I Would Not Want To Have Just Invested In Property In Bangkok

[steveromagnino]

I struggled to find the right reply to the above comments and all I can simply say is you seem to have a bit of a problem. What is wrong with buying a 5mil property ? I am only 23 for christ sake, When was I talking about 4milUS$ property ??????? I am talking about condos that have prices that do not relate to the current politial and economical climate and you start going on about millions of $ investments and insulting me !

Ah well, 23 aye, well hopefully by the time you reach my age in another 12 years, you will have a better grasp of the english language and also of economics.

As for your comment calling me (and others) an idiot to buy any property at 100k per sqm..... the funny thing is the people doing so have a fair bit more cash than you.

Where do you think it came from?

I bet not from taking advice from 23 year olds LOL.

If you can't take it, then don't give it out. At least I didn't call you an idiot ;-)

[palm]

Zorro, mostly people lose property here from the arbitrary and constant changes in work permit and visa rules. There is the odd fraudulent situation where papers are not in order, forged, or other shenanigans. Occasionally they become uninhabitable from lack of maintenance.

Plenty of ways to lose ones investment here, and new ones being invented every day. As for actually losing a condo as in "dam_n where did I put that last night" it is pretty rare. I think that is more related to developers improperly gaining rights to land (as in Samui) or building incorrectly (as the ones out by MoChit that were too high) or overselling to farangs as the Pattaya group like to do on occasion.

My previous post was sarcastic somewhat and was hoping wrong turn would answer. changes to visas wouldn't have an impact on ownership if I'm reading you correctly the person is unable to stay but the property is still his allowing him/her to sell or rent. Lack of maintenance is a concern as it is in other countries same with fraud and building outside parameters. I really don't see it being that much different to anywhere else of course unless were talking land in the wife's name

You are correct, the problem being is that it can be challenging to sell property when you are in it, but when you are persona non grata I think it might be infinitely more challenging. Then the problem of getting the money out of the country, the paperwork, etc. Not something I would want to face. Hard enough to get things done when here.

Regards the fraud, in countries with the rule of law, you might have a fighting chance. Here, you have little to no chance of prevailing in the Judicial system. Way too many proofs of that theorem to even open that can of worms. It is frighteningly different than the west as is any third world country where the law is used more to control the population than to protect them. That is probably the hardest thing for expats to come to terms with, its so alien to our thought process and cultural assumptions. Its this environment that sustains the fraud and forgery.

So if you know all of this as fact, maybe you could list a few examples where a foreigner has lost a legally owned property here. i.e. a condo. Can you then give us the links on the internet to these cases, and where the court case was held etc.

Or if you have trouble finding a few examples, maybe you can list JUST ONE SINGLE CASE of this.

I own properties in a few countries, and the Thai legal system concerning legal ownership of property is no better or worse than in most other countries.

Edited September 2, 2008 by palm

[bkkjames]

Zorro, mostly people lose property here from the arbitrary and constant changes in work permit and visa rules. There is the odd fraudulent situation where papers are not in order, forged, or other shenanigans. Occasionally they become uninhabitable from lack of maintenance.

Plenty of ways to lose ones investment here, and new ones being invented every day. As for actually losing a condo as in "dam_n where did I put that last night" it is pretty rare. I think that is more related to developers improperly gaining rights to land (as in Samui) or building incorrectly (as the ones out by MoChit that were too high) or overselling to farangs as the Pattaya group like to do on occasion.

My previous post was sarcastic somewhat and was hoping wrong turn would answer. changes to visas wouldn't have an impact on ownership if I'm reading you correctly the person is unable to stay but the property is still his allowing him/her to sell or rent. Lack of maintenance is a concern as it is in other countries same with fraud and building outside parameters. I really don't see it being that much different to anywhere else of course unless were talking land in the wife's name

You are correct, the problem being is that it can be challenging to sell property when you are in it, but when you are persona non grata I think it might be infinitely more challenging. Then the problem of getting the money out of the country, the paperwork, etc. Not something I would want to face. Hard enough to get things done when here.

