Praying To Buddha

[Neeranam]

I am no expert by all means on Buddhism. I see many people praying to Buddha, or at least I think that is what they are doing.

My main question is, can you pray to Lord Buddha?

Can Buddha intervene divinely?

Can you be protected by certain rituals?

When you pray to Buddha, what do you say, or ask for?

Where doe Phra Pee Ganet(Ganeshji) come into things from a Buddhist point of view?

[sabaijai]

My main question is, can you pray to Lord Buddha?

In Mahayana Buddhism it is widely believed that there is a Buddha out there somewhere that you can pray to. This is generally not a Theravada belief, despite which many Thais who would otherwise call themselves Theravada Buddhists follow the Mahayana lead on this.

If you were to ask a Thai Buddhist scholar this question, most (perhaps all?) would answer "no".

Can Buddha intervene divinely?

Can you be protected by certain rituals?

Same answer as above, more or less. 'Folk' Buddhism believes in ritual and divine intervention, 'academic' Buddhism does not.

When you pray to Buddha, what do you say, or ask for?

For those who believe in this sort of thing, I suppose it depends on what you hope to get out of it.

I don't think you can assume that everyone who is kneeling before a Buddha image, incense sticks between their palms, is praying directly to Buddha for a favour. Some are merely repeating Buddhist verses meant as affirmations (i.e., to remind one's self of the virtues of the Buddhist teaching).

Where doe Phra Pee Ganet(Ganeshji) come into things from a Buddhist point of view?

Ganesh is a Hindu deity, son of Shiva, believed to be a remover of obstacles for those who worship him. Because Brahmanism was in Thailand before and/or simultaneously with the early Buddhist epoch here, many Hindu traditions have crept into spiritual practices here, for better or worse.

[Neeranam]

Thanks for that Sabaijai.

Clears a few things up.

QUOTE

When you pray to Buddha, what do you say, or ask for?

For those who believe in this sort of thing, I suppose it depends on what you hope to get out of it.

I don't think you can assume that everyone who is kneeling before a Buddha image, incense sticks between their palms, is praying directly to Buddha for a favour. Some are merely repeating Buddhist verses meant as affirmations (i.e., to remind one's self of the virtues of the Buddhist teaching).

That makes sense.

I stayed in a retreat in Darmasala, where HH the Dalai Lama stays, and studied a bit of that branch of Buddhism. It is, indeed very different to what I learned in Chaiya where Buddathassa Bikkhu taught. Although this was 11/12 years ago, and my memory fails me, I am trying to get back into the Buddha's teachings.

Ganesh is "used" by me to remove obstacles, as you said. I am not sure whether to call myself a Buddhist or a Hindu, not that it matters.

I believe in Lord Shiva and many Hindu beliefs as well as some of the Buddha's teachings , as I perceive them.

Om Nama Shivaya

Om mani padme hum

etc

[cdnvic]

Even within the mahanyana there is a wide gulf between sects on this. Shin (aka Pure Land) and Zen are good examples of this. Shin is much like christianity as it revolves around salvation by faith and prayer, seeing nirvana as "heaven" (The pure land). Zen, being alot less mystical in approach makes more emphisis on disipline and meditation and much less on what they consider frivolities.

I am no expert by all means on Buddhism. I see many people praying to Buddha, or at least I think that is what they are doing.

My main question is, can you pray to Lord Buddha?

Can Buddha intervene divinely?

Can you be protected by certain rituals?

When you pray to Buddha, what do you say, or ask for?

Where doe Phra Pee Ganet(Ganeshji) come into things from a Buddhist point of view?

[Neeranam]

I like the saying, " Religion is for those who don't want to go to ######, Spirituality is for those who have already been"

[Darknight]

Thanks for that Sabaijai.

Clears a few things up.

QUOTE

When you pray to Buddha, what do you say, or ask for?

For those who believe in this sort of thing, I suppose it depends on what you hope to get out of it.

I don't think you can assume that everyone who is kneeling before a Buddha image, incense sticks between their palms, is praying directly to Buddha for a favour. Some are merely repeating Buddhist verses meant as affirmations (i.e., to remind one's self of the virtues of the Buddhist teaching).

That makes sense.

I stayed in a retreat in Darmasala, where HH the Dalai Lama stays, and studied a bit of that branch of Buddhism. It is, indeed very different to what I learned in Chaiya where Buddathassa Bikkhu taught. Although this was 11/12 years ago, and my memory fails me, I am trying to get back into the Buddha's teachings.

