Sin Sod Again

[Tod Daniels]

This next one surprised me though as so many Thai culture "experts" on here are fond of saying that a previously married woman gets nothing. She is previously married, has a child and is semi litterate, the husband to be is paying 50,000 plus some gold (amount not known yet).

Just an update for all those that think sin sod only applies to Westerners.

Sadly all that shows is that stupidity knows no racial or country boundaries nothing more.

Women that were previously married (even if only by the 'dog and pony show' aka a thai wedding) especially one's with ANY children are seen as "second-hand", "gently-used", (insert your own descriptive term) and don't usually get any sin-sod.

The mind wobbles at some of the sin-sod amounts I have seen foreigners pay families of semi literate P.3 drop outs, with a 100% thai rug-rat or two in tow as well.

I guess it's all in the name of "face" for the family. Another instance of "thai-culture", except I forgot; there is no culture here, just generations of mindless brainwashing.

[hhgz]

This subject has been beaten to death and yet, farangs keep at it. In my opinion, if my daughter was going to marry a dullard, I'd insist on at least 500,000.

[Pakeha]

To the OP.

What do you make of all this feedback? Has it assisted your query or just confused matters?

It seems we've wound up in a moral debate... as always... which I know you weren't interested in.

As you will see from my above post I won't be paying any sinsod. But if you feel it is a normal tradition with your tgf's family and you don't personally have any problem with it... and you truly love the woman I'd say 100,000 baht is a bargain.

Good luck.

All you moral high grounders are truly narrow minded. I suppose you are also the group that snub the squat toilet

Edit: Just noticed the OP has been banned. Case closed. No more answers needed for him then eh.

Edited March 8, 2009 by byoung2

[Isee]

All you moral high grounders are truly narrow minded. I suppose you are also the group that snub the squat toilet

The squat toilet taught me why its not so bad to wai people in return instead of giving them a handshake.

[Pakeha]

All you moral high grounders are truly narrow minded. I suppose you are also the group that snub the squat toilet

The squat toilet taught me why its not so bad to wai people in return instead of giving them a handshake.

And if you're eating sticky rice...

[neverdie]

There is so much rubbish that goes on with this subject and similar ones. Let me tell you, I will normally go along with most things, even if it is just to humour the natives, but let me tell you this.

This sin sod stuff is their culture, not mine & since I'm 50% of the party getting married (& the 50% with the paeso), I'm not playing that game. I will of course be happy to pay for the wedding, the food, the drinks & all that sort of stuff, but I'm not caughing up cash or gold to play this game FULL STOP.

There are other games I will play but this aint one of them & if the natives don't like it, they can climb into their tractor & ride off into the sunset....fine by me...don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out.

anyway, back to you lot, flame away

[Underbelly]

I didnt pay any sinsod, we actually got money from my inlaws

[Pakeha]

There is so much rubbish that goes on with this subject and similar ones. Let me tell you, I will normally go along with most things, even if it is just to humour the natives, but let me tell you this.

This sin sod stuff is their culture, not mine & since I'm 50% of the party getting married (& the 50% with the paeso), I'm not playing that game. I will of course be happy to pay for the wedding, the food, the drinks & all that sort of stuff, but I'm not caughing up cash or gold to play this game FULL STOP.

There are other games I will play but this aint one of them & if the natives don't like it, they can climb into their tractor & ride off into the sunset....fine by me...don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out.

anyway, back to you lot, flame away

Fair play. How about my post? Post 56. You know how much I like my face!!! Cmon ND. Help a junior out

[neverdie]

byoung, once again, don't take this the wrong way, as I have previously mentioned I am a fan of your posts, generally.

You don't have a face! <deleted> are you talking about. Are you actually talking about your mother in laws face or what?

I fully understand the situation you are in, but lets face it, your already taking care of the old girl, arnt you, I'm assume the old man is dead. You are the only farang in this family of yours?

Sorry a couple of TV members have PMed me about this, one of them just posted the other day to say he was married and all went well.....take a deep breath and tackle this one with a good dose of common sense. Whats the rest of the family doing for the old lady now, huh? I really believe you don't have a face to worry about, you didnt have one before you came to thailand and you havent just grown one either.

Lets examine what you are doing for the old girl, lets think about that & how her 'face' is already lookin sweet! What is it that YOU want to give her for this special occassion?

[Pakeha]

I was thinking I'd just package you up and hand you over... Two birds with one stone - sinsod in the form of a new man and then you can look after her...

Alright for arguments sake let's say I have no face... Would a token gesture (flowers etc) be taken well or is that just taking the pizz?

