Democrats And 40 Senators Press Charge Against Somchai Wongsawat

[khunjamespittman]

You know what I don't like, in the real? It's that total negative attitude!

Except a few poster's most of the post are negative to one group, here the PAD and glorifying the other site. Ok, the main differences between that two sites are that the PD are mainly supported from those middle and lower class and the other site is the one with the most power.

I really frankly ask all of you: What you're doing if foreigner in YOUR Country acting like you here in Thailand?! I know from Germany and other Europe Countries what they thinking in the real and that is much different from that how they act here in Thailand!

Cheers.

Look, the Internet was never intended to have a censor or tyrant directing communication. I suggest if you can't handle people disagreeing with your thoughts it is time for a new and fair minded moderator. Your tirades don't contribute to anything.

The internet should remain open for the free expression of ideas and thoughts of all participants not just those who agree with the moderator.

[travelingmike]

discussion is great, The character remiar who is a moderator of this site shows the prejudice of thais(my wife is thai) toward "foreigners" -they still havent accepted that the chinese own the country, its not the fault of the farang. In my country(usa) if you live here you can be a part of the political discussion and get citizenship and vote. Of course there are still a few who want "the foreigners to go home" in the usa also, but less so. Why cant I live in thailand and become a citizen? Why cant I protest one way or the other? Basically thaksin and his buddies do have a democracy by buying the poor people-free cell phones payable to guess who and such gimmicks that work with poor people. Democracy is not meant for all and a good leader(the king) can do a better job. Politics and Religion should always be discussed. I went a few years in my country being told by the bushies that I should get out and I wasnt patriotic for not supporting my president and his endeveors-fall in line the republicans like to say. Thinking is sadly lacking in all governments. Mike

[Plus]

Reimar is in charge of "computer forum", he is not moderating news clippings, afaik.

I understand his frustration with some of the posters here who act like trolls - knowingly posting false and misleading information with the sole goal of degrading PAD. I think he overreacted as "news" rules are different - there's no way the mods here can police "opinions", they barely have time to watch for offenses, clear cut flaming, and the "big one".

Troll infestation is very difficult to correct, you'd either need a clear proof that members contradict "facts", or clear proof of intentionally applying faulty logic when they interpret those facts.

[rocky3]

This is my opinion and mine only. The PAD is the surrogate of the Democratic Party, doing all of the dirty work of ridding the country of the TRT and I believe any other party that is not democratic. Who supports these puppets?

I cannot believe that they are there for the simple fact that they want to change the government for the better, or for Thai's. If this was a peaceful protest then why do they need armed guards (Bangkok post reports that four police officers where shot). From the start Sondthi (SP) said that he would not leave until the government resigned or they were overthrown by another coup. There is a valid arrest warrent out for seven more of the leaders and I believe they should be detained by the police if they leave the compound and given their date in court with the rest of so called peaceful lot. Guards, protestors, or human shields that stand in the way of police performing their duties should be loaded in a van and transported off to jail as well for obstruction of justice.

Okay let the flames begin

[cougar52]

Victim of bomb blast in front of Chart Thai Party is a man

Forensic official identified the victim in a bomb attack in front of Chart Thai Party as a man aged between 40-50 years old.

The man was standing near a car when the bomb exploded. The fire from the blast totally damaged the car.

Forensic official said it looked like the man's hand was in his trouser's pocket and apparently grabbing an explosive when it accidentally went off.

Earlier reports said that the victim was a woman and she was in the car when the bomb went off. TheNation

Two grenades were found on Ravithi Road near Parliament at 6:55 am Wednesday.

The bombs were found and disposed by police.

The Nation

A number of protesters led by the People's Alliance for Democracy have not adhere to the principle of non-violence as claimed, Metropolitan Police deputy commissioner Maj General Amnuay Nimmano said on Wednesday.

Amnuay was speaking in an interview with Channel 3 defending Tuesday's police crackdown.

Many police officers sustained injuries from stab wounds and gun shots, he said. One officer was run over by a truck and another was punctured by a flag pole.

