PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station

[Thai at Heart]

I know there are differences betweens some populations in the Thai Kingdom.

In France, a Breton will feel different from an Alasacian or a Languedocien or a Corse (even if it's something I personally cannot understand) but we feel that a vote from one of us has the same value than the one of a guy located at 800 km. Same in US between a San Francisco professor and redneck from Alabama.

My point is: do you think this ... PAD despises people from Issan just because they are Isarn?

No. I don't think PAD despises the people of Issarn. The people who PAD represent (urban elite mainly of Chinese origin) need the people of Issarn as cheap labour to support their own lifestyle and level of wealth. A true democratic system of government would have to make some concessions to the people of Issarn at the expense of the urban elite ruling class due to the numerical voting power of Issarn. I am talking things like better health care, general infrastructure, more productive enterprises and education. Those things are starting to happen now and the ruling elite perceive it as a threat to their power and status. A more level social playing field would be to the disadvantage of the urban elite masters in Bangkok. Even though Issarn people are regarded as inferior lower class citizens by the central an southern middle and elite class, they are much needed to do the menial and dirty jobs for very low pay under the present status quo.

As stated in an earlier post, the people of Issarn don't really produce much to benefit the countries economy except a cheap source of labour. The main industry is agriculture on mainly marginal soils and therefore incomes are quite low even by Thai standards. So basically we have one third of the countries population caught in a trap of debt and poverty. The wealthy ruling class would like to keep it this way but as democratically elected governments have to offer some incentives to voters in order to get into power, the people of Issarn are slowly gaining a better deal under a democratic system. Such is the reason PAD wants to exclude them from their right to vote in future elections.

I won't keep this specifically to Isaan, but the non elite/upper middle classes probably produce 90% of the countries foodstuffs, which feed the country and at export pay for numerous Merc's flying around Bangkok. What the PAD wants is that the 'farmers' stay exactly where they are and don't get above their station.

Without these people there is virtually no Thai economy from Toyotas put together by rafts of underpaid up country born employees to a plate of mangoes and sticky rice grown with the sweat of the farmer. One only has to look at the traffic jams on the roads coming north and north east at Songkran to realise that half the population of Bangkok has been imported.

The average age of farmers is growing every year as the youth move to Bangkok to work. In 20 years there won't be anyone left in the fields. It would be interesting if people were allowed to vote where they reside, and not where they come from. The dems wouldn't get a seat even in Bangkok.

[DavidHouston]

In reference to the news article above, a language note: อารยะขัดขืน (ʔaaráyáʔ khàt khʉ̌ʉn) means Civil Disobedience.

[animatic]

Lets stop this NBT invasion by PAD talk.

This 'invasion' took place at 5 am

45 minutes to an hour before PAD was scheduled to leave to walk to NBT.

PAD was at the bridge talking about going there, not even marching yet.

They DID show up later AFTER the 85 had been taken away like cowed sheep.

2,000 PAD did finally show up and not enter the building.

They made noise.

It may or may not have been done by Panlop to gain some advantage,

He took some credit for trying to speed things up.

He has been silent since then too.

Who ever did it likely recruited and co-opted a

very few hot heads from PAD, as sacraficial lambs to the slaughter.

But PAD leadership were clearly caught flat footed by this.

They were sandbagged and that's obvious.

This was a set up and nothing before or after has been similar.

This was the opposition or an outside party setting them up.

Puppet masters to the last.

Just drop the dis-information.

Edited September 1, 2008 by animatic

[ubonjoe]

Jongrak orders police to carry only shields

Pol Col Jongrak Chuthanon, deputy police commissioner-general, said Monday that he had ordered metropolitan police to carry only shields and refrain from carrying batons or any other arms when dealing with protesters.

Jongrak, who is acting metropolitan police chief, gave the order during a meeting of commanders of all units under the Metropolitan Police Bureau at its head office at 8:30 am Monday.

The Nation

[ando]

...which should be no surprise considering the elation and celebration that many in Bangkok greeted the last coup with. - tanks festooned with flower garlands,, yellow shirt matrons handing out ice cream to semi dazed young infantryment- kids photographed with grinning soldiers, coyote girls prancing around in abbreviated military garb- An avuncular old PM appointed by a handsome young general- those were gooooood times.

