Casssava Faqs--help Needed

[IsaanAussie]

Is the sub soiler what I am thinking of? It was developed several decades ago to cut deep (2 to 3 foot)with various spacing, usually 4 foot. The shoe (underground) was about 6 inches wide by 1 1/2 foot long. Just wondering as I had not heard the term sub soiler in a while.

Slapout,

In Australia they are called rippers. I wont go into the no-till debate, but the purpose is to break up the compacted layer of subsoil and improve water penetration. I have a 28HP tractor, against MF's 200+Hp goliath. I could pull 1 tine he can pull 8. I can break the surface, he can break a metre deep.

These devices are not mouldboard ploughs, they are not hillers or row makers. They are pointed instruments about an inch wide that rip the planet surface open.

[JungleBiker]

Is the sub soiler what I am thinking of? It was developed several decades ago to cut deep (2 to 3 foot)with various spacing, usually 4 foot. The shoe (underground) was about 6 inches wide by 1 1/2 foot long. Just wondering as I had not heard the term sub soiler in a while.

Slapout,

In Australia they are called rippers. I wont go into the no-till debate, but the purpose is to break up the compacted layer of subsoil and improve water penetration. I have a 28HP tractor, against MF's 200+Hp goliath. I could pull 1 tine he can pull 8. I can break the surface, he can break a metre deep.

These devices are not mouldboard ploughs, they are not hillers or row makers. They are pointed instruments about an inch wide that rip the planet surface open.

Hi Slapout and IsaanAussie,

I think you're talking about the same thing, but just different names in different countries. Besides the deep cultivation/drainage benefits I'm interested in what MF said about pulling out the roots of bushes and small trees as these will otherwise get in the way when doing the other operations (such as ploughing, discing and ridging).

JB.

[slapout]

OK got it. Yes this is what we called sub soiler. Someone came up with the ideas that they would allow 1. deep pentration of water, 2. aireate the soil, 3. break up compacted soil etc. They were developed prior to and replaced by the low tillage farming method as they certainly would not complement each other. What is the spaceing between the tines (shanks) that are doing the ripping? I have seen a variation of these used to clear root, small stumps, trees, etc. It consisted of the shanks but had large overlapping V shaped sweeps on the foot of the tine, the idea being the roots, etc were cut or ripped out by the sweeps at the working depth , with a drag behind to rake the brush, stumps, etc into collection or burn points. The Cat used to pull this latter concraption was bigger than big but seemed to accomplish what was desired.

[Lickey]

Quote Slapout, I have seen a variation of these used to clear root, small stumps, trees, etc. It consisted of the shanks but had large overlapping V shaped sweeps on the foot of the tine, the idea being the roots, etc were cut or ripped out by the sweeps at the working depth , with a drag behind to rake the brush, stumps, etc into collection or burn points. The Cat used to pull this latter concraption was bigger than big but seemed to accomplish what was desired.

In the 70s i was a plant fitter for a pipeline company in the UK, 36in gas main, after servicing the D8 cats [with sidebooms ,counter weights,12ft blade, winches back and forth,and a 4ft ripper ] we would test all the ancillary equipment, eg, the side boom with counter weights full out would pick up another 50 tonne cat, with the blade and the ripper dug in, the winch would pull out a foot dia tree without a cough of black smoke or a mumur from the engine.

But once that ripper was 4ft down [foot wide shears] that would make the cat work hard, trackspin was common, and in heavy wet clay soil, another cat would tow it, this was done to pave the way for the Barber Greene trencher,

In a way a sub-soiler, with max effect,

Why not hire a 360 for a week, it would pull out all the big roots, throw the soil around, if youve got a Ford with a blade and discs, tidy up after the 360, problem solved.

Cheers, Lickey.

[Maizefarmer]

Their primary purpose is to improve drainage by "de-consolidating" the compacted soil structure down deep so that the crop root line does not become waterlogged.

The bottom of the ripper/subsoiler shank has a fitting for different profile blades to be fitted - a V-shape for example (as slapout has mentioned), which does just that i.e. cut through existing deep root structures, or opposing j-shapes which spread and crack the soil, or flat-i's which tear the soil.... ect ect...

