Looking For Experiences With Financially-based Relationships

[philstone]

I have hesitated about posting this for advice because I know it will draw a lot of flak, and a similarly themed post recently got closed. But I am very inexperienced in this kind of situation and want to know others' experiences.

I don't really deal with the commercial side of male-female interaction. I have taken customers out to experience the night-life, but it is not my personal thing.

I also know, and not just from the recently closed thread, that some men assist students with tuition and such in return for a relationship. I don't know if that is exactly quid-pro-quo or merely a happy man helping out his g/f (or is "g/f" even the right terminology?)

I have helped out a few girls I have known with one-time financial difficulties, but nothing on a regular or recurring basis.

OK, this is my situation: I recently met a woman on a dating website. We met, hit it off, and have gone out several times. She is a older than the typical student, but has gone back to finish the degree she started some time ago. She is fun, happy, stunningly gorgeous, and a real pleasure with whom to spend time. She makes me laugh.

She is also quite poor. She freely admits that she is considering working in a pub. She claims that is only to be a waitress. Unless she is an outstanding actress, she really does not have that much experience in intimacy, so I don't think she as delved into the sex-worker trade.

She has not asked for any money, but she has dropped a few hints that any help would be helpful.

Financially, I would not mind spending some money on tuition. (I am still paying for my ex-wife's medical school, and that is quite a bit more.) The money is no big deal. But I have read so much on tv about the commercial side of relationships that I am wary. Even after so many years here, I don't want to fall into that old-farang-falling-for-pretty-girl-who-hates-him-but-wants-the-money stereotype.

I can easily walk away now with few regrets. I have no real emotional attachment now. But as I wrote, she makes me laugh, and I enjoy her company.

So I am asking for others' experiences or observations. Is it possible to have a rewarding experience with someone when part of that has a regular financial aspect? If possible, is it likely?

I am way out of my league here with very little personal observations. And while I am sure there will be a number of flipant responses, I hope I can also receive some useful inputs.

I started doing what you are thinking of doing only good if you realize you can never buy anything in her near house car and every year it will cost more to stay with her. It cost the same as my married friends to Thai girls. What happens if you have baby with her? You being a nice guy will buy house and car for baby and start paying big money.

[sylviex]

It is true about this attitude to work -- there's a similar notion in Chinese culture (amongst others), that a student/"scholar" is a distinct category. The notion is that they are in an intermediate phase, between school and professional work & society (of course, in practice, lines are blurring more and more now).

According to this tradition, they are not yet adults and remain apart from the world of romantic/sexual involvement and other wordly concerns; focusing on their studies. They also take studies in and receive guidance about ethics and morals (this still happens in various ways). They remain protected by and controlled by the family -- in times past, members of the extended family would have taken care of their expenses. In the past, however, students were exclusively male, so the issue of "sponsorship" of young female students would not have arisen.

"Menial" jobs of the kind many "Westerners" undertook to fund their studies are still regarded as too face-loosing and humble for the professionals and leaders of the future -- yet there are obvious contradicitions as it's not very common to observe serious scholarly activity outside (or even inside) campus classrooms & everyone knows the money for the latest clothes, mobiles and so on has to come from somewhere.

Some Universities make sure their poorer/scholarship students are given face-saving on-campus jobs -- helping in the libraries, giving clerical assistance and so on.

Traditional Asian attitudes to women & relationships with women, together with relatively greater freedom for students & assorted social changes, appear to be intersecting with the traditional notion of the student's role in a rather unredeeming way -- for both male and female students.

I was heartened to read your post, jfchandler.

Many foreigners are all too keen to invent excuses for their activities -- it's "Thai culture" or it's "sponsorship" or it's "keeping them from the bars" or whatever.

No, it's not any of those -- it's pure and simple opportunism and self-interest at work.

I guess one could think of sponsorships as a kind of job. But if you look at the practice that way, then, it's very clear what's being sold. And at that point, it becomes hard to separate that from what goes on in the bars.

Of course -- the bars from which these magnanimous philanthropists are "saving" them.

People have an astounding capacity to convince themselves of the valour of whatever suits their convenience or desire.

Edited October 19, 2008 by sylviex

[jackyseymour]

There is something about the Thai custom and attitude toward being a university student...

I had an ex-GF and friend here who was and is a university student. I never supported her financially, but clearly she was interested in that. On my own, even though it had been suggested here above in this thread, I came to the conclusion that the better thing for me was to help her become self sufficient rather than simply doling out money as a sponsor.