[Maizefarmer]

My future wifes family have asked for 100K is this reasonable. Oh and do I get it back or NOT.

Has anyone ever got it back.

The amount asked for is secondary to how it was asked for - things like, are you been constantly hasseled for it, is it been presented to you as a condition of marrige ...... and a whole bunch of "un-saids' related to it are all issues that many folk worry over. There is no set amount - a lot of issues and circumstances have to be considered, and without knowing all those its hard for anyone to comment accurately, except to say that by ex-pat standards, I'd say consider yourself financily lucky to be getting away with just 100k.

Will you see it again? - traditionaly, the practise is to return to the couple (in a roundabout and discreet way) pretty much what is needed to get home life up and going. I know ex-pats who have seen much of it returned, and expats who have seen none of it returned. Who knows in your case.

Just remember what its about: its a gesture of your sincerity/committment and willingness to accept responsibility.

All the best.

[neverdie]

I was thinking I'd just package you up and hand you over... Two birds with one stone - sinsod in the form of a new man and then you can look after her...

Alright for arguments sake let's say I have no face... Would a token gesture (flowers etc) be taken well or is that just taking the pizz?

I'd probably go too byoung, got a pic of the old gurl....are her teeth missing .

Sure a token guesture would be really nice, thais dont go much for flowers, I just went and had dinner & I had a thought (& they dont come very often) but I was thinking about your situation. My uncle next door has a few pictures of HRM, which hang on the wall of his house, as most thai houses do but these ones are like a gold plated impression of his face, do you understand what I mean, they are really nice and the thais love them, they are about 45cm x 70cm (approx), don't worry they're not real gold and most thai people will hold them very dear to the heart. I could try and find out where he bought them? She will carry it strutting around the wedding like a pig in <deleted> .

I can always hide in her room as a surprise gift i luv the grannies

[CrossBones]

Here is some good advice.

If you are going to go for it, and agree to pay the Sin Sod - then do it with PRIDE and NO RELUCTANCE or EMBARRASSMENT.

If you reluctantly give sin sod without "Nam Jai" then it really is a waste of money and a total insult to the family, weather you like it or not.

[ozzieovaseas]

Funny you should mention the figure of 100k, as ii was at my local bar the other day (family owned business) and was sitting with the father, feasting on red wine and garam cigarettes (which he shouted!) when he casually says i could have his daughter for 100k...

Having ogled her boobs many times (as you do) and procrastinating whether they must have been payed for (at least 33dd) i was for one moment wondering if this might have been a fair price as i know that an Aussie girl would be at least $10,000 to have a job like these..

So after fantasizing for a brief second i say in my best Bee Gees voice "ARIA NAAAA!!??"

then he says he was only joking.

I think sin sod is like auctioning your house...i would NEVER do it

PS. Dear Mister Neverdie...if she is indeed a 100k kid would little mr neverdie rise to the occasion!!?? i know you crumble under pressure!!

[ozzieovaseas]

Funny you should mention the figure of 100k, as ii was at my local bar the other

CORRECTION...night!!

[neverdie]

Ozzie,

You crack me up NOW GIVE YOURSELF AN UPPERCUT!

Your advice is odd to me & I once swore I would never Auction a house either until my last property, where an agent (I know this agent) told me it was the only way to go for certain properties. The agent asked me to state my real asking price for the property, I wasnt sure but I had a figure in my head, so I thought I would see how I go by adding 100k to my asking price & tell her. After a brief moment the agent said, we can do better at auction. So I did it, had a 6 week advert campaigne, I wanted 700k, told the agent 800k, the auction went like a storm & upon good advice I passed the property in at auction & THEN the after auction began & the property was sold within 48 hours, for more than 200k over what I originally wanted for it.....& I know you are thinking that I wasnt in touch with my local market, but I would bet both my boys that I was.... And Im not talking baht.....moral to the story, you can instantly rule one thing out for all situations.....HOW THIS STORY RELATES TO SIN SOT (it doesnt)

but I guess you could say all situations for sin sot vary too, afterall it goes back a very very long way & really has very little relevance to todays lifestyle, irregardless of what the hungry in laws might like to make you think.

Edited March 8, 2009 by neverdie

[ozzieovaseas]

Ozzie,

You crack me up NOW GIVE YOURSELF AN UPPERCUT!

