Fake Degrees Work In Thailand!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

   Possibly because none of them would associate with someone who doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're," and who barely seems to understand punctuation at all?  I don't usually get all mechanics-nazi on people, but if you're going to slag the entire foreign teacher population you kinda deserve it...

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A good book I'd reckon . Unburdened by punctuation and the odd capital letter. It'll cost more to edit than to print.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

5555555! Couldn't resist. I've never made those fives before. It feels good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God ... and you aren't a newbie either 555555 Acclimatization at last

[tuktukmike]

This is an interesting post for me and the reason why?

I know quite a few teachers out here and i have to say that i can understand why farang teachers get such a bad reputation.

Several of the ones i know go out drinking until the early hours of the morning and then go home shower and into school.

Last weekend the whole band got drunk and ended the night fighting in the town which led to one getting sacked.

I do know there are good teachers out here but i would have to say a degree does not make the man/woman behave in any particular way as you are either out here wanting to teach or you are just using teaching to stay in Thailand.

By the way my wife is a teacher out here and sometimes she feels ashamed by the actions of other teachers, but there are just as many good teachers we meet degree or no degree.

mike.

[Neeranam]

Outside of Bangkok (generally in the not so popular provinces) it's still possible to get a WP without a degree, if you have the backing of the prinicipal (and the MoE is willing to play ball1).

I believe that if you work for a government school you don't need a degree as there is no need for the MOE to give a teacher's license.

I have done this at one school in the past up-country - no teacher's license, up to the director.

[brianbrain]

Outside of Bangkok (generally in the not so popular provinces) it's still possible to get a WP without a degree, if you have the backing of the prinicipal (and the MoE is willing to play ball1).

I believe that if you work for a government school you don't need a degree as there is no need for the MOE to give a teacher's license.

I have done this at one school in the past up-country - no teacher's license, up to the director.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I phoned one up-country school very recently to enquire about a teaching job. The advertisement stated a requirement for a degree AND teaching certificate. Not unusual I know, but I thought it would be worth a quick telephone call to check. The guy in charge explained that his MOE office interpret the rules as teachers must have a teaching certificate. No exceptions. So in this instance, my master's degree, various professional qualifications, and two years teaching experience (with a WP) were of no value. I guess they'll have to wait for someone with fake certificates to apply........

[PeaceBlondie]

Outside of Bangkok (generally in the not so popular provinces) it's still possible to get a WP without a degree, if you have the backing of the prinicipal (and the MoE is willing to play ball1).

I believe that if you work for a government school you don't need a degree as there is no need for the MOE to give a teacher's license.

I have done this at one school in the past up-country - no teacher's license, up to the director.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like you two posters are talking about different things - getting a WP without a degree, and getting a teacher's license (TL) without the degree.

Government schools apparently don't require TL. They should GET you a WP, but upcountry they may not know how to. I don't doubt that in some provinces where the director of the govt. school is well connected with the labor officials, you could knowingly get a WP without a degree, above board. In my province, even the labor dept. doesn't seem to know how to get a WP for a teacher. Mai bpen rai, I guess, even though the thaivisa.com information says the school can be fined 60,000. BTWay, I find nothing on that information on the front page that tells about TEACHERS getting work permits. Like the labor dept.'s 'One Stop Service' handbook, it appears to say nothing about teachers.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm posting in this thread, not mainly to respond to above, but to do the following:

1. Kudos to Darknight for nipping yet ANOTHER moronic thread about fake degrees in the bud;

2. Suggest to Ken, our local mod, as well as our many readers, that to avoid all the trolling that goes on about fake degrees in Thailand that we make it a local room policy here in the Teacher's Forum that unless someone has a really, really good new angle on the subject that all future posts on the matter should be kept here (or in one of the other 5-8 past threads already open on the topic). New threads on the topic without any new point should be, I suggest, summarily closed with reference to this thread, out of policy. Does this sound like a good idea?

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

People ask I answer, I'm not going to jump to conclusions as to who's a troll (or who's trolling) and who isn't until I'm sure. I'll leave the moral side of things to others!

But I'll merge other enquiries with this thread and/or delete them as you've suggested mate. Is that okay?

But I forgot the spamming rule and should have deleted the link! My mistake for sure!

Edited January 6, 2005 by kenkannif

[Ijustwannateach]

Sounds cool to me, Ken- I'm not saying that you call them trolls (at least .01% of these threads might even be legit... ) but to keep them from mushrooming gratuitously as they tend to do just put it all in one big thread- unless somebody's got some new angle. Otherwise each time this kinda thread scrolls its way down off the main board somebody's gonna open a new one, I just know it...