They are not soil mixers - in fact used correctly they create relatively little surface mix or disturbance - just a 3/4" wide slot (the thickness of the shank) in the soil as it's pulled through the land.

They are the most power and torque intensive tillage tools you can mount to a tractor -put duals on and fill all 4 front tyres with water!!!!!

[IsaanAussie]

JB,

How deep is the compacted layer on this land? In my experience test holes are usually dug to determine this. If deeper than the intended root system then perhaps an unneccessary and expensive operation.

I also wondered whether a bulldozer wouldn't be a better option for large acreage deep ripping work?

On a lighter note, I attach a picture of my size "Ripper". Category 1 back scratcher

Isaanaussie

[slapout]

Isaan; Yep back scratcher all tight.( ha) These and the larger models were proposed to farmers for above mentioned resons. The orginal intent was found in many cases to be counter productive or the cost did not seem to bring in additional revenue from the crops planted. The shortcomings included rapid loss of subsurfice mositure, to the depth of sub soil pentration, thus more plant stress during dry season, some people felt neutrients avaliable to plant root system was reduced via leaching, as the typical root system for products from the farm do not penatrate to this depth (2 to 3 foot) The concept was modified, as Lickey and I mentioned and it became a brush clearing device. It worked good on large projects which reutilize pasture, sage brush etc, land to crop production, throughout the western part of the US. As the soils appear deeper here in Thailand and prolonged dry seasons are not the norm, add in the large rainfall amounts during the wet season, I doubt the disadvantages would be nearly as noticeable here.

[IsaanAussie]

Isaan; Yep back scratcher all tight.( ha) These and the larger models were proposed to farmers for above mentioned resons. The orginal intent was found in many cases to be counter productive or the cost did not seem to bring in additional revenue from the crops planted. The shortcomings included rapid loss of subsurfice mositure, to the depth of sub soil pentration, thus more plant stress during dry season, some people felt neutrients avaliable to plant root system was reduced via leaching, as the typical root system for products from the farm do not penatrate to this depth (2 to 3 foot) The concept was modified, as Lickey and I mentioned and it became a brush clearing device. It worked good on large projects which reutilize pasture, sage brush etc, land to crop production, throughout the western part of the US. As the soils appear deeper here in Thailand and prolonged dry seasons are not the norm, add in the large rainfall amounts during the wet season, I doubt the disadvantages would be nearly as noticeable here.

Slapout,

I agree with your comments. Admittedly there are crop based applications that utilise subsoilers effectly here such as the sugar cane growers. But I am involved in small holding Isaan farming and the equipment simply is not justified.

About 6 years ago, I had 12 rai of paddy fields cleared. It had the normal trees growing on mounds of dirt that just seem to multiply like wire coat hangers in your warerobe. The paddy bunds needed to be rebuilt and a small dam dug.

So with massive tree roots and mounds of earth to be moved it seemed like a job for "Super Ripper". Unfortunately he must have been called away to help somewhere else. The job was done as it always has been by a fleet of 6610's (5) with blades and 7 disc ploughs and a Macro working together. Local machines, local prices, increased yields.

I am not planning to plant cassava on this land but do need to increase its output. A single rice crop and 60,000 baht return simply is not an answer.

I am intending to grow feed crops for my pigs in the dry season and if possible dig a 1.5 rai dam for irrigation water/fish, all focused on feed self sufficiency to reduce retail purchasing.

I am thinking a box scrapper with "Back Scratching" tynes will probably a be required purchase if we decide to grow rice again next year. My tractor has a FEL fitted not a blade. In the meanwhile, with the amount of late rain, my 5 disc plough and rotary hoe will handle preparing the ground. Immediate purchase/build need will be for a bed maker or hiller. A potato digger would be handy right now, but havent been able to find one

Thoughts on these issues would be welcome.

