Digging A Lake/pond/reservoir

[jaideeguy]

I will be digging a 2 rai [approx] lake/pond/reservoir on rice land and using diggings for land fill to raise the remaining 5 rai up above flood level. Would like to hear about others experiences with this kind of project.

can a backhoe do all the digging and tractor to spread??

or can use a [track vehicle] bulldozer to do it all? [seems like the most practacle because a bulldozer could cut, compact and spread the fill??

Approximate costs for either method?

It's all soft clay around here and water table is around 6 mtrs, but we have a klong that has water during most of the year....runoff from rice fields upstream.

I would like to go as deep as possible...2 mtrs [or more?] .....what's the deepest one can go in endless clay soil??

And it seems that the dry season would be the best time to do the digging, as it would be a lot less messy and machinery could work easier??

any other comments, suggestions or ideas would be appreciated........

[ozzydom]

If a reasonable size dozer (D6 or bigger) is available ,this would be the most economical way to go,using a wheel tractor with blade to spread the fill.

Once you get into backhoes/macro,s and trucks costs really escalate.

If you make the sides 4to 1 camber a dozer or wheel tractor can walk the fill out of the excavation ,plus 4 to 1 is recommended to prevent erosion.

A test hole to check how far the clay actually goes down would be advisable, if you can get 2m and still be in the clay ,it should hold water extremely well.

[lannarebirth]

The guy I use is 7,500 baht/day and dumptruck is 2,000 baht/day(might be able to improve on the truck price. I imagine you'll need a backhoe and at least two trucks to haul the earth and probably a single big Ford tractor to spread it.

[jaideeguy]

I've seen and hired bulldozers before [but not in clay soil] and do think that all the work can be done with that one machine. Seems typical Thai thinking to use all that excess machinery [trucks, backhoes and trucks] when one good machine can do the trick [and a lot faster] . All the fill will go around the pond and extend less than 100meters.

Has anyone done it this way [with bulldozer] in clay soils???

[ozzydom]

I've seen and hired bulldozers before [but not in clay soil] and do think that all the work can be done with that one machine. Seems typical Thai thinking to use all that excess machinery [trucks, backhoes and trucks] when one good machine can do the trick [and a lot faster] . All the fill will go around the pond and extend less than 100meters.

Has anyone done it this way [with bulldozer] in clay soils???

The last 3 ponds we put in were all done with big Ford tractors only, the finished ponds were far superior to our originals dug with excavator and using dump trucks, plus at a fraction of the cost.

Problem we found was that excavators take out such big dobs of clay etc that cant be levelled and compacted properly so erosion and subsidence is a problem for a long time after.

We get our 1 rai x 1.7m deep dug for 10k.

when he gets into tougher going he just rips the base with 3 discs and away he goes again.

[jaideeguy]

OK, 10k....that's 1/10th of what i was estimating. Big Ford tractors with bucket or blade to push clay out?? you say 1.7 mtrs deep....from original ground level or new [higher ground level? Can go deeper??

[lannarebirth]

Each 1/2 cu (assuming the tractor can push that much) meter of soil is pushed to the other side of your land from inside a 2 rai sized hole? What's that, about 5,000 cu meters of earth? I think all of the equipment I mentioned, could probably do it in 2-3 days for 1/3 - 1/2 of your alloted budget.

Edited August 30, 2008 by lannarebirth

[joeuk1]

I've seen and hired bulldozers before [but not in clay soil] and do think that all the work can be done with that one machine. Seems typical Thai thinking to use all that excess machinery [trucks, backhoes and trucks] when one good machine can do the trick [and a lot faster] . All the fill will go around the pond and extend less than 100meters.

Has anyone done it this way [with bulldozer] in clay soils???

The last 3 ponds we put in were all done with big Ford tractors only, the finished ponds were far superior to our originals dug with excavator and using dump trucks, plus at a fraction of the cost.

Problem we found was that excavators take out such big dobs of clay etc that cant be levelled and compacted properly so erosion and subsidence is a problem for a long time after.

We get our 1 rai x 1.7m deep dug for 10k.

when he gets into tougher going he just rips the base with 3 discs and away he goes again.

1 rai x 1.7m deep 2720 cubic metres for 10k thats less than 4 bath a cubic metre.

Cost of diesel i think would be more than 10k to dig that pool and spread the soil .

How many days did it take to dig your pool and any photos please ?

Jb

[jaideeguy]

Yes, would appreciate fotos...especially construction shots.

The way that I figure it is the land area is 7 rai, pond is 2 rai [X2mtrs deep]...leaving 5 rai to fill with diggings from pond at 1/2 mt average height above existing rice fields....should guard against most flooding. Might have a few truckloads of locally available sandy soil hauled in and mixed to loosen up the clay soil for gardening.

[jaideeguy]

So, basically what I'm wondering is............ would a heaver track vehicle [buldozer] not get bogged down in the clay muck, or would a wheeled vehicle [large tractor] spin it's tires in the muck?? needless to say, I would schedule the job for the driest of times [march/april] to get my money's worth and speed up the job.

My clay soil is slipery and sticky when wet and hard as a rock when dry [on the surface].

I have had a well dug and it was clay all the way to 22mt, then hit sand/gravel.

[joeuk1]

So, basically what I'm wondering is............ would a heaver track vehicle [buldozer] not get bogged down in the clay muck, or would a wheeled vehicle [large tractor] spin it's tires in the muck?? needless to say, I would schedule the job for the driest of times [march/april] to get my money's worth and speed up the job.

