Cambodia Threatens War With Thailand Within 24 Hours

[Payboy]

Maybe it's time for a little attitude adjustment?

the cartoon in today's bangkok post is proof of that....

but what else can you expect from a paper that peddles products that give "big boobs and tight puss"....

Edited October 15, 2008 by Payboy

[sjaak327]

Thailand did not start this mess.

Hun Sen came out with his ultimatum while Thai foreign minister was still on the plan back from the talks with his Cambodian counterpart.

Cambodia doesn't have any legal jurisdiction over the disputed area. Both countries soldiers are there, and have been there for months now.

Oh, and most Thais don't give a fuc_k about Cambodia, it's a long long way from "kill Cambodians" calls here. Most are caught by surpirse.

Yep they don't give a fuc_k, they even look down on them. Go figure. Says more about the Thais then about the Khmers.

Of course I don't fully understand Hun Sen's ultimatum either, but of course it's the Thais that are to blame, the deal Noppadom made with Cambodia made perfect sense (for both parties). Until some idiots in Thailand, all of a sudden screamed bloody murder. That is of course the real cause of this mess.

The PAD the true Thai nationalists. Maybe they could send sondhi over there, good place for his final battle.

Edited October 15, 2008 by sjaak327

[Plus]

Cambodians shouldn't have listed the temple over Thai objections, in prinicple Thailand doesn't mind their listing, it should have been negotiated further.

Thailand claims sovereignty over disputed areas, but it let Cambodians to use them decades, and it certainly is not going to start a war over it. Right now Hun Sen feels it's a good time for some land grab, order Thais out and threaten a war over land that does not belong to Cambodia in any way.

[sjaak327]

Cambodians shouldn't have listed the temple over Thai objections, in prinicple Thailand doesn't mind their listing, it should have been negotiated further.

Thailand claims sovereignty over disputed areas, but it let Cambodians to use them decades, and it certainly is not going to start a war over it. Right now Hun Sen feels it's a good time for some land grab, order Thais out and threaten a war over land that does not belong to Cambodia in any way.

They didn't, they had formal Thai approval, which was subsequently withdrawn. In any case, they have every right to list the temple, as it is their temple, and as far as I know there is no dispute about that since 1962.

The disputed land might by the stretch of imagination not be Cambodian, by the same criteria it isn't Thai either.

[jfchandler]

Rank 14

Thailand

Active Personnel 306,600[23]

Reserve Force 200,000[24]

Paramilitary 113,700[25]

Total 625,300

Active troops per thousand citizens 4.80

Rank 37

Cambodia

Active Personnel 124,300[66]

Reserve Force 0[67]

Paramilitary 67,000[67]

Total 191,000

Active troops per thousand citizens 9.19

Source:

List of countries ranked by number of active troops

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...f_active_troops

Another source says that as of 2006, Thailand had about 333 main battle tanks and 950 armored personnel carriers, whereas Cambodia had about 150 tanks and 190 APCs.

Also as of 2006, Thailand was reported to have a bit over 550 military combat aircraft (fixed wing and rotary) spread among the different services, whereas Cambodia was reported to have just 24 Air Force fixed wing combat aircraft and 18 Air Force combat helicopters.

In terms of navies, Thailand was reported to have about 210 naval combat ships and vessels of all varieties, whereas Cambodia was said to have just 10 patrol boats.

And, I should have added, the report also estimated that as of 2006, Thailand was spending about $2 billion per year on its military, compared to about $75 million for Cambodia.

Source:

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/060626...ance_powers.pdf

Edited October 15, 2008 by jfchandler

[Payboy]

guess we really need to push through the gripen fighter deal now....

[Plus]

Noppadon didn't represent Thailand in those negotiations. Thais objected to Cambodian claims a few months earlier, and Cambodians knew that very well. Noppadon was a boon for them, but don't forget that he was removed from the scene before the listing, and Thais portested, again. When Cambodian went ahead and listed the temple unilaterally, they knew dam_n well Thais would respond to that in kind, i.e. they can forget about disputed land, Thais won't let them have it anymore. Now, not satisfied with the listing, Hun Sen wants to push Thailand even further back.

