New Thai Prime Minister Faces Investigation Bangkok, Sept 29

[scyriacus]

What are your views on Preah Vihaer? Do you agree with Sondhi Limthongkul's postion that it is worth going to war against Cambodia over this issue? Or do i get the same deafening silence whenever i ask PAD supporters a uncomfortable question?

it is not sondhi who faces investigation here as a war criminal, but 'pm' somchai for violating the constitution which he has sworn to defend (and not 'amend'). 'hows it goin' will get less deafening silence when he stays on topic. ask uncomfortable questions to the vote buyers, power brokers and their corrupt clique. ask the toxin-appointed would-be pm, if he does not know the thai constitution or if he simply wants to neglect it? deafening silence?

[JetsetBkk]

I have many times posted

yes... indeed you have... 4,662 posts under just one of your old ID's alone.

[Howsitgoin]

ask uncomfortable questions to the vote buyers, power brokers and their corrupt clique. ask the toxin-appointed would-be pm, if he does not know the thai constitution or if he simply wants to neglect it? deafening silence?

Pure polemics.

On Bangkokpundit's site you can see in one of his articles a link to a few numbers that have shown that PPP has actually spent far less on "vote-buying" than some other parties. Also i would like to refer you to a very important research by Andrew Walker, that came to very different conclusions about "vote-buying", and its effects than you imply here. Prof. Ungpakorn also wrote some interesting papers on the subject (and he definately cannot be accused of being a Thaksinite!) You should read some of that.

The government has every right to amend the constitution, if they can get a majority for it. Amending constitution is part of the democratic process. On the other hand - PAD has trampled over the constitution some of their members have even helped writing, and with their "new politics" intend to completely get rid of it even, as none of their outlandish demands that came up in the inane "New Politics" debate is covered by the constitution.

And of course, i will continue to get evasive answers on my question over Sondhi L.'s ideas of going to war against Cambodia, or deafening silence. To be honest, i didn't expect any else. This is just part of cult like groups to behave that way

By the way - Sondhi and other PAD leaders face charges for treason, arrest warrants are still valid, and they still have refused to surrender to the court. These charges are far more serious than anything Somchai are charged with. Actually, so far he hasn't been charged for anything, he is under investigation. Hmmm...

[scyriacus]

but they are obviously helpless in the 'war against corruption'.

What are you on about?

Quoting from "en.wikipedia.org" has very little relevance how things are done in Thailand, sad enough and needs to be discussed especially when your link on the Tak Bai incident failed to come up with any article

sorry, the text editor included the ) in the link, please delete the ) in wiki and voila!

The drug war killings were deplorable, unfortunately though we will never see any investigation into these. The Surayudh government installed committee has made sure to close that chapter for ever, and you can't honestly expect that this government here will do much about it. ....(hint - research who said what about these killings and therefore gave legitimacy to this). toxin

This will go to the dustbox of history like every other previous massacre in Thai history (6th October and aftermath, Vietnamese boatpeople, Black may, etc. - none ever investigated), and without doubt where future massacres will go into as well.

2004 is recent and only a cynic can put 85 dead in a dustbox, the optimist tries to prevent this for the future.

Tak Bai? Nobody has shown any interest in bringing the guilty parties to court, and also not the Surayudh government. Ironically, the commanding officer received the only punishment under Thaksin's rule - a whopping transfer to a desk job. .... it ain't just Thaksin that is wrong with this place.

no, it is not toxin alone - it is what thai people call Thaksinocracy (Thai: ระบอบทักษิณ Rabob Thaksin). he changes names (pm, parties, politics) more often than some their underwear. let's fight corruption together. it's not easy, but it took a hercules to clean augean stables.......

[scyriacus]

ask uncomfortable questions to the vote buyers, power brokers and their corrupt clique. ask the toxin-appointed would-be pm, if he does not know the thai constitution or if he simply wants to neglect it? deafening silence?

Pure polemics. is this your evasive answer? does somchai not know or neglect the constitution he has sworn to defend?