Several home-made explosives, known as ping-pong bombs, were lobbed into the headquarters of Metropolitan Police Bureau.

The Nation

These are a few of the reports from The Nation, that will show that PAD is not with out blame, but it always seems to turn the truth into an attack at the Government for doing their job. I don't have a clue as to what the PAD stand for or want really??? I do wish that all Thai's would get together and make both PAD, TRT, PPP accountable for their actions and stop this BULLSHIT.

[tourleadersi]

Seems like what is going on here on this forum at the moment is a microsm of what is going on out there. Two sides, both feeling that the other is totally wrong and they are the agrieved ones. One side describes the brutal police, the other self inflicted wounds from pipe bombs. It is often the case that the middle ground is where the truth can be found. Heavy handed tactics by the police against a mob, of whom some of its members are intent on causing harm.

There is no doubt that the PPP and PAD have made errors, illegal actions and are both convinced that they are right. This results in the kind of stalemate that festers and eventually leads to open conflict.

If you sit there and argue the 'halo adorned' argument of one side or the other then you really are being naive. Wrongs have been done by and to both sides. Being righteous and shouting down the other side serves no benefit to the cause that you believe in.

[Wolfie]

I think maybe bringing the thread back on topic would be a better idea, Reimar has his own opinion on how things should be (be it right or wrong - and i personally dont agree with his opinion) instead of attacking him (and him attacking other members). We are all entitled to our opinions and on a board such as this are allowed to voice them (providing with stick within the basic rules).

I think TRT/PPP & PAD are both in the wrong, both employing illegal/immoral tactics to harm and discredit each other. In my opinion the biggest 'missed opportunity" was when they nominated Somchai as the new PM, if they had put one of the coalition members up as PM instead, this would have taken most of the wind out of PAD's sails.

It seems the only direction that can feasibly be taken is to pull all the law breakers into court, give them trials, convict/prosecute where applicable and deny them the opportunity to return to politics. Slowly remove the ones guilty of illegal activities and see what happens...

[animatic]

This is my opinion and mine only. The PAD is the surrogate of the Democratic Party, doing all of the dirty work of ridding the country of the TRT and I believe any other party that is not democratic. Who supports these puppets?

I cannot believe that they are there for the simple fact that they want to change the government for the better, or for Thai's. If this was a peaceful protest then why do they need armed guards (Bangkok post reports that four police officers where shot). From the start Sondthi (SP) said that he would not leave until the government resigned or they were overthrown by another coup. There is a valid arrest warrent out for seven more of the leaders and I believe they should be detained by the police if they leave the compound and given their date in court with the rest of so called peaceful lot. Guards, protestors, or human shields that stand in the way of police performing their duties should be loaded in a van and transported off to jail as well for obstruction of justice.

Okay let the flames begin

I think the Democratic party being the obviouse opposition and having certain parallel goals with PAD goals,

is getting tarred with the PAD brush without actual endorsing PAD. Except for a few INDIVIDUAL Dems,

doing fact finding at gov house, or speaking out against PPP excesses. While the Dems would certainly benift,

I don't think they are tied to PAD as an entity no contract or agreements,

but more by circumstances only.

Taking a stand against a corrupt government isn't necessarily throwing out the elected MP's,

but it can be another change of cabinet for one less intent on changing the constituion

for it's own ends.

[hammered]

I think maybe bringing the thread back on topic would be a better idea, Reimar has his own opinion on how things should be (be it right or wrong - and i personally dont agree with his opinion) instead of attacking him (and him attacking other members). We are all entitled to our opinions and on a board such as this are allowed to voice them (providing with stick within the basic rules).

I think TRT/PPP & PAD are both in the wrong, both employing illegal/immoral tactics to harm and discredit each other. In my opinion the biggest 'missed opportunity" was when they nominated Somchai as the new PM, if they had put one of the coalition members up as PM instead, this would have taken most of the wind out of PAD's sails.