But maybe that's too much too much. Anyway, cheers!

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

Gotcha! Shall keep my eyes peeled, but a kick up the bum is appreciated (i.e. don't actually kick me, just let me know )

[dr_Pat_Pong]

This thread is becoming MORE trite. Gimmee a good reason not to close it

[Ijustwannateach]

I wouldn't mind- but as I was trying to point out, people *will* keep opening these "fake degree" threads- it's one of those topics for teachers in Thailand that never goes away. So I was suggesting to make this the one place for that kind of discussion, and close all *other* threads that open to discuss it. Just my 2 bits.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

I'll beg you not to close it Dr PP! As Stephen says it's better than the same old thread being started again time after time after time!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I'll beg you not to close it Dr PP! As Stephen says it's better than the same old thread being started again time after time after time!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You need a new hobby Ken. Maybe a degree mill in KS Road

[taxidriver]

Maybe it should be closed. The question was answered in the first few posts anyway. It's always gonna be asked as THIS IS THAILAND and people are'nt always gonna search every thing before starting a topic. Alot of good threads get closed on this site anyway, especially in general topics (farangs don't have much of a voice in Thailand as it is, even on Thai-related sites it seems). Close it and it will be asked again in the future, lalala, whatever. Scraping the barrel isn't better than new topics regardless of whether they have been discussed before or not.

[mouse]

LITTLE OFF THE MAIN TOPIC BUT...

Factual, although obviously it's wrong, and bad and leaves you open to being deported, fined and/or imprisoned, etc.

With the upcoming Thai election I recently picked up one of the candidates brochure that boasted of the persons Doctorate in XXXX received from an American University, located in a particular State. Quite out of curiousity and due to coming from that state and never having heard of this school, I did a little detective work on the Internet. Seems that the candidate in question either got duped and subsequently bilked for a substantial amount or willingly accepted a fake degree from a fake University. Wonder if they will deport the QUACK DOCTOR when they find out?

[mbkudu]

I'm really not sure what all this fake degree stuff is about. Any institution worth it's salt that is going to hire you will want official unopened transcripts. If the Ministry of Education is only looking at degrees and not transcripts, then they simply don't care whether the degree is fake or not; they just need it to process paperwork.

[Ijustwannateach]

The thing is, most Thai schools don't allow enough lead time (planning) to hire teachers- it's all done at the last moment, sometimes filling positions with only one person interviewed- 'cause they offer low wages and therefore have to take whoever's desperate enough to walk through the door. If they looked these gift horses in the mouth *too* closely (with regard to qualifications) they'd have no foreigner willing to work there at all. Thai schools know that many of their workers are dodgy, and don't feel like looking too closely (also neatly avoids the work permit problem a lot of the time).

The problem is when REAL teachers wanting REAL jobs with REAL work permits try to find work here.... the salaries are depressed and the paperwork is ignored because of the situation....

On the other hand, many of these schools will never be able to pay a salary for ANY truly qualified teacher (unless he's working for charity). So I don't go with the purists who say that every TEFLer should have a degree, official teaching experience, etc., etc., either. The problem is how to find the happy medium for all cases. That's what my interview thread about how to avoid the loser schools (now buried deep below) was for.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

In case anyone was interested, I count about 9 different threads (including this one) in the room dedicated mainly to the topic of whether or not one should have a degree to teach. That's about one per page of topics- better than I expected... but a good argument I think to keep this one open.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

How many schools are asking for transcripts when hiring BA (not B.Ed.) candidates that they're going to pay 30K salaries to? Granted, if they're hiring you for a specialty (science, math, IT) they at least want to see you earned the appropriate degree. Some degrees show the major academic field on them.

Some folks from the UK say there's no such thing as a transcript from their alma mater. Mine are illegible, and almost unobtainable. Think about it: I'm here and my school's there. It would really be time-consuming and maybe expensive to get the right form, sign it, send it back, and have them mail it in. Three weeks minimum.

Nobody's asked to see my transcript yet, but I'm in the provinces. Besides, after graduating BA, I earned accounting and business credits at at least four more universities, sometimes only one course. It's a nightmare even finding the address of some of those places. Are they even going to believe there's an Oscar Rose Community College in Oklahoma City? Or SOCJC (South Oklahoma City Junior College), commonly known as "Sock Jock." But I'm not apply to a postgraduate course. Once you're started a career here and begun to establish a reputation, you get offers without regard to what grade you got in Doctor Darling's chemistry course in 1960 (I failed; he invented liquid dishwasher).