The government has every right to amend the constitution, if they can get (or buy?) a majority for it. Amending constitution is part of the democratic process. ...

And of course, i will continue to get evasive answers on my question over Sondhi L.'s ideas of going to war against Cambodia, or deafening silence. To be honest, i didn't expect any else. This is just part of cult like groups to behave that way.

which cult do you belong too? i clearly state here, that no war is justified anymore, no reason, no excuses, no enemies, no lies, no weapons, no dead, no more justifications. clear enough?

By the way - Sondhi and other PAD leaders face charges for treason, arrest warrants are still valid, and they still have refused to surrender to the court.

they are not on the run, their whereabouts are well known, they don't hide, i see them everyday on tv, no one can be legally charged for not surrendering himself (but nice idea: would all drug users, wrong doers, speeding drivers please surrender themselves! problem solved.

These charges are far more serious than anything Somchai are charged with. Actually, so far he hasn't been charged for anything, he is under investigation. Hmmm...

there are murders, thieves and crooks a lot, but most of them don't want to be prime minister or minister of justice

[sriracha john]

I have many times posted

yes... indeed you have... 4,662 posts under just one of your old ID's alone.

I agree, repeatedly banned trolls are boring.

[h90]

ask uncomfortable questions to the vote buyers, power brokers and their corrupt clique. ask the toxin-appointed would-be pm, if he does not know the thai constitution or if he simply wants to neglect it? deafening silence?

Pure polemics.

On Bangkokpundit's site you can see in one of his articles a link to a few numbers that have shown that PPP has actually spent far less on "vote-buying" than some other parties. Also i would like to refer you to a very important research by Andrew Walker, that came to very different conclusions about "vote-buying", and its effects than you imply here. Prof. Ungpakorn also wrote some interesting papers on the subject (and he definately cannot be accused of being a Thaksinite!) You should read some of that.

The government has every right to amend the constitution, if they can get a majority for it. Amending constitution is part of the democratic process. On the other hand - PAD has trampled over the constitution some of their members have even helped writing, and with their "new politics" intend to completely get rid of it even, as none of their outlandish demands that came up in the inane "New Politics" debate is covered by the constitution.

And of course, i will continue to get evasive answers on my question over Sondhi L.'s ideas of going to war against Cambodia, or deafening silence. To be honest, i didn't expect any else. This is just part of cult like groups to behave that way

By the way - Sondhi and other PAD leaders face charges for treason, arrest warrants are still valid, and they still have refused to surrender to the court. These charges are far more serious than anything Somchai are charged with. Actually, so far he hasn't been charged for anything, he is under investigation. Hmmm...

what kind of proof should that be?

As well if they did vote buying they should be dissolved.

[Howsitgoin]

no, it is not toxin alone - it is what thai people call Thaksinocracy (Thai: ระบอบทักษิณ Rabob Thaksin). he changes names (pm, parties, politics) more often than some their underwear. let's fight corruption together. it's not easy, but it took a hercules to clean augean stables.......

Oh yes, and before Thaksin this was a paradise of justice and equality ...

The problem with "corruption" is, that it does not come from nowhere. Do you honestly believe that by not letting the elected government work will help solve the problem of corruption in Thailand?

There is more than money corruption at play here. All pervasive patronage networks are the root evil, and Thaksin's is just one of the many such networks. Fighting Thaksin alone, while ignoring and even furthering other such networks by constitutionalizing military and civil service networks over political parties, in which the public has no possibility of scrutiny anymore at all is destroying Thailand.

That is one of the major reasons by the proposed constitution amendments, and not as many assume, to simply exonerate Thaksin.

And PAD does not benefit from the same strange networks here? What about army officers such as Gen. Pathumpong, Gen. Saprang, Senators such as Rosana, and Democrat MP's financing the travel costs of the Southern contingent of PAD?

To justify this destructive campaign problems of this society are exagerrated and simplified so enormously so that PAD cultists can be convinced that even the most extreme measures in their fight might be justified.