It seems the only direction that can feasibly be taken is to pull all the law breakers into court, give them trials, convict/prosecute where applicable and deny them the opportunity to return to politics. Slowly remove the ones guilty of illegal activities and see what happens...

This is probably correct however for things to get to court there needs first to be an investigation. That means police and DSI which are currently stuffed with ones sides proxies and in the case of the police they are now, if they were ever, not trusted by an increasing sector of society. As a local (outside of BKK) police officer said to me yesterday: "Nobody believes anything we say. I dont even believe it myself". That was in reference to a discussion on the use of tear gas only.

[sbk]

Reimar is in charge of "computer forum", he is not moderating news clippings, afaik.

I understand his frustration with some of the posters here who act like trolls - knowingly posting false and misleading information with the sole goal of degrading PAD. I think he overreacted as "news" rules are different - there's no way the mods here can police "opinions", they barely have time to watch for offenses, clear cut flaming, and the "big one".

Troll infestation is very difficult to correct, you'd either need a clear proof that members contradict "facts", or clear proof of intentionally applying faulty logic when they interpret those facts.

Indeed, and he is also a person and allowed to post as such with his own opinions. Do not always assume that when a moderator posts they are necessarily posting as such. And for some to attack him on such a basis, and to use what is, frankly, very bigoted language to do so, is IMO as a moderator unacceptable.

I think the point he was trying to make was the fact that it is not only PAD who are trying to change things, but the Dems as well.

[clausewitz]

The question is: when you guy's will accept the truth?!

Unfortunate there just a few who didn't "run with the majority" and telling the truth about what they know about the PAD! But most of the others just posting what they read "somewhere" without to know the reality.

I know many PAD supporters, which are not rich, and no one of them get paid, not only that, they spend from the little they have for to help others which having less!

And don't forget: That's Thais which are fighting for "their" Thailand and not any foreigner!

And you should know that the Thais know much more about Thailand and the thai character and mentality and culture as any foreigner ever will know.

This is a fight from Thais for Thailand and foreigner have nothing to tell there. You can do that in your own country but NOT in Thailand!

Cheers.

What a pathetic rant! Do you honestly believe the elite give a toss about the muppets who are dumb enough to demonstrate

Who are you to claim to know better than Thais what's about Thais and Thailand?! You're exactly the one of those I was talking about. If you talk about your country, I would believe you but not if you talk about Thailand.

Cheers.

Just know what I observe! Oh, I suppose these PAD people are different form the PPP (or TRT) and not at all corrupt. To an outside observer the goings on in Thailand are beyond belief. Nationalism together with religion are a sure way to destroy a country from within.

Non of these people give a dam about the common man. I think the real problem is that Thais actualy understand very little - and like you jump straight in with the nationalist card whenever a foreigner makes an honest observation.

Thai Rak Thai - yes we know and your welcome

Oh, and I do actualy think that i know more than most Thais re. Thail polotics - because i take an interest and have a logical brain. It speaks volumes about your mentality when you intimate that purely by being Thai qualifys individuals to understand the peculiaritys of Thai politics!

Kind of bizarre when PAD itself says that Issan people can't properly understand politicis and should be excluded from the voting process. Or are Issan people not really Thai?

[sbk]

I guess I didn't make my position here clear enough. Posts have been deleted. Personal attacks will result in my moderator action. Regardless of who is being attacked.

[Plus]

Kind of bizarre when PAD itself says that Issan people can't properly understand politicis and should be excluded from the voting process. Or are Issan people not really Thai?

There you go.

Never ever no one from PAD or even PAD supporters said any such thing.

From those blasted forum rules.

1) You will not use thaivisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, referencing prostitution (including bargirls and barboys), referencing suicide, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

Clausewitz is welcome to provide any evidence of "PAD itself" saying that Isan people should be excluded from the voting process, though I don't hold my breath.

If you are still reading this, Reimar, get used to it. We all have.