My clay soil is slipery and sticky when wet and hard as a rock when dry [on the surface].

I have had a well dug and it was clay all the way to 22mt, then hit sand/gravel.

Here are 3 photos 2 of 10 rai lake that we have dug out and 1 photo of Klon being dug ....all soil used for landfill .

JB

[Maizefarmer]

Jaideeguy

As folk have said, either or can be used - tractor versus bulldozer versus bucket loader versus a digger - they all have advantages and disadvantages, to a large degree it comes down to the skill of the machine operator.

They'll all get stuck at some point, but tracks tend to be the last ones to get stuck.

If I was digging that hole, I'd personaly would use the tractor with a ripper to rip the soil in layers (only because I have a big tractor and a big ripper) - and get a guy with a big front end bucket (front end loader) to lift it all behind me. Then rip the next layer, lift it and on and on till it was down to the level I wanted. As for getting the base and slanted sides done (properly), well it can be done with any one of a number of tools - in Thailand the most common way is with a tracked digger with a trench scraper/cleaner bucket mounted on the arm.

Costs: anything bewteen Baht 7K and 10K per day is acceptable. I'd hunt around and get prices from as many diffeent guys as you can - especialy folk outside your area who have low bed loaders and can easily bring machines to you, and when you do settle on a price settle on a "all in job done/complete" price.

Make sure you communicate the spec to the contractor in detail and correctly - get it put on paper in Thai so there is no misunderstanding. How long it will take to do, when it will be finished, working hours per day - on paper.

Good luck

Lining the pond (?) - shouldn't be nessecceray if it's into clay and you have access to replacement water at a rate of I think it's 0,20% by volume per day multiplied by surface area - really just to compensate for evapouration and leakage (if you want to get into the density of clay we can, but 0,20% of volume x surface area tends to be fine anywhere in Thailand).

[jaideeguy]

"I'd personaly would use the tractor with a ripper to rip the soil in layers " ...........by tractor, you mean bulldozer?/ D-4 ok, as it seems that anything larger would be heavier and possibly get stuck.

and what would the maximum depth that I could get???? the deeper the better

Also read on another forum that applying [hydrated] lime on the floor does help with possible leakage and balancing of water ph...altho the klong water here seems nearly neutral in ph.

Thanks for the feedback.....

Edited September 3, 2008 by jaideeguy

[Maizefarmer]

"I'd personaly would use the tractor with a ripper to rip the soil in layers " ...........by tractor, you mean bulldozer?/ D-4 ok, as it seems that anything larger would be heavier and possibly get stuck.

and what would the maximum depth that I could get???? the deeper the better

Also read on another forum that applying [hydrated] lime on the floor does help with possible leakage and balancing of water ph...altho the klong water here seems nearly neutral in ph.

Thanks for the feedback.....

No - in that case I meant a tractor in the conventional farm tractor sense - the point being it would speed things up and save some money (if you have your own tractor). You could just as easily use a 4WD Ford 6610 or 7610 and then instead of 3 or 4 tines to rip with, take 2 off because of the reduced power avalibility, or rip to a lower depth on each pass if using 3 or 4 tines. If you had access to a D4 or D6 that would be fine and it would do the job just as good - if not better.

Depth per rip pass? With a Ford 6610/7610 with 2 tines I'd guess 18 - 24 inches per pass. With a D4 or D6 24 inches easily

Hydrated Lime? - yes it will help, but as your going to load the pond with fish you best read up on the impact (if any) it's going to have on the fish.

Essentialy you have 2 tasks Jaideeguy:

- loosen the soil

- dig it out.

Front end loaders are not efficient at digging, but if the soil hs been "ripped" and loosened, they will lift and move it in large quantities very quickly and efficiently - far quicker than a digger. Front end loader buckets are also very good at evening out slanted pond banks (because of their width) - as good as a digger with a trench cleaning bucket

[slapout]

Jaidee; The Cats and operators of same, who work the oil field on a regular basis would be a good place to start looking. The have the right size equipment for the job, are used to digging pits for mud systems and frac operations, and can build a level location for drilling rig. The good operators with a big cat, can level land with dirt from pit in probably 2 to 3 day from what you have described. If your not close to oil field types forget my post.

[farmerjo]

Its probably worth buying or seeing if they use a lazer level for finish.

I spent 160000 digging a 60x60x5mtr dam only to find when the back side was full the water had not reached the front edge so out with the wallet to get it redone again.

[ataloss]

If you have no need for the soil you excavate, or need only a portion of it, ask around your area. There are usually companies willing to excavate for free, given the right to sell the fill. You may also get them to offer an amount per truckload. The local Thai Govt may also need fill for roadworks. In my case, having spent 70K to deepen an area of half a rai with not much to show for it, a Thai company was called in. I let them have the fill (gravel-clay-sand) for free in exchange for a 10 meter deep resevoir. A thai friend said later that I should have charged them for the fill as well.

[Gary A]

Be very careful if you get a per day price. One of the locals here has two excavators. By the hour or day he sends out a piece of crap worn out machine. For a quoted job he sends out a much bigger machine that is in good condition. In any case many of the owners/operators are slippery characters. My pond ended up being two meters deep rather than three meters that it was supposed to be. He was able to BS my wife by telling her that it was impossible to go deeper because of hitting the water table and the machine could not dig deeper than two meters.