Ganesh is "used" by me to remove obstacles, as you said. I am not sure whether to call myself a Buddhist or a Hindu, not that it matters.

I believe in Lord Shiva and many Hindu beliefs as well as some of the Buddha's teachings , as I perceive them.

Om Nama Shivaya

Om mani padme hum

etc

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I see it they were all originally 'Philosophies' that were later degenerated into religions.

For me, it is one thing to have a Philosophy of Life and quite something different to hold a religious belief system.

I fail to see that Buddha, Shiva, Jesus or any other great philosopher would want to see billions of dollars spent on temples, shrines, monastaries, idols in pure gold etc. etc. etc. while people in the world starve to death and suffer 'curable' fatal diseases.

To my mind all religion is a great hypocricy. A monsterous money and power machine.

What do people do when they pray... they talk to themselves, they try to reasure themselves and give themselves comfort in the belief of some diety or other power higher than themselves...

To read the words of Buddha or the words of Jesus is a fine and noble thing... so long as it is read as a philosophy and not a blind faith religion. Buddah did not raise a mighty gold temple, he sat quietly under a simple tree... surely this is the message in itself. Jesus did very similar simple things... The Church of England had so much money they invest in the stock market... and is the largest land owner in the UK... the Vatican cannot even calculate how much wealth it has... and so on and so on... I for one, think that wealth could be put to a much greater cause and I think that Buddah and Jesus and Mohammed and Shiva and all the rest would agree with me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree fully ravisher ....

[DeDanan]

My understanding of Buddhist teaching is that Buddha is not a “God” and has no Devine powers that can change the course of our lives.

When I wai to a Buddha image or burn incense at a shrine it is out of respect for a “wise man / teacher” it also serves to remind me of his teachings, in particular the teachings on impermanence. As a ex Christian I am tempted from time to time to ask for favours, it would be “nice” to think that some Devine being could at a whim correct all the worlds ill’s. But…..

My TG does ask Kuan Yin for assistance in her life…. It has not helped our visa applications!!!

Have a Happy…

DeDanan.

[toastwars]

Praying To Buddha, Who does it and why?

Buddhists. dummy.

[sabaijai]

I like the  saying, " Religion is for those who don't want to go to ######, Spirituality is for those who have already been"

Good one.

[Suthep_Steve]

No one can do it for you but you cannot do it alone.

I beg you all to reconsider.

Are Buddhas omniscient, do they know all objects of knowledge past present and future?

What is a Buddhas ultimate nature?

Are Buddhas' bodies the same nature as their minds?

Does meditating in the presence of a holy person help you or have no effect?

I'm not saying there is a Buddha out there waiting to be discovered but is there really a mind searching for Buddha either?

Again I beg you please think again, in my humble and not very worthy opinion you are missing something of vital importance.

Much love

ss

[cdnvic]

No one knows for certain until they become a buddha. It's a philosophy/religion so diverse in ritual, language, and scripture that there is really no way to pin it down to a simple rule that covers all of buddhism. All you can do is ask yourself what you truly believe. For example, here's how I personally see it:

- Guatama The Buddha was a great man, but only one of perhaps many buddahs, and he is long dead. I do greatly respect the teachings he gave, or at least what he apparently did according to anecdotal folklore, but beyond reading and considering these teachings, some which I see as flawed, he cannot physicly help me or affect me in any way. This is similar to how I view the wisdom I have learned from a long dead relative, as the knowlage imparted from them assists my daily life, but they personally do not.

- I have a buddha figure in my living room. I burn incense on it, I meditate in front of it, but other than its usefulness as a point of focus, art object, and reminder of my beliefs, its just a few pounds of carved stone, not a holy artifact. I would feel silly 'praying' to it.

I'm certain that people sometimes have a need for the comfort of rituals such as prayer. I'll admit when I see the in-laws pray in front of a buddha I sometimes feel like I'm missing something.

cv

No one can do it for you but you cannot do it alone.

I beg you all to reconsider.

Are Buddhas omniscient, do they know all objects of knowledge past present and future?

What is a Buddhas ultimate nature?

Are Buddhas' bodies the same nature as their minds?

Does meditating in the presence of a holy person help you or have no effect?

I'm not saying there is a Buddha out there waiting to be discovered but is there really a mind searching for Buddha either?

Again I beg you please think again, in my humble and not very worthy opinion you are missing something of vital importance.

