Thai Army Disobeys Pm's Orders

[OlRedEyes]

Is it really so surprising that in the land of face, 'democracy' is also just face?

All the shenanigans of govt, opposition, protesters etc. is an absolutely irrelevant sideshow. They simply don't matter, and by the looks of it, will continue not to matter indefinitely. All this debate about democracy, PAD, Samak, Govt. House and the rest of the circus is simply to keep the masses occupied. Just another Thai soapie.

Who votes for who is irrelevant. Human rights?

Pointless discussion.

[cloudhopper]

Is it really so surprising that in the land of face, 'democracy' is also just face?

All the shenanigans of govt, opposition, protesters etc. is an absolutely irrelevant sideshow. They simply don't matter, and by the looks of it, will continue not to matter indefinitely. All this debate about democracy, PAD, Samak, Govt. House and the rest of the circus is simply to keep the masses occupied. Just another Thai soapie.

Who votes for who is irrelevant. Human rights?

Pointless discussion.

Summed up perfectly once again ORE.

[SiriusBlack1]

Thai army disobeys PM's orders -- so what's new?

Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:05pm IST

By Ed Cropley

BANGKOK (Reuters) - In July 2006, an 85-year-old Thai general dressed up in full military regalia to address a bunch of graduating young officers. It was no ordinary passing out parade.

This article should be required reading for all.

What's happening in Bangkok is essentially a military putsch without tanks. Instead of overthrowing the government directly, the military is using this PAD rent-a-mob to destabilize and embarrass the government until it gets one it likes. But nothing changes, and parliament contains so many appointed grandees that it can never threaten the military with the legitimacy of a truly elected body.

The future looks dark.

[h90]

Thai army disobeys PM's orders -- so what's new?

Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:05pm IST

By Ed Cropley

BANGKOK (Reuters) - In July 2006, an 85-year-old Thai general dressed up in full military regalia to address a bunch of graduating young officers. It was no ordinary passing out parade.

This article should be required reading for all.

What's happening in Bangkok is essentially a military putsch without tanks. Instead of overthrowing the government directly, the military is using this PAD rent-a-mob to destabilize and embarrass the government until it gets one it likes. But nothing changes, and parliament contains so many appointed grandees that it can never threaten the military with the legitimacy of a truly elected body.

The future looks dark.

The PAD isn't a Rent-a-mob. PAD wouldn't sit there if the government would act like a normal government in a normal country. No surprise that everyone with brain doesn't accept a bunch of criminals as government. As no one want a coup they do peaceful civil disobedience. Actually it isn't a secret they are telling it all the day.

[Plus]

So you have faith in the army- would it be fair to say that the army would never mount a coup against a government that you supported- and that the army would never use deadly force to break up protests by those who opposed the coup and the gov't it installed?

At this point the army are the last ones who'd use deadly force. They refuse to follow Samak's orders precisely for that reason, and I think it's a valid one.

[SiriusBlack1]

The PAD isn't a Rent-a-mob. PAD wouldn't sit there if the government would act like a normal government in a normal country. No surprise that everyone with brain doesn't accept a bunch of criminals as government. As no one want a coup they do peaceful civil disobedience. Actually it isn't a secret they are telling it all the day.

Well, as the BBC's Jonathan Head observed, these people seem to be remarkably well financed and seem to be under no pressure to go back to their jobs. Somebody is paying. And they have crossed the line from peaceful protest into insurrection by their armed occupation of Government House. In a properly governed state, the democratically elected head of government would order the police or, in extreme cases, the army to restore order. The fact that this did not happen testifies that Thailand is no democracy. It differs from Burma only in degree, not kind.

The PAD shun democracy and make no attempt to hide their contempt for it.

[Bagwan]

Who do you think has been putting these generals through school and pushing them through the ranks (it's not like they have any opportunity to advance through military campaigns)?

Do you think that they could mount one? Not on the evidence of 1941. My guess is that in the very unlikely event of being invaded their first priority would be safeguarding their businesses - and transferring overseas as many of their assets as they could.