Yes. A party atmosphere for those who backed the coup. But for those who opposed it, armed soldiers and tanks on the streets clearly meant deadly force would be used against any opposition. Not exactly cause for celebration for the silent majority who subsequently came out and overwhelmingly voted for the current coalition government when given a free choice.

[Old Man River]

Finally, from the Bangkok Post:

Tyranny of a minority

In other civilised countries, such a provocation and occupation of the seat of government would have been met with a swift and complete enforcement of the law to regain the state properties. Instead, the PAD's revolting rampage has been met with tamed official responses. Even at Makkhawan Bridge in an old and historic area of Bangkok where altercations between the authorities and protesters ensued following a police attempt to dismantle the three-months-old protest site, injuries were limited. More protesters were injured when they marched and confronted police at the gates of the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Stationed inside the gates with the PAD crowds massing outside, the police reportedly deployed several tear gas canisters.

In addition, as the PAD bullies its way in a unilateral and anti-democratic effort to bring closure on the Samak government, its many sceptics and critics are cowed into silence. Dissent against the PAD brings personal attacks and character assassinations.

Yet this is the time for those myriad Thais - the silent majority - who never liked Mr Thaksin then and despise Mr Samak now - to come out and condemn the PAD's blatant hijacking of Thailand's democratic system. They lack the PAD's voice, vehicle and organisation, but they must find a way to speak out.

Article continues here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=130220

I have to disagree with part of the authors assessment in that link.

In particular I refer to the reasons why Samak seems powerless to stop PADs illegal occupation of Government House.

The writer said, -- " Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej's role in the October 1976 suppression also constrains him from being seen as trigger-happy. As a result, Mr Samak has allowed the PAD to rule the streets and illegally occupy Government House. "

And.

" Mr Samak cannot crack down on the illegal occupants of Government House for fear of what is perceived as his past sins and the potential for a broad-based confrontation and violence."

I don't believe this is true at all. Samak was quite prepared to use riot police to remove protesters from government house until the court folded to PADs resistance and withdrew its eviction order giving Samak legal authority to use force. This was a failure of the courts to perform their lawful duty and left Samak on dubious legal and moral ground if he had proceeded to clear the occupiers by force. I don't believe Samak is worried about his tough guy image at all. In fact the great majority of the countries voters would no doubt support him if he was to use reasonable force to remove PAD from government house. After all, its what any responsible leader in any developed democracy would do and indeed would be obligated to do.

Another factor of course is that a violent clash between riot police and PAD protesters would run the risk of initiating a military coup against the government.

It has been reported that the military chiefs have refused to comply with any directive to remove the protesters if Samak declares a state of emergency, but have instead suggested Samak should resign. Although this attitude may change after the military reshuffle.

It has also been reported in the media that in his audience with the King on Saturday, Samak was directed to avoid violence and to go softly and gently against the protesters.

With the courts, the military and the King all refusing to back a forceful eviction of the protesters Samak has little choice but to sit this confrontation out.

"

Because of the events that occured in 1992, 1976 and at at other times where the reaction to protests and demonstrations that lead to the deaths of many that has been highly publicized in recent years any Prime Minister, General or goverment would be highly reluctant to use force because of the publics reaction to it. We have seen that this week where they were accused of "brutality" by a lot of people. When in reality overall did it in a very restrained manor.

Yes, I do acknowledge your point there.

Its quite obvious that PAD has been actively seeking confrontation and a violent response from the government in the hope of inciting another military coup.

In my view, the talk of a military coup is being overdone. Even if the PAD really wanted a coup (note, last week Chamlong said they didn't), there is no incentive for the military. There would need to be an upside for the military and right now there is no upside. The perceived threat that Thaksin posed to Thailand's power structure has been blocked. Thaksin has fled the country, his money is frozen and he has countless court cases against him. In addition, his wife has been found guilty of tax fraud and sentenced to jail. Where is the incentive for the military to stage another coup?

What Chamlong has said the PAD wants is for politicians to leave the constitution alone and for Samak to resign unconditionally. If Samak does seek to change the constitution to protect Thaksin from the court cases then the threat of a coup would resurface, but not now.