I mean, he got what he wanted - the temple and the listing. What more does he want?

[Old Man River]

Thailand, Cambodia On Brink Of War

I wonder how many people in Phnom Penh and Bangkok are aware of this danger. I am in Bangkok and nobody has mentioned anything about this all day. I would imagine it would be the same in Phnom Penh.

[gorshar]

Cambodians shouldn't have listed the temple over Thai objections

Why not? It's Cambodia's temple. Do you think if Thailand had been awarded sovereignty over the temple they'd be asking Cambodia's permission for World Heritage status? Swampland in Florida anyone?

Thailand claims sovereignty over disputed areas, but it let Cambodians to use them decades

So does Cambodia. Thailand's claim is no better than Cambodia's claim.

and it certainly is not going to start a war over it.

Then the military should never have come there in the first place.

Right now Hun Sen feels it's a good time for some land grab, order Thais out and threaten a war over land that does not belong to Cambodia in any way.

I'm not going to claim to know Hun Sen's mind, but I do know that Cambodia doesn't have a chance against Thailand in a war and I'm sure Hun Sen knows this as well. The term sabre-rattling does come to mind now. Maybe what Hun Sen really wants is a little more attention and pressure from the international community to get Thailand to back down? And the land doesn't belong to Thailand in any way, either.

[phibunmike]

Cambodians shouldn't have listed the temple over Thai objections, in prinicple Thailand doesn't mind their listing, it should have been negotiated further.

Thailand claims sovereignty over disputed areas, but it let Cambodians to use them decades, and it certainly is not going to start a war over it. Right now Hun Sen feels it's a good time for some land grab, order Thais out and threaten a war over land that does not belong to Cambodia in any way.

Using the listing for World Heritage Status as an excuse is a red herring.

Article 11-3 of the UNESCO World Heritage Convention says:

"The inclusion of a property in the World Heritage List requires the consent of the State concerned. The inclusion of a property situated in a territory, sovereignty or jurisdiction over which is claimed by more than one State shall in no way prejudice the rights of the parties to the dispute."

[monty]

I wonder how many people in Phnom Penh and Bangkok are aware of this danger. I am in Bangkok and nobody has mentioned anything about this all day. I would imagine it would be the same in Phnom Penh.

Not too sure about that.

Depends a lot on the Cambodian media, remeber when there was this Thai soap opera with some negativity in it towards Cambodia and their population?

Ended up in some serious damage to the Thai Embassy in Pnom Penh along with quite a few Thai business looted, most notably the mobile phone company owned by Shin...

[Plus]

Actually the temple was going to be listed as a "site", not just the temple. Parts of the temple complex are on Thai territory, and they should have been covered by the listing too. It was against Unesco's own rules to cut and slice the place into "historically important" and "historically irrelevant and useless", according to modern border disputes.

Thais were supportive of unilateral bid as long as historical and cultural value of the whole area was recognised.

Thailand let Cambodian troops be present on disputing territories for months, it's Hun Sen who suddenly started talking about a war, while foreign ministers were talking about troop reduction.

[bangkokrick]

Is it just coincidence that Cinemax are now showing the movie 'Intrusion Cambodia'?

Cheers, Rick

[phibunmike]

Actually the temple was going to be listed as a "site", not just the temple. Parts of the temple complex are on Thai territory, and they should have been covered by the listing too. It was against Unesco's own rules to cut and slice the place into "historically important" and "historically irrelevant and useless", according to modern border disputes.

Hi Plus,

Can you explain which parts are in Thai territory please? The maps I have seen show the entire 'temple' (or 'complex') in Cambodian territory, and I wonder if I am missing some other parts of the complex.

Thanks,

Mike

[jfchandler]

Is it just coincidence that Cinemax are now showing the movie 'Intrusion Cambodia'?