Your advice is odd to me & I once swore I would never Auction a house either until my last property, where an agent (I know this agent) told me it was the only way to go for certain properties. The agent asked me to state my real asking price for the property, I wasnt sure but I had a figure in my head, so I thought I would see how I go by adding 100k to my asking price & tell her. After a brief moment the agent said, we can do better at auction. So I did it, had a 6 week advert campaigne, I wanted 700k, told the agent 800k, the auction went like a storm & upon good advice I passed the property in at auction & THEN the after auction began & the property was sold within 48 hours, for more than 200k over what I originally wanted for it.....& I know you are thinking that I wasnt in touch with my local market, but I would bet both my boys that I was.... And Im not talking baht.....moral to the story, you can instantly rule one thing out for all situations.....HOW THIS STORY RELATES TO SIN SOT (it doesnt)

but I guess you could say all situations for sin sot vary too, afterall it goes back a very very long way & really has very little relevance to todays lifestyle, irregardless of what the hungry in laws might like to make you think.

*** self Uppercut given...sh_t!!!

You've done well with your real estate dealings, so i gather you were were in Syd,Bris, or maybe brissie when the market was good...you could have easily been duped by a real estate agent who promised you the Earth, employed god knows what other sort of dodgy tactics, and not sold the property, and left you with a heap of fee's.Heard all the stories before, glad that you were on the good side of the fence and in that regard we can be happy are smiling in the land thereof..

Nothing to do with sin sod either, but i guess as far as that goes the market is only dictated by how much someone is willing to pay..

and I , like you , am willing to pay SWEET BUGGER all for a Thai woman that will only probably cause me lots of stress and the equivalent loss of hair/money ratio!!

I have bigger all hair now and im only 38

GRRRR

[ozzieovaseas]

Ozzie,

You crack me up NOW GIVE YOURSELF AN UPPERCUT!

Your advice is odd to me & I once swore I would never Auction a house either until my last property, where an agent (I know this agent) told me it was the only way to go for certain properties. The agent asked me to state my real asking price for the property, I wasnt sure but I had a figure in my head, so I thought I would see how I go by adding 100k to my asking price & tell her. After a brief moment the agent said, we can do better at auction. So I did it, had a 6 week advert campaigne, I wanted 700k, told the agent 800k, the auction went like a storm & upon good advice I passed the property in at auction & THEN the after auction began & the property was sold within 48 hours, for more than 200k over what I originally wanted for it.....& I know you are thinking that I wasnt in touch with my local market, but I would bet both my boys that I was.... And Im not talking baht.....moral to the story, you can instantly rule one thing out for all situations.....HOW THIS STORY RELATES TO SIN SOT (it doesnt)

but I guess you could say all situations for sin sot vary too, afterall it goes back a very very long way & really has very little relevance to todays lifestyle, irregardless of what the hungry in laws might like to make you think.

*** self Uppercut given...sh_t!!!

You've done well with your real estate dealings, so i gather you were were in Syd,Bris, or maybe brissie when the market was good...you could have easily been duped by a real estate agent who promised you the Earth, employed god knows what other sort of dodgy tactics, and not sold the property, and left you with a heap of fee's.Heard all the stories before, glad that you were on the good side of the fence and in that regard we can be happy are smiling in the land thereof..

Nothing to do with sin sod either, but i guess as far as that goes the market is only dictated by how much someone is willing to pay..

and I , like you , am willing to pay SWEET BUGGER all for a Thai woman that will only probably cause me lots of stress and the equivalent loss of hair/money ratio!!

I have bigger all hair now and im only 38

GRRRR

Another correction..and another uppercut...Sh_t...

I meant Sydney or melb, or even Brissie..when market taking off?..not so long ago either..I lived in North coast NSW but had investment property in Hobart which did well...

anyway enough of that..

sorry to be rude to others..back to Sin sot

[neverdie]

Yes I am hearing you Ozzie.....ohh and ur right about the sheilas too, in my opinion a man is better off with a good old tractor than a sheila.....but if one of those mods comes in here, theyre gonna slap us around, especially if its one of the sheilas

But Sin Sot goes back a very long way & not all thais practise this anymore either, so its interesting to watch a heap of farangs get all worked up about it.

Many times I get this explanation, "This is what we do, thai people do it this way" & I say, well thats nice, but I'm a farangen & I do it this way & since Im the one payin the bills we're doin it my way today (He with the paeso has the say so!) Don't get me wrong, its give and take, some things their way, some mine.....I didnt sign a paper on the way in that said GIVE GIVE GIVE GIVE, did you?