[sriracha john]

Kowit, police assessing PAD movements

The Deputy Prime Minister and Interior Minister Police General Kowit Wattana met top police officials on Monday morning to evaluate the PAD’s mass anti-government rally in the country. The meeting was attended by the Commissioner-General of the Royal Thai Police, Police General Patcharawat Wongsuwan, and the Police Deputy Commissioner-General and acting Metropolitan Police Commander Police General Jongrak Juthanont, and other senior police officials. Meanwhile, police stationed in various rally areas of Bangkok are working in shifts and are overseeing the situation closely.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=130231

Edited September 1, 2008 by sriracha john

[Bangyai]

Democracy means that you can demonstrate without being afraid to go to jail (or worse).

Democracy means equal rights for everyone and not just for a small, rich, group

Democracy means the opportunity to think critically.

Democracy means the chance to be assertive.

Democracy means fair elections, a valid and reliable choice of government.

You really think that Thailand is a democracy?

Some of your points are flawed.

"Democracy means that you can demonstrate [legally] without being afraid to go to jail (or worse)." And does socialism not allow any of that same freedom?

"Democracy means equal rights for everyone and not just for a small, rich, group" This is a pipe dream, IMO.

"Democracy means the opportunity to think critically." There was much critical thinking under totalinarism.

"Democracy means the chance to be assertive." And socialism?

"Democracy means fair elections, a valid and reliable choice of government." I can name a major world power where the that seems to have not been the case 8 years ago.

"You really think that Thailand is a democracy?"

Tell us about all the true democracies where the media, old guard, rich and famous, or the royalist elite do no control the selection of governments.

Even then, democracy does not equal liberty.

CHANG NOI

The facts about vote-buying and the patronage system

By Chang Noi

Published on September 1, 2008

Over the last couple of years, concern about vote-buying has been on the rise. The story goes like this. Voters upcountry are too poor and too poorly educated. Some sell their vote for cash on the spot. Others are victims of "the patronage system" and obey the instructions of a patron on how to vote in return for continuing patronage of various kinds.

The argument then continues: vote-buying and the patronage system mean that one-man/one-vote elections cannot work in Thailand. There needs to be some "Thai-style" alternative. This might be some corporatist method of representation such as the People's Alliance for Democracy proposed. It might mean diminishing the power of the elected Parliament, and returning more power to the bureaucracy.

According to legend, vote-buying began in spectacular fashion in Roi Et in 1981, engineered by people in the military. It then swelled over the following two decades. At election time, banks calculate massive rises in money circulation, and journalists love describing complex systems involving lotteries. A brilliant study done in Ayutthaya in the mid-1990s showed that monks, gunmen, and local officials were all deeply involved. Vote-buying is part of the political culture; of that there is little doubt.

But vote-buying is not a simple matter. The practice has been in place for a quarter-century. The number of elections has multiplied - for Parliament, Senate, municipality, provincial council, sub-district council, and so on. Thais have become some of the most experienced voters in the world. There has been a lot of learning about how to use the vote.

In the early history of Thai vote-buying, candidates thrust red notes into voters' hands in order to create an obligation. Once a voter had accepted the candidate's generosity, it would be bad manners not to repay that generosity when casting the vote. But this kind of naive transaction did not last long. By the mid-1990s, some voters would take money from every candidate, and then vote how they pleased. Others would only take from a candidate they had already decided to vote for, in order not to create an obligation.

Candidates still had to offer money. Not doing so would risk being branded as "ungenerous" and thus not worth electing. This was particularly true of candidates known to be rich. Vote-buying has thus become a bit like a candidate's deposit, distributed among the voters rather than paid to the authorities.

By the mid-1990s, vote negotiation had become much more complex than these simple retail transactions. Voters understood that candidates had the potential to offer much greater benefits than a few red notes. They could bring infrastructure spending and development projects with much more impact in the locality. Communities negotiated with candidates to promise scheme, and held them to their promises by the threat of withdrawing their vote at the next poll. Parliament created the "MPs fund" to enable sitting members to fulfil these promises. Lots of local infrastructure got built.

Since then, the system has shifted again. The 1997 constitution began a deliberate attempt to de-link this kind of local pork-barrel from national politics. The funding for local schemes has been substantially transferred from the national budget to local government. MPs have less influence on central-budget spending, and the MPs fund has disappeared. Elected provincial councils and municipalities now have big budgets. Many politicians have followed the money from national to local politics.

