Japanese Grand Prix @ Fuji

[dominique355]

Oh Dear, oh dear oh dear,

Massa doesn't give in to Hamilton's bullying tactics (he's known for that you know) and all of a sudden he's the bad guy.

Who was bullying who? Hamilton passed Massa into the corner, and then Massa cut the next turn and drove into the side of Hamilton. I'm confused...

And what about Hamilton's first corner, where he deliberately run wide by breaking way too late thus forcing the Ferrari of Kimi off track in order to avoid a collision. In the same manoeuvre he also forced other cars off the track, such as Massa and even Heiko. And please don't tell me this was a normal race accident. LS is not a rookie anymore, he knows the corner, the car. the breaking points and that his car's tires are cold. He took a deliberate decision to kick off Kimi, who had a better start.

OK, he got punished for that and PM got punished for his risky behavior. Nobody should complain. But the other drivers are getting fed up with LH driving style.

We might argue about this kind of penalty inflicted by the marshals, and I too believe this practice has gone too far. For heaven's sake let these guys race, Formula 1 is not an after-noon tea party. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. But why complaining that there is no real fighting in Formula 1 and no overtaking, but as soon as the guys do fight, they get punished.

I repeat that Max Mosley is pure poison for Formula 1; we really should get rid of this guy.

I agree with most of what you are saying, although i think you are completely wrong when you say that Hamilton deliberately decided to take Kimi off. He made the mistake of taking the first corner too fast and because of this had no other choice but to run wide. Incidently, he was by no means the only one to do so, although he was alone punished.

Other drivers getting fed up with LH driving style? I think he may at times be unnecessarily aggressive, and this isn't winning him any friends, but the main reason for others to dislike him is simply because he is faster than them.

In criminal law there is something called "dolus eventualis". It is somewhere between gross negligence and direct premeditation. You could look at it this way: The offender didn't really want the result of his action, but he knew it could happen and he was OK with that.

This kind of "contingent" premeditation (I don't know if this is the correct technical term in English) is treated like a direct premeditation.

And it seems to me that's exactly what LH did. He might not have wanted to hit Kimi, but he knew that his extremely late braking bore the risk of running wide and hitting someone, and knowing this, he went for it.

BTW, I hate to admit, but Massa's manoeuvre pretty much fits the same rule. (I am a Ferrari fan)

[H2oDunc]

I too found the penalty at the first corner a mystery ? First corner incidents are the norm I would have said. How many times have we seen carnage at the first corner as the first 6 cars all try to be the first round it. Its called racing. Thats what people watch F1 for. As for LH being a bully I disagree. Yes hes young and keen to make his mark on F1 but is in no way like MS was or AS. I used to be a fan of MS till he started to get to big for his boots. I totally went off him when he refused to help his teammate Irvine, In my opinion a proper F1 driver, win the world championship after breaking his leg.

I thik PM is a far better driver than KR and that KR is well upset to have been out driven by his team mate.

I would rather watch the 2 leaders fight it ot on the track rather than havethe championsip decided by the stewards. Its been a very close season this year and I would like to see LH take the championship. I think it would settle him down a little for next season and Maclaren have worked hard this season. I think t should be a good season next year with slicks back again.

Ad finally I also think Max Mosely is the worst thing for F1 and needs to be pensioned off for the sake of the sport. He is even trying to make F1 green for pitys sake. I dont know 1 F1 fan who would like to see catalytic conveters on cars and them using greener fuels. F1 fans want petrol gobbling, loud, turbo powered V10 or V12 cars with huge amounts of BHP screaming round the tracks. Roll on tomorrow

[b19bry]

I really think you need to look at the video footage once again. There were many further down the field that also made a mess of the first corner. Let's punish them all shall we?

I checked the footage many times before I posted to be sure, all the drivers behind went off as a knock-on effect from LH's move, if you don't see that there's nothing more to say except the race stewards appear to agree with me.

I hate to break it to you, but the potential for accident is one of the compelling reasons why people watch Formula One. I'm not saying that anyone wants to see a driver get hurt, but they do want to see cars being driven hard and to the limit. And driving a car to the limit is not an exact science, so accidents will happen.

mmmm....so you watch the sport to see accidents.....fine, I watch it to see racing.

I'm struggling to see how you make the distinction. In both incidents, the driver drove to fast for the conditions and the situation. They both made mistakes, although neither of them did so intentionally. In one case it resulted in a few drivers running wide, although able to continue and with the whole race ahead of them. In the other, it took someone completely out from behind and denied them of a podium finish and the points that go along with that.