>>>>

There's another interesting technique for claiming legitimacy to any point of view you want. If it falls outside of any common sense or reason, make a far more outrageous claim, than say that the truth lies somewhere in between (everybody accepts that without questioning), if you done this correctly, your original claim would be very close to the newly established average, or median, to be precise.

You can also try to justify any weird statement by saying that since no one knows the exact facts, then every estimate/opinion is equally valid.

[clausewitz]

Kind of bizarre when PAD itself says that Issan people can't properly understand politicis and should be excluded from the voting process. Or are Issan people not really Thai?

There you go.

Never ever no one from PAD or even PAD supporters said any such thing.

BURNING ISSUE

PM's future trivial given huge philosophical differences

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

It

Meanwhile, the anti-government People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) appears determined to establish nothing less than their so-called "New Politics", but with a fresh general election, the ruling People Power Party (PPP) appears likely to gain the most votes and form a government yet again.

PAD leader Sondhi Limthongkul may have given a huge discount, as quoted by the Bangkok Post yesterday, when he said that perhaps the PAD's original 70:30 ratio proposal - wherein 70 per cent of the members of Parliament should be appointed and 30 per cent elected - could be reduced to 50:50, to make it more palatable.

Should the rural and urban poor, who form the largest block of voters, be returned to feudal times and be made to accept rule by a small group of self-righteous and supposedly benign rulers - leaders that would be appointed by an even a smaller group of "benign" elite? Would a majority of voters really accept, let alone learn to be content with, such a system?

If the PAD advocates this rule by the few - which could easily degenerate into rule by the fewer for the fewer - then there's no meaningful electoral and political space for rural and urban poor under the New Politics scheme, and indeed for most other voters as well.

So when will the well-intended but self-righteous middle class and elite who have been occupying Government House wake up to the reality that they will ultimately have to share political power and some space with the majority of the populace, distasteful though the thought might be? Or perhaps they believe the formula of 70:30 under New Politics is already "sharing", even if it must be discounted to 50:50.

As much as the Thai media like to talk about the need for the rural and urban poor needing re-education about the meaning and mechanism of elections and democracy, the so-called "educated" middle class and elite also need to unlearn their stereotypes and prejudices and learn more about democracy themselves.

For one thing, while the majority of the PAD protesters seem middle class and even conspicuously rich, a visible presence of urban and rural poor within the PAD rally can also be detected. Does this not mean that not all poor and less-formally educated people are "hopeless" from the standpoint of the PAD, who carp on so much about how "naive" the poor urban and rural voters are?

A recent remark by a major PAD supporter and jewellery-business owner Preeda Tia-suwan is very revealing. Last Saturday, at a public symposium attended by academics at Chulalongkorn University, Preeda defended the PAD's ASTV satellite television mouthpiece, saying it was not cultivating any political cult.

Preeda stressed those who watched ASTV and attended PAD rallies could not possibly have been brainwashed, "because they are middle-class people".

So now there is a new theory based on the notion that the so-called educated middle class are somehow immune to propaganda and brainwashing and an assumption that others outside this group easily fall for it.

.

[clausewitz]

Kind of bizarre when PAD itself says that Issan people can't properly understand politicis and should be excluded from the voting process. Or are Issan people not really Thai?

There you go.

Never ever no one from PAD or even PAD supporters said any such thing.

here are some more quotes from world media:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/democracy/news/a...jectid=10531139

But the PAD has nothing to do with democracy. In fact, it claims that the ballot box gives too much weight to the ill-educated rural poor, whose votes can easily be "bought" (that is, won) with promises of government largesse.

