'chinese' Thai Vs 'thai' Thai

[mbkudu]

I've always been told not to generalise, especially when it comes to people, but if some of these generalisations were not true, then we would not be discussing them.

[pantarei]

1. "Immigration seems to have a sorting effect on IQ. In the book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" the national average IQ for China is 100. But IQ's for countries where large numbers of Chinese have migrated are noticeably larger (Hong Kong 107, Taiwan 104, Singapore 104). Perhaps individuals who migrate to (and remain in) a different country are smarter on average than their former neighbors who stayed at home.

2. Certain East Asian countries have the highest average IQ scores, particularly in mathematical/ spatial skills. This talent may develop because students in China, Korea, and Japan are required to recognize and utilize thousands of word characters. It's interesting that Japanese living in the US (who are taught in English ) score about 3 IQ.points less than their countrymen in Japan. This IQ difference is the opposite of the Chinese immigrants in point 1, who do learn to write in Chinese characters in Singapore.

3. Many European countries have IQ's about as high as China and nearby Asian countries. Recent genetics studies have shown that both European and northern Asian peoples are descended from common ancestors in central Asia. Perhaps the cold, harsh living conditions in central Asia (compared to milder climates for those migrating out of Africa into South Asia) created a selection process favoring those smart enough to survive in that harsh climate."

http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQdifferences.htm

Comments: (1) IMO, these are interesting hypotheses. I am not sure if a difference of 3 IQ points is statistically significant. A 7 IQ point difference is most likely significant (?). (2) Individuals who migrate may not be smarter but almost certainly may be forced to try harder than their former neighbours.

<In his working with Emotional Intelligence Goleman wrote: "I found that 67 percent - two out of three - of the abilities deemed essential for effective performance were emotional competencies. Compared to IQ and expertise, emotional competence mattered twice as much. This held true across all categories of jobs, and in all kinds of organizations."

Research published in 2002 compares high school qualities to earnings at ages 35 and 53. It shows that the effects of IQ are lower than previously thought. Aspirations, socialization, and role models were found to be quite important.>

http://www.sq.4mg.com/r_iq_ei.htm

[dugdig]

pantarei,

I attend university and studied to become a techer. Here is some of what theytaught us about IQ.

It is supposed to be a measure of intelligence. No one has baeen able to define intelligence in a way that can 1. encompass the myriad mental skills native to humans and 2. have a functional meaning to the educational process. Even if you try measure one narrow type of intelligence (there are many types) it is very difficult to do since people's abilities in test taking is so varied. Basically IQ scores are only very broad indicators of a narrow definition of intelligence. The remarkable thinkg about IQ tests is how similiar the results are across demographic groups... We were taught that IQ scores should not be used to create policy or to make decisions concerning individuals or groups of individuals. There are other ways to make evaluations which are much more relevant in these situations.

[panzer]

Don't mistake light-skinned Thai girls for Chinese. Thai girls aren't necessarily dark skinned. Just look at Ching Mai girls or even in Bangkok you'll find that a lot of girls are light but they dont have 'chinky' eyes.

[chonabot]

Don't mistake light-skinned Thai girls for Chinese.  Thai girls aren't necessarily dark skinned.  Just look at Ching Mai girls or even in Bangkok you'll find that a lot of girls are light but they dont have 'chinky' eyes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm there's a pansy about methinks.....

[iChubbyGirl]

How about 50%isaarn 25%Thai 25%chinese????

yep i'm hard working ppl. it's in my blood...

[mbkudu]

1. Perhaps individuals who migrate to (and remain in) a different country are smarter on average than their former neighbors who stayed at home.

With this could you surmise that the Yanks have one up on the Brits? I'm not so sure of it. The ones who left initially were poor and landless looking for a new life.

I think it's the same for the Chinese who migrate out of China. Desparate circumstances often trigger risk taking and a move to greener pastures. Many of the new immigrants coming to America will be from Iraq. The war will have pushed them to the limit of desparation and they will be forced to find a new place to settle. IQ has little to do with it I would say.