So we had some long conversations about that, and how she, being quite personable and reasonably proficient in English, ought to be able to find a normal (not bar) part time job that she could do while finishing her studies. Over a period of time, she gave some half-hearted efforts at that, worked a little, and finally gave it up.

Within a year later, she had met and was being sponsored (XX,000 baht per month) by an English guy living abroad who, by her own admission, she was OK to date and be intimate with, but not in love with at all. As far as I know, she's still doing that to get thru school and not working or even trying to work.

When we talked before about the part-time job notion, her response to me was that Thai university students don't do that (work jobs to support their studies). They go to school, and after school, they study a bit and then want to have fun, that was her argument. None of her friends were working jobs, she pointed out. It also became very clear to me that for the typical Thai university student, the time demands of their studies are not so great that taking on part-time work would be a big problem.

Not being a univ. teacher here, I'm not in a position to opine on the share of Thai univ. students who support their studies through part time work (though I clearly know some do). In my own case, I paid for half of my university studies through working 3-4 nights a week on the graveyard (overnight) shift at 7-11s in the U.S., mopping floors and stocking shelves all through my college years.

So I tend to be a bit put off when people (Thai women) expect something to be handed to them for free, or, as the case may be, in exchange for having a sponsor. That's certainly the easier way out, I guess. But I'm not sure it's such a great thing for building character in today's Thai young people.

I guess one could think of sponsorships as a kind of job. But if you look at the practice that way, then, it's very clear what's being sold. And at that point, it becomes hard to separate that from what goes on in the bars.

You know, there was a feature in the local paper here on Phuket on Mother's Day here in Thailand, about a variety of Thai mothers and how they'd worked and sacrificed things for themselves to give their offspring an education in the hope of a decent start in life.

And I remember one elderly fisherwoman, who although widowed, had worked hard to finance her son's education in a university in Bangkok. She said she was sad to see he still had exactly the same clothes four years on, and that he'd been living and studying hard in one little room for that time, not wanting to be more of a financial burden on her than was absolutely necessary.

Shame he wasn't a cute girl with loose morals then wasn't it?

[sassienie]

Those kind souls that allege they want to help these girls with their education or because they are poor from the kindness of their hearts are either kidding themselves or everyone else.

The facts are that it’s all down to lust. I guarantee that if it were some old bag in her 50s, the OP wouldn’t give her the time of day.

The older guys that are prepared to buy a younger wife for their desirability in the bedroom would be better off taking advantage of Thailand’s night social structure and stick with pay as you go one night stands.

Those sad guys that wish to rent a wife/girlfriend and become involved in a relationship on the basis of paying for it, are idiots, plain and simple.

Many frequently end up murdered or stripped of their assets , for them my sympathy level is minus 10.

[patklang]

Hope i am not repeating what other posters have said( too bored to read them) but many thai ladies go on chat lines,dating agencies,camfrog,yahoo messenger etc etc.Go on them for a few days and see how many want bf,money,good life.Most of these girls are working girls who suppliment their money by getting farangs to send them more money.its fun also to chat them up knowing that they will ask for money soon or want to meet you and get cash for service.Many of these live in bangkok and are far more devious than the apattaya/phuket type girls

Edited October 19, 2008 by patklang

[a2396]

Well, where's the "age police" on this one and the other assorted "slashers & basheres" who claim they don't give their GF's any money? If you have to give her money, she's not your GF - right? As for my honest opinion almost all relationship with between a Farang and a Thai lady involves money. It's like waving a steak at a bulldog. If you can reach a reasonable level of communication, as to what you expect and what the lady will do, good luck. Most of the ones I have seen cannot be trusted and are incapable and/or unwilling to tell the truth.

[patklang]

Those kind souls that allege they want to help these girls with their education or because they are poor from the kindness of their hearts are either kidding themselves or everyone else.

The facts are that it's all down to lust. I guarantee that if it were some old bag in her 50s, the OP wouldn't give her the time of day.

The older guys that are prepared to buy a younger wife for their desirability in the bedroom would be better off taking advantage of Thailand's night social structure and stick with pay as you go one night stands.

Those sad guys that wish to rent a wife/girlfriend and become involved in a relationship on the basis of paying for it, are idiots, plain and simple.

Many frequently end up murdered or stripped of their assets , for them my sympathy level is minus 10.

very true sass,

never ceases to amaze me when guys say things like,

1/ she university lady,weri cwever

2/she not bar girl

3/ met her on a chat line so much better than a working girl.

get a life guys and wise up.