[mbkudu]

In case anyone was interested, I count about 9 different threads (including this one) in the room dedicated mainly to the topic of whether or not one should have a degree to teach.  That's about one per page of topics- better than I expected...  but a good argument I think to keep this one open.

"Steven"

Requiring an English teacher, teaching English as a second language, to have a BA degree is like asking a tow truck driver for his Phd. before he's allowed to operate.

A CELTA or TEFL should be plenty for a decent foundation to start this business. I'm not talking about teaching native speakers in international schools or university students at Chula; I'm talking about letting decent teachers with TEFLS

or CELTAS have work permits and pay taxes into the system without worrying if the cops are going to bum rush his little language school in Siam. If the MOE let them have work permits, the government would make revenue from taxes, no?

Otherwise, they are working tax free. Really though, I'm just barking at airplanes

by saying this here because it's ultimately up to the guvment.

Edited January 19, 2005 by mbkudu

[kenkannif]

^ Spot on mate! Like I've said before they should have some kind of tier system here in regards to teachers and their qualifications! But Thailand does seem to like to bite off the nose, to spite the face!

[Ijustwannateach]

I've said on at least 2 or 3 of the assorted previous threads about degrees and TEFL that common sense is needed. Here's my assessment about requirements:

SKILLS/QUALIFICATIONS

TEFL

OUTSIDE BANGKOK: Anything goes. Let them get teachers who have ANY proficiency in the language, and they'll be doing better probably than what the local Thai English teachers can do. A TEFL would be desirable, a degree would be great, but you gotta live with what ya got sometimes.

INSIDE BANGKOK: Since the market can bear a bit more discrimination here, I'd say require at LEAST a TEFL (or equivalent experience- let's say 2 years of teaching or more?) *or* a college degree preferably in humanities or education, with *preference* given to teachers with *both*. Oh, and they should be from an official list of English-native-speaking nations, which would probably not include either the Netherlands or the Philippines (sorry!).

SUBJECT TEACHING

ANYWHERE

Anywhere subject teaching is involved, I think some college experience is required- preferably a finished degree- in related experience (for example, having a physics/engineering degree would probably allow you to teach high school maths, and biology/psychology majors could deal with health), with preference given to those with a degree in the subject. Naturally teaching experience is also desirable. Candidates should also demonstrate above-average English proficiency (since these *are* English programs we're talking about, even if in a variety of subjects).

MISCELLANEOUS

And, as a final note for screening candidates and a safety for the school and students in the contract, I'd say there should be a requirement that within 6 months of joining the candidate has to provide a police report from home demonstrating that there are no serious criminal offenses in his background [and yes, this would be a hassle that I wouldn't personally welcome, either]. If he can't, then the school could reserve the right to terminate his employment at that time. Otherwise, if there's any trouble, the school's really to blame.

Anything particularly unreasonable about the above?

"Steven"

[Neeranam]

I'm really not sure what all this fake degree stuff is about. Any institution worth it's salt that is going to hire you will want official unopened transcripts. If the Ministry of Education is only looking at degrees and not transcripts, then they simply don't care whether the degree is fake or not; they just need it to process paperwork.

I heard that there were not any transcrips before 95 in the UK??

[kenkannif]

I think you're right mate although it might even be later than '95 as my Sister graduated later than that and didn't get a transcript (in fact her degree is a right state, all wonky and crap looking even though it is a real one), I've not got a transcript and neither has any of my mates (although most of these apply pre '95!).

[mbkudu]

Maybe transcripts are a North American thing. I had no idea about Britain.

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm sure you could fake a transcript more easily than faking a diploma. Most of the transcripts from the 8 or so universities I've attended don't look real.

[Scallywag]

I feel really sad for the Thai children who are being taught sub standard English by sub standard teachers. Most of which are doing it because they cannot do anything else.

Sooner they bugger off the better.

[Neeranam]

I feel really sad for the Thai children who are being taught sub standard English by sub standard teachers. Most of which are doing it because they cannot do anything else.

Sooner they bugger off the better.

Sooner you bugger off the better.

You don't have a frigigng clue what you are speaking about.

[thaidancer]

If you have $10,000 and you know the right people you can get a legit degree from a certain southern Ontario University.

[Neeranam]

I can think of a few guys that might check you out, but i think this thread will be closed by the mods.

There's no such thing as an authentic fake.