Thai Army Disobeys Pm's Orders

[dominique355]

Could you really imagine what a predicament the country would be in if the military blindly followed the orders of some of the lunatics in charge of this place just because 15,000,000 out of 65,000,000 voted for them?

<deleted> - For starters these clowns have no clue about managing the economy let alone international relations, human rites issues etc. Who in their right mind would give an incompetant something with which to hurt himself or others?

It is almost akin to handing a loaded gun to a deranged sociopath.

Best left as General Prem put it a few years ago.

A good one, Soundman, "Human rites and rituals", such as dancing around the golden calf.

But indeed, the Military, no matter where, have no clue about human rights. As a famous quote goes: "We defend democracy, we don't practice it."

[SiriusBlack1]

According to the TV news reports, these demonstrators have been found with knives, machetes and even firearms.

The fact that many of them are women is immaterial.

I take H90's point that he knows middle-class people (what's that in Thailand?) who are not paid to be there. But I suspect a lot of them are. No, I guess I can't prove it. But I think it will come out in the wash.

where did you read about the firearms?

Saw the firearms on Thai-language TV.

Here also is the Economist, this week:

"The protesters have a variety of weapons and have been whipped up by Demagogues."

[Siripon]

Oh -- and yes I agree with others who say this is a good report. Once again, it's the foreign media leading the real debate about what's really going on here. Notice how PAD and Sondhi have their minions running around with anti-BBC posters and anti-foreign media banners? Interesting.

What are you talking about? The Thai press, more than TV, report and speculate on every aspect of the current standoff.

[Bruce1]

I think the lack of comment from you know who is very interesting and, I assume, implies a refusal to favour either side in this.

I also think the Army chief is to be commended for keeping the troops in the barracks. Why should the Army intervene every time a politician becomes unpopular?

I hope neither the current government nor the PAD win this confrontation as neither seems very democratic. Maybe this confrontation will cause both to become discredited.

Best result would be fresh elections. Hopefully the Samak Govt debacle would cause more people to vote for other parties.

Surely its about time to give the actual Opposition, whichis not the PAD but the Democrats, a chance to show what they can do. They could hardly do a worse job.

[Chang_paarp]

I think the lack of comment from you know who is very interesting and, I assume, implies a refusal to favour either side in this.

I also think the Army chief is to be commended for keeping the troops in the barracks. Why should the Army intervene every time a politician becomes unpopular?

I hope neither the current government nor the PAD win this confrontation as neither seems very democratic. Maybe this confrontation will cause both to become discredited.

Best result would be fresh elections. Hopefully the Samak Govt debacle would cause more people to vote for other parties.

Surely its about time to give the actual Opposition, whichis not the PAD but the Democrats, a chance to show what they can do. They could hardly do a worse job.

The trouble is the choice of parties....

PPP/TRT current major party, bank rolled by Takky

Peun Thai, same as above, but no seats currently, back-up for when PPP gets the bullet in the court.

Chart Thai, Bahnam's lot who swore an oath of loyalty to the Democrats during the election campaign, then left at remarkable speed when they were offered a place in the trough. Wasn't the former governor of TAT going to stand for this bunch? (decided not to when the film festival thing blew up.)

Peun Pen (?) Vanata's lot same as above. Their Mr Big made a dash for Cambodia when he realized he was going to be sent down.

There are a couple of equally highly principled parties in the fray. (Where is Sriracha John when you need concise answers? )

The Democrats were the government of choice before Takky. Not totally clean but at least a little discreet.

Talk about between a rock and a hard place. A none of the above option could cause a major social division.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Chang_paarp

[WinnieTheKhwai]

After BBC/CNN atrotious covering of the recent Russia-Georgia conflict I have lost all faith in their integrity. BBC is still somewhat better in the footnotes they occasionally mention that is was Georgia that started the war, after thousand words rants against "Russia's invasion" [...] No wonder this latest "analysis" starts with 2006 episode of Prem talking to the soldiers. Let it go already

This is what I find so interesting and what led me to post a poll earlier on our Thai political views vs those on the rest of the world.. Like I agree 100% with you on the Georgia situation.. But probably diagree with 80% that you post on Thai politics..