[patklang]

Well, where's the "age police" on this one and the other assorted "slashers & basheres" who claim they don't give their GF's any money? If you have to give her money, she's not your GF - right? As for my honest opinion almost all relationship with between a Farang and a Thai lady involves money. It's like waving a steak at a bulldog. If you can reach a reasonable level of communication, as to what you expect and what the lady will do, good luck. Most of the ones I have seen cannot be trusted and are incapable and/or unwilling to tell the truth.

totaly wrong,if you think like that you can never have a good relationship.i am the happiest man alive with my gf and thats my business only,nothing to do with any one else,so no info other than i dont give her a monthly allowance,my preference and she not moan.

[sassienie]

Those kind souls that allege they want to help these girls with their education or because they are poor from the kindness of their hearts are either kidding themselves or everyone else.

The facts are that it's all down to lust. I guarantee that if it were some old bag in her 50s, the OP wouldn't give her the time of day.

The older guys that are prepared to buy a younger wife for their desirability in the bedroom would be better off taking advantage of Thailand's night social structure and stick with pay as you go one night stands.

Those sad guys that wish to rent a wife/girlfriend and become involved in a relationship on the basis of paying for it, are idiots, plain and simple.

Many frequently end up murdered or stripped of their assets , for them my sympathy level is minus 10.

very true sass,

never ceases to amaze me when guys say things like,

1/ she university lady,weri cwever

2/she not bar girl

3/ met her on a chat line so much better than a working girl.

get a life guys and wise up.

Oh, I see, the Ops in love, aren’t they all?

Fools never listen to advice or use common sense, they only learn by experience.

[Shotime]

Me and my Thai Working Girl Friend believe that romance without finance is a nuisance.

[473geo]

Although I understand elements of the remarks here that advise charitable assistance is to be excluded based on the grounds that the students should work alongside their studies to achieve a more 'balanced' start in life. I am a little bemused that the whole Thai culture of 'giving' is lost on so many of the posters. This is one of the most redeeming features of Thai lifestyle. I do not need to provide examples, of which I have many, those who have experienced this way of life first hand understand, those that do not wish to, will not. Suffice to say if you have, you share, how you distribute is down to your own thought process.......you will see a fellow human being struggle when you have the means to assist....not if you're a Thai you don't....your last baht is their last baht.

Good luck to the girls who aquire assistance for education......they may suffer for their knowledge and qualifications more than you imagine....

Work out a way to assist this young lady.....guided by some of the above advice......but do it!!!

[sylviex]

Although I understand elements of the remarks here that advise charitable assistance is to be excluded based on the grounds that the students should work alongside their studies to achieve a more 'balanced' start in life. I am a little bemused that the whole Thai culture of 'giving' is lost on so many of the posters. This is one of the most redeeming features of Thai lifestyle. I do not need to provide examples, of which I have many, those who have experienced this way of life first hand understand, those that do not wish to, will not. Suffice to say if you have, you share, how you distribute is down to your own thought process.......you will see a fellow human being struggle when you have the means to assist....not if you're a Thai you don't....your last baht is their last baht.

Good luck to the girls who aquire assistance for education......they may suffer for their knowledge and qualifications more than you imagine....

Work out a way to assist this young lady.....guided by some of the above advice......but do it!!!

473geo, are you missing the fact that the young men/women are expected to provide "something" in return ??

[GuestHouse]

I am a little bemused that the whole Thai culture of 'giving' is lost on so many of the posters.

Can we please not confuse the culture of giving with the culture of taking.

The idea that 'Giving' is something unique to Thai society is absurd - Though I would observe that while I have lived and worked in a number of countries (several in Asia) it is only in Thailand that I have ever had local people asking me for loans/handouts.

[473geo]

Although I understand elements of the remarks here that advise charitable assistance is to be excluded based on the grounds that the students should work alongside their studies to achieve a more 'balanced' start in life. I am a little bemused that the whole Thai culture of 'giving' is lost on so many of the posters. This is one of the most redeeming features of Thai lifestyle. I do not need to provide examples, of which I have many, those who have experienced this way of life first hand understand, those that do not wish to, will not. Suffice to say if you have, you share, how you distribute is down to your own thought process.......you will see a fellow human being struggle when you have the means to assist....not if you're a Thai you don't....your last baht is their last baht.

Good luck to the girls who aquire assistance for education......they may suffer for their knowledge and qualifications more than you imagine....

Work out a way to assist this young lady.....guided by some of the above advice......but do it!!!

473geo, are you missing the fact that the young men/women are expected to provide "something" in return ??

I think if you work at Mcdons, or for a cleaning company or for