Cheers, Rick

I happened to catch that the other day... HORRIBLY BAD movie....

I think it was filmed with (or in) the PHs.... Heard some strange accents there...

[skiman1]

Cambodian Brigadier says they suffered no casualties in the fighting

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jhyr2pl...wCOPSQD93QSBMG0

[george]

Fighting stops, one Cambodian soldier killed, 4 Thais injured

BANGKOK: -- Wednesday’s firefight between Thai and Cambodia soldiers has stopped, a senior Cambodian official said, while a Thai army spokesman reported that one Cambodian soldier was killed and four Thai soldiers were wounded.

The Associated Press quoted Cambodian army commander Brig. Gen. Yim Pim as saying that the fighting ``has paused.'' A Cambodian army official said both sides were trying to negotiate a cease-fire and talks were underway. Reuters reported two Cambodian soldiers were wounded in a brief firefight.

One Cambodian soldier was killed and four Thais were injured in the fighting over a disputed land near the Thai-Cambodia border, said the Thai army spokesman Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd.

Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong talked to his Thai counterpart by telephone on Wednesday morning. Both sides expressed regret over the border row and confirmed to adopt a peaceful means to end the dispute.

Thailand and Cambodia will hold bilateral talks to end the border row, said Thai foreign minister Sompong Amornvivat. He said he would seek approval of an operational framework under the Thai-Cambodian Joint Commission on Demarcation for Land Boundary (JBC) from the cabinet.

Department of Information director-general and Foreign Ministry spokesman Tharit Charungvat said he was informed by the Thai military that small arms and rocket propelled grenades were used in the clash between Thai and Cambodian soldiers. Mr. Tharit said that Thai soldiers confirmed that they would not begin any shooting, but they are prepared to counterattack to defend themselves under Article 51 of the UN charter.

Mr. Tharit added that the permanent secretary for foreign affairs would meet with the Cambodian charge d'affaires on Wednesday evening to lodge a protest note to Cambodia about the firefight.

He said prompt evacuation depends on the situation. According to the spokesman, there are about 1,000 Thai nationals in Phnom Penh and about 500 Thais in Siem Reap. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is cooperating with Thai Airways to prepare for possible evacuation, he said adding three flights can be arranged in a day.

-- TNA 2008-10-15

[Old Man River]

I wonder how many people in Phnom Penh and Bangkok are aware of this danger. I am in Bangkok and nobody has mentioned anything about this all day. I would imagine it would be the same in Phnom Penh.

Not too sure about that.

Depends a lot on the Cambodian media, remeber when there was this Thai soap opera with some negativity in it towards Cambodia and their population?

Ended up in some serious damage to the Thai Embassy in Pnom Penh along with quite a few Thai business looted, most notably the mobile phone company owned by Shin...

Perhaps you are right about Phnom Penh, but in Bangkok people are still shopping at Siam Paragon without a thought about Cambodia. Nobody, including my family, has taken any of this seriously.

[gorshar]

Perhaps you are right about Phnom Penh, but in Bangkok people are still shopping at Siam Paragon without a thought about Cambodia. Nobody, including my family, has taken any of this seriously.

In Siem Reap the Cambodians are taking this very seriously. The rumors flying around now say a lot of people dead at the border. Who knows what if any truth there is to that, but if people believe it, that's more than enough to escalate this.

[WAERTH]

Perhaps you are right about Phnom Penh, but in Bangkok people are still shopping at Siam Paragon without a thought about Cambodia. Nobody, including my family, has taken any of this seriously.

In Siem Reap the Cambodians are taking this very seriously. The rumors flying around now say a lot of people dead at the border. Who knows what if any truth there is to that, but if people believe it, that's more than enough to escalate this.

Good luck in Siem Reap then Gorlar!

[AlKing]

Actually the temple was going to be listed as a "site", not just the temple. Parts of the temple complex are on Thai territory, and they should have been covered by the listing too. It was against Unesco's own rules to cut and slice the place into "historically important" and "historically irrelevant and useless", according to modern border disputes.

