approaches Thai airspace and the pilot is asking for landing procedures the Thai air control employee will go: "ha, ha! You must speak Thai with me because you are now in Thai air space!" ?????????

Or in a resort/hotel the staff will welcome the holiday makers with "You will all be addressed in Thai and will have to order and converse in Thai ONLY because you are in Thailand now!" ?

Get real!

Samui

You just don't give up, do you?

We're on the diff situation here, and I was trying to be very specific on the OP situation in his/her office, not some airspace over Vanatu or the hotel situation.

but i do work in a large thai company, where all of us converse with multinational clients in english everyday. they have these jobs because they can speak english, very well.

that kind of attitude does nothing to help strengthen their business opportunites, for themselves or the company. it's the thais who miss out by being so parochial.

[sylviex]

Another factor, I believe, is fear of loss of face due to the conversational content (not just use of English).

I soon learnt that when you need to ask a work-related question, ask when nobody else can hear. This means that person's possible inability to answer your question, or to answer it adequately, will not be exposed.

In both examples you gave of conversations you attempted, this was a possibility (living overseas being expensive & the song). They didn't answer because the topic was sensitive or they didn't know the answer.

Talking amongst eachother, Thais know how to avoid this by sticking to safe topics. There's little chance of the carefully maintained face presented to the world being challenged.

When foreigners enter the mix, there's no knowing what indecencies and blunders might be introduced.

This is even more true of educated Thais, as they are somewhat more aware of gaps in general knowledge and also have more face to lose.

On the other hand, I have had amazingly intimate confessions and confidences from Asian coworkers when nobody else is around. The bathroom is a popular venue for these !

Edited August 25, 2008 by sylviex

[onethailand]

OP, you don't get the point, do you?

The language is NOT the issue. Your lack of common interests IS.

[myauq]

OP, you don't get the point, do you?

The language is NOT the issue. Your lack of common interests IS.

subjects tried by me:

sport

olympics - thai's wieghtlifting gold medal

football - european cup

music

downloaded thai karaoke (limited sucess, but ultimately rejection)

music on tv in restaurant

politics

pad protests (limited success)

work

relationships

best practice

food (ad nausia)

'what's this called, etc?'

'this is nice...' 'aroi maart...'

buddhism

importance of going to the temple

being a monk (i used to be one)

language

'how do you say this...' etc.

[myauq]

OP, you don't get the point, do you?

The language is NOT the issue. Your lack of common interests IS.

like i said right at the begining i don't think they are doing it deliberately, but it's certainly to their detriment and not mine.

[onethailand]

subjects tried by me:

sport

olympics - thai's wieghtlifting gold medal

football - european cup

Not knowing whether your workers were male, female, age, type of work they do, it would be hard for me to try and determine which subjects were and were not of interest to your colleagues.

That being said - there isn't so much one can say about the gold medal, other than the Thais are proud of their countrywoman. How long do you think a conversation about weightlifting would go on?

Euro Cup - might be a good choice of subject with the males, but not all of them are necessarily into football (though I must admit most of the ones I know are).

music

downloaded thai karaoke (limited sucess, but ultimately rejection)

music on tv in restaurant

Um... boring

politics

pad protests (limited success)

Hard to say. But a lot of people are actually completely disinterested in what the PAD is doing.

work

relationships

best practice

As I pointed out earlier, lunch is for socializing and gossip. Not really a place to talk about work unless they are all either upset or very excited about some development.

food (ad nausia)

'what's this called, etc?'

'this is nice...' 'aroi maart...'

You mean they don't answer you when you ask what a particular dish is called? Saying something is "aroi maak" is not guaranteed to start a conversation about the history of the dish, why a particular vendor is famous for this dish, etc. And even then a conversation wouldn't last long.

buddhism

importance of going to the temple

being a monk (i used to be one)

Uninteresting. Religion is not lunchtime talk.

language

'how do you say this...' etc.

And you mean they don't answer you here either, or is it that perhaps they don't know how to explain something?

Most lunchtime talk I ever hear has to do with:

"Hey! Did you know Tata broke up with Prem?"

"Yesterday I got all wet because the taxi driver wouldn't take my fare"

"I'm going to Hua Hin at the weekend, wanna come?"

"I just got a new girlfriend/boyfriend who I met at Santika last Saturday night"

"Crazy - that stupid skin whitener I bought was so expensive and all it did was give me pimples"

"Crap - I bet on Arsenal giving away 1 ball and that stupid Van Persie missed a sitter!"

"Can you lend me a couple thousand baht? My parent's water buffalo died and I need to buy a new one for them"

What you mentioned above is mostly either serious or something which does not lend itself to conversation, let alone mutual interests.

I will be the first to admit that I didn't always blend in easily with my Thai colleagues - particularly as I am not a big social animal. But some of them are still my friends 15 years later - because we share common interests. Yes, it does help that I can speak reasonable Thai - but the language is not, and never was, an issue.

[myauq]

subjects tried by me:

sport

olympics - thai's wieghtlifting gold medal

football - european cup

Not knowing whether your workers were male, female, age, type of work they do, it would be hard for me to try and determine which subjects were and were not of interest to your colleagues.

That being said - there isn't so much one can say about the gold medal, other than the Thais are proud of their countrywoman. How long do you think a conversation about weightlifting would go on?

Euro Cup - might be a good choice of subject with the males, but not all of them are necessarily into football (though I must admit most of the ones I know are).

music

downloaded thai karaoke (limited sucess, but ultimately rejection)

music on tv in restaurant

Um... boring

politics

pad protests (limited success)

Hard to say. But a lot of people are actually completely disinterested in what the PAD is doing.

work

relationships

best practice

As I pointed out earlier, lunch is for socializing and gossip. Not really a place to talk about work unless they are all either upset or very excited about some development.

food (ad nausia)

'what's this called, etc?'