[kat]

Quote:

"(and no I don't buy into the simplistic "genes" theory; it is more a matter of culture and environment)."

Professor Dr. Hans Galjaard (1935) is not just 'a' Professor; he is one of the, very respected, leading scientists in the world regarding the research into genes.

He is a giant in his field.

It would be too simple to call his work or the theory: "simplistic "genes" theory.

That's much too easy.

Let me ask you: where does culture and environment come from?

How did these develop, starting in ancient times?

Indeed, the development of 'genes' in human beiings.

LaoPo:

It's not my intention to trivalize your point of view, or that of the genetics expert, Dr. Galjaard. I am sure he is a formiddable scientist on the topic of genetics. My previous criticism of "simplistic" genetic theories is not necessarily of Dr. Galjaard's, but of genetic arguments that are used to explain achievement in general. I have not really dug deep on this topic, but I am certain that there are "experts" equal to that of Dr. Galjaard who argue against genetic theory in this regard.

I don't have time to discuss this at length right now, but you ask me: "where does culture and environment come from?" If you study culture from a historical point of view, one could more easily argue that culture evolves from a set of given circumstances and opportunities (or lack thereof). How many different peoples in S.E. Asia alone have migrated from China? Why have some succeeded and others not? Can you really present a reliable hypothesis about genetics when there are so many variables across culture, environment, and opportunities? Who is measuring and assigning a value to characteristics that are deemed intelligent? How are these characteristics measured?

As a theory to explain supposed superiority of one sort or another, genetics tends to fall short on everything but a narrow set of racial constructions. You simply cannot judge human achievement within a petri dish that is isolated from social, economic, and environmental factors.

In terms of how ancient cultures started, much of it was out of necessity. People needed to cultivate rice in S.E. Asia, so they cultivated wet and dry rice. The Thai were able to settle along riverbeds and form permanent settlements in contrast to the highland dry rice inhabitants. Is this because they have a higher IQ, or because of group identity or formation - I don't know. How were they able to negotiate and usurp settlers that already inhabited land? One can only speculate. One thing is for certain, this aided them in group identity and state formation to the disadvantage of other groups. And yet, Thailand consistently tests last in all major surveys on educational achievements in the region. So, exactly how is your argument going to aid you here?

I don't like genetics theory for the simple reason that I find it to be a lazy theory when it comes to explanations on human achievement and development.

Who is this Professor Galjaard? How much does he drink per day and does he feel comfortable kissing? Thats what I want to know. We don't just hand out credibility on a silver platter here...you've got to earn it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right on. Someone who knows all the right questions

[pantarei]

pantarei,

I attend university and studied to become a techer.  Here is some of what theytaught us about IQ.

It is supposed to be a measure of intelligence.  No one has baeen able to define intelligence in a way that can 1.  encompass the myriad mental skills native to humans and 2.  have a functional meaning to the educational process.  Even if you try measure one narrow type of intelligence (there are many types) it is very difficult to do since people's abilities in test taking is so varied.  Basically IQ scores are only very broad indicators of a narrow definition of intelligence.  The remarkable thinkg about IQ tests is how similiar the results are across demographic groups...  We were taught that IQ scores should not be used to create policy or to make decisions concerning individuals or groups of individuals.  There are other ways to make evaluations which are much more relevant in these situations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As indicated in my previous post, the 3 conclusions quoted in my previous post and taken from http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQdifferences.htm , are hypotheses (not proven facts).

The IQ test is supposed to measure cognitive intelligence. I agree that test-taking abilities play a role in the test result. Furthermore, some (many?) people with high cognitive intelligence are under-achievers in real life because they have low emotional intelligence and/or lack motivation.