At the same time, the profile of the electorate has changed. The great 1986-1996 boom boosted incomes, and the 1997 bust only temporarily knocked them back. The expansion of secondary education in the 1980s began to work through to the electorate.

Then Thaksin changed the game in national politics. He promised some attractive re-distributive schemes, and delivered them. He centralised control over a fifth of the budget under his own executive authority, and toured the country dishing this out. The party and the prime minister became more important patrons than the local MP. Although the 2007 Constitution has reversed some of this change, the memory still dominates.

In the last couple of years, there have been studies of election practice in the North, Northeast, and South. The decision on casting a vote is now very complex and involves the party, the candidate, and the money. In the South, voters feel a strong emotional pull to vote Democrat. In the North and Northeast, Thaksin's schemes have created a strong pull towards the People Power Party/Thai Rak Thai. Yet the candidate also undergoes scrutiny. Is he a local person, someone close to us? Can he get things done, and does he have the track record to prove it? Is he reasonably honest? Does he have the right kind of friends? Finally, does he prove his generosity with a gift? Only candidates known to have modest wealth are excused this obligation, yet can still be elected on grounds of their social contribution.

At the recent poll, there did not seem to be much money around. After three elections in three years, pockets were empty. Candidates feared disqualification. The issue at stake in the poll was so stark, that a few hundred baht was not likely to matter.

So why the current panic about vote-buying? The upcountry electorate is richer, better educated, and more experienced at elections than ever before. In truth, the problem is not that upcountry voters don't know how to use their vote, and that the result is distorted by patronage and vote-buying. The problem is that they have learnt to use the vote only too well. Over four national polls, they have chosen very consistently and very rationally.

And, of course, that may be the real problem. Back when many upcountry electors sold their votes, and as a result their weight in national politics was zero, nobody cared so much about vote-buying. But now the electors have got smart, they have to be stopped. The bleating about vote-buying and patronage politics is simply an attempt to undermine electoral democracy because it seems to be working.

I believe the last 3 paragraphs may explain a lot of the reasons as to why we are in this ridiculous situation.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/09/01...on_30082102.php

Good Post. If Sondhis will prevails people won't have to worry about vote buying anymore . They just won't have a vote at all unless they are of the approved urban elite.

[pumpuiman]

Lets stop this NBT invasion by PAD talk.

This 'invasion' took place at 5 am

45 minutes to an hour before PAD was scheduled to leave to walk to NBT.

PAD was at the bridge talking about going there, not even marching yet.

They DID show up later AFTER the 85 had been taken away like cowed sheep.

2,000 PAD did finally show up and not enter the building.

They made noise.

It may or may not have been done by Panlop to gain some advantage,

He took some credit for trying to speed things up.

He has been silent since then too.

Who ever did it likely recruited and co-opted a

very few hot heads from PAD, as sacraficial lambs to the slaughter.

But PAD leadership were clearly caught flat footed by this.

They were sandbagged and that's obvious.

This was a set up and nothing before or after has been similar.

This was the opposition or an outside party setting them up.

Puppet masters to the last.

Just drop the dis-information.

Who ever did it likely recruited and co-opted a

very few hot heads from PAD,

So whats the disinformation? You admit it was PAD....I didn't say it was a bunch of old ladies in yellow shirts.

It was PAD (sorry if it wasn't the kind of PAD you wanted)

[ando]

I won't keep this specifically to Isaan, but the non elite/upper middle classes probably produce 90% of the countries foodstuffs, which feed the country and at export pay for numerous Merc's flying around Bangkok. What the PAD wants is that the 'farmers' stay exactly where they are and don't get above their station.

Without these people there is virtually no Thai economy from Toyotas put together by rafts of underpaid up country born employees to a plate of mangoes and sticky rice grown with the sweat of the farmer. One only has to look at the traffic jams on the roads coming north and north east at Songkran to realise that half the population of Bangkok has been imported.

The average age of farmers is growing every year as the youth move to Bangkok to work. In 20 years there won't be anyone left in the fields. It would be interesting if people were allowed to vote where they reside, and not where they come from. The dems wouldn't get a seat even in Bangkok.

Quite right.