The fact that you don't see the difference is where we differ. LH may not have intended harm to his opponents but he clearly didn't mind running them off the track so he could be first into the corner at any cost.

Just a wild guess here, but you couldn't possibly have a soft spot for a certain team in red now could you?

Naa, they, like LH have made too many mistakes this year, Kubica would have walked it in an equal car and with the backing LH has had.

[JetsetBkk]

Only Hamilton ran way too hot into turn 1 forcing others off the track.

I really think you need to look at the video footage once again. There were many further down the field that also made a mess of the first corner. ...

I totally agree.

Also, Senna was a bully, Schumacher was a bully, Hamilton appears to be losing confidence and screwing things up.

PS. Qualifying on NOW.

Edit: And I wish Steve Slater would shut the **** up.

Edited October 18, 2008 by JetsetBkk

[rixalex]

I really think you need to look at the video footage once again. There were many further down the field that also made a mess of the first corner. Let's punish them all shall we?

I checked the footage many times before I posted to be sure, all the drivers behind went off as a knock-on effect from LH's move, if you don't see that there's nothing more to say except the race stewards appear to agree with me.

Just a wild guess here, but you couldn't possibly have a soft spot for a certain team in red now could you?

Naa, they, like LH have made too many mistakes this year, Kubica would have walked it in an equal car and with the backing LH has had.

Do you really the think the fact that your opinion concurs with that of the race stewards adds weight to what you are saying? We only have to look at the Bourdais penalty to know that the stewards have made a right royal mess of things this year.

If the stewards want to go all draconian on us and start penalising drivers for just racing, well so be it, but they have to do it across the field. The vast majority of decisions they have made this year have concerned the front two drivers. Do you think that's because only these two drivers have broken the new interpretations of the rules, or just because they and in particular, Lewis is under the media spot-light and with a fair few people who would love to see his downfall?

You think Kubica is a better driver than Lewis?! Really? Naa, Kubica is good but he won't be a great.

Time and time again Lewis proves that he has something special. Just look at yesterday's qualifying. Of course as Japan showed, it's only half the job done, but it does show he has the out and out pace to beat anyone. In fact, he's proved that from the first day he entered Formula One.

In ten years time the likes of Massa and Kubica will have been just other also-runs in Formula One, whereas Lewis will be remembered as a great. You'll see.

[funfun]

"1n ten years time the likes of Massa and Kubica will have been just other also-runs in Formula One, whereas Lewis will be remembered as a great. You'll see. wink.gif

massa, will be remembered anyway as he is a good driver as this year has shown, whist raikonen and hamilton have been fighting massas just got on with it, hamilton was a junior last year and has improved this year and with a bit of luck today he will win, if not i would like to see raikonen win as he is a superb driver whos luck has let him down in the latter halfe of this year, where did alonzo come from?

well whatever happens hopefully it will be a good race today, my moneys on raikonen, my heart with hamilton, and that means it will prob be massa!!!

chris

[b19bry]

Do you really the think the fact that your opinion concurs with that of the race stewards adds weight to what you are saying? We only have to look at the Bourdais penalty to know that the stewards have made a right royal mess of things this year.

I think you're allowing your enthusiasm for LH to colour your judgement, to me they seem to get it right most of the time, though I agree the Bourdais penalty was a little draconian.

If the stewards want to go all draconian on us and start penalising drivers for just racing, well so be it, but they have to do it across the field. The vast majority of decisions they have made this year have concerned the front two drivers. Do you think that's because only these two drivers have broken the new interpretations of the rules, or just because they and in particular, Lewis is under the media spot-light and with a fair few people who would love to see his downfall?

I have no particular agenda against any driver, just that I'd like to see the sport cleaned up and unsportsmanlike driving punished.

You think Kubica is a better driver than Lewis?! Really? Naa, Kubica is good but he won't be a great.

I think he's driven with fewer mistakes this year in an inferior car. He's also in a German team with a German teammate !

Time and time again Lewis proves that he has something special.

You're right, unfortunately too often he then overdrives and makes a stupid mistake, Canada, Spa, Japan being recent examples.

In ten years time the likes of Massa and Kubica will have been just other also-runs in Formula One, whereas Lewis will be remembered as a great. You'll see.

If he can clean up his driving I might agree with you, right now he's on course to be another Senna/Schumacher who though exceptionally talented were also bullies on the track which taints there legacy.