Isaanaussie

[slapout]

Isaan; Since you are raiseing rice at present and you want a low cost crop for pigs, have you considered peanuts? I know some of the farmers would plant peanuts within a pig proof fence (electric fence will work) and instead of harvesting, would turn pigs out free range for a few hours a day. The porkers will eat the vines and root out the nuts. Problem was to entice the pigs out of the peanut patch, seemed a bucket of fermented grain was a good porker magnet. The pigs are being fattened up, you save harvest labor cost, and those suckers will root up the whole area, eating most everything green, use rotaryhoe and you have a new crop seed base. Just a thought for everyone to pick apart. I have lived in and been married to a Thai since 92 so I am used to being critized for my farang ideas.

[IsaanAussie]

Isaan; Since you are raiseing rice at present and you want a low cost crop for pigs, have you considered peanuts? I know some of the farmers would plant peanuts within a pig proof fence (electric fence will work) and instead of harvesting, would turn pigs out free range for a few hours a day. The porkers will eat the vines and root out the nuts. Problem was to entice the pigs out of the peanut patch, seemed a bucket of fermented grain was a good porker magnet. The pigs are being fattened up, you save harvest labor cost, and those suckers will root up the whole area, eating most everything green, use rotaryhoe and you have a new crop seed base. Just a thought for everyone to pick apart. I have lived in and been married to a Thai since 92 so I am used to being critized for my farang ideas.

Slapout,

As a matter of fact I have. We have just harvested a small patch of peanuts with the objective of oil extraction and press cake into pig feed. I have watched locals who let their 2 or 3 pigs out to forage and then try to get them back inside the pen, when you consider the effort of wrestling a 200Kg boar back home then multiple that by 100 pigs, narrrr.... easier to dig the bloody peanuts or whatever you are growing. Besides I would have to teach to spit out the oil before they swallow... even harder.

However if I left it to others to do, then it would sure be a laugh, a village wide "Greasy Pig Catching Contest"

[IsaanAussie]

Slapout,

You mentioned growing "low cost crops", I will beg to differ on this. I will be growing crops that are expensive to buy as finished product. The cheap stuff, no value growing it. The real saving is in the value adding activities, turning the raw material into feed components. As a backup, any excess has potential for sale at a reasonable return.

Isaanaussie

[slapout]

Isaan; by low cost crops, I was referring to low labor cost, not the product, could have make that much clearer. Agree with your concept entirely. I have attempted to convey this to Thai family but todate not much success. I have a sister in law and her husband who listen and are starting to implement in this type of thinking. Now if I could just get the wife to listen...... Naw too exhausting and time consuming, I will just have a cool one, less hassel

[nonthaburial]

Anyone got any cassava for sale, I know someone who is looking for 10 tonnes a month. Anyone interested in hooking up with this person please pm me

[IsaanAussie]

Isaan; by low cost crops, I was referring to low labor cost, not the product, could have make that much clearer. Agree with your concept entirely. I have attempted to convey this to Thai family but todate not much success. I have a sister in law and her husband who listen and are starting to implement in this type of thinking. Now if I could just get the wife to listen...... Naw too exhausting and time consuming, I will just have a cool one, less hassel

It is a challenge to try to introduce integrated farming here, luckily my wife sees the reasoning. Most villagers just see one crop/issue, one outcome at a time. The KISS principle. If retail fert or feed prices are too high, don't use them.... most take the easiest way. There are always fish in the klong and fruit on the trees, uncomplicated life, who says they are wrong?

Your cool one policy is something followed here as well...

Isaanaussie

Edited November 6, 2008 by IsaanAussie

[Maizefarmer]

JB,

How deep is the compacted layer on this land? In my experience test holes are usually dug to determine this. If deeper than the intended root system then perhaps an unneccessary and expensive operation.

I also wondered whether a bulldozer wouldn't be a better option for large acreage deep ripping work?

On a lighter note, I attach a picture of my size "Ripper". Category 1 back scratcher

Isaanaussie

I rip all my fields every 3 seasons. Why? - because annual ploughing creates a bedpan which both water and root structures find difficult to penetrate.

So it's a benefit to all fields used for regular cultivation - and the fact that it is not practised a lot in Thailand is one of the reasons why crop yields are not as good as they are. As for using a bulldozer? - why not, use anything that has a 3point hitch and lots of power. Could also use am Case IH STX550 - if one was avalible (in Laos). You'll have a huge fuel bill, but other than that no reason why not.