However, there seems to be a correlation between IQ scores and per capita income in different countries. These numbers can be interpreted in many ways:

http://www.sq.4mg.com/corrupt.htm

Hong Kong 107 Korea, South 106 Japan 105 Taiwan 104 Singapore 104 Austria 102 Germany 102 Italy 102 Netherlands 102 Sweden 101 Switzerland 101 Belgium 100 China 100 New Zealand 100 U. Kingdom 100 Hungary 99 Poland 99 Australia 98 Denmark 98 France 98 Norway 98 United States 98 Canada 97 Czech Republic 97 Finland 97 Spain 97 Argentina 96 Russia 96 Slovakia 96 Uruguay 96 Portugal 95 Slovenia 95 Israel 94 Romania 94 Bulgaria 93 Ireland 93 Greece 92 Malaysia 92 Thailand 91 Croatia 90 Peru 90 Turkey 90 Columbia 89 Indonesia 89 Suriname 89 Brazil 87 Iraq 87 Mexico 87 Samoa (Western) 87 Tonga 87 Lebanon 86 Philippines 86 Cuba 85 Morocco 85 Fiji 84 Iran 84 Marshall Islands 84 Puerto Rico 84 Egypt 83 India 81 Ecuador 80 Guatemala 79 Barbados 78 Nepal 78 Qatar 78 Zambia 77 Congo (Brazz) 73 Uganda 73 Jamaica 72 Kenya 72 South Africa 72 Sudan 72 Tanzania 72 Ghana 71 Nigeria 67 Guinea 66 Zimbabwe 66 Congo (Zaire) 65 Sierra Leone 64 Ethiopia 63 Equatorial Guinea 59

[pantarei]

1. Perhaps individuals who migrate to (and remain in) a different country are smarter on average than their former neighbors who stayed at home.

With this could you surmise that the Yanks have one up on the Brits? I'm not so sure of it. The ones who left initially were poor and landless looking for a new life.

I think it's the same for the Chinese who migrate out of China. Desparate circumstances often trigger risk taking and a move to greener pastures. Many of the new immigrants coming to America will be from Iraq. The war will have pushed them to the limit of desparation and they will be forced to find a new place to settle. IQ has little to do with it I would say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Pilgrims were definitely not smarter than Isaac Newton.

I did say in my previous post that “Individuals who migrate may not be smarter but almost certainly may be forced to try harder than their former neighbours.”

People who emigrate fall into at least four categories:

(1) seekers of greener pastures, (2) refugees, (3) adventurers, (4) malcontents.

Some of them were smarter than their neighbors who stayed home (e.g, many of the physicists involved in the Manhattan Project).

Going back to the issue brought up by the initial poster: “The thing I want to know is in reality is there this massive gap between the Chinese Thais and the original Thais, and if so why is this the case?”

There are quite a few “original Thais” (old money) who are more affluent (and more classy) than the Chinese Thais (new money). There are quite a few dirt poor hill tribe people in NW Thailand. If I am not mistaken, many of them are ethnic Chinese.

I talked recently to two of my Thai friends about the financial-asset difference between Thais and Chinese Thais. The baht difference is due to the different definition of “success”. One of my Thai friends, a US college graduate, told me that Thais do not believe in having their grandma work in their store 16 hours/day. Another friend, a brilliant Thai college graduate, told me that there is more to life than making money.

BTW, the Chinese Thai “princess” who is ashamed of her nationality should renounce her Thai citizenship. She is a bigger loser than the bar girls she is “ashamed of”.

[dugdig]

You think that the Pilgrims were not as smart as Newton? Do you actually know ANYTHING about how smart the Pilgrims were? I think you don't have one shred of information about the intellligence of Pilgrims.....and even if I accep this fabrication of yours it is meaningless.

Also, the people who have severly deficient intellectual abilities (read this severly mentally retarded) don't have the ability to emmigrate therefore the average intelligence of those who do will be higher than a population at large....it proves nothing!!!

Talking about differences in intelligence of groups of people is totally bogus virtually 100% of the time. The most incredible thing is how similar intelligence is spread throughout the human race!!

[RamdomChances]

Some of them were smarter than their neighbors who stayed home (e.g, many of the physicists involved in the Manhattan Project).