Regards the fraud, in countries with the rule of law, you might have a fighting chance. Here, you have little to no chance of prevailing in the Judicial system. Way too many proofs of that theorem to even open that can of worms. It is frighteningly different than the west as is any third world country where the law is used more to control the population than to protect them. That is probably the hardest thing for expats to come to terms with, its so alien to our thought process and cultural assumptions. Its this environment that sustains the fraud and forgery.

So if you know all of this as fact, maybe you could list a few examples where a foreigner has lost a legally owned property here. i.e. a condo. Can you then give us the links on the internet to these cases, and where the court case was held etc.

Or if you have trouble finding a few examples, maybe you can list JUST ONE SINGLE CASE of this.

I own properties in a few countries, and the Thai legal system concerning legal ownership of property is no better or worse than in most other countries.

Normally they don't lose it in the traditional sense. More oft they just go missing. Read between the lines if you have to.

[bravingbangkok]

I struggled to find the right reply to the above comments and all I can simply say is you seem to have a bit of a problem. What is wrong with buying a 5mil property ? I am only 23 for christ sake, When was I talking about 4milUS$ property ??????? I am talking about condos that have prices that do not relate to the current politial and economical climate and you start going on about millions of $ investments and insulting me !

Ah well, 23 aye, well hopefully by the time you reach my age in another 12 years, you will have a better grasp of the english language and also of economics.

As for your comment calling me (and others) an idiot to buy any property at 100k per sqm..... the funny thing is the people doing so have a fair bit more cash than you.

Where do you think it came from?

I bet not from taking advice from 23 year olds LOL.

If you can't take it, then don't give it out. At least I didn't call you an idiot ;-)

You just tried to belittle me so of course I am going to get angry. Saying that a 5million townhouse is a slum, Oh I am so sorry that we are not all as rich and powerful as you Mr Lord Of The Rings. IDIOT

Edited September 2, 2008 by bravingbangkok

[bravingbangkok]

I struggled to find the right reply to the above comments and all I can simply say is you seem to have a bit of a problem. What is wrong with buying a 5mil property ? I am only 23 for christ sake, When was I talking about 4milUS$ property ??????? I am talking about condos that have prices that do not relate to the current politial and economical climate and you start going on about millions of $ investments and insulting me !

Ah well, 23 aye, well hopefully by the time you reach my age in another 12 years, you will have a better grasp of the english language and also of economics.

As for your comment calling me (and others) an idiot to buy any property at 100k per sqm..... the funny thing is the people doing so have a fair bit more cash than you.

Where do you think it came from?

I bet not from taking advice from 23 year olds LOL.

If you can't take it, then don't give it out. At least I didn't call you an idiot ;-)

You just tried to belittle me so of course I am going to get angry. Saying that a 5million townhouse is a slum, Oh I am so sorry that we are not all as rich and powerful as you Mr Lord Of The Rings. IDIOT

You must be so big and powerful that you must know about buying shop contracts in Bangkok.......right ? Ever heard of anything like that ?

[steveromagnino]

You just tried to belittle me so of course I am going to get angry. Saying that a 5million townhouse is a slum, Oh I am so sorry that we are not all as rich and powerful as you Mr Lord Of The Rings. IDIOT

ah really.

So you didn't think it was going to make anyone angry when you called them an idiot for spending money you choose not to?

Twice now?

What's next, are you going to get at me for wearing a nice suit, driving a nice car, wearing a nice watch or purchasing from the sideline rather than the fishbowl?

LOTR aye.....well in that case call me Gandalf, I take it we've met before. You must be Gimli the dwarf

As for shop contracts; no idea what that is about; as I don't know anything about real estate.

Actually, I am just a freelance actor, and i do voice overs for commercials. I don't know much about anything. But I do like to wind you up :-)

Me ol' chum.

So shall we be best mates? I know Thaksin.