[Heng]

Oh it's not as dire as all that. This isn't the PLA (China), where they actually run their own business interests. Local big business has 'owned' the army for generations. Who do you think has been putting these generals through school and pushing them through the ranks (it's not like they have any opportunity to advance through military campaigns)?

They do also protect local businesses. Don't forget that Thaksin was a policeman. His shutdown of bars at 2am hurt a lot of businesses that believed they were beyond being touched.

Not too many compared to the police. The police have their hands in just about everything, the army only has their hands in a few key lucrative businesses and of course gets their take of the national budget (on the surface, it seems like a huge amount, but when spread around to all the interests of various parties involved, it comes down to earth). And even then, both sides tend to have their strings pulled by the private sector, not the other way around.

[Heng]

Do you think that they could mount one? Not on the evidence of 1941. My guess is that in the very unlikely event of being invaded their first priority would be safeguarding their businesses - and transferring overseas as many of their assets as they could.

That's what those who have able to have done everywhere since the beginning of time.

[h90]

The PAD isn't a Rent-a-mob. PAD wouldn't sit there if the government would act like a normal government in a normal country. No surprise that everyone with brain doesn't accept a bunch of criminals as government. As no one want a coup they do peaceful civil disobedience. Actually it isn't a secret they are telling it all the day.

Well, as the BBC's Jonathan Head observed, these people seem to be remarkably well financed and seem to be under no pressure to go back to their jobs. Somebody is paying. And they have crossed the line from peaceful protest into insurrection by their armed occupation of Government House. In a properly governed state, the democratically elected head of government would order the police or, in extreme cases, the army to restore order. The fact that this did not happen testifies that Thailand is no democracy. It differs from Burma only in degree, not kind.

The PAD shun democracy and make no attempt to hide their contempt for it.

Most of them are women (while the husband is working) mostly middle class and not always the same people. My staff is every weekend and evening there, my wife, some neighbors and they don't get one baht.

The occupation of the Government House was not armed.

At this: "In a properly governed state, the democratic elected head....": exactly yes.

But Thailand is not properly governed, it is a corrupt mafia and they are not democratic elected, they came with vote buying into power. Therefor wherever you look people don't obey the governments orders. No policemen want to beat old women and children for a corrupt government.

[percy2]

THBOMK around 45,000,000 people in Thailand are elegible to vote.

I'm lost with this acronym....What does it mean?

Cheers

[ThaiAdventure]

Me thinks the children playing politics are about to get a spanking.....again!

[pete_r]

The PAD isn't a Rent-a-mob. PAD wouldn't sit there if the government would act like a normal government in a normal country. No surprise that everyone with brain doesn't accept a bunch of criminals as government. As no one want a coup they do peaceful civil disobedience. Actually it isn't a secret they are telling it all the day.

And because they are telling it all day, it should be the truth?

Don't take it the wrong way, but this echoes a certain people in the good old Jungle Book: "We all say so, therefore it must be true.".

[SiriusBlack1]

According to the TV news reports, these demonstrators have been found with knives, machetes and even firearms.

The fact that many of them are women is immaterial.

I take H90's point that he knows middle-class people (what's that in Thailand?) who are not paid to be there. But I suspect a lot of them are. No, I guess I can't prove it. But I think it will come out in the wash.

[h90]

According to the TV news reports, these demonstrators have been found with knives, machetes and even firearms.

The fact that many of them are women is immaterial.

I take H90's point that he knows middle-class people (what's that in Thailand?) who are not paid to be there. But I suspect a lot of them are. No, I guess I can't prove it. But I think it will come out in the wash.

where did you read about the firearms?

[LaoPo]

Oh it's not as dire as all that. This isn't the PLA (China), where they actually run their own business interests. Local big business has 'owned' the army for generations. Who do you think has been putting these generals through school and pushing them through the ranks (it's not like they have any opportunity to advance through military campaigns)?

They do also protect local businesses. Don't forget that Thaksin was a policeman. His shutdown of bars at 2am hurt a lot of businesses that believed they were beyond being touched.

Not too many compared to the police. The police have their hands in just about everything, the army only has their hands in a few key lucrative businesses and of course gets their take of the national budget (on the surface, it seems like a huge amount, but when spread around to all the interests of various parties involved, it comes down to earth). And even then, both sides tend to have their strings pulled by the private sector, not the other way around.