Edited October 19, 2008 by b19bry

[rixalex]

Do you really the think the fact that your opinion concurs with that of the race stewards adds weight to what you are saying? We only have to look at the Bourdais penalty to know that the stewards have made a right royal mess of things this year.

I think you're allowing your enthusiasm for LH to colour your judgement, to me they seem to get it right most of the time, though I agree the Bourdais penalty was a little draconian.

If the stewards want to go all draconian on us and start penalising drivers for just racing, well so be it, but they have to do it across the field. The vast majority of decisions they have made this year have concerned the front two drivers. Do you think that's because only these two drivers have broken the new interpretations of the rules, or just because they and in particular, Lewis is under the media spot-light and with a fair few people who would love to see his downfall?

I have no particular agenda against any driver, just that I'd like to see the sport cleaned up and unsportsmanlike driving punished.

You think Kubica is a better driver than Lewis?! Really? Naa, Kubica is good but he won't be a great.

I think he's driven with fewer mistakes this year in an inferior car. He's also in a German team with a German teammate !

Time and time again Lewis proves that he has something special.

You're right, unfortunately too often he then overdrives and makes a stupid mistake, Canada, Spa, Japan being recent examples.

In ten years time the likes of Massa and Kubica will have been just other also-runs in Formula One, whereas Lewis will be remembered as a great. You'll see.

If he can clean up his driving I might agree with you, right now he's on course to be another Senna/Schumacher who though exceptionally talented were also bullies on the track which taints there legacy.

I agree with most of your points there!

If you are campaigning for regulations to be toughened, and indeed for those regulations to be apllied throughout the field, then although i don't agree, i respect that stand-point. The trouble is that many of those who share your view, conveniently only came to this conclusion once Lewis came on the scene, and Lewis was certainly not the first to drive aggressively, and nor has he been the worst offender, if offending is truly what it is. I see it rather as driving with confidence and conviction, but accept the line can and sometimes is crossed.

As for Kubica driving with fewer mistakes, i think you are right, but it's easier to make fewer mistakes when you are driving slower of course. In many races he's been racing just for points, not for wins. Maybe not his fault, but my point is you are again dealing in ifs and maybes. How do we know how many mistakes Kubica might have made had he been driving at the sharp end and fighting for wins?

As for Schumacher and Senna.. well they might have in your eyes a tainted legacy, but they do at least have a legacy, and if you imagine the last 20 years without them both, what a loss to the sport that would be.

P.S. you said you thought the Bourdais penalty was a little draconian - for me that decision was nothing to do with being draconian, it was just plain wrong, and suspiciously in favour of one certain team.

[b19bry]

As for Kubica driving with fewer mistakes, i think you are right, but it's easier to make fewer mistakes when you are driving slower of course.

Mmm....he's not driving slower, just that his car is slower, he works as hard to finish 3rd, 4th whatever, as Lewis does to win !

As for Schumacher and Senna.. well they might have in your eyes a tainted legacy, but they do at least have a legacy, and if you imagine the last 20 years without them both, what a loss to the sport that would be.

But their legacies could have been so much more, they didn't need to resort to the tactics that they did. I can assure you the sport was in better shape and more exciting 20 years (maybe a little more) ago than the media focused and somewhat antiseptic spectacle we see today, or maybe I'm just getting too old

Anyway, your guy won fair and square today so well done to that !

[Thaddeus]

Anyway, your guy won fair and square today so well done to that !

And let's hope we don't get a repeat of last season.

[rixalex]

As for Kubica driving with fewer mistakes, i think you are right, but it's easier to make fewer mistakes when you are driving slower of course.

Mmm....he's not driving slower, just that his car is slower, he works as hard to finish 3rd, 4th whatever, as Lewis does to win !

In football when a good team beats a bad team, and people belittle the win by saying they only won because the other team played badly, there's an expression, "you can ony beat what is in front of you".

The basic principle of this expression rings true here. Lewis can only drive the car he is given. If it happens to be better than that which another driver is driving, such as Kubica, then that's just the way it is. Whether or not Kubica would be as good in the same car, or whether or not Lewis would do any better than Kubica does in his car.. well i say again, they are all imponderables that we'll never know.

One way we can get a good and true indication of how well a driver is doing is to compare with that driver's team mate. In the case of Lewis, he has really blown away Heikki. Has Kubica blown away Heidfeld? You tell me.