[ozzieovaseas]

Yes I am hearing you Ozzie.....ohh and ur right about the sheilas too, in my opinion a man is better off with a good old tractor than a sheila.....but if one of those mods comes in here, theyre gonna slap us around, especially if its one of the sheilas

But Sin Sot goes back a very long way & not all thais practise this anymore either, so its interesting to watch a heap of farangs get all worked up about it.

Many times I get this explanation, "This is what we do, thai people do it this way" & I say, well thats nice, but I'm a farangen & I do it this way & since Im the one payin the bills we're doin it my way today (He with the paeso has the say so!) Don't get me wrong, its give and take, some things their way, some mine.....I didnt sign a paper on the way in that said GIVE GIVE GIVE GIVE, did you?

well im reluctant to sign anything without reading the fine print..

and from what ive heard thailand is famous for writing the fine print in invisible ink...

but there is one dilemna i am wondering about, though i should PM you as the moddy doddys mightnt like it

[neverdie]

Hey Ozzie, the PM is the Personal Message, you can go in there and do anything you like....thats where I plan all my 'hits' on the various mods in this thread.....slowly working my way thru the group .

You can do anything in PM, swear, have sex , anything, sometimes I just PM myself just for the fun of it ....sometimes I even have sex with myself, but i wont go into those details, its kind of private, just between little neverdie and me......pssst "He gets embarrased easily"

Edited March 8, 2009 by neverdie

[MrHammer]

Ok yet another thread about sinsod ... I spent a lot of time reading through them and trying to find all sorts of informations about it because I am currently wondering how to feel about the way my thai wedding seems to be going to happen. And yet I didn't find my answer yet so let me present it to you and please give me some feedback.

My girlfriend is 26 like I am, she is from Isaan part of Thailand. She comes from a farmer family, which is quite poor. She has a university degree and had a good job which she quit to visit me for 3 months. We love each other very much and just a few weeks ago, I decided to propose her.

I have been married to a thai woman before (whose parents didn't ask for sinsod because they liked me), and know quite a lot about their culture, but still in this situation i am lost.

When came the moment to discuss the sinsod, which I thought of mainly as a symbol of "readiness" for marriage and, like many wrote in forums, a matter of "face", I proposed (my mistake, maybe) 400,000 baht + gold. It seemed high to me but the reason was that her 2 sisters, married to a thai guy, seemingly paid the same amount (and I don't understand how they managed to with thai wages). When announcing it to the mother, she said she would give half back. That is still a 200,000 baht dowry that goes out of my purse.

Thinking it altogether, I think I have shown that I am responsible and can take care of their daughter. I paid for her plane tickets and cared for her when she quit her job to visit me, as I think this is fair seeing the difference in wages in thai/europe, and considering it as a good step for our future. Here, I am also supposed to pay for the plane tickets involved again, support her while she's in Thailand, pay for the gold, the thai ceremony, maybe another ceremony in Belgium.

I am trying my best to respect Thai culture but when I sum up all I have to respond for, it reaches kind of all I could save up to now. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to me that her parents understand the situation or care about helping/giving back most of the dowry like I could read on many posts.

That seems a bit too much to me and to what I could read, I have seen no case (except old man marrying young woman maybe) where such a dowry had to be paid. My girlfriends says she would like our families to be warm, but after this I rather feel very cold with them. I am not sure how to react. I talked to my girlfriend a lot but it seems important to her to "respect traditions" and it seems to be "the very average in the village". It's hard to believe when you see how poor these people are.

Any opinion?

oh man..

I find it hard to believe that someone who clearly is intelligent enough to master english as a second language as well as you, can not see that you are being fleeced here.. sorry..

400.000 K baht for a poor farmers girls from Isaan and you are the same age?

You are 26 years old and they expect you to pay what is already a large sum in Europe!

Jebus christ, they should be paying you for giving her a chance at a life she would never had otherwise. I think its incredibly unconsiderate and downright despiccable, how they try to milk you instead of being happy for their daughter.

I think you have some talking to do with your girlfriend.

[MrHammer]

If your finances are a bit tight/you had to quit Thailand because you couldn't cut it here/or you got ripped off by your local spouse or partner (that nevermind you had half the say in beginning and developing the relationship) = log onto TV and whinge about sinsod as much as possible.

To be fair, there is also a lot of whinging about the massive amount of whores in this country.

[yabaaaa]

The sin-sod is mostly a practice of the higher classes for business reasons and if average people begin demanding this, it`s usually a con.

If my wife`s parents would have asked me for a sin-sod I would have told them to, sod off.

There are Thai families that have made seperating a Farang from his assets into an industry. Money is conned from the idiot in stages so as not to make the scam appear too obvious. The sin-sod normally being the first stage leading up to the buying of gold, vehicles, land, properties or businesses in the Thai`s name.