Edited September 2, 2008 by steveromagnino

[bravingbangkok]

You just tried to belittle me so of course I am going to get angry. Saying that a 5million townhouse is a slum, Oh I am so sorry that we are not all as rich and powerful as you Mr Lord Of The Rings. IDIOT

ah really.

So you didn't think it was going to make anyone angry when you called them an idiot for spending money you choose not to?

Twice now?

What's next, are you going to get at me for wearing a nice suit, driving a nice car, wearing a nice watch or purchasing from the sideline rather than the fishbowl?

LOTR aye.....well in that case call me Gandalf, I take it we've met before. You must be Gimli the dwarf

As for shop contracts; no idea what that is about; as I don't know anything about real estate.

Actually, I am just a freelance actor, and i do voice overs for commercials. I don't know much about anything. But I do like to wind you up :-)

Me ol' chum.

So shall we be best mates? I know Thaksin.

[bkkjames]

R U TWO DONE YET?

[steveromagnino]

R U TWO DONE YET?

shall we get a room mate?

you join in on some spit roast action :-)

BKKJames, it is quality posts and subjects like this that have the Thaivisa masses glued to their seats. Will there be another reference to idiots? What is a shop contract? Who is Ron Bicardi?

I tell you this mate, when all is said and done, you'll not be sorry to have read through 2 pages of posts about such a fine subject as this.

Edited September 2, 2008 by steveromagnino

[bravingbangkok]

R U TWO DONE YET?

shall we get a room mate?

you join in on some spit roast action :-)

BKKJames, it is quality posts and subjects like this that have the Thaivisa masses glued to their seats. Will there be another reference to idiots? What is a shop contract? Who is Ron Bicardi?

I tell you this mate, when all is said and done, you'll not be sorry to have read through 2 pages of posts about such a fine subject as this.

Northern humour.......best in the world !

[bkkjames]

You are right there stevie, enlightening stuff from both of you. suggest you continue it on the real estate forum, yes we have one on TV. Didn't I see you there before?

[steveromagnino]

You are right there stevie, enlightening stuff from both of you. suggest you continue it on the real estate forum, yes we have one on TV. Didn't I see you there before?

er.... that weren't me, you canne prove a thing.

Och aye the new.

I sadly know nothing of real estate, I am really good looking yet foolish.

Some call me the Thai Paris Hilton, but without the brains.

Edited September 2, 2008 by steveromagnino

[bravingbangkok]

You are right there stevie, enlightening stuff from both of you. suggest you continue it on the real estate forum, yes we have one on TV. Didn't I see you there before?

er.... that weren't me, you canne prove a thing.

Och aye the new.

I sadly know nothing of real estate, I am really good looking yet foolish.

Some call me the Thai Paris Hilton, but without the brains.

Na thats Tata youngs job

[steveromagnino]

Some call me the Thai Paris Hilton, but without the brains.

Na thats Tata youngs job

That is a classic line mate ;-)

I knew her before the boob job when she was with Un (Oliver) and she wasn't exactly smart then.

What is it about siliclone, somehow it makes intelligent women more titzy, and very 'mai tem baht' women even more stupid?

Thank goodness for saline :-)

[Pushit]

No facts needed James just common sense. At the rates they are charging some and I do mean some of the condos are priced the same as the same sized condos/apartments in London ! Hows that ? Thailand is not a big economy and the only reason property prices have risen dramatically is because of greedy development firms cashing in while the property market is shit in the west. In Thailand you get what you can when you can, you live for the day not the years to come. I was once told a very wise thing by one of my Thai friends

"When in doubt do what the Thais are doing"

Most buildings with Thai/farang quotas have not filled the Thai quota. I wonder why ???????

"When in doubt do what the Thais are doing"

Townhouses are hot and being snapped up.

[bravingbangkok]

Some call me the Thai Paris Hilton, but without the brains.

Na thats Tata youngs job

That is a classic line mate ;-)

I knew her before the boob job when she was with Un (Oliver) and she wasn't exactly smart then.

What is it about siliclone, somehow it makes intelligent women more titzy, and very 'mai tem baht' women even more stupid?