The rural poor are becoming the urban poor as they send their kids off to work in the big city. Whether they are working in the rice fields, the factories or as a maid of labourer in Bangkok these Issarn people are still the underclass poor.

[sriracha john]

I got to watch Thai TV for half an hour this evening - haven't seen any golf clubs or violence. There were shots of people in black t-shirts arrested this morning, but I'd rather concur with Sondhi - they don't look like PAD supporters, more like thugs who were beating up people at Central World two years ago almost to the day.

Hopefully tomorrow's papers sort it out, for now it looks like early morning raid on NBT wasn't PAD's work at all.

"bump" of the below..

In Pad's history the leaders have ALWAYS talked down violence and such.

These people talk and disrupt traffic, and not much more than be a BIG thorn

in the current government's side. They have no history of violence,

only being the victims of violence against them.

Just because stupid people are doing stupid things doesn't mean dark forces are at work nor is there any evidence to support your wild conspiracy theory. IMHO.

Arrested today was Nitirat Sapsomboon....

(let google take it from there)

time for another bump

[sabaijai]

I think some are over-idealizing democracy while at the same time not understanding where Thailand is at, notionally.

What we see here is the shifting of power from one set of elites to another, as several posters have noted. That's pretty much the history of politics the world over, but each society has its own way of processing the shift.

Thailand does it this way:

Coup --> new constitution --> elections (sometime followed by another constitution) --> mass protest --> toppled govt and/or next coup

The Thais began the cycle in 1932, codified it in 1947 and have been improving on the same pattern ever since. Sondhi knows the rules of the game very well. Whatever minor violence he has propagated, some say, pales beside the crimes of Thaksin's drug war and Samak's involvement in the 1976 protests. The two have been in collusion together since 1977, shortly after the putdown, when Samak as interior minister allied with Thaksin to ensure ShinCorps got the monopoly bid for Thailand's first telsat system. In some circles they might be considered the civil equivalent of war criminals.

Where else in the world have we seen a political party like the PPP get elected when it's less than a year old? The villages are hoping for more handouts, even when it will put them in further debt.

The coup performed half the job the PAD are trying to finish, for better or worse.

[Bangyai]

I think that many of the PAD people do believe that they are fighting the good fight-

Of course they do, but no one explained to them that in a democracy you don't fight for change, you vote for it. It's not a perfect system by any means, but the alternatives are worse.

Democracy means that you can demonstrate without being afraid to go to jail (or worse).

Democracy means equal rights for everyone and not just for a small, rich, group

Democracy means the opportunity to think critically.

Democracy means the chance to be assertive.

Democracy means fair elections, a valid and reliable choice of government.

You really think that Thailand is a democracy?

Some good defininitions of democracy.

Pro Taksin demonstraters have protested and been imprisoned for crimes Sondhi has been released on bail for.

There won't be equal rights for everyone in the ' new politics ' favoured by PAD.Only a small rich group of urbanites will have full rights

In PADs vision of the future you will have the freedom to think critically as long as you keep your mouth shut.

There will be no assertiveness allowed to 70% of the people.

Lastly, in PADS opinions, unfair elections are the way to ensure an invalid but reliable govournment.

At the moment Thailand is only a flawed democracy but its better to build on this than do away with it altogether and replace it with a oligarchy.

If the PAD have their way Pratet Thai will become Pratet Taht....with a majority of the population viewed as nothing but a cheap scource of labour.

[animatic]

As stated in an earlier post, the people of Issarn don't really produce much to benefit the countries economy except a cheap source of labour. The main industry is agriculture on mainly marginal soils and therefore incomes are quite low even by Thai standards. So basically we have one third of the countries population caught in a trap of debt and poverty. The wealthy ruling class would like to keep it this way but as democratically elected governments have to offer some incentives to voters in order to get into power, the people of Issarn are slowly gaining a better deal under a democratic system. Such is the reason PAD wants to exclude them from their right to vote in future elections.

Lets not forget one of the few things this government DID actually do so far;

they grossly messed with the rice pledging schemes, dodgy to begin with,

and this for the benefit of the rich brokers; <deleted> all for the farmers.

And much of it just a face saving exercise regionally. Ah! Great governance.

And then a nice forgiveness pact for some rice millers who were banned

and now aren't. One must wonder what these nice folks did for PPP to get off the hook.