Fools never listen to advice or use comon sense, they only learn from experience.

How about the creation of 2 new forums. First one for those who have fallen hopelessly in love with these scammers and are just begiining the parting of their assets process and a second for those who have lost everything after the scammers have finished with them, describing their sad tales as to how they ended up.

And third the ones who lived happily ever after (the majority in my opinion).............take it from your post you didn't?

[Richard W]

And third the ones who lived happily ever after (the majority in my opinion).............take it from your post you didn't?

Would this one be for widowers?

[Heng]

If your finances are a bit tight/you had to quit Thailand because you couldn't cut it here/or you got ripped off by your local spouse or partner (that nevermind you had half the say in beginning and developing the relationship) = log onto TV and whinge about sinsod as much as possible.

To be fair, there is also a lot of whinging about the massive amount of whores in this country.

That would fall into category 3 of my generalization above. Most who choose to select as life partners those who have pretty much chosen a career path which is at the absolute rock bottom of the concept of natural selection can pretty much expect for their lives to hover at, below, or maybe only slightly above that level. Whinging about sinsod in those cases is almost inevitable and at best extremely common.

[Kf6vci]

Try to safe face. there will be another opportunity to hand over money - Tong Mun (spelling ?). At my wedding, this meant a ceremony in the family circle at which 4 Baht of Gold and many 1000 Baht notes were handed over. The family then tied banknotes to our wrists. Please note: it all came back So why not splash out on this ceremony and reduce the sin sod?

I know an American professor who is rich. 100,000 were paid and the wife is having a career of her own with a good education.

Be creative, maybe pay for them all to attend. Make something symbolic, with wai-ing and bowing.

FYI, guests' gifts exceeded the cost of the whole wedding. This is not a one-way street.

[Heng]

There are plenty of ways to save face and not lose your shirt. Just put down things of value that are of no value (title deeds, stock certs, Omsin bonds in your name, if you have collections of old mint/plastic encased currency, things like that...) to the inlaws, but still show you haven't spent your life -and don't come from a line of similar folks- pissing into the wind, if you're worried they are going to do a runner out the back door during the morning ceremony.

The issue Hengthinks is that an awful lot of guys only have a few more shirts than the one they need to wear to the wedding ceremony. Hence... it's better to appear/get angry at the concept and culture and "save face" (you'd be surprised how many folks who rant about "face" try to save face themselves).

p.s. don't get too creative and start doing things like writing rubber checks for a billion bucks or putting down a poster of the Sultan of Brunei's yacht... you CAN if it's all in fun and everyone's in on it, but part of the spirit of the sin sod is to show your OWN accomplishments (and perhaps that your family is at the same or higher social level than theirs is... and hence you are a "good" match). IMO for most poor Issan families, just showing that you own ONE home in the west and have the title deed to it would be plenty.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Heng

[TonySoprano]

My wife never asked for sin sod but she is very independent minded and I guess the fact that she is an only child with one parent already in the grave played a role in that decision. If she had asked me to do the sin sod thing, I would have not hesitated to say yes, the reason is because I trust that she has my best interest at heart, and all experiences so far have proved this to be correct.

If you do not have the same confidence in your wife, then why are you getting married? Your wife should put your interests above her family's, if she does not, then why would you even consider marrying her?

[loong]

Showing you are willing to muck in/share on a regular basis for a long time gains you face/acceptance

I think that's complete and utter <deleted>.

'Acceptance'? You're kidding right?

How long have you lived in Thailand? Let me know when the honeymoon period is over. Then try scratching below the surface of Thai culture just a little. It's surprising what you learn.

Many Thais are good and concerned hosts, they will worry that the amenities that their homes offer will be unacceptable to a Farang. It means a lot to them if the visitor shows no discomfort and can fit in.

Remember, she can take your sin-sod and marry you today and leave you tomorrow. No come back at all. You lose every penny / cent / satong in that case.

A girl in this village married a Thai guy. The night of the wedding, her, the sin sod and the gold had disappeared! She forgot to take her child from previous relationship with her though!

I've not married my gf, we live together. If we did decide to get married, I would certainly not pay a sin sod. I'm taking care of the gf, her 2 kids and a niece and there is always something to spend my money on. I'm not going to give away money that could be used to improve my family's life.

When the daughter from my gf's sister got married, the husband (Thai) paid 50,000 Baht. He then moved in with the family and handed over his wages every month to his mother-in-law. Crazy.