So, for example, the vote of millions of Thais is dismissed as having been "bought", or these millions being too "uneducated". That goes against every serious academic study that has been done on these issues, researched by independent academics both Thai and Foreign.

No problem, investigate Somchai, get rid of him, get rid of everyone that is dirty, and don't stop there. Go against the Democrats as well, find dirt on anyone. And that very soon will leave us with a country in which nobody can be found anymore that could be qualified to govern. The "letter of the law" may very well be fullfilled. And the country is gone.

But no problem - Thais are different to foreigners, as was repeatedly told to me by PAD cultists - they can go back to the village and plant rice and be happy, because Thais don't need all that foreign crap. I guess that is where we are heading for here, led by fundamentalist sectarians like Santi Asok's poster boy Chamlong Srimuang, and stoneage communists with a serious Anka style streak like Somsak Kosaisuk. Very good.

How good are your rice planting skills? Ready for toenails falling off from rot, back aches, and all sort of parasite infections you get in those heroic fields?

You mentioned that there is no justfications for any war. Very good.

Only problem is that the Preah Vihear temple issue is still very high on PAD agenda, judging from the constant patriotic songs and speeches at the rally site. What you gonna do about that?

I am sorry, i don't like this government at all, but i like PAD even less - a lot less. Therefore i have learned to accept the fact that in Thailand it is not about what i can support, but choosing the lesser of the evils. And that right now is the government, corrupt as it is. At least it is not completely insane like that group that talkes since ages about those "New Politics" thing, and the opposition party that unfortunately lost all moral highground by supporting this movement, without even being able to define it.

[Howsitgoin]

As well if they did vote buying they should be dissolved.

Well, that leaves no party then in Thailand. How then will you find a government?

Anyhow, if you care to inform yourself, then you might find out that this "vote buying" thing is a lot less hot than you are made to believe. Just read Andrew Walkers research.

It ain't anymore the 80's, where vote buying actually had those effects.

[thaigene2]

Here's another blatant example of how ThaiVisa picks and chooses who can post 'News' articles in this Topic.

While no individual offence directed to GungaDen, this is a poster who has been a member only around a year or so, has less than 500 posts, but is allowed to post in the 'Thailand News Articles" thread, which by now - if you haven't noticed - is very pro PAD/Establishment and very anti-democracy.

Only Mods and 'some' other members are allowed to post News Articles in this Topic Area. Kind of funny/scary isn't it??

I've asked Admin why this is the case a couple of times - no response.

Edited September 30, 2008 by thaigene2

[Plus]

All pervasive patronage networks are the root evil

Nonsense. The "evil" is not in social structures themselves, it's in people who use them. Patronage networks and heirarchial structures exist in every society, not just Thailand, it's an integral part of every soceity.

Not every network dedicates itself to ripping off the society at large.

Thaksin has consolidated the worst scum ever produced here, that's what makes his network "evil", the people using it and their common interests, not the structure they use.

[Howsitgoin]

All pervasive patronage networks are the root evil

Nonsense. The "evil" is not in social structures themselves, it's in people who use them. Patronage networks and heirarchial structures exist in every society, not just Thailand, it's an integral part of every soceity.

Not every network dedicates itself to ripping off the society at large.

Thaksin has consolidated the worst scum ever produced here, that's what makes his network "evil", the people using it and their common interests, not the structure they use.

Not in every society they exist to the extend that almost all formal power structures are beholden to the patronage networks. This is not just since Thaksin that way - it has been throughout Thailand's modern history.

The remainder of your post is pure polemics and hyperbole yet again. That way PAD, its cultists and supporters try to justify their attempt for a putsch.

TRT/PPP networks are hardly "dedicated to ripping off the society at large". If that would have been the case, people would not have elected TRT/PPP again and again. Thailand's finances were still in order at the time of the military coup. Now though, after all the turbulence and instabily - god knows.

Thaksin "consolidated the worst scum" - rubbish. Thaksin has drawn into his party the same networks other parties have formed coalition governments with before, because without those networks nobody can form a government.