You think the scientists working on the Manhatten project emigrated to America??

Going back to the issue brought up by the initial poster: “The thing I want to know is in reality is there this massive gap between the Chinese Thais and the original Thais, and if so why is this the case?”

The simple answer is NO, there is not a massive gap between "Chineese Thais" and "Thais"

I was going to write more but cant be a55ed

[PvtDick]

It is impossible to generalize about Overseas Chinese, as there have been many waves over the centuries. There was a huge wave of impoverished "coolies" to the US in the 19th for example, but the profile of the immigrants who came in the mid to late 20th century is much different: better off, better educated, and so forth.

An interesting book on the Chinese diaspora is "Sons of the Yellow Emperor", by Lynn Pan.

[Boon Mee]

Don't mistake light-skinned Thai girls for Chinese.  Thai girls aren't necessarily dark skinned.  Just look at Ching Mai girls or even in Bangkok you'll find that a lot of girls are light but they dont have 'chinky' eyes.

Got to love it! Chinky eyes!

[dugdig]

There was a huge wave of impoverished "coolies" to the US in the 19th for example,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It might have been a huge wave from the american perspective but it wasn't even a ripple from the Chinese perspective.

[artao]

There was a huge wave of impoverished "coolies" to the US in the 19th for example,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It might have been a huge wave from the american perspective but it wasn't even a ripple from the Chinese perspective.

right.....

[cdnvic]

When that response get's back to 2004, he's gonna be pissed

[chinthee]

I was thinking the same thing. Seems we have a new member from China. Welcome

[artao]

When that response get's back to 2004, he's gonna be pissed

The thread should be pissed because anyone can response it back to 2004!

[chinthee]

When that response get's back to 2004, he's gonna be pissed

The thread should be pissed because anyone can response it back to 2004!

Would you like to revive the thread? Have any views on any of the posts?

[aznyron]

I don't mean to offend anyone here but I have been married to a Chinese Thai girl for 5 years (I am 27, she is 25) and she is the best wife ever. She comes from a good family (Mum works for Thai Government, Dad is Architect) and she's definitely not in it for the money as she earns twice as much as me and even bought us a superb house in Bangkok.

Having Chinese genes, she is very focused on business and self-improvement and works very hard (we both live in London).

However, when we go back to Thailand every year is astounds me the difference in work ethic between the Chinese Thai population and the original thais or Issan people. These people are almost exclusively the ones you find in the bar trade etc. When in thailand my wife and her family deliberately avoid these areas, and I can see the shame on the face of my Wife and her family. Indeed, in the UK when asked her nationality she will often refer to herself as 'Singaporean' instead of Thai because of the tw*ts who will make silly remarks, and in any case even in Thailand most people think she is foreign.

The thing I want to know is in reality is there this massive gap between the Chinese Thais and the original Thais, and if so why is this the case?

Any thoughtful replies welcomed, no flaming please

Well I was born in Brooklyn New York my mother is of italian ancestry does that make me a member of the mob well if given a choice I would have accepted that position since it is more honorable to be a member of the MAFIA then to be a slime ball politicion who hides behind the cloak of respectability and is wheeling and dealing with the devil so I say to my thai chinese ladies just be who you are hold your head in the air even if you have to sleep with men to support your family you are head & shoulders above any politician

[bino]

Rainman - is your wife's sister still single after almost 3 yrs?

[artao]

Would you like to revive the thread? Have any views on any of the posts?

She is a strange girl, and I can't understand her actions.

[chinthee]

Would you like to revive the thread? Have any views on any of the posts?

She is a strange girl, and I can't understand her actions.

Do you mean you can't understand that this Thai-Chinese girl would pretend to be Singaporean instead of Thai? I also don't think that is common. I've known lots of Thai-Chinese girls and they always tell everyone they're Thai, and I've never heard one of them say in differentiation, "I'm Thai-Chinese." They are all proud to be Thai, and probably think it's obvious to you they are Chinese. I actually knew one girl who was my secretary, and came from a Chiang Mai family and who looked 100% Chinese. One time we had some guests from Hong Kong and they kept insisting to her that she looked Chinese. She kept saying, "no, I'm Thai, never once referring to her ethnic roots.