Hi Plus,

Can you explain which parts are in Thai territory please? The maps I have seen show the entire 'temple' (or 'complex') in Cambodian territory, and I wonder if I am missing some other parts of the complex.

Thanks,

Mike

The ENTIRE TEMPLE complex 100% in Cambodia. None of it is in Thailand. The International Court of Justice has already ruled that. Thailand has already accepted that. Soon after, Thailand stop their ICJ membership and vowed not to seek ICJ to settle an more dispute.

However, there was NO ruling on the area surrounding the temple. I don't know why.

[AlKing]

Fighting stops, one Cambodian soldier killed, 4 Thais injured

BANGKOK: -- Wednesday's firefight between Thai and Cambodia soldiers has stopped, a senior Cambodian official said, while a Thai army spokesman reported that one Cambodian soldier was killed and four Thai soldiers were wounded.

The Associated Press quoted Cambodian army commander Brig. Gen. Yim Pim as saying that the fighting ``has paused.'' A Cambodian army official said both sides were trying to negotiate a cease-fire and talks were underway. Reuters reported two Cambodian soldiers were wounded in a brief firefight.

One Cambodian soldier was killed and four Thais were injured in the fighting over a disputed land near the Thai-Cambodia border, said the Thai army spokesman Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd.

Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong talked to his Thai counterpart by telephone on Wednesday morning. Both sides expressed regret over the border row and confirmed to adopt a peaceful means to end the dispute.

Thailand and Cambodia will hold bilateral talks to end the border row, said Thai foreign minister Sompong Amornvivat. He said he would seek approval of an operational framework under the Thai-Cambodian Joint Commission on Demarcation for Land Boundary (JBC) from the cabinet.

Department of Information director-general and Foreign Ministry spokesman Tharit Charungvat said he was informed by the Thai military that small arms and rocket propelled grenades were used in the clash between Thai and Cambodian soldiers. Mr. Tharit said that Thai soldiers confirmed that they would not begin any shooting, but they are prepared to counterattack to defend themselves under Article 51 of the UN charter.

Mr. Tharit added that the permanent secretary for foreign affairs would meet with the Cambodian charge d'affaires on Wednesday evening to lodge a protest note to Cambodia about the firefight.

He said prompt evacuation depends on the situation. According to the spokesman, there are about 1,000 Thai nationals in Phnom Penh and about 500 Thais in Siem Reap. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is cooperating with Thai Airways to prepare for possible evacuation, he said adding three flights can be arranged in a day.

-- TNA 2008-10-15

I wonder if Hun Sen will attend the dead soilder funeral. If he does, that will stir up a lot of sedimental support of Cambodia to take revenge.

I'll wire my Baht out if I were you. House and car will be in classified soon.

[Plus]

Actually the temple was going to be listed as a "site", not just the temple. Parts of the temple complex are on Thai territory, and they should have been covered by the listing too. It was against Unesco's own rules to cut and slice the place into "historically important" and "historically irrelevant and useless", according to modern border disputes.

Hi Plus,

Can you explain which parts are in Thai territory please? The maps I have seen show the entire 'temple' (or 'complex') in Cambodian territory, and I wonder if I am missing some other parts of the complex.

Thanks,

Mike

The pond, for example, you can see it on the maps posted in this thread.

There are some other structures, too, and the whole staircase. That's just from my memory. Don't quote me on that.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Plus

[Plus]

The ENTIRE TEMPLE complex 100% in Cambodia. None of it is in Thailand.

Not true.

Bangkok (Thailand), June 24 (CityNewsR): Foreign Affairs Minister Noppadon Pattama will request the Cabinet meeting today (June, 24th) to register “Satrao” or the canal surrounding the temple of Preah Vihear and its staircase on the Thai soil as World Heritage.

http://citynewsr.com/2008/06/24/cabinet-to...world-heritage/

Actually it's a Cambodian offician stand - they don't recognise anything beyond the court ruled border as being a part of the temple or the temple site. Thais have always disagreed. Even Noppadon, in his final days, realised that there's some historical value left on Thai side of the border. Too little too late, as they say. Damage was already done.