There is more than enough "worst scum" that are outspoken Thaksin opponents and allied with PAD. Their leadership many here consider to be exactly that as well.

[Plus]

Things are clearing up now. You are defending the indefensible - politicians who flocked to TRT. They are percieved as the most corrupt group on Thai society, just above the police. Samak, Chalerm, Snoh, Sanan, Chavalit, Vatana, Newin, Yongyuth - there's nothing worse on Thai political scene, and you are defending them. Great.

You call it "polemics" over and over again, which is nothing new, btw.

Each and every one of them dismisses their corruption as irrelevant, too. Not one of them admitted any guilt, ever, not one of TRT members admitted that setting up fake parties was wrong. They, and you as well, keep on harping about their democratic mandate and rights instead.

[Howsitgoin]

Things are clearing up now. You are defending the indefensible - politicians who flocked to TRT. They are percieved as the most corrupt group on Thai society, just above the police. Samak, Chalerm, Snoh, Sanan, Chavalit, Vatana, Newin, Yongyuth - there's nothing worse on Thai political scene, and you are defending them. Great.

You call it "polemics" over and over again, which is nothing new, btw.

Each and every one of them dismisses their corruption as irrelevant, too. Not one of them admitted any guilt, ever, not one of TRT members admitted that setting up fake parties was wrong. They, and you as well, keep on harping about their democratic mandate and rights instead.

Actually, no.

Those politicians you mention here are indeed not the nicest bunch around, and i am not defending them (show me where i have defended them, please), on the opposite - in many posts i have called them for what they are.

But i think you have to get your history right:

-Sanoh Thienthong was pre coup allied with PAD, after he broke with Thaksin. I haven't seen PAD protesting against him when he came to support them - on the opposite.

-Newin might very well change colors and join the Democrats - bet that they will be glad that he brings a large constituency into their hands, and that all previous will be forgotten.

-Samak in the 70s was once a very important member of the Democrats.

-Sanan Kachornprasat? He never was TRT - He was Secretary General of the Democrat Party, before he founded his own party in 2004.

etc.

Chamlong Srimuang and Sondhi Limthongkul were also two of those politicians that were attracted by TRT, and supported Thaksin during the most cited violations against good taste and governance - the drug war killings and other assorted human rights violations. I haven't seen them two admitting their guilt either...

I believe you are under a serious misunderstanding how politics in general, and in Thailand in particular works, in addition to rewriting history so it suits your agenda - in short: polemics.

So, excuse me, when i try to harp on that the situation is more complex that you try to present it, and has to be seen in context.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Howsitgoin

[Plus]

Those politicians you mention here are indeed not the nicest bunch around, and i am not defending them (show me where i have defended them, please), on the opposite - in many posts i have called them for what they are.

You've only made 62 posts so far. If you used to post under other nick - please continue using it, it's against forum rules to keep multiple identities.

If you had been banned - stay banned until you clear it up with mods.

[Howsitgoin]

irrelevant blather...

Embarrassing when you are caught out, isn't it?

So, what about answering on facts presented?

[TAWP]

you may note that police and courts are not the same?

And you may note that police can only work when ordered so by the courts.

We all know your expertise isn't law but driving a 'ambulance' (and that is all good), but please don't write assumptions like this since they aren't true.

Police start investigations after complaints are made and after it is concluded they hand over the result and the evidence to the attorneys to prosecute the offender, if any.

Police isn't waiting for courts as if they where some dispatch-central for ambulances.

[TAWP]

Here's another blatant example of how ThaiVisa picks and chooses who can post 'News' articles in this Topic.

While no individual offence directed to GungaDen, this is a poster who has been a member only around a year or so, has less than 500 posts, but is allowed to post in the 'Thailand News Articles" thread, which by now - if you haven't noticed - is very pro PAD/Establishment and very anti-democracy.

Only Mods and 'some' other members are allowed to post News Articles in this Topic Area. Kind of funny/scary isn't it??

I've asked Admin why this is the case a couple of times - no response.

Why don't you EVER try to read what other people write to you?