Certainly it has nothing to do with the rice GROWERS in the fields.

After the truck pulls up and pays a few baht the bag get's thrown in the truck

End of story for the rice grower.

To sat this government is functioning for the benefit of it's Issan voter base is ludicrise.

It is operating for the benefit of the influencial persons who manipulate the Issan voters

for benefit of the PPP

[Artisi]

Phitsanulok

Seems that the anti PAD group - Nor Por Kor are certainly paying supporters to attend rallies and also practice discrimination against the less fortunate rural people. The lady who comes to clean our house tells me today she was approached to join the Nor Por Kor at the city office in Phitsanulok (yesterday) in support of the government. If you live in Muang the rate is Bht 200, outsiders are only paid Bht 150. The banner you are to wave is delivered late at night by stealth and you have to make your own way to the rally point.

Seems like real democracy at work in conjunction with discrimination.

[sriracha john]

My point is: do you think this ... PAD despises people from Issan just because they are Isarn?

Perhaps members of the Local Chapters of PAD in Khon Kaen or other localities there might be a good source for the real answer.

[sriracha john]

To say this government is functioning for the benefit of its Issan voter base is ludicrous.

It is operating for the benefit of the influential persons who manipulate the Issan voters

for benefit of the PPP

worth repeating *with please excuse the obsessive spelling corrections, animatic*

Edited September 1, 2008 by sriracha john

[ando]

In my view, the talk of a military coup is being overdone. Even if the PAD really wanted a coup (note, last week Chamlong said they didn't), there is no incentive for the military. There would need to be an upside for the military and right now there is no upside. The perceived threat that Thaksin posed to Thailand's power structure has been blocked. Thaksin has fled the country, his money is frozen and he has countless court cases against him. In addition, his wife has been found guilty of tax fraud and sentenced to jail. Where is the incentive for the military to stage another coup?

What Chamlong has said the PAD wants is for politicians to leave the constitution alone and for Samak to resign unconditionally. If Samak does seek to change the constitution to protect Thaksin from the court cases then the threat of a coup would resurface, but not now.

I don't think there is much incentive for the military to mount another coup at the moment either. After the mess they made of things last time I doubt they want this current economic situation dropped in their laps. They have had their snouts in the trough only a few months ago and so the beast has been fed for now.

Throughout this past week the army was shown no willingness at all to get involved. They apparently have no desire to become a tool of the government to put down the protesters or to take control of the ailing economy as an interim government.

However if the situation descends to bloodshed in the street on a large scale (as it seems PAD wants) then the army will be obliged to step in, either under a state of emergency decree or of their own accord. If the armys hand was forced and they had to enter into the fray, the most likely outcome (imho) would be that they would take control completely and oust the elected government rather than being seen as subservient to Samak. This is what PAD is hoping for.

[Thai at Heart]

I won't keep this specifically to Isaan, but the non elite/upper middle classes probably produce 90% of the countries foodstuffs, which feed the country and at export pay for numerous Merc's flying around Bangkok. What the PAD wants is that the 'farmers' stay exactly where they are and don't get above their station.

Without these people there is virtually no Thai economy from Toyotas put together by rafts of underpaid up country born employees to a plate of mangoes and sticky rice grown with the sweat of the farmer. One only has to look at the traffic jams on the roads coming north and north east at Songkran to realise that half the population of Bangkok has been imported.

The average age of farmers is growing every year as the youth move to Bangkok to work. In 20 years there won't be anyone left in the fields. It would be interesting if people were allowed to vote where they reside, and not where they come from. The dems wouldn't get a seat even in Bangkok.

Quite right.

The rural poor are becoming the urban poor as they send their kids off to work in the big city. Whether they are working in the rice fields, the factories or as a maid of labourer in Bangkok these Issarn people are still the underclass poor.

And instead of trying to educate them to be the next generation of wealth creators in the country, some would rather they stay as the proletariat. It is only 125 years ago that, over 50% of the houses in the UK had live in home help. It will change in Thailand eventually that the up country masses will cease to be cheap labour. What has been spoken of (discussed/proposed/mentioned), is that better to disenfranchise these people beacuse they aren't smart enough. Well that idea might postpone the inevitable for a while, but it is no solution.