Thank goodness for saline :-)

Thought you would like that one

[wintermute]

It's very simple to do the math and figure out whether you should buy or rent in any given city. Just look at the rental rate and compare it to the cost of the unit would be if you bought it. Then do a little bit of thinking about how long you would theoretically stay in Thailand. I forgot where I saw the stats but the average repeat expat or "long" stay expat is only here for 10 years on average.

It's all common sense. There's a pretty big disconnect between rental prices in Bangkok versus unit costs. The unit costs are pretty inflated. I'm not even factoring in building quality, longevity, management, etc.. which except for a few top tier property firms are likely sub par compared with western markets.

Edited September 2, 2008 by wintermute

[zorro1]

The figures are a bit skewed. Most of non company owned R/E that's rented is Non declared to Thai Tax dept including capitol gains

[Heng]

Nothing wrong (that anyone will be able to prove) with that.

[jdinasia]

No facts needed James just common sense.

"When in doubt do what the Thais are doing"

Most buildings with Thai/farang quotas have not filled the Thai quota. I wonder why ???????

Most buildings? that would be ALL condo buildings? Common sense? LOL You really should come and live here before making up nonsense

[yabaaaa]

You are an idiot if you bought property in the last 2 years in Bangkok, get out now ! 100 000 up oer sq m has no relation to the Thai econmy or current unstable position, yes you have been mugged !

Ok I'm an idiot and while I collect the rent from all my condos at over 12% ROI i'll think about what you said.

Ok finished thinking, there that didn't take long now did it?

23 eh.... hmmmm i think you have a lot to learn yet.

[yabaaaa]

It's very simple to do the math and figure out whether you should buy or rent in any given city. Just look at the rental rate and compare it to the cost of the unit would be if you bought it. Then do a little bit of thinking about how long you would theoretically stay in Thailand. I forgot where I saw the stats but the average repeat expat or "long" stay expat is only here for 10 years on average.

It's all common sense. There's a pretty big disconnect between rental prices in Bangkok versus unit costs. The unit costs are pretty inflated. I'm not even factoring in building quality, longevity, management, etc.. which except for a few top tier property firms are likely sub par compared with western markets.

But not on all developments and this is what many here need to realise, you can make a good roi on "some" developments without too much trouble.

[bravingbangkok]

No facts needed James just common sense.

"When in doubt do what the Thais are doing"

Most buildings with Thai/farang quotas have not filled the Thai quota. I wonder why ???????

Most buildings? that would be ALL condo buildings? Common sense? LOL You really should come and live here before making up nonsense

I do live here !

[bravingbangkok]

It's very simple to do the math and figure out whether you should buy or rent in any given city. Just look at the rental rate and compare it to the cost of the unit would be if you bought it. Then do a little bit of thinking about how long you would theoretically stay in Thailand. I forgot where I saw the stats but the average repeat expat or "long" stay expat is only here for 10 years on average.

It's all common sense. There's a pretty big disconnect between rental prices in Bangkok versus unit costs. The unit costs are pretty inflated. I'm not even factoring in building quality, longevity, management, etc.. which except for a few top tier property firms are likely sub par compared with western markets.

But not on all developments and this is what many here need to realise, you can make a good roi on "some" developments without too much trouble.

Maybe I was being a bit vague, I was mainly targeting these new high end condos which seem to be way overpriced. You have a fair point at 12% ROI which is very good, You are obviously not paying any interest to any sort of creditor but a lot of people are and that is what will cause problems and is indeed idiotic. What were you doing Yabaaaa when you were 23 then ?

[yabaaaa]

It's very simple to do the math and figure out whether you should buy or rent in any given city. Just look at the rental rate and compare it to the cost of the unit would be if you bought it. Then do a little bit of thinking about how long you would theoretically stay in Thailand. I forgot where I saw the stats but the average repeat expat or "long" stay expat is only here for 10 years on average.

It's all common sense. There's a pretty big disconnect between rental prices in Bangkok versus unit costs. The unit costs are pretty inflated. I'm not even factoring in building quality, longevity, management, etc.. which except for a few top tier property firms are likely sub par compared with western markets.