The so-called People’s Alliance for Democracy proposes an audaciously undemocratic “new politics” whereby most members of parliament would be appointed. Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue, Geneva

The insurgents still style themselves as the “People’s Alliance for Democracy,” but this time some of their leaders are explicit in calling for just the opposite: the restoration of a full monarchy or a military-backed autocracy. Washington Post

What his [samak’s] opponents, who come under the misleading banner of the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD), want is a mandate on demand, by theft. Straits Times

Even though the PAD’s very name includes the word democracy, many of its supporters are skeptical of electoral politics. Time

The rebel groups are trying to roll back the results of last December’s general elections and reinstall rule by an urban elite traditionally backed by the Thai armed forces. Irish Times

An alliance of street protesters and a reactionary elite. Financial Times

The latest ideologue [sondhi] who promises to fix their country’s democracy by -- once again -- breaking it. Wall Street Journal

What the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) did on August 26 … was a putsch. La Stampa

Authoritarian rabble … the woefully misnamed People’s Alliance for Democracy … a gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen, generals and aristocrats. Economist

The PAD leadership is no collection of spotless democrats. The Independent (London)

The group’s name appears to be a misnomer as it is neither populist nor does it want representative democracy. Al-Jazeera

[Plus]

Once again, you said, word for word:

"PAD itself says that Issan people can't properly understand politicis and should be excluded from the voting process."

All your quotes above have absolutely nothing to support your point, not to mention none of them come from PAD or PAD affiliated media.

[sjaak327]

Reimar is in charge of "computer forum", he is not moderating news clippings, afaik.

I understand his frustration with some of the posters here who act like trolls - knowingly posting false and misleading information with the sole goal of degrading PAD. I think he overreacted as "news" rules are different - there's no way the mods here can police "opinions", they barely have time to watch for offenses, clear cut flaming, and the "big one".

Troll infestation is very difficult to correct, you'd either need a clear proof that members contradict "facts", or clear proof of intentionally applying faulty logic when they interpret those facts.

Right, my question then would be, if posting false and misleading information about the PAD is reason for some annoyance and this OP, then I wonder where similar OP's are for the bullshit that has been posted regarding TRT and PPP who have been fair game on this forum for years and years, case of selective anger ?

Once again, you said, word for word:

"PAD itself says that Issan people can't properly understand politicis and should be excluded from the voting process."

All your quotes above have absolutely nothing to support your point, not to mention none of them come from PAD or PAD affiliated media.

Correct, they have never said it word for word like that, but of course to everyone except maybe the most core PAD supporters, it is pertty clear that these new politics are steered toward people who lack (in their twisted minds) the education to be able to vote.

Make no mistake, these are scary people, and given the choice between politicians that are corrupt to the core and these people, the choice is easy.

At least with the PPP, there is always the opportunety to deal with them at ballot time.

Edited October 9, 2008 by sjaak327

[Guest Reimar]

FROM TOC

SNAP UPDATE: Appeals Court Ordered Withdrawal of Treason Charges against 9 PAD Leaders

UPDATE : 9 October 2008

The Appeals Court has decided to cancel the charges of treason which have been filed against 9 PAD leaders.

The charge of amassing armed forces has also been withdrawn. But 3 other charges remain.

Anti-PAD Group Provides Protection for National Police Bureau

UPDATE : 9 October 2008

Hundreds of anti-PAD members, donned in black, are guarding the front entrance of the National Police Bureau.

Hundreds of members of the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship or Nor Por Gor are dressed in black. They are patrolling the front of the National Police headquarters to protect the police from the People's Alliance for Democracy.

[Samuian]

Not so sure what you're talking about ...

But if it's about the poor guy who was killed by PAD supporters, I remember a number of comments in this forum: he was looking for trouble, he has only himself to blame ...

So get your facts straight before blaming anybody.

Talking about the Anti PAD posters who posted flaming and abusing post's against all PAD supporters about the one human death from the "other" site but didn't do the same now while 2 death and more than 400 injured by "legal" actions of the police.

That's the fact's! The rest you can read in my post!

Cheers.

These people were killed by home made pipe bombs manufactured by PAD supporters, killed by their own stupidity. The police is doing a fine job. Again, get your facts straight !!

Propaganda: nothing more, nothing less.

And SHAME on you.

Well, after what happened yesterday, people still condoning the action of the PPP led Government, the Order of the PM to have the "Police clear Parliament House grounds", the leaking that Police did SELF ENSEMBLE and USED HOMEMADE Teargas grenades , these people have themselves morally disarmed and leave no effort to show their true characters!

