Doggie With Diarrhea...

[Cuban]

I'm not overly worried yet, it has only been 24 hours since he first refused food, but if this continues into the weekend I would like to have this thread in place to refer to should I need to seek the input of others.

We have three dogs, one older 'house' poodle type dog and two younger, larger rottweiler-cross outdoor dogs, twins, 20Kgs, 7 months old. One of these two is ill, on Tuesday evening I believe he ate something he shouldn't have while we were out during the evening walk, I think it might have been a disgarded chicken carcass. Their walks are supervised but allowed free roam within a larger enclosed space, it's not as if they are loose but could still grab something that smells 'interesting' and woof it down while we are out.

On Wednesday morning he was lethargic but fully awake, just not very interested in greeting me as he normally would, I should point out his brother is fine acting perfectly normally. When I went to walk just his brother, he got up and indicated he wanted to come as well, so the trio of dogs and I went out for a shorter than normal walk. Ill-dog ate some grass, so I suspected at this point he wanted to be sick. After we returned home he brought up the grass and little else, less than half a coffee cup in total. He rejected breakfast which was a fish, par-soaked biscuit and some chicken, other dogs ate well.

During the day he slept as normal and was a little more 'with it' in the evening, he enjoyed a walk but not as active (play fights and chases) as normal. Evening meal rejected, but taking water. Other dogs eat/ act as normal. During the evening after doing the dopey owner routine, sitting with dog stroking talking etc. I left them for an hour or so to return very shortly after he had released a cup or so's worth of diarrhea, hot-chocolate brown, mostly consitancy of water with chicken bone fragments about 1cm in size. The chicken bones were not the same meat cuts that they have been given by me in the past few days so that is why I assume he ate the bad chicken on Tuesday, and 24 hours is about right for food to reach stool from earlier observations.

He produced more diarrhea about an hour later and was comfortable resting/sleeping. Less volume this time, same color, no suggestion of blood that I can see, similar to their normal stool color when eating biscuit. Dry nose, breaths normal pulse about 80, no excessive panting, eyes fine just a little sadder than normal. Great to have a brother to compare stats with! If there is another bout of diarrhea I am thinking about taking a sample - seems comon sense to me - would a vet consider running a such a sample through a microscope to check for the cause or just issue a broad spectrum antibiotic.

I doubt that this is anything more serious than "bad burger syndrome", all three are up to date with inoculations for distemper and parvo etc. Apart from eating grass to get rid of the bad food there is no other vomiting, no bloating or abdominal pain, accepts my normal post-walk body-check without reaction.

This morning (Thursday) he was much better, greeting me with gusto, keen to go for the morning walk but rejected breakfast, mackrel. Interestly his brother was much less keen to eat this morning that normal, ate some but not all - I partly put this down to having a larger than average meal the night before - no he didn't get a double helping just more than normal - and partly that the ill-dog is the dominant of the two and I'm guessing there is a relationship there. Generally they share a large dish - consider a large pizza type dish.

As I said I'm not overy worried today, the diarrhea has not lasted long enough and there is no other factor that appears to distress him to warrant taking him to the vet just yet, if he refuses food on Friday morning I think a trip to the vet will be in order.

Any thoughts, opinions or experiances would be most welcomed.

[Nienke]

Can be food poisoning. Activated charcoal may help.

Being up to date with the parvo, however, does not necessarily mean he can't get it. If his brother's appetite and energy level is going down as well, I would more think in the direction of a virus.

Have you taken his temeprature?

You say 'no abdominal pain', but how can you be so sure? The dog definitely indicates he is not feeling well.

You can take samples of their feces to the vet and have it checked first, before actually taking in the dogs.

Nienke

Edited October 9, 2008 by Nienke

[Cuban]

Hi, thanks for the quick response.

> Can be food poisoning. Activated charcoal may help.

How would you 'encouage' a dog to accept a mouthful of charcoal?

I might just leave some lumps near their water bowl, "doggie heal thy self" as it were.

> Being up to date with the parvo, however, does not necessarily mean he can't get it.

> If his brother's appetite and energy level is going down as well, I would more think in the direction of a virus.

Point taken. The brother finished the breakfast this morning, no sign of upset, happy bouncy self. All three of mine mix socially on a daily basis with about 7 other dogs in the area, no strays/soi dogs. Talking to other owners they are well. No more diarrhea so far today.

> Have you taken his temeprature?

No - need a suitable tool - we might play this game tonight.

> You say 'no abdominal pain', but how can you be so sure?