I visit a lot of factories around the eastern seaboard, and a high percentage (in some factories over 60%) of the engineers are from up country. They got educated and went where the jobs were. The factory floor labour ratio is even higher. Ironically, companies in Thailand can legally import labour because the cost is cheaper!!!

I am not an economic nationalist, (Thailands policies are already restrictive enough) but I don't think Thailand is quite ready to switch to a majority service based industry. These people are the countries productive future far more than some hi-so wannabee getting a license to import louis vuitton handbags because daddy went to university overseas with the MD.

[animatic]

To say this government is functioning for the benefit of its Issan voter base is ludicrous.

It is operating for the benefit of the influential persons who manipulate the Issan voters

for benefit of the PPP

worth repeating *with please excuse the obsessive spelling corrections, animatic*

Hey no problem.

I am a bit dyslexic,

sometimes I see the letter and it's not there.

Can happen for whole words or phrases too.

US VP Nelson Rockefeller had the same problem, but worse.

Didn't stop him from being a statesman, leader and thoughtful man.

This has a lot to do with my style for formating of my text.

I feel it is extremely important that I communicate my meanings,

more so than conforming to some arbitrary way of text formating.

So correct away.

[Old Man River]

The average age of farmers is growing every year as the youth move to Bangkok to work. In 20 years there won't be anyone left in the fields. It would be interesting if people were allowed to vote where they reside, and not where they come from. The dems wouldn't get a seat even in Bangkok.

Interesting comment given one of the reasons the Dems picked up a lot of votes in the last election has been attributed to the exact opposite of what you say. In the last national election, a Thai national could vote where they live if their name appeared on the house registration in the constituency for at least 90 days up to the date of the election.

[animatic]

I think some are over-idealizing democracy while at the same time not understanding where Thailand is at, notionally.

What we see here is the shifting of power from one set of elites to another, as several posters have noted. That's pretty much the history of politics the world over, but each society has its own way of processing the shift.

Thailand does it this way:

Coup --> new constitution --> elections (sometime followed by another constitution) --> mass protest --> toppled govt and/or next coup

The Thais began the cycle in 1932, codified it in 1947 and have been improving on the same pattern ever since. Sondhi knows the rules of the game very well. Whatever minor violence he has propagated, some say, pales beside the crimes of Thaksin's drug war and Samak's involvement in the 1976 protests. The two have been in collusion together since 1977, shortly after the putdown, when Samak as interior minister allied with Thaksin to ensure ShinCorps got the monopoly bid for Thailand's first telsat system. In some circles they might be considered the civil equivalent of war criminals.

Where else in the world have we seen a political party like the PPP get elected when it's less than a year old? The villages are hoping for more handouts, even when it will put them in further debt.

The coup performed half the job the PAD are trying to finish, for better or worse.

Excellent post!

And I haven't always agreed with earlier ones.

[ubonjoe]

The Nation

Protesters erect barbe wires at the exits of the Government House to prevent raids following mobilising of pro-government protesters.//Nanthasit Nitmatha

I don't remember seeing razor wire for sale at my local hardware store.

I wonder where they got it.

[ando]

It may well boil down to one corrupt group of elites battling another corrupt group of elites.

But one has to ask the question, -- is it better for the country to hand total political power to one corrupt group or to continue down the road towards democracy? PAD can not be allowed to turn back the clock on an emerging democracy for the sake of the nation.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Jongrak orders police to carry only shields

Pol Col Jongrak Chuthanon, deputy police commissioner-general, said Monday that he had ordered metropolitan police to carry only shields and refrain from carrying batons or any other arms when dealing with protesters.

Maybe he could tell them to tie their hands behind their backs, too.

Makes it very clear that the police have no intention to uphold law & order. Either you have an objective and you try to reach it with decisive action, or you're just farting around wasting time. They clearly seem happy to do the latter!

[Samuian]

.... voted for the current coalition government when given a free choice.

As it is a 6 Party Coalition which is, more or less, at the helm right now that wrestled itself to power through rampant vote buying* and several giant budget projects promised... the unbiased observer may abstain from calling this an "free elected" government, as very few before have been really voted into parliament!

* soon we will see the result of the election commission and following a court sentence by the supreme court.....

[sriracha john]

Thailand: Protesters misunderstood by Western media?