But not on all developments and this is what many here need to realise, you can make a good roi on "some" developments without too much trouble.

Maybe I was being a bit vague, I was mainly targeting these new high end condos which seem to be way overpriced. You have a fair point at 12% ROI which is very good, You are obviously not paying any interest to any sort of creditor but a lot of people are and that is what will cause problems and is indeed idiotic. What were you doing Yabaaaa when you were 23 then ?

23 racks brain???? erm blatting down roads on my new Suzuki gsx 750esd and starting my business , planning my life....... still planning it at 44???????? getting there now though. You will think totally differently when you get older..... trust me on this one.

High end condos stupid prices certain developers excellent LPN is one.

[jdinasia]

No facts needed James just common sense.

"When in doubt do what the Thais are doing"

Most buildings with Thai/farang quotas have not filled the Thai quota. I wonder why ???????

Most buildings? that would be ALL condo buildings? Common sense? LOL You really should come and live here before making up nonsense

I do live here !

Then you can explain "most buildings" and your common sense (that you are obviously missing) comments

But I guess you missed the boat

[LooseCannon]

It applies here just like anywhere else, but here it's limited to locals and to a lesser extent foreigners who happen to have solid relationships with their local spouses (funny how people like to gloss over this one by blaming the legal system instead of their own house- of-cards type relationships), and of course foreigners with solid corporate foundations.

Truer words were never spoken.

This website is littered with comments from an endless stream of clowns escaping failed relationships in the west, & having lost their house once, proceed to repeat the same mistake again. If people continue to make poor decisions when choosing a mate, it does not matter which country in the world they reside in, they will lose 'their' property.

[Valjean]

On the issue of economics I'll challenge the statement that it's doing poorly. True enough it's not as strong as peers - but still solid growth and underlying factors. Attached is some updated data. Slide 8 has the GDP data.

I also listened to an hour talk from the VP Research at Bangkok Bank the other day. He had some interesting data comparing developed versus emerging economies – and emerging Asia versus other. He made the case that Asia will grow faster than the rest of the world and Thailand while perhaps a laggard within this group will outperform both developed and non-Asian economic growth. He had a lot of interesting data on consumer spending, loan ratios and the like and his conclusion was a pick up in growth political situation notwithstanding.

Clearly the politics knocks a point or so off GNP and isn’t helping with international investor confidence. But look around; Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam. Pakistan – if you’re investing or doing business in Asia you’ve got to accept some level of political uncertainly. I was meeting with someone from Philippines yesterday and he was chuckling about the situation which is quite normal there. It good to take some long term perspective about these things – it will sort itself out and Thailand will be better because of it.

An oh, I couldn’t be happier with the house we bought in Bangkok. I assume it will increase in value in the long term but for now it’s my home and I love coming home at the end of the day to it. That alone justifies the investment to me.

080829_MECE.pdf

[LaoPo]

Yeah, my observation as well. Many are buying and many are selling (it's about 50-50... funny how that works out), but the # of transactions seems to be going up.

There's blood on the street now, so everyone should draw their own conclusions as to what they should be doing.

:D

Isn't that strange ?; it's the same in my own country....50-50. On a more serious note: the # of transactions in both Europe and the USA is dramatically DOWN...not UP.

LaoPo

Edited September 3, 2008 by LaoPo

[Wrong Turn]

You are an idiot if you bought property in the last 2 years in Bangkok, get out now ! 100 000 up oer sq m has no relation to the Thai econmy or current unstable position, yes you have been mugged !

Ok I'm an idiot and while I collect the rent from all my condos at over 12% ROI i'll think about what you said.

Ok finished thinking, there that didn't take long now did it?

23 eh.... hmmmm i think you have a lot to learn yet.

Even though I advised against buying to *live* in a condo, investing in them is different.

Every deal is different. yabaaa is getting positive cash flow. Owner-occupied and positive cash flow from rentals are two different things.