You know your dog - you can tell when he/she reacts when you touch or go to touch an area that is in pain. Even when in 'submit mode' they mouth or paw your hand as if to say, 'no thanks'. I get this when removing grass seed burrs or the single tick * that he had some time ago. The tick had only just started to feed - extended body was very thin. This was a while ago - I can see there is a chance of a tick bourne illness, however I feel this is remote, eating rubbish food is still my favorite theory. Neither dog is overweight (IMO) 20kg and at the shoulder about 56cm, waist is defined and no lumps or bloating.

> The dog definitely indicates he is not feeling well.

If that was a question, yes absolutely, normally very keen to follow me, always happy to play/walk interact with other dogs. Although he comes to the gate this afternoon when I was home to greet me - it was not as manic as normal. We will see how he responds this evening.

* Generally after every walk and during our time I do a all over doggie body check, "paws, legs and tails". My theory is that during times like this I want them to consider submitting to checks is normal and not something strange that only happens when they are taken to the vet for example. It was during such a check that the tick - only one they ever had - was discovered.

[Nienke]

LOL... Activated charcoal you can buy at any pharmacy in tablet form. Put a tablet in water and it solves. You can add some broth or something, so he may drink it more eagerly. If not, you can put it in a syringe and then squirt it in the back of his mouth.

Anyway, this may be for a (hopefully not) next time as you say there's is no diarrhea anymore. Sounds he did had a food poisoning. Probably the self-fasting helped him getting over it.

As for showing pain, animals don't show pain that quickly. A matter of survival instinct. If you remember I have been posting about the rescued labrador with the huge abcess (from armpits to abdomen with necrose and all). Only the first few days I noticed he was in great pain. How I noticed this was not because he whined or crinched, but becasue he didn't want to lie down. The very first cleaning he would try to bite and struggled (not when I just touched and checked the wound), and the next several cleanings at the vet he would struggle only. When I cleaned the wound at home though, he would let me do so without struggle but with a face that said a lot. Quite quickly, while the wound was still huge and open he was ready for run and play (not that he was allowed to do so), no visible sign of pain.

Animals that show pain are weak animals and therefore easy or easier prey for predators. Once they show pain they must be in loads of pain already.

Nienke

[bina]

no blood in stool good sign; stool sample will take time, often by the time u get results the dog is fine;

charcoal also comes in pill type form u just give it as a pill... it really works wonders, we used it several times on suspected poison cases with dogs, one being food poisoning...

check his pee for dehydration (strong yellow smelly) and frequency, remember he is a boy dog so lifting leg does not mean that he really is peeing just scenting... check (with cup even) the stream...

temperature is with simple thermometer, people kind (u can soak in alcohol for twenty minutes afterwards for re use for you),

with internal abdominal pain u usually do see it on dogs, refusal to move, pain when palpating the abdomen,...

what worries me more is if he is still off food, but no more feces, i would go to vet to 'listen' to his abdomen for a stoppage (not sure what its called in english, when the intestine has a blockage from impacted bones)... the vet can insert a finger in anus to feel if there is anything on one side, and can listen to intestinal sounds...

we had a case with a dog, refusing to eat for two weeks!!! getting treatment as if it was a virus, stool samples (had diahrea), etc... no vomiting. in the end, we gave paraffin as he stopped givng feces also... was living on iv liquids... got paraffin twice and then lo and behold! stuck finger up, and found a ....PEACH PIT.... so it had moved gradually out of stomach,thru intestine to lower intestine and then got truely stuck...

fortunately for rocky, we got it out with out surgery... next day, started on soft special foods...

moral of the story: physical exam (if continueing with refusal to eat) and /or x ray or ultra sound, given that u think he ate something not good and u saw bones in stool...

bina

israel

[Cuban]

Humor missed, I should have added a smiley with my comments so you could see my expression...

> Can be food poisoning. Activated charcoal may help.

How would you 'encouage' a dog to accept a mouthful of charcoal?

I might just leave some lumps near their water bowl, "doggie heal thy self" as it were.

...no I was not considering feeding lumps of BBQ charcoal to him, but the image was amusing. I finely crushed a small lump and added to one of their water bowls when I got home last night. Both have toyed with whole lumps in the past, so I did leave a couple laying around in case he does feel the urge to nibble as well.

As an update: Last night rejected food again and produced a small squirt of water/diarrhea while on a short walk. I did stop enroute home and buy a thermometer, he was 38.7^oC which would appear normal. After being home for a few hours he was still very dejected and sitting considering benifits of being branded an over-worrying owner vs just waiting, we took a drive into Pattaya for one of the animal hospitals there. In summary, heart and lungs sound OK, no indication of stomach lumps, swelling, or abnormal sounds - no retal exam but temperature measured and the same as above. Given antibiotics (Metronidaz and Sulfatrim) and an anti-diarrhea, that I am not too keen of giving him as I think better out than in (diarrhea), the mess is not a problem. Due back there in three days if it continues.