Makes me shiver...and

[Plus]

Reimar is in charge of "computer forum", he is not moderating news clippings, afaik.

I understand his frustration with some of the posters here who act like trolls - knowingly posting false and misleading information with the sole goal of degrading PAD. I think he overreacted as "news" rules are different - there's no way the mods here can police "opinions", they barely have time to watch for offenses, clear cut flaming, and the "big one".

Troll infestation is very difficult to correct, you'd either need a clear proof that members contradict "facts", or clear proof of intentionally applying faulty logic when they interpret those facts.

Right, my question then would be, if posting false and misleading information about the PAD is reason for some annoyance and this OP, then I wonder where similar OP's are for the bullshit that has been posted regarding TRT and PPP who have been fair game on this forum for years and years, case of selective anger ?

I'm afraid I'd have to ask you for examples of clear cut bullshit regarding TRT/PPP that went unchallenged, or wasn't apologised for when exposed.

Once again, you said, word for word:

"PAD itself says that Issan people can't properly understand politicis and should be excluded from the voting process."

All your quotes above have absolutely nothing to support your point, not to mention none of them come from PAD or PAD affiliated media.

Correct, they have never said it word for word like that, but of course to everyone except maybe the most core PAD supporters, it is pertty clear that these new politics are steered toward people who lack (in their twisted minds) the education to be able to vote.

You can say a lot of things about new politics, but you CAN'T claim that anyone, let along the poor, will be excluded from voting process, as Clausewitz did.

In fact, if you read PAD's own proposal, they want to give farmers MORE voice in governing and guarantee direct representation, but that's beside the point - some posters, like Clausewitz, and he is not alone, are able to get away with posting clearly wrong and false information, and then trying to support it with unrelated quotes from unrelated sources. No wonder non-regulars feel pissed off.

Welcome to news clippings.

[hammered]

FROM TOC

SNAP UPDATE: Appeals Court Ordered Withdrawal of Treason Charges against 9 PAD Leaders

UPDATE : 9 October 2008

The Appeals Court has decided to cancel the charges of treason which have been filed against 9 PAD leaders.

The charge of amassing armed forces has also been withdrawn. But 3 other charges remain.

Anti-PAD Group Provides Protection for National Police Bureau

UPDATE : 9 October 2008

Hundreds of anti-PAD members, donned in black, are guarding the front entrance of the National Police Bureau.

Hundreds of members of the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship or Nor Por Gor are dressed in black. They are patrolling the front of the National Police headquarters to protect the police from the People's Alliance for Democracy.

There is an irony in there somewhere. The DAAD who purpotedly hail from the poor, although this may be debatable as theri leadership are certainly not a bunch of poverty stricken farmers, are defending the police force.! Judging from the other day the police - we only used tear gas - force dont exactly need defending form anyone considering the ability of local terar gas to blow feet off. Maybe the DAAD should be careful of their feet although no doubt they wontr be experiencing any nuclear tear gas as the police usually get out of the way and allow them to march anywhere they want.

By the way it is bunch of nurses from Chulalongkorn Hospital who are heading to the Police HQ not the PAD.

[Knightsbridge]

Democrats and Senators Press Charge against PM

UPDATE : 8 October 2008

A group of 40 senators have urged the prime minister to step down or dissolve the House to help restore the country's peace.

Meanwhile, the Democrat's legal team has pressed criminal charges against the prime minister for issuing an order for yesterday's crackdown on the PAD.

The Democrat Party's legal team, led by its Deputy Secretary-general, Thavorn Sennium, has submitted a complaint to the National Police Chief, Police General Patcharawat Wongsuwan, asking for legal action against Prime Minister and Defence Minister Somchai Wongsawat.

The opposition party said the prime minister has breached several articles of the Criminal Code as he issued an order that resulted in the loss of several lives.

If found guilty, Somchai could face the maximum sentence of capital punishment.