I agree with one of the posters in the old thread who said that many status-seeking Farangs are quick to proclaim "I have a Thai girlfriend, but she's Thai-Chinese," in an attempt to make people think she is not a girl from the bars.

My opinion is that "Thai-Thai" girls who do not have Chinese blood, or much of it, do sometimes try harder to distance themselves from Isaan girls. And, they also often try harder to have higher moral values and work harder as a result.

[Heng]

Love these time travel threads.

[Pepe']

You realize the most expensive hookers in Bangkok are Chinese-Thai? Not to burst your bubble, but there's thousands if not more of them as well. They're just not in the regular bars where tourists go but in the high class "entertainment" complexes. My girlfriend is Isaan (from Ubon) however she could easily go for a darker skinned Chinese-Thai. Personally, i don't mind the skin color of my partner, as long as we match together.

Picture attached to show what i mean.

-----------------------------

Very romantic...

[Pepe']

I don't mean to offend anyone here but I have been married to a Chinese Thai girl for 5 years (I am 27, she is 25) and she is the best wife ever. She comes from a good family (Mum works for Thai Government, Dad is Architect) and she's definitely not in it for the money as she earns twice as much as me and even bought us a superb house in Bangkok.

Having Chinese genes, she is very focused on business and self-improvement and works very hard (we both live in London).

However, when we go back to Thailand every year is astounds me the difference in work ethic between the Chinese Thai population and the original thais or Issan people. These people are almost exclusively the ones you find in the bar trade etc. When in thailand my wife and her family deliberately avoid these areas, and I can see the shame on the face of my Wife and her family. Indeed, in the UK when asked her nationality she will often refer to herself as 'Singaporean' instead of Thai because of the tw*ts who will make silly remarks, and in any case even in Thailand most people think she is foreign.

The thing I want to know is in reality is there this massive gap between the Chinese Thais and the original Thais, and if so why is this the case?

Any thoughtful replies welcomed, no flaming please

Well I was born in Brooklyn New York my mother is of italian ancestry does that make me a member of the mob well if given a choice I would have accepted that position since it is more honorable to be a member of the MAFIA then to be a slime ball politicion who hides behind the cloak of respectability and is wheeling and dealing with the devil so I say to my thai chinese ladies just be who you are hold your head in the air even if you have to sleep with men to support your family you are head & shoulders above any politician

--------------------------

Agreed, especially when they're giving head...

[JimGant]

they always tell everyone they're Thai, and I've never heard one of them say in differentiation, "I'm Thai-Chinese."

In an interview awhile back, Tiger Woods' mom refered to herself as "Thai-Chinese." Interesting, but not nearly as much as how she would describe her new granddaughter.........

[chanchao]

I agree with one of the posters in the old thread who said that many status-seeking Farangs are quick to proclaim "I have a Thai girlfriend, but she's Thai-Chinese," in an attempt to make people think she is not a girl from the bars.

Any kind of qualification in that direction is so lame I can't find words for it.

Of course, I don't encounter it nearly as much as was claimed here in 2004.

[popshirt]

Pepe, cuidate mijo, you might get a vacation and it would be our loss.

Many of my Thai-Chinese friends are gay and find their families very oppressive, one having said to me recently that now that his father and mother have died, he is free to live his life at last; I have heard many variations on this theme.

My best friend is ethnic Thai and he recently entered the job market and declared he would not work for a Chinese-Thai because they were "cheap" and not for a Thai boss either because he/she would be "not up-to-date" (referring to management skills). When he and his recently graduated Thai friends get together they seem to agree on these points. Instead he sought out a position with a farang boss and is thrilled with his salary, rewards based on accomplishments and the increasing responsibility he is given.