Heng:

Would it be safe to alter your last sentence a bit like:

"And even then, both sides tend to have their strings pulled by the private sector, run by their (own) families/relatives, not the other way around." ?

Just a simple farang thought on a Sunny September Saturday afternoon.

LaoPo

[Heng]

Oh it's not as dire as all that. This isn't the PLA (China), where they actually run their own business interests. Local big business has 'owned' the army for generations. Who do you think has been putting these generals through school and pushing them through the ranks (it's not like they have any opportunity to advance through military campaigns)?

They do also protect local businesses. Don't forget that Thaksin was a policeman. His shutdown of bars at 2am hurt a lot of businesses that believed they were beyond being touched.

Not too many compared to the police. The police have their hands in just about everything, the army only has their hands in a few key lucrative businesses and of course gets their take of the national budget (on the surface, it seems like a huge amount, but when spread around to all the interests of various parties involved, it comes down to earth). And even then, both sides tend to have their strings pulled by the private sector, not the other way around.

Heng:

Would it be safe to alter your last sentence a bit like:

"And even then, both sides tend to have their strings pulled by the private sector, run by their (own) families/relatives, not the other way around." ?

LaoPo

There are certainly families that fit that formula as well, but I think if you look at the big picture, you'll still see more business families controlling/influencing and employing army/police families. If you just look at the rhetoric when a young son or daughter from one of these latter families gets married: When they are up on stage at the Plaza Athenee, Peninsula, or wherever, thanking the guests, there is almost always that line of "if our family can be of service to you..." These folks are (not always, but IMO more often than not) just lubrication for the machine.

[geriatrickid]

Thai military position here sounds alot like a bum on skid row that shows up at the Salvation Army feeding center, discovers religion for an hour, sings a few hymns for his dinner and then afterwards goes back to panhandling and drinking his bottle of cheap ripple.

[CuriousGeorge77]

Could you really imagine what a predicament the country would be in if the military blindly followed the orders of some of the lunatics in charge of this place just because 15,000,000 out of 65,000,000 voted for them?

You may have to increase a bit the figures, but I believe the USA are doing just fine.

I presume you are one of the 15,000,000 then? I assure you, most of us in the US do not feel we are doing just fine

[LaoPo]

Oh it's not as dire as all that. This isn't the PLA (China), where they actually run their own business interests. Local big business has 'owned' the army for generations. Who do you think has been putting these generals through school and pushing them through the ranks (it's not like they have any opportunity to advance through military campaigns)?

They do also protect local businesses. Don't forget that Thaksin was a policeman. His shutdown of bars at 2am hurt a lot of businesses that believed they were beyond being touched.

Not too many compared to the police. The police have their hands in just about everything, the army only has their hands in a few key lucrative businesses and of course gets their take of the national budget (on the surface, it seems like a huge amount, but when spread around to all the interests of various parties involved, it comes down to earth). And even then, both sides tend to have their strings pulled by the private sector, not the other way around.

Heng:

Would it be safe to alter your last sentence a bit like:

"And even then, both sides tend to have their strings pulled by the private sector, run by their (own) families/relatives, not the other way around." ?

LaoPo

There are certainly families that fit that formula as well, but I think if you look at the big picture, you'll still see more business families controlling/influencing and employing army/police families. If you just look at the rhetoric when a young son or daughter from one of these latter families gets married: When they are up on stage at the Plaza Athenee, Peninsula, or wherever, thanking the guests, there is almost always that line of "if our family can be of service to you..." These folks are (not always, but IMO more often than not) just lubrication for the machine.

It could have been a sentence from "The Godfather".

In fact hi-so networking is the same all over the world; however in Thailand the circle is much smaller than in most countries but they have more connections to the army/police than their western counterpart families/connections.

LaoPo

[endure]

The first step to put Thailand on the road to real democracy would be to make anyone standing for election to relinquish all forms of police or military rank as part of the process.

[LaoPo]

The first step to put Thailand on the road to real democracy would be to make anyone standing for election to relinquish all forms of police or military rank as part of the process.