Sathit said the opposition Democrat Party can no longer allow Somchai to administer the country and legal action could be the best way out, as the party is still not allowed to hold a censure debate in the upcoming House legislative session.

Meanwhile, the party's shadow Defence Minister and former Third Area Army Chief, General Picharnchet Muangmanee said yesterday's use of homemade teargas by police officers was inappropriate as it can cause powerful explosions when mixed with pieces of glass or iron.

At the same time, some Democrat MPs such as Asi Mahamadyanggee and Yukol Chanawatpanya showed the press the wounds they suffered during their observation of yesterday's crackdown.

In a related development, 40 senators led by Bangkok Senator Rossana Tositrakul released a statement to deliver their condolences for the families of the people killed and for those injured in yesterday's crackdown on the PAD rally.

The group said Prime Minister Somchai should resign or dissolve the House, as the situation could deteriorate.

The senators will submit a complaint with the Administrative Court tomorrow to seek an injunction against the use of border police officers and teargas in dealing with the PAD rally. The PAD had submitted a similar complaint today and the court has already accepted the case.

Senator Prasarn Marukapitak said he will send pictures and evidence related to yesterday's crackdown to the United Nation's Human Rights Committee, the Human Rights Watch, and foreign ambassadors in Thailand for clariification of the incident.

Prasarn added that he will file a motion with Parliament, asking the prime minister to clarify his involvement and policies that are not in compliance with international practices, as well as the actions against officials related to the brutal crackdown.

The group of 40 senators also plans to file a complaint with the Constitution Court, seeking a trial on the possible share concealment of the prime minister and his daughter, Chinnicha Wongsawat, a Chiang Mai MP.

The group also visited PAD protesters and police officers who were injured in yesterday's crackdown.

Supreme Court Accepts PAD Petition for Temporary Injunction

UPDATE : 8 October 2008

The Supreme Court has accepted the People's Alliance for Democracy's petition for a temporary protection against more crackdowns or tear gas attacks on the protesters.

Is this why the police maybe need to infiltrate the PAD for to get the "alibi" for to start an other "crack-down" while bupassing the Supreme Courts decision as claimed in the following report?

PAD Claims Plain Clothed Police Have Infiltrated PAD Gathering

UPDATE : 8 October 2008

According to PAD's intelligence, plain clothed police have infiltrated the PAD's gathering and intend to set fire to the Metropolitan Police Bureau.

The alleged arson attempt would give the police the reason to launch another crackdown on the PAD protesters.

Who does PAD's intelligence consist of, exactly? Do you have names? More heresay (pro-PAD progaganda), right?**english only please--sbk**

Interesting to see that the only interest are about the PAD, but the criminal charges from other groups, here the Senators and the Democrats, are not interesting.

There's not the PAD only but others as well who're not conform with the government and against the action the government has taken against the PAD.

Unfortunate there a lot of, let say with this word: untrue reports about the PAD, special if it comes to the points of "paid" supporters and so on.

And where now those with the big mouth about the first death human a few weeks ago, while yesterday the result was not just a bit more high but a lot?! 2 death and more than 400 injured by the police and maybe others while using Teargas only?!

And a lot of you applaud about that tragedy!

IMHO that is a shame for a human being to show such character.

PAD supporters not paid!!! ????? who's side of the red tape are you on? It's a well known fact that supporters are paid otherwise they couldn't afford so many months of protests. Otherwise they must have saved lots of money from their poor incomes in the rural areas to do such long sit ins.

The govt is corrupt, sure! So are the PAD leaders. Both sets of leaders are power hungry and really don't care for the average voter. Go and clap your hands out of here...

[sjaak327]

I'm afraid I'd have to ask you for examples of clear cut bullshit regarding TRT/PPP that went unchallenged, or wasn't apologised for when exposed.

I''m not going to even look, but surely the opposite will also be the case, without a doubt in my mind. Even khun Sondhi was doing it all the time, one of the most stricking example being the bullshit about Thaksin being behind the Erawan shrine destruction.

You can say a lot of things about new politics, but you CAN'T claim that anyone, let along the poor, will be excluded from voting process, as Clausewitz did.