It's probably pointless, but here goes: Any member can post news in the General Forum section. If it is interesting news (with sources) it will be picked up by a MOD and moved to the news section.

NO normal user can post DIRECTLY in the news section afaik. This is how it has worked for years.

[Plus]

irrelevant blather...

Embarrassing when you are caught out, isn't it?

Again, breaking the rules, in this case forum rules, is considered irrelevant blather. You don't like the rules - don't post here. Break them at your own expense.

As for list of politicians - were you really serious?

Samak was Democrat member in the 70s! Who cares, it's ancient history.

Newin might join Democrat party - one more reason to call Thai politics beyond redemption.

Sanoh has turned around again - what a surprise.

Sanan was Dem's Sec General. Well, he isn't now, is he?

There's one thing that unites them - they have all gravitated towards PPP/TRT, all the scum ends there.

[Howsitgoin]

There's one thing that unites them - they have all gravitated towards PPP/TRT, all the scum ends there.

Yes, polemics and personalizing a debate that you can't possibly win by using rational arguments.

[Plus]

irrelevant blather...

Embarrassing when you are caught out, isn't it?

So, what about answering on facts presented?

One more thing, if you quote my post, make sure it contains MY WORDS and not your assessment printed under my name.

"irrelevant blather" are not MY words.

Oh, but I'm reminding you about the rules again. Sorry to personalise them for you.

[neverdie]

OK everyone, back into your little holes, take a deep breath then come out and try and be nice, be positive, ohh and don't forget to smile, afterall THIS IS THAILAND!

[Plus]

OK everyone, back into your little holes, take a deep breath then come out and try and be nice, be positive, ohh and don't forget to smile, afterall THIS IS THAILAND!

Another one year old member with 7 posts who conveniently happened to stumble upon this very thread.

Or is someone using a stashed away account again?

What are you hiding, neverdie?

[Samuian]

Or do i get the same deafening silence whenever i ask PAD supporters a uncomfortable question?

So the PPP, the government isn't right and the PAD isn't right either, even there are activists whoch are with the movemnet since the 70ies... then who is going to press for changes - some spirit?

you aren't biased?

concerning the PAD and it's agenda try to follow up and read and try to understand!

Praeh Vihar - the UN has made a decision years ago, that should be followed up...why owns a former and now banned Vintage Politician Mr.Vatana Ashavame a large property and has settled in Cambodia?

let THEM, the Thai People work it out, can't see any genuinely dangerous "nationalism"! (Just remember the Thai National Hymn!) there are certain sentiments with the land and cultural heritage!

I am here to voice MY opinion and I will not stop short in supporting a movement which is against nepotism, cheating, bribing, corruption, vote buying, election rigging, lottery scams, illegal procurement of state owned land, changing laws and the constitution for profits and personal gains, tax evasion on a massive scale, meddling with the judicary.... some one wishes to complete the seemingly endless list?

Yep, could easily be a PR stunt by that "belgium whatsoever"...

when will "outsiders" accept that this is a genuine Thai-Problem which they will have to solve their way- a giant self cleaning process is on its way - otherwise the nepotism and thereof resulting corruption will bring down this country like a terminal

disease.

That "Belgium whatsoever" is the world's most influential think tank.

And who says that or who recommends this "think-tank and who guarantees that the published results are not biased, not meddled with...?

Who?

The Prachathai Press?

And who can make the voice and demand of the "people on the streets" invalid?

Why not listen to them and genuinely look for a real solution, that satisfies all of them or most?

Why they are labeled "nationalists", "fascists"... why?

Why are more and more people backing the demands for CHANGE?

Who is going to lose out if they proceed and win?

IF you/one can answer that question in honest - has the answer on who is who and not simple biased rhetoric.

You expect a 20-times-banned member to answer honestly?

No, if this is the case, honestly NOT!

But thanks for the information - gets this poster closer to waht I think he is all about..

Edited October 1, 2008 by Samuian

[TAWP]

Col has always been very pro-TRT/PPP, no-matter what he claims.