I agree but it's also wishful thinking.

The point is that those (from police or military) who wish to join politics (why, other than power would they wish to do so ?) don't want to give up their profitable contacts (.....) and as soon as they're removed because of a shift in government because of a coup, elections or protests..... they want (and will get) their old -police/military- jobs back...

An endless circle if you ask me.

LaoPo

[unforgiven]

Thai army disobeys PM's orders -- so what's new?

Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:05pm IST

By Ed Cropley

BANGKOK (Reuters) - In July 2006, an 85-year-old Thai general dressed up in full military regalia to address a bunch of graduating young officers. It was no ordinary passing out parade.

The general was Prem Tinsulanonda, chief adviser to King Bhumibol Adulyadej, and his message was clear and aimed straight at elected Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawtra.

"Soldiers are like horses and governments are jockeys but not owners. You belong to the nation and His Majesty the King," Prem, also a former army chief and prime minister, said.

His comments were prophetic -- two months later, the army removed Thaksin in the 18th coup in 74 years of on-off democracy.

They also show how this week army chief Anupong Paochinda could refuse orders from Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej to evict, by force if necessary, the thousands of protesters who have been occupying his official compound calling for his head.

Put simply, Thailand's army has never taken orders from the government.

"The military is not answerable to the executive," historian and Thaksin biographer Chris Baker said. "The elected government comes in every now and then, and they can ride on the horse for a bit but they don't actually own it or control it."

Within hours of Samak declaring emergency rule on Tuesday to get the army to remove the protesters from Government House, Anupong made it clear he would deploy only unarmed troops and only to prevent pro- and anti-government groups clashing.

"If we thought we could use police and soldiers to get them out of with a peaceful conclusion, we would do it. But we think that that would create problems," he said.

In its most glaring form, the military's disdain for elected government -- which, ironically, started with the overthrow of absolute monarchy in 1932 -- is shown in the frequency with which it has launched a coup: on average, once every four years.

But its control in a country where patronage is still the prevailing social force stretches way beyond merely the periodic seizure of political power.

As well as more than 300,000 men, it has a widespread network of informants, a legacy of anti-communist activities during the Cold War, and is a major conduit for humanitarian projects evolving from the revered royal family.

The army owns TV and radio stations, was able to corner up to 20 percent of the national budget, and has as many as 1,000 generals on its staff, even though most of them are more familiar with golf, rather than rifle, ranges.

Besides minor operations in Vietnam, and the occasional border skirmish with Myanmar, it has fought only one proper war -- a three month affair against neighbouring Laos in 1987-88. Japanese occupation in the Second World War was unopposed.

Attempts to cut the armed forces down to size have invariably gone nowhere.

Only after 1992, when troops opened fire on huge democracy demonstrations, killing dozens, was its public standing so low the government could even contemplate military reform.

The financial crisis of 1997 led to further squeezing of the military share of the budget, which dropped to as little as six percent under Thaksin, whose career started with the police -- the army's bitter internal rivals.

After the putsch against Thaksin, the army-appointed government increased defence spending by 66 percent to $4.5 billion for 2007-08, leading many to question its motives in ousting the prime minister on the pretext of "rampant corruption".

Thaksin even claimed the army tried to assassinate him, sacking General Pallop Pinmanee as deputy director of the shadowy Internal Security Operations Command after a junior officer was found near his home in a car packed with explosives.

Pallop contemptuously dismissed any plot, saying: "If I had wanted to kill him, the prime minister would not have escaped."

Any predictions on how and when the current situation will be resolved.

[WAERTH]

I think we have gone back into a standoff for the coming few weeks. Nothing will happen. Until someone wants to stir violence again.

The only thing that I am wondering about is were is Anupong?

Waerth

[thaigene2]

Thai army disobeys PM's orders -- so what's new?

Thu Sep 4, 2008 4:05pm IST

By Ed Cropley

BANGKOK (Reuters) - In July 2006, an 85-year-old Thai general dressed up in full military regalia to address a bunch of graduating young officers. It was no ordinary passing out parade.