I thought this article was PERFECT because it shows so clear what the frame of mind is at what people usually refer to as the 'elite'. They could have gone far further, or less far, but the fact remains that this is a short statement by Prem that provides the perfect summary of their attitude towards running the nation, and the place of the military and parliament/government.

This is not ancient history, all the people are still there, holding the exact same positions. And now there's a minority of convenient puppets screaming for, guess what, reducing the role of the electorate.

[sriracha john]

I think the lack of comment from you know who is very interesting and, I assume, implies a refusal to favour either side in this.

I also think the Army chief is to be commended for keeping the troops in the barracks. Why should the Army intervene every time a politician becomes unpopular?

I hope neither the current government nor the PAD win this confrontation as neither seems very democratic. Maybe this confrontation will cause both to become discredited.

Best result would be fresh elections. Hopefully the Samak Govt debacle would cause more people to vote for other parties.

Surely its about time to give the actual Opposition, whichis not the PAD but the Democrats, a chance to show what they can do. They could hardly do a worse job.

The trouble is the choice of parties....

PPP/TRT current major party, bank rolled by Takky

Peun Thai, same as above, but no seats currently, back-up for when PPP gets the bullet in the court.

Chart Thai, Bahnam's lot who swore an oath of loyalty to the Democrats during the election campaign, then left at remarkable speed when they were offered a place in the trough. Wasn't the former governor of TAT going to stand for this bunch? (decided not to when the film festival thing blew up.)

Peun Pen (?) Vanata's lot same as above. Their Mr Big made a dash for Cambodia when he realized he was going to be sent down.

There are a couple of equally highly principled parties in the fray. (Where is Sriracha John when you need concise answers? )

:D

New Poipet-resident and convicted escapee Vatana was the boss of Puea Pandin (who also had my infamous suing TAT Governor of my signature)

Chart Thai is facing dissolution along with Chart Thai and Matchima Thipayahoo, and as of last week People Power Party. They have been processed along in the system to where theiir cases are in front of the Court. The Election Commission is also continuing to investigate the Puea Pandin. Democrat, and 2 other Parties..but have not filed charges with the Court yet.

The Puea Thai Party info:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2162637

and 2 posts down from that one.

They will be

TRT, ver. 3.0

An emerging new party is the Thailand Hippy Party, a for-real name party with a platform.

Edited September 7, 2008 by sriracha john

[soundman]

THBOMK around 45,000,000 people in Thailand are elegible to vote.

I'm lost with this acronym....What does it mean?

Cheers

To the best of my knowledge. (I made it up due to laziness! )

[Bagwan]

The first step to put Thailand on the road to real democracy would be to make anyone standing for election to relinquish all forms of police or military rank as part of the process.

Isn't this what Thaksin did?

BTW can somebody please post a picture of Thaksin in police uniform?

[Old Man River]

Once again, it's the foreign media leading the real debate about what's really going on here.

What are you talking about? The Thai press, more than TV, report and speculate on every aspect of the current standoff.

I couldn't agree more. The problem for most foreigners and some Thai's is that we don't read Thai which means we can't follow most of what the Thai media is discussing. This is one of the reasons I like to read Bangkok Pundit and other analysts who are fluent in both Thai and English.

[LaoPo]

It could have been a sentence from "The Godfather".

In fact hi-so networking is the same all over the world; however in Thailand the circle is much smaller than in most countries but they have more connections to the army/police than their western counterpart families/connections.

LaoPo

Hehe, yeah, but here it's often rather public. As for upper echelon networking, I think you'll agree that we'll find forms of it all over the world... as to how accessible it is, one's mileage and opinions will of course vary.

Absolutely, and not a single doubt about that...

It's difficult for a dime to become a quarter...

LaoPo

[who]

It could have been a sentence from "The Godfather".

In fact hi-so networking is the same all over the world; however in Thailand the circle is much smaller than in most countries but they have more connections to the army/police than their western counterpart families/connections.

LaoPo

I wonder how many actual individuals comprise this circle. 10,000; 25,000; 50,000? (including all members of the families) or is it much smaller?

[ando]

THBOMK around 45,000,000 people in Thailand are elegible to vote.

I'm lost with this acronym....What does it mean?