'this is nice...' 'aroi maart...'

You mean they don't answer you when you ask what a particular dish is called? Saying something is "aroi maak" is not guaranteed to start a conversation about the history of the dish, why a particular vendor is famous for this dish, etc. And even then a conversation wouldn't last long.

buddhism

importance of going to the temple

being a monk (i used to be one)

Uninteresting. Religion is not lunchtime talk.

language

'how do you say this...' etc.

And you mean they don't answer you here either, or is it that perhaps they don't know how to explain something?

Most lunchtime talk I ever hear has to do with:

"Hey! Did you know Tata broke up with Prem?"

"Yesterday I got all wet because the taxi driver wouldn't take my fare"

"I'm going to Hua Hin at the weekend, wanna come?"

"I just got a new girlfriend/boyfriend who I met at Santika last Saturday night"

"Crazy - that stupid skin whitener I bought was so expensive and all it did was give me pimples"

"Crap - I bet on Arsenal giving away 1 ball and that stupid Van Persie missed a sitter!"

"Can you lend me a couple thousand baht? My parent's water buffalo died and I need to buy a new one for them"

What you mentioned above is mostly either serious or something which does not lend itself to conversation, let alone mutual interests.

I will be the first to admit that I didn't always blend in easily with my Thai colleagues - particularly as I am not a big social animal. But some of them are still my friends 15 years later - because we share common interests. Yes, it does help that I can speak reasonable Thai - but the language is not, and never was, an issue.

to address one point made above.

they are all buddhist.

we were at a restaurant one time where i could see they were talking about the pictures on the wall. it was obvious to me that they were saying the monk's picture should be higher than the king's, because the king has to wai the monk, even though it was the other way around in the restaurant. i nodded my head in agreement. but they mocked me for pretending to understand, as if i didn't have a clue, and was just feigning an interest. i used to be a monk, and that upset me a little.

now, is that not rude?

[gymshark]

yeah, slap em.

[sylviex]

Yes, it is rather rude. It is clear you have made many efforts but your co-workers appear not to merit it much. Mai pen rai.

I have noticed that *sometimes*, *some* Thais seem to get a little "possessive" about their culture. They *sometimes* seem to be slightly annoyed/puzzled (perhaps annoyed because puzzled ?) if you display understanding in the way you did with the pictures. Perhaps they feel that this area, at least, should be one in which they can feel confident their understanding is "superior".

[Jeddah Jo]

Seems to me like you just have a bad case of culture shock, and now it has built up in to resentment so will be almost impossible to fix.

I used to work in Europe a lot, and I can assure everyone at lunch spoke their own language. It is just not relaxing having to speak in a 2nd language. And yes, you can feel isolated if you do not understand what is going on.

Easy conclusion therefore is change your situation. Either find someone to go to lunch with 1 on 1, or just amuse yourself and go eat wherever you want. I am sure they won't take offence especially if you say 'My Thai is not really good enough and I can't follow what you say.' In short, you are definitely expecting too much of them to speak English every day at lunch.

There may be a side issue that they resent the fact you earn more than them, but then that is only human. As many other posters have asked, why do you really give a sh*t what they think, it's not likely they are going to be lifelong buddies.

JJ.

[onethailand]

to address one point made above.

they are all buddhist.

<deleted>... if we are all Christian, does that mean we like to talk about religion?

we were at a restaurant one time where i could see they were talking about the pictures on the wall. it was obvious to me that they were saying the monk's picture should be higher than the king's, because the king has to wai the monk, even though it was the other way around in the restaurant. i nodded my head in agreement. but they mocked me for pretending to understand, as if i didn't have a clue, and was just feigning an interest. i used to be a monk, and that upset me a little.

now, is that not rude?

First of all, how is it that they mocked you? Second of all, how is it obvious that you knew what they were saying?

While you may be technically correct about the picture of a monk supposed to be higher than that of the King, it is rare that any Thai would place any photograph above that of the King. Furthermore, in a situation such as this, normally the picture of the monk and the picture of the King would not be seen in the same place so as to avoid any confllict.

[southerndog]

Dude, they just don't like speaking English. Its much easier not to try and communicate. its all such a pain in the ass.

[Andrew Hicks]

The Thai seem not to have any concern at all whether someone feels excluded. Again, not because of rudeness, simply because it doesn't cross their mind. There is no social concern for anyone other than Thai. A result of a closed society I'd think.

I have been here 20 years and I find the exact opposite.

Thais almost always try to include us and make us feel welcome even when it is a pain in the butt for them. I have had this happen over and over again in different circumstances and it had nothing to do with money.

That one of the reasons that I love to live here. I almost never feel lonely.

I have to wonder what you are doing to get such a different reaction than most foreigners that I know.

Yes, Thais are considerate and work hard to include us in every respect except perhaps one.

They can be embarrassed to chat in English, too lazy or simply do not realise that conversation is a necessary part of social interaction.

Thais will often eat in silence and sometimes object if you try to talk. Any chat must be at as superficial level as possible. Anything serious is not acceptable.

Phrases like, 'Farang talk too much' and 'too serious' must be familiar to all old hands here.

Thais who are totally at ease with me in English and ready to talk will nonetheless revert to Thai if another Thai appears. I am then marginalised and left to stew and find it hard to get a word in edgeways.

Our idea of conversation and their's may be different. Anything of any substance could threaten or confront and so is avoided.

Thai culture is mysterious and unknowable and one wonders what's going on under the surface... if there is anything that is.

(I didn't really mean that last swipe!)