The general was Prem Tinsulanonda, chief adviser to King Bhumibol Adulyadej, and his message was clear and aimed straight at elected Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawtra.

"Soldiers are like horses and governments are jockeys but not owners. You belong to the nation and His Majesty the King," Prem, also a former army chief and prime minister, said.

His comments were prophetic -- two months later, the army removed Thaksin in the 18th coup in 74 years of on-off democracy.

......

Many have said that it was Prem who was primarily responsible for the coup in 2006, not Sondhi or some lower level generals. He might be the one calling the shots today. In western countries we are used to the president or head of secular government being commander in chief, but it is not so here.

FYI: Prem is HM the King's principal advisor and confident - as head of the Privy Council. I would doubt Prem is 'calling the shots' - simply presenting his view and that of the military establishment to HM - but if he (Prem) gets no objections perhaps he then acts on his own. It's not very clear really.

However, when the Junta-installed govt was in power last year, there was a motion (or discussion - I forget which) by the 'appointed parliament' to widen the already strict lese majeste laws to prevent discussion or debates about Prem and other memebers of the Privy Council. It didn't happen in the end...but I think you get the idea..They were trying to close all the loopholes for any dissent against right-wing coups and campaigns - and all discussions about who may or may not be behind them. If they had succeded, this thread would have been deleted by the Mods - or never posted in the first place.

Edited September 7, 2008 by thaigene2

[thaigene2]

Oh -- and yes I agree with others who say this is a good report. Once again, it's the foreign media leading the real debate about what's really going on here. Notice how PAD and Sondhi have their minions running around with anti-BBC posters and anti-foreign media banners? Interesting.

[Heng]

It could have been a sentence from "The Godfather".

In fact hi-so networking is the same all over the world; however in Thailand the circle is much smaller than in most countries but they have more connections to the army/police than their western counterpart families/connections.

LaoPo

Hehe, yeah, but here it's often rather public. As for upper echelon networking, I think you'll agree that we'll find forms of it all over the world... as to how accessible it is, one's mileage and opinions will of course vary.

[joe beets]

Oh -- and yes I agree with others who say this is a good report. Once again, it's the foreign media leading the real debate about what's really going on here. Notice how PAD and Sondhi have their minions running around with anti-BBC posters and anti-foreign media banners? Interesting.

No, didn't notice that.

Interesting.

Not that I blame them.

Those early reports took a decidedly pro-government slant.

Notice that?

Didn't think so.

Of course that's the angle one might well expect from the foreign media.

Mere people threatening a "democratically elected" government?

Uh oh, that might rouse our rabble.

Good old foreign media.

Always there when you need someone to - what was it? - reinforce your comfort zone.

Buttressing the status quo.

(Exceptions only prove the rule.)

Peace

[Plus]

After BBC/CNN atrotious covering of the recent Russia-Georgia conflict I have lost all faith in their integrity.

BBC is still somewhat better - in the footnotes they occasionally mention that is was Georgia that started the war, after thousand words rants against "Russia's invasion". CNN still completely ignores this simple fact.

Someone mentioned it here - they create a folder for each story and dump all the relevant news and articles into it. Next time they simply recycle this old material without even thinking of rechecking it.

No wonder this latest "analysis" starts with 2006 episode of Prem talking to the soldiers. Let it go already - there are all new players in charge. Current guys won't shoot the people, no matter how much Samak wants them to. In case they haven't noticed, it's not only the army that disobeys his government - there's a wide spread civil disobedience movement and even the basic utilities and trasnports links can be cut off at any moment.

[cmsally]

Personally I would like to see someone go randomly around the protests interviewing the participants and asking poignant political questions to see whether they really have a political viewpoint and understand the situation.

Do they know about Sondhi's background, about the blurred objectives, do they really think half the country are imbeciles?

I think the results could be quite enlightening.

Any volunteers?

Seeing as they are now anti BBC (read above), that rules me out (British accent).

I would be looking for something a bit deeper than , "I am doing it for my country" " I hate Samak" etc

The above foreign media bit posted above is something I find quite interesting, as I have thought from the beginning that this could turn anti foreigner when there is no one else to point the finger at.