[bangkokrick]

One thing struck me as odd during my visit to the temple last year. When crossing over from the Thai side to the Cambodian side i was not asked to show my passport. This is the first time that i have crossed a border in Asia without being asked for my passport. I suppose the question is 'did i cross the border'?

The Thais would probably say that i did'nt.

Cheers, Rick

[bangkokrick]

I found this to be quite interesting.

(BangkokPost.com, TNA) - The Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs said foreign diplomats expressed their understanding about the border situation between Thailand and Cambodia. However, it was noted that Cambodian and Philippine envoys did not attend the briefing on Wednesday morning.

Department of Information director-general and Foreign Ministry spokesman Tharit Charungvat said Permanent Secretary for Foreign Affairs Veerasak Futrakul spent about 45 minutes to clarify the Thai-Cambodian border dispute to eight Asean ambassadors to Thailand.

According to Mr Tharit, the permanent secretary explained the incident when two Thai soldiers were wounded and had legs amputated after stepping on a landmine in Thai territory near Preah Vihear temple on Oct 3.

After inspection, the landmine was found to be a Russian-made PMN2 landmine. The Thai government claimed that the country never used this type of landmine before and it was recently planted.

During the briefing, Mr Veerasak further said Thailand and Cambodia are both signatories of the Ottawa Convention, and the landmine incident violated the agreement.

He reiterated Thailand's stance, saying the country will do its best to protect and maintain its sovereignty.

Mr Tharit said the foreign ambassadors expressed their understanding on the tense conflict between Thailand and Cambodia and they also thanked the ministry for promptly clarifying the situation.

The delegates from Singapore and Indonesia expressed special concern over the border row, and they would like Thailand and Cambodia to be considerate in solving the problem.

Cheers, Rick

[TAWP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMN_mine

http://www.nolandmines.com/minesPMN2.htm

And the note: "The International Campaign to Ban Landmines has sought to ban land mines culminating in the 1997 Ottawa Treaty, although this treaty has not yet been accepted by a number of countries including the USA, Russia, People's Republic of China and India."

And Russia likes to export their wares to anyone that pays and isn't supported by the US.

[Sarge]

Rank 14

Thailand

Active Personnel 306,600[23]

Reserve Force 200,000[24]

Paramilitary 113,700[25]

Total 625,300

Active troops per thousand citizens 4.80

Rank 37

Cambodia

Active Personnel 124,300[66]

Reserve Force 0[67]

Paramilitary 67,000[67]

Total 191,000

Active troops per thousand citizens 9.19

Source:

List of countries ranked by number of active troops

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...f_active_troops

Another source says that as of 2006, Thailand had about 333 main battle tanks and 950 armored personnel carriers, whereas Cambodia had about 150 tanks and 190 APCs.

Also as of 2006, Thailand was reported to have a bit over 550 military combat aircraft (fixed wing and rotary) spread among the different services, whereas Cambodia was reported to have just 24 Air Force fixed wing combat aircraft and 18 Air Force combat helicopters.

In terms of navies, Thailand was reported to have about 210 naval combat ships and vessels of all varieties, whereas Cambodia was said to have just 10 patrol boats.

And, I should have added, the report also estimated that as of 2006, Thailand was spending about $2 billion per year on its military, compared to about $75 million for Cambodia.