Cheers

To the best of my knowledge. (I made it up due to laziness! )

Could be well over 50 million based on the info in this link, --

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th.../th.html#People

"Age structure:

0-14 years: 21.2% (male 7,104,776/female 6,781,453)

15-64 years: 70.3% (male 22,763,274/female 23,304,793)

65 years and over: 8.5% (male 2,516,721/female 3,022,281) (2008 est.) "

[Plus]

After BBC/CNN atrotious covering of the recent Russia-Georgia conflict I have lost all faith in their integrity. BBC is still somewhat better in the footnotes they occasionally mention that is was Georgia that started the war, after thousand words rants against "Russia's invasion" [...] No wonder this latest "analysis" starts with 2006 episode of Prem talking to the soldiers. Let it go already

This is what I find so interesting and what led me to post a poll earlier on our Thai political views vs those on the rest of the world.. Like I agree 100% with you on the Georgia situation.. But probably diagree with 80% that you post on Thai politics..

I thought this article was PERFECT because it shows so clear what the frame of mind is at what people usually refer to as the 'elite'. They could have gone far further, or less far, but the fact remains that this is a short statement by Prem that provides the perfect summary of their attitude towards running the nation, and the place of the military and parliament/government.

This is not ancient history, all the people are still there, holding the exact same positions. And now there's a minority of convenient puppets screaming for, guess what, reducing the role of the electorate.

I agree about the "frame of mind", it is still relevant, but the current army chief does not travel around telling soldiers to prepare to defend the King and the country. He supports the government's right to rule, he simply doesn't follow their crazy orders.

He won't allow any kind of coup and won't allow any kind of violence.

Having said that - let's wait until Samak's UN speech. If the situation really drags out that long, who knows what will happen.

Has someone mentioned in this thread that half the parliament in Hong Kong is appointed? They even reduced the role of elected MPs in the run up to the Olympics because the electorate was completely caught up in the pre-Olympic frenzy and was vulnerable to exploitation by nationalistic politicians.

Anyone here feels and urge to rant against HK's democracy? Or is it only PAD you can hate with all your guts?

>>>

I welcome people with first hand experience to comment on HK system.

[Tony Clifton]

The first step to put Thailand on the road to real democracy would be to make anyone standing for election to relinquish all forms of police or military rank as part of the process.

Isn't this what Thaksin did?

BTW can somebody please post a picture of Thaksin in police uniform?

If there is one person who did milk his rank title it sure was Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin.

I guess he can`t be called that anymore.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[unforgiven]

I think we have gone back into a standoff for the coming few weeks. Nothing will happen. Until someone wants to stir violence again.

The only thing that I am wondering about is were is Anupong?

Waerth

1 question ,do you think I should pull the plug on my stock porfolio?

[WAERTH]

I think we have gone back into a standoff for the coming few weeks. Nothing will happen. Until someone wants to stir violence again.

The only thing that I am wondering about is were is Anupong?

Waerth

1 question ,do you think I should pull the plug on my stock porfolio?

Would you make a decision based on the opinion of one person (whom is an anonymous character posting on an internet forum)? If so my tariff is 100 euros an hour This was just my opinion, reacting to someone else. I am not at home in the world of the stock market. But if it was my money ......

I would temporarily pull out of the stock market wait for it to plummet further and then when I think it has hit bottom more or less start buying again.

But this is advice of someone with no knowledge of the stock markets or the systems moving them. So no guarantees in the validity of this advise. I personally think the poison cup in this mess still has poison left in it and we have not yet hit the bottom (the bottom doesn't necessarily have to be violence or a coup mind you) and as the saying in Dutch goes .... you have to drink from the poison cup till it is empty .....

Waerth

Edited September 8, 2008 by WAERTH

[h90]

According to the TV news reports, these demonstrators have been found with knives, machetes and even firearms.

The fact that many of them are women is immaterial.

I take H90's point that he knows middle-class people (what's that in Thailand?) who are not paid to be there. But I suspect a lot of them are. No, I guess I can't prove it. But I think it will come out in the wash.

where did you read about the firearms?

Saw the firearms on Thai-language TV.

Here also is the Economist, this week:

"The protesters have a variety of weapons and have been whipped up by Demagogues."