During this morning's short walk, his choice to come rather than stay home, he produced quite dark yellow urine, although the vet suggested that he was not yet de-hydrated. After walking he drank some water, after about 20 minutes I gave him the medication, 30 minutes later he vomited the water and slight yellow green foam, I guess some of that medication. (After drinking this morning he rejected food again, interestingly other dog rejected a fresh chicken leg - but ate fish and a meaty pork bone.) Chicken will remain off the menu for a while.

Anyway, this may be for a (hopefully not) next time as you say there's is no diarrhea anymore. Sounds he did had a food poisoning. Probably the self-fasting helped him getting over it.

This is my opinion from day one. How long can he remain without food? The vet suggested sweetened (sugar) water, I will make up a dilute sugar-salt rehydration type solution for him...

...add some broth or something, so he may drink it more eagerly. If not, you can put it in a syringe and then squirt it in the back of his mouth.

...I like the syringe idea, I can get a large bore syringe easily and in these early days for the water it seems wise. I know when I have been ill through food poisioning any thought of food is the last thing I want - I would expect him to also not want finest chcken liver and mashed rice soup forced down his throat, too tramatic and too early to be force feeding him?

...great pain. How I noticed this was not because he whined or crinched, but becasue he didn't want to lie down.

No change in pupil (eye) when sitting/laying in any position, curls up, lays on stomach and on back, accepts body checks, but a little less keen to allow me to open his mouth now after a few tablets - can't do the normal trick of a little fish oil to encouage him.

...really is peeing just scenting... check (with cup even) the stream...

Both dogs pee like a girl, they haven't learnt to spray everything yet. (I guess they are just copying our older lady dog.) Worth taking a sample?

what worries me more is... ...moral of the story: physical exam (if continuing with refusal to eat) and /or x ray or ultra sound, given that u think he ate something not good and u saw bones in stool.

Indeed - I see this as the next step, x-ray will be availible on next vet visit.

Remaining positive and looking ahead a few days - thoughts on recovery food?

Generally their diet is raw meats, fish etc. some cooked rice or commerical dog biscuit.

I'm thinking raw liver (cooked if he refuses) and par boiled soft eggs, maybe encourage him to take some of my vegemite on brown bread toast. Good sources of Vitamin B less risk of secondary illness from uncooked foods.

While talking of food I'll mention carrots, others have suggested their dogs enjoy them frozen or otherwise, even when well both dogs looked at me when offering a carrot with an expression that indicated that I should use it for my own retal exam rather than their dinner.

[Nienke]

If the dog vomits again, then take a sample of the feces and have it checked by the vet for parvo. It could be the med's but it can also be something else. Strange that the vet didn't do immediately a fecal exam. Often some feces are stuck to the thermometer which the vet here uses for the fecal exam.

Diarrhea that is dark brown can still be an indication of having blood in it. Also this the vet should check.

Dark yellow urine is an indication of dehydration.

IMO, it's ok to encourage a dog to eat, but I won't force feed it in such a circumstances. Dogs can go without food for days in a row, adults more than pups naturally. The husky pup, Diva, refused to eat for almost a month. Not exactly advisable, of course, and she received IV everyday. After about 7 days on IV at the vet she came back to me and I needed to force feed her. A few syringes a time, every two hours. I think it was about month of refusing food that she started to have interest in dry food. The prescription diet she kept on refusing, but I suspect that was also due to the bad expereince of the force feeding.

I certaily wouldn't feed him anything frozen for now. And concerning carrots, some dogs just understand they are dogs not rabbits.

Instead of giving him sugar water, you could consider honey?

Nienke

[Cuban]

...you could consider honey?

Fantasic idea - I would like to say that I had thought of that but... ...maybe it would have come to me seeing that road side purchase by my wife still sitting in the kitchen unused after a month. Thanks again. Edited October 10, 2008 by Cuban

[bina]

dark yellow urine is dehydration unless getting some vitamins which tend to give distinctive colour and smell (vitamin b's )... by the time the skin test (pick up skin and let drop) shows dehydration, the dog is really dehydrated...

dont force feed, i really hated doing it, we had in vet that preferred that, and two that preferred tha wait and see, offering several options of food for the dog as the dog wanted. u can, if u want as nienke said, offer honey by putting on nose... most dogs will lick it off, so works well...

i'm a worry wart, and i still go for the extreme in this case, that the chicken bones (cooked?) have caused an impaction or irritation to his gut...

actually foofoo had eaten spoiled chicken feed, and practically died, having all the blood in stool and vomiting same as for parvo... but we did actually see blood...

forgot to ask, but must, does his stool stink really badly? parvo has a really distinctive smell to the stool... the green foam might be bile? or might be the grass u said he ate...