“There is something wrong with Dan Rivers and CNN. Many details in the articles online contain erroneous info and I've found phrases in English which clearly show they have poor translators working for them. In one very clear example I think it was Dan R. who cut up a quote by Sondhi Limthongkul (leader of PAD) to suggest Sondhi and the movement wants a democracy which would disenfranchise the rural poor—when the full quote is that we need an interim government for a period before holding elections.”

The writer clarifies that PAD is not against democracy; what it opposes is western-style capitalism and its excesses:

“Many news outlets portray PAD as being “not happy” with democracy. PAD is not happy with western style capitalism in Thailand which has grown like a cancer. This kind of capitalism is obviously deeply connected with the debased form of democracy pandered by Thaksin Shinawatra.

“PAD's slogan is ‘toon niyom samarn’ which is like ‘filthy capitalism’ in which you can buy everything and most importantly sell everything including national assets and bring in foreign investors to do what Thai people can do on their own.

“The movement is therefore condemned as being ‘nationalistic’ when in fact it's trying to stop the snowball effect of neocolonialism (economic colonialism). Hyper-nationalism or nationalism (which) leans more towards thinking one's nationality is superior to another—this is not what PAD has ever said”

Then the writer highlights a point missed by mainstream media:

“It's interesting to note, that the Thai idea of democracy at the grassroots level has shades of socialism. In fact many of the key PAD leaders are union leaders which allowed them to shut down the railways and now ports.

“Media in the West has left out the key detail that Thai Muslims are backing this protest as well. Maybe it's a good thing they haven't picked up on it though—before you know it they'll think PAD is a bunch of terrorists.

“Only in Thailand…a movement is 100% supported by the people. PAD gets free food, mobile bathrooms, clothing…everything even ice from volunteers. If they announce on the stage “we need flashlights, batteries, water”—it'll be there soon.”

- Global Voice / 2008-09-01

Edited September 1, 2008 by sriracha john

[Sao Jiang Mai]

I don't agree with the actions of the PAD, and I certainly don't agree with the actions of the government. But yesterday's debate was chilling in the lack of any conciliatory moves at all by the government. Rightly or wrongly, we are facing possible bloodshed. That has to be avoided at all cost. I believe that the government has to show good faith and has to be the 'bigger man' and take measures immediately to stop any voilence. The fact that not once did the government admit to using voilence, nor show any sympathy with victims, while standing firm in their positions, shows a lack of leadership. The opposition, senetors and media beged the government to find solutions - up to four viable solutions were offered (snap referendum, national party while planning for new election, dissolving the house and holding national election in sixty days, and the resignation of the government), these are all options. The government held the debate in order to listen to opinions, but made it clear within the first hour that they were not only going to continue with their combative stance, but used rhetoric which was agressive and rabble rousing. The government should be the better man, it should have a concience. PAD should too, but they do not represent the people, therefore they do not have the moral obligation that should weigh more with the government. Cessation of confrontation should be the government's priority, and the loss of power may have to be its sacrifice. I see no other solution. PAD is not going to go quietly into the night. I hope that Samak does.

[h90]

.... voted for the current coalition government when given a free choice.

As it is a 6 Party Coalition which is, more or less, at the helm right now that wrestled itself to power through rampant vote buying* and several giant budget projects promised... the unbiased observer may abstain from calling this an "free elected" government, as very few before have been really voted into parliament!

* soon we will see the result of the election commission and following a court sentence by the supreme court.....

just that runs very slow in Thailand, wouldn't be surprise if it would need another 6 month and than just a change of the name of the party.

If the election commission and the supreme court would work efficient and fast a PAD wouldn't be necessary.

[fidelio]

As stated in an earlier post, the people of Issarn don't really produce much to benefit the countries economy except a cheap source of labour. The main industry is agriculture on mainly marginal soils and therefore incomes are quite low even by Thai standards. So basically we have one third of the countries population caught in a trap of debt and poverty. The wealthy ruling class would like to keep it this way but as democratically elected governments have to offer some incentives to voters in order to get into power, the people of Issarn are slowly gaining a better deal under a democratic system. Such is the reason PAD wants to exclude them from their right to vote in future elections.

Oh really ?

Who then toils away at rice paddies that have enabled Thailand to become the 1st exporter of rice in the world ?