Source:

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/060626...ance_powers.pdf

I'm not sure how indicative that league table can be on the outcome of a possible full scale war between the two countries. Take for example UK:

UK

Active Personnel 195,500[47]

Reserve Force 233,860[47]

Paramilitary N/A

Total 429,761

Active troops per thousand citizens 3.09

Numbers can be deceptive, what matter more is the hardware, technology and above all combat readiness. Historically Thais have always believed that invasion was unlikely, and of course benefited from the defence umbrella provided by USA. As a consequence it devoted training programs, equipment inventory, and operational capabilities to counterinsurgency, the army thus shelved its primary mission and for more than a decade concentrated on providing internal security. So I'm not sure how combat ready is the Thai army in a conventional country v country full scale war. If were to happen my guess is that they would fight to a standstill, a bit like Iraq v Iran in the 80s. Obviously the best outcome would be negotiation through international arbitration of UN. Alternatively the Thai government could start cracking down on that criminal association called PAD, dismantle their unlawful network and incarcerate the leaders. Their continuing stoking the fires of nationalism, unlawful barricades (quietly supported by Abhisit Vejjajivaand) is damaging the country. At the same time they should void permit to stay to all those geriatric farang who supported PAD and make them persona non grata in Thailand.

[roamer]

I found this to be quite interesting.

(BangkokPost.com, TNA) - The Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs said foreign diplomats expressed their understanding about the border situation between Thailand and Cambodia. However, it was noted that Cambodian and Philippine envoys did not attend the briefing on Wednesday morning.

Department of Information director-general and Foreign Ministry spokesman Tharit Charungvat said Permanent Secretary for Foreign Affairs Veerasak Futrakul spent about 45 minutes to clarify the Thai-Cambodian border dispute to eight Asean ambassadors to Thailand.

According to Mr Tharit, the permanent secretary explained the incident when two Thai soldiers were wounded and had legs amputated after stepping on a landmine in Thai territory near Preah Vihear temple on Oct 3.

After inspection, the landmine was found to be a Russian-made PMN2 landmine. The Thai government claimed that the country never used this type of landmine before and it was recently planted.

During the briefing, Mr Veerasak further said Thailand and Cambodia are both signatories of the Ottawa Convention, and the landmine incident violated the agreement.

He reiterated Thailand's stance, saying the country will do its best to protect and maintain its sovereignty.

Mr Tharit said the foreign ambassadors expressed their understanding on the tense conflict between Thailand and Cambodia and they also thanked the ministry for promptly clarifying the situation.

The delegates from Singapore and Indonesia expressed special concern over the border row, and they would like Thailand and Cambodia to be considerate in solving the problem.

Cheers, Rick

Well the only thing wrong with that is this:

http://www.mech.uwa.edu.au/jpt/demining/info/pmn-2.html

One of the most common mines used in Cambodia.

[bangkokrick]

I found this to be quite interesting.

(BangkokPost.com, TNA) - The Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs said foreign diplomats expressed their understanding about the border situation between Thailand and Cambodia. However, it was noted that Cambodian and Philippine envoys did not attend the briefing on Wednesday morning.

Department of Information director-general and Foreign Ministry spokesman Tharit Charungvat said Permanent Secretary for Foreign Affairs Veerasak Futrakul spent about 45 minutes to clarify the Thai-Cambodian border dispute to eight Asean ambassadors to Thailand.

According to Mr Tharit, the permanent secretary explained the incident when two Thai soldiers were wounded and had legs amputated after stepping on a landmine in Thai territory near Preah Vihear temple on Oct 3.

After inspection, the landmine was found to be a Russian-made PMN2 landmine. The Thai government claimed that the country never used this type of landmine before and it was recently planted.

During the briefing, Mr Veerasak further said Thailand and Cambodia are both signatories of the Ottawa Convention, and the landmine incident violated the agreement.

He reiterated Thailand's stance, saying the country will do its best to protect and maintain its sovereignty.

Mr Tharit said the foreign ambassadors expressed their understanding on the tense conflict between Thailand and Cambodia and they also thanked the ministry for promptly clarifying the situation.

The delegates from Singapore and Indonesia expressed special concern over the border row, and they would like Thailand and Cambodia to be considerate in solving the problem.

Cheers, Rick

Well the only thing wrong with that is this:

http://www.mech.uwa.edu.au/jpt/demining/info/pmn-2.html

One of the most common mines used in Cambodia.

Interesting link,

Cheers, Rick