Much love

ss

[rod_kalashnikov]

 

[aiyajojo]

some people want to believe to reassure themselves..as one posted before me...

i think its all right for somebody to believe or not, but really depending on their reason behind it. of all the gods that people believe in, are there scientific explanations of their spirits or prescence? scientists can reach the farthest stars in the galaxy but do they have evidence of such existance?

others believe or follow from their parents, not even knowing why they do it (i can say this because i have met people my age and younger) followers...who is the leader? people from england, just spread the christian religion, mixes the other culture, becomes confusing now that there are multiDIFFERENTgods in this world...

i just think we should act like humans, dont do bad things, there is no he11 no heaven. there is an outer atmosphere where there is not oxygen. it is dark and cold. the inner side of the earth...only mantle, and other layers until the core, warm ...thats all. i wonder why people thing up is good and down is bad now. it should be the other way around. we come and go, new beings are born, cycle continous. just care for each other and be happy you were created by natural formation of CELL GROWTH

Edited December 19, 2004 by aiyajojo

[cdnvic]

there is no he11 no heaven.

This cannot be proved, neither have scientists reached the furthest stars. They have 8 billion year old images.

we come and go, new beings are born, cycle continous. just care for each other and be happy

You've just summed up what I believe the teachings of the Dhama are all about.

you were created by natural formation of CELL GROWTH

Yes, as was bactieria, but its up to us to move beyond that.

cv

P.S. I'm a science geek, and believe that it can coexist with buddhism, so don't engage me in a science vs religion debate.

[Darknight]

there is no he11 no heaven.

This cannot be proved, neither have scientists reached the furthest stars. They have 8 billion year old images.

we come and go, new beings are born, cycle continous. just care for each other and be happy

You've just summed up what I believe the teachings of the Dhama are all about.

you were created by natural formation of CELL GROWTH

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, as was bactieria, but its up to us to move beyond that.

cv

P.S. I'm a science geek, and believe that it can coexist with buddhism, so don't engage me in a science vs religion debate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I saw recently a documentary of an English/indian Scientist in Physics who came to buddhism through Physics via Chaos Theory and quantum mechanics and found a remarkable number of similarities between the science and the dhamma

[camerata]

The Creator/s we will never know. And then there is the ultimate question... Who or what created the Creator/s. This is beyong any human or scientific comprehension.

Non-divine creators was pretty much the main proposition of Carl Sagan's book, Contact.

[penelope]

some people want to believe to reassure themselves..as one posted before me...

i think its all right for somebody to believe or not, but really depending on their reason behind it. of all the gods that people believe in, are there scientific explanations of their spirits or prescence?  scientists can reach the farthest stars in the galaxy but do they have evidence of such existance?

others believe or follow from their parents, not even knowing why they do it (i can say this because i have met people my age and younger) followers...who is the leader? people from england, just spread the christian religion, mixes the other culture, becomes confusing now that there are multiDIFFERENTgods in this world...

i just think we should act like humans, dont do bad things, there is no he11 no heaven.  there is an outer atmosphere where there is not oxygen.  it is dark and cold.  the inner side of the earth...only mantle, and other layers until the core, warm ...thats all. i wonder why people thing up is good and down is bad now.  it should be the other way around. we come and go, new beings are born, cycle continous. just care for each other and be happy you were created by natural formation of CELL GROWTH

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't worship anything,however I have a deep, unwaivering respect for the forces of nature.

[shemmy]

I like the  saying, " Religion is for those who don't want to go to ######, Spirituality is for those who have already been"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya I take my religion every morning ,,with a pinch of salt..........keeps me regular!!!!

[sabaijai]

The existence of things is not in dispute.

It is the manner in which they exist that must be clarified.

Dalai Lama XIV

[booma]

Where doe Phra Pee Ganet(Ganeshji) come into things from a Buddhist point of view?

Ganesh is a Hindu deity, son of Shiva, believed to be a remover of obstacles for those who worship him. Because Brahmanism was in Thailand before and/or simultaneously with the early Buddhist epoch here, many Hindu traditions have crept into spiritual practices here, for better or worse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Isn't Ganesh supposed to be good for prosperity, they have is image outside the world trade centre after all?

[Neeranam]

Yes Sri Ganesh is good for prosperity, if you are a Hindu.

[meadish_sweetball]

Ravisher, I agree with your points about the problem of organized mass religions and the greed/power/mind control issues that arise with them as opposed to "original" teachings (note the quotation marks around original).

I reacted to another thing you wrote though - surely Shiva is not a historical person comparable to Jesus, Siddharta Gautama or Muhammad, he is a Hindu deity?