"variety of weapons" does not mean firearms

[hammered]

On a slightly different note I wonder what would have happened had the army "obeyed" the PMs orders and started an assault on the PAD demonstration? Sometimes a little disobedience may be a good thing;)

[svenivan]

Economist[/i], this week:

"The protesters have a variety of weapons and have been whipped up by Demagogues."

"variety of weapons" does not mean firearms

h-90, he says "Saw the firearms on Thai-language TV."

[h90]

Economist, this week:

"The protesters have a variety of weapons and have been whipped up by Demagogues."

"variety of weapons" does not mean firearms

h-90, he says "Saw the firearms on Thai-language TV."

ups I am half sleeping.........brain malfunction :D

Reason of edit: the quotes are a bit wrong, maybe still wrong....

Edited September 8, 2008 by h90

[blaze]

On a slightly different note I wonder what would have happened had the army "obeyed" the PMs orders and started an assault on the PAD demonstration? Sometimes a little disobedience may be a good thing;)

The problem with a disobedient army (or police force) is that it can disobey orders that you support as easily as it disobeyes orders you don't support.

Edited September 8, 2008 by blaze

[Steve2UK]

Thai army disobeys PM's orders -- so what's new?..............................

Besides minor operations in Vietnam, and the occasional border skirmish with Myanmar, it has fought only one proper war -- a three month affair against neighbouring Laos in 1987-88. Japanese occupation in the Second World War was unopposed.

..............................

Excellent article - but the highlighted portion is at least open to question............ see the following link for a summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Invasion_of_Thailand

For those interested in how/why the orders for a ceasefire following the (opposed) Japanese landings came about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaek_Pibulsonggram

[WinnieTheKhwai]

On a slightly different note I wonder what would have happened had the army obeyed the PMs orders and started an assault on the PAD demonstration? Sometimes a little disobedience may be a good thing;)

Same as in any other civilized country when there's demonstrations rioting; people get wet, people get teary eyes, a few are arrested and later released and the rest goes home.

Honestly, it's really not that hard. If there's only one exit to the compound then obviously you don't start pushing from the entrance but rather you go over/through a back or side wall (pull a wall down, etc.) and get people out while making sure there's no mass stampede.

Of course that assumes a basic level of ability in crowd control.. which... ok never mind.

[Plus]

There are too many people there. If there's a serious threat of forceful eviction, tens of thousans would immediately join in. On good days the crowd might swell to a hundred thousand.

To put into the perspective - the US keeps the whole of Iraq occupied with only 150k troops. Thai police has what - 2-3 thousand, one policeman for fifty protesters. Even one to three ratio would be too low for non-violent approach, I think.

[Bruce1]

Hong Kong is hardly a real democracy when so many members are appointed to carry out the will of the HK Govt, which is itself chosen to carry out the will of Beijing.

[h90]

There are too many people there. If there's a serious threat of forceful eviction, tens of thousans would immediately join in. On good days the crowd might swell to a hundred thousand.

To put into the perspective - the US keeps the whole of Iraq occupied with only 150k troops. Thai police has what - 2-3 thousand, one policeman for fifty protesters. Even one to three ratio would be too low for non-violent approach, I think.

Reuters reported 550.000 when they went the first time to government house and police 15-20K.

Basically the same figures just shifted.

I got told Thailand has 200 K policemen and girls. Many might be just in the office. You can't move all to that place, because you need to have someone remain.

So I doubt that they can get much more than 20 K to action there (but I saw a funny group of policemen everyone between 120-140 kg, don't know which department, they off course count triple, they can't get pushed away easily....)

[Plus]

Hong Kong is hardly a real democracy when so many members are appointed to carry out the will of the HK Govt, which is itself chosen to carry out the will of Beijing.

This organisation listed HK as the second most democratic country in Asia:

http://www.asiademocracy.org/content_view....;content_id=567

[owenjones]

THBOMK around 45,000,000 people in Thailand are elegible to vote.

I'm lost with this acronym....What does it mean?

Cheers

To the best of my knowledge. (I made it up due to laziness! )

Ah, I see ....

'H' stands for 'the'

[soundman]

THBOMK around 45,000,000 people in Thailand are elegible to vote.

I'm lost with this acronym....What does it mean?

Cheers

To the best of my knowledge. (I made it up due to laziness! )

Ah, I see ....

'H' stands for 'the'

Spelling was never a personal arttribute.