In fact, if you read PAD's own proposal, they want to give farmers MORE voice in governing and guarantee direct representation, but that's beside the point - some posters, like Clausewitz, and he is not alone, are able to get away with posting clearly wrong and false information, and then trying to support it with unrelated quotes from unrelated sources. No wonder non-regulars feel pissed off.

Welcome to news clippings.

I myself have not used the word poor, I used uneducated, and this is not something I'm making up, I'm just repeating words used by the PAD leadership. Sentiments that have been repeated on this forum by many other posters. Can I then now safely assume that the 30/70 or whatever ratio is off the table, I'm not so convinced.

[Plus]

Sondhi is not a member of Thaivisa, he can't be taken to task like our members here.

Poor or uneducated - it doesn't make Clausewitz statement any more correct.

[clausewitz]

Sondhi is not a member of Thaivisa, he can't be taken to task like our members here.

Poor or uneducated - it doesn't make Clausewitz statement any more correct.

You said that no PAD supporters ahve ever suggested such a thing. I have spoken with several that say exactly that - Issan people are too dumb to be trusted to vote. Do you actually live in thailand, the sentiment is not uncommon. That is why so many academics and news editors support PAD, they really believe that Issan people, for the most part, are a subclass fit only to serve.

Look at this post http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Sin-Sod-t214432.html

Isan...strange people, even stranger customs.

Southern Thailand people consider them human subspecies, shame of entire country.

[Plus]

Oh, so now you can't find any proof in the available media that PAD leaders or supportes said anything about stripping the Isanese of their right to vote, now we are treated to a non-documented hearsay.

I'm not expecting that you'd ever admit that you were wrong, you can just drop it.

I only pointed it out for Reimar's benefit who is apparently not accustomed to this kind of bullshit or, perhaps, level of moderation.

[clausewitz]

Here is a quote from CNN today

http://inthefield.blogs.cnn.com/tag/dan-rivers/

they[PAD] want nothing less than the overthrow of the entire political system. Their argument goes something like this: the vast majority of voters are poor, uneducated farmers who are susceptible to corruption by Thaksin and his allies, therefore we should abandon democracy to prevent this corruption

[dauu]

FROM TODAY'S WALL STREET JOURNAL ASIA

" If the PAD succeeds in overturning those elections, it will be at the cost of disenfranchising millions of voters -- and at a cost to Thailand's struggling democracy.".

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1223501699...=googlenews_wsj

[JetsetBkk]

Here is a quote from CNN today

http://inthefield.blogs.cnn.com/tag/dan-rivers/

they[PAD] want nothing less than the overthrow of the entire political system. Their argument goes something like this: the vast majority of voters are poor, uneducated farmers who are susceptible to corruption by Thaksin and his allies, therefore we should abandon democracy to prevent this corruption

FROM TODAY'S WALL STREET JOURNAL ASIA

" If the PAD succeeds in overturning those elections, it will be at the cost of disenfranchising millions of voters -- and at a cost to Thailand's struggling democracy.".

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1223501699...=googlenews_wsj

Not good enough. You need a verbatim quote from a PAD leader, not some story in an insignificant rag or two, to satisfy Plus.

A video, in English, on Youtube would probably do.

[Plus]

Well, since Clausewitz specifically said "PAD itself", then Dan Rivers blog on cnn doesn't qualify, does it?

He can stuff "Their argument goes like this" line up his ass. Their argument doesn't go like this, and it certainly doesn't say that Isanese would lose their rights to vote.

Who are you going to quote next? Sunrise07?

And in unanimous opinion piece in WSJ, which surely wasn't written by any PAD representatives or supporters, btw, the line " If the PAD succeeds in overturning those elections, it will be at the cost of disenfranchising millions of voters" refers to last elections. I can't see how that can be attributed to PAD itself or prove Clawsewitz's allegation, which so far remains absolutely baseless.

You are trying in vain. It's like the WMD case in the run up to the Iraq war.