[Abandon]

All the Buddha's, Jesus's, Khali's, Satan's, Mohmed's and Alah's of this world are just men with a philosohpy of how we humans should behave. Nothing more, nothing less

Well this could be true. But it's not the position of Buddhists. How to behave is just one element of Buddhism (sila).

The Buddha attained to Enlightenment - a knowledge and vision far beyond the ordinary, the Summom Bonum of life, and it yeilded a 'state' that is beyond suffering, and beyond the cycle of birth and death. His teaching was not an attempt to describe this, but an attempt to decribe the way in which others too could follow and attain to the same 'unconditioned' truth. His teaching said that this truth actually is there, is real, no matter if there are people in the world who know it or not. So it is not just a relative truth.

Morality, how to behave, is just a pre-cursor of this path - it clears the mind, and aids concentration and meditation, which are the means to attaining to enlightenment for oneself. (it also ensures that one does not fall into rebirth in states where the practise of Dhamma is not feasible).

Besides - Satan - just a man with a philosophy of how we should behave. ???

Then again, I am just a hip neo-Buddhist. Well, I am rather hip....

[meadish_sweetball]

Hip, and Evil.

[Abandon]

Evil? Who me?

he he

[aaaaaa]

Yes Sri Ganesh is good for prosperity, if you are a Hindu.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and if you are not Hindu - then Ganesh isn't good or what? he helps only Hindus to prosper?

BTW - Ganesha never called as God in sanskrit - but addressed as "deva" or "devata" - demigod. one of reasons why many think "Hinduism" is undefinable blend of politheistic beliefs - because even "Hindus" themselves think that there are many "Gods". which contradicts the obvious and simple meaning behind the word God....

Hinduism - there is no actually such a religion, although it is considered as one of the few mainstream religions in the world - because it's never been mentioned in any authentic scriptures "Hindus" rely on. term was imposed by Moghuls and later adopted by Brits who ruled India... eventually people there got so used to it that now they don't even try to quetsion its meaning - although no any scholar or pandit or guru can define it properly and clearly - simply becuase it is impossible to define what doesn't exist. or those who know the meaning - they don't bother either, it is easier to follow the trend. that is why "Hinduism" became sort of stereotyped with / synonimous to hodge-podge blend of all sorts of beliefs ...

Buddhism - "hidden" atheism acording to learned pundits and not considered as real religion at all - because there is no concept of God or even soul there. topmost level is - mind and ultimate goal - nirvana or "nothingness" .... that's why it became so popular in modern world - for its concept that in the end there is nothing .... so, booze around, drink and be merry - after all it is nothing, right? very convinient - can justify any sort of actions... well, there are a lot of philosophical similarities in Buddhism with "Hinduism" - up to the level of "self" where buddhism ends.... main purpose of Buddhims religion and philosophy was - to counteract the poisonous philosophy of impersonalism which dominated minds those times AND to stop the violence it condoned - mass slaughter of animals under name of religeous sacrifices, which have gone out of control and reason and lost meaning almost entirely.... but nowdays this important principle is almost forgotten - non-violence or "ahimsa" .... only mahayana buddhists follow it, also to some extent - theravada buddhists (like here in Thailand, Tibet and few more places) don't bother. fuitive activities are more important than non-violenve....

and about religion in general - nowdays it becomes more and more synonimous to institutional or organasational propaganda rather than real spiritual enlightening for followers. the problem is - in understanding real meaning of religion. "religions without philosophy is sentimentalism and often fanatisism (fundamentalism) - and philosophy without religion is merely dry mental speculations". religion deals with "methaphisical" knowledge -well, suppose to deal - opposite to empirical (obtained thru direct sense perception). such knowledge is very subtle or esoteric. that's why gives more opportunities for unscrupulous people to use it for their own benefits - manipulate / twist/ misinterpret etc. the real teachings of particular religion. especially during last few centuries with developement of science (empirical knowledge) - many facts about misuse of religion were exposed and that's why Marx had hit the point - that religion became like an opiate for masses.... but there are many other such opiates for masses nowdays, right? list can be long...

for most of people who don't bother to know the meaning of words (as in almost any other area of current important issues of our modern world) - religion usually is sort of faith / belief only. and in such course of understanding - virually anything can be called as religion - you name it! even science - it became also sort of religion, very powefull in fact - much misleading opiate then all religions together. or many other popular cliches: "democrasy", "justice", "freedom" etc. oh, and BTW - atheism is also just one of such religions or mere belif.