take temp every day, and leave fresh water (measured amount if u can) to see how much he is drinking. a mix rottie breed drinks a lot, but dehydrates slower then a pinchser (usually more body fat).. u can also see what is happening by weighing him every day (he shouldnt drop wait rapidly even by not eating, it is the dehydration that u can see if he drops weight every day, even 100 gram... the vet should weigh him, or u should, and write it down...)...

dont offer too many foods, wait really until he shows interest... usually dogs will ask for food when start feeling better although may not be willing to eat just anything... scrambled egg, chicken soup, no fatty things, and usually they dont want liver actually...

bina

yes, rocky also went quite a long time w/o food, but iv every day....that peach pit was amazing... we really saw that he was acting as a dog that wasnt ill, but refusing food... just getting weaker, until we discovered the peach pit in anus... how he ever managed to eat it, we dont know... he is is an outdoor mixed breed who used to dig and cover his food before eating it (canaani mix behavior) so maybe it got mixed in with his food... very wierd.. we saved the peach pit to show the owner..

[Cuban]

Late update and closure.

Hi Bina & Nienke,

Friday evening (10th Oct): A much happier ill-dog greeted me home last night. Drank some water and was keen to go out for a walk. Refused food again during early evening and was only a little reluctant to take honey water via the large bore syringe I bought, lapped a little from my hand. Accepted medication - kept it down.

I was locking up the house at about 10pm and checked on what they were doing, ill-dog was tearing at a cardboard box (one of their toys) - I offered some small pieces of cooked chicken liver - he took it keenly - also showed a little interest in some hard boiled egg. I feel the end of the illness is in sight.

dark yellow urine is dehydration unless getting some vitamins which tend to give distinctive colour and smell (vitamin b's )... by the time the skin test (pick up skin and let drop) shows dehydration, the dog is really dehydrated...

Agreed, I am just giving a small amount - too much is rejected and is distressing him. I feel that a repeated small amounts spaced out during my doggie time is the best approach.

…as nienke said, offer honey by putting on nose... most dogs will lick it off, so works well...

My biggest discovery, dogs like sweet! Makes sense in the context of a scavenger seeking high energy food sources, and it’s not a case of them being trained to eat sweet foods - this is the very first time in their lives they have had access to anything sweet at all. No chocolate (bad anyway), no kids sharing things and no human left-overs. (Or left over humans for those post pedantic people reading this thread.)

i'm a worry wart, and i still go for the extreme in this case, that the chicken bones (cooked?) have caused an impaction or irritation to his gut...

I agree on this point, poor waste control from a certain group that live nearby is my thought, but there is no proof. If the food he ate was rotten it was probably a left over discarded meal.

The diarrhea is limited to one large splash & one smaller splash on Wednesday and on Thursday during the day a small amount that included some grass and in the evening a short squirt. No more events.

...forgot to ask, but must, does his stool stink really badly? parvo has a really distinctive smell to the stool... the green foam might be bile? or might be the grass u said he ate...

The diarrhea was not particularly offensive at all.

For completeness - his breath is fine too, nose not as moist as normal but not dry, mouth has saliva but oral inspections are resisted a little now as he is associating them with being given tablets. Otherwise still social with other dogs and responsive to commands etc. Not as dopey as the first 24 hours.

....(he shouldnt drop wait rapidly even by not eating, it is the dehydration that u can see if he drops weight every day, even 100 gram... the vet should weigh him, or u should, and write it down...)...

I will take on-board what you say, but with his improvements today I feel they do not warrant closer control. I am maintaining an illness diary to help measure progress and allow clear communication with the Thai vet. My Thai wife is on holiday this week, so my Thai is being more fully exercised.

...dont offer too many foods, wait really until he shows interest... usually dogs will ask for food when start feeling better although may not be willing to eat just anything... scrambled egg, chicken soup, no fatty things, and usually they dont want liver actually...

Yes, I’m in sync with their desires for different foods. And the turning point was finally cooked chicken liver, On Saturday (11th Oct) in the evening - just returned to normal self, ate some cooked meats. Sunday some raw fish and normal raw chicken etc. from the Monday. Normal stools returned on Sunday (12th).

I couldn't easily post an update as we were travelling during this week up country - so the recovery was well timed to allow a clear car.

Thank you for your thoughts on this incident.

I have another topic to raise here but it will need to wait until I have time for write clearly, in another thread.

[britmaveric]

Far as symptoms for runny stools - give a tablet of anti-Diarrhea, use that on my dog if she has a bad tummy and it usually helps.

Also give the dog a bland diet of rice/ground beef mixture. This usually helps solidify the poor dogs system.

Let the dog eat if he wants to - I wouldnt worry if he doesn't for a day or two - just telling you he doesnt feel good. Remember do you want to eat if you are sick?