His lack of understanding that one cannot treat two bad sides equal, if one is in power, is especially noticeable. It's not a balanced equation.

And he likes to paint anyone that doesn't like TRT/PPP as pro-PAD (as so many others, like YH, PD), without realizing that during the second world war many different groups of ideology was part of the overall underground resistance network against the nazi occupation of France. It doesn't mean the liberals liked the communist groups, it just means one had to co-operate to get the current evil out of power. Deal with each other afterwards.

[Howsitgoin]

So the PPP, the government isn't right and the PAD isn't right either, even there are activists whoch are with the movemnet since the 70ies... then who is going to press for changes - some spirit?

The movement? You mean the Oktober generation, socialists and communists off all different factions?

Well, many of those are on the side of the government, and many of those are not supporting the government, but are absolutely against PAD (which in my view is the morally cleanest position to take presently). Just read Prof. Thongchai Winitchakul's many very good papers on this issue.

you aren't biased?

concerning the PAD and it's agenda try to follow up and read and try to understand!

Praeh Vihar - the UN has made a decision years ago, that should be followed up...why owns a former and now banned Vintage Politician Mr.Vatana Ashavame a large property and has settled in Cambodia?

let THEM, the Thai People work it out, can't see any genuinely dangerous "nationalism"! (Just remember the Thai National Hymn!) there are certain sentiments with the land and cultural heritage!

Yes, and therefore i would suggest to read the court sentence. PAD is exactly not accepting this decision, and according to Sondhi L. prefers to go to war over the issue. PAD even wants to go much further than the Thai state ever wanted - by claiming the whole temple complex. This is one of PAD's core demands.

If that is not nationalistic fanaticism, what then is?

I am here to voice MY opinion and I will not stop short in supporting a movement which is against nepotism, cheating, bribing, corruption, vote buying, election rigging, lottery scams, illegal procurement of state owned land, changing laws and the constitution for profits and personal gains, tax evasion on a massive scale, meddling with the judicary.... some one wishes to complete the seemingly endless list?

Very good that you are here to voice your opinion. I just would suggest to further educate yourself over the issues involved before monotonously repeating historically and factually wrong information to support your opinion.

[sriracha john]

<snipped>

<snipped>

You expect a 20-times-banned member to answer honestly?

No, if this is the case, honestly NOT!

But thanks for the information - gets this poster closer to what I think he is all about..

happy to help out

[Samuian]

....PAD even wants to go much further than the Thai state ever wanted - by claiming the whole temple complex. This is one of PAD's core demands.

If that is not nationalistic fanaticism, what then is?

I wrote already that Thai People are very sensitive concerning national issues, still can't see this very issue makes the entire PAD being wrong, fascist or nationalistic" and all other of its claims invalid! - regarding that, you failed to answer:what about Vatana Ashavame's role? The plans to develop the region around Praeh Vihar into a major tourist destination including a cable car and a casino.... are they PAD offsprings or who is behind this...?

I am here to voice MY opinion and I will not stop short in supporting a movement which is against nepotism, cheating, bribing, corruption, vote buying, election rigging, lottery scams, illegal procurement of state owned land, changing laws and the constitution for profits and personal gains, tax evasion on a massive scale, meddling with the judicary.... some one wishes to complete the seemingly endless list?

Very good that you are here to voice your opinion. I just would suggest to further educate yourself over the issues involved before monotonously repeating historically and factually wrong information to support your opinion.

Thanks for the recognition!

But regarding my education you are led astray by your own rhetoric acrobatics - careful or better act more wisely!

It's like the parable of the young fox on thin ice...

[neverdie]

Another one year old member with 7 posts who conveniently happened to stumble upon this very thread.

Or is someone using a stashed away account again?

What are you hiding, neverdie?

nothing to hide plus, im a genuine thaivisa 'reader' for years, member of a little while and finally someone that seldomly posts.....is that alright? Would you like to hear from me more often?

[regfrancis]

Invistigated hay? The will probably fire him for being related to an x prime minister, or maybe he cooked some one a meal