most popular trend nowdays is what I call as "escapism" - person's attempt to find cause of / solutions for one's problems in life in external or "outside" world (opposite to internal or "inside" ourselves). be it whatever - religion or atheism. people are trying to look for answers elsewhere, doesn't realy matter where : religion (directing one's love and devotion to and trying to please God or towards some other high/ sublime levels) or hedonism (pursuing only sense pleasures and everything related / helpfull for that and making it as goal of life).

hedonism

and anyway sooner or later all religions slide into one or other form of hedonism - into prefomance / practice of religious rituals mostly if not entirely only for the sake of improving once material position and obtaining whatever benefits or divine blessing for ... more sense pleasures. (just lok closer at the motivation of the rituals performed, especialy here in asia)

that is the main problem - why most of religions deteriorate eventually. because followers have strong tendency to adjust their religion to more suiting ways - relaxed and easier to follow which is simply changing the direction back towards sense enjoyments or same good old hedonims (or whatever new terms might be invented).... basically, they mix together two opposite things - and mixture becomes even more hedonistic then pure hedonism itself and takes very ugly forms - providing more reasons for non-belivers to despise religion and belivers and to remain as atheists or who knows what....

that's why many real genuine religeious leaders nowdays stress the importance of spirituality rather than religeosity.

I'd simply define religion as - method of spiritual practice or one of paths to enlightment / sublimation/ spiritual progress or evolution of living being. if it seizes to be such - it becomes one of many other "beliefs" or "opiates" for masses.

Edited February 23, 2005 by aaaaaa

[Neeranam]

Intresting read "aaaaaaaaa".

and if you are not Hindu - then Ganesh isn't good or what?  he helps only Hindus to prosper?

Good question. I don't know the answer.

What religion are you?

[drummer]

Buddhism - "hidden" atheism acording to learned pundits and not considered as real religion at all - because there is no concept of God or even soul there. topmost level is  - mind and ultimate goal - nirvana or "nothingness" .... that's why it became so popular in modern world - for its concept that in the end there is nothing .... so, booze around, drink and be merry - after all it is nothing, right? very convinient - can justify any sort of actions....

I think you are mixing in existentialism here - Existentialism states that there is no god (not one thats going to intervene or has a plan, anyway) and is used to justify boozing it up and to counter imperialism... I haven't seen nor heard of Buddhism achieving that end in any meaningful capacity... Not to mean that it hasn't or can't, though. As I nuderstand it, there isa concept of soul, although not the same as in Western thought.

For me, at least, there are 2 reasons its pupolar. First is it's compatability with scientific thought. I am a strong believer in the scietific philosophy, (what I consider to be the philosophy of the practical)

The second reason, is that many of the litle observations I have made, on my own, about myself, people in general, and life, I have found mirrored in Buddhist philosophy. Enough to make me sit up and take notice. I do not consider myself a Buddhist, although I am an 'interested party'.

particular religion. especially during last few centuries with developement of science (empirical knowledge) - many facts about misuse of religion were exposed and that's why Marx had hit the point - that religion became like an opiate for masses.... but there are many other such opiates for masses nowdays, right? list can be long...

I'm pretty sure that religions "back in tha' day" did exactly te same thing. Ecept that it was easier back then, I reckon' Just because Science showed what the religions were doing doesn't change what they were doing before.

BTW - atheism is also just one of such religions or mere belif.

I'm an athiest and I agree it is just another mere belief. Of course, what isn't, really a mere belief? You seem to be quickly approaching a nihilist conclusion...

most popular trend nowdays is what I call as "escapism" - person's attempt to find cause of / solutions for one's problems in life in external or "outside" world

I don't believe for a moment that 'nowadays' is any different than 'back in tha' day' in that respect. I also think that there has always been the tendency to abuse power, and organized religion cerainly has power.

  that is the main problem  - why most of religions deteriorate eventually. because followers have strong tendency to adjust their religion to more suiting ways - relaxed and easier to follow

I wouldn't exactly say easier to follow, but maybe easier to understand. many religions gradually require a lot more effort, but less thinking... But again, I do not think that "today" is any different than yesterday, last year, last millenium etc.

Edited April 1, 2005 by drummer

[drummer]

QUOTE

and if you are not Hindu - then Ganesh isn't good or what? he helps only Hindus to prosper?

He doesn't help because you don't believe if you are not a Hindu. i'm pretty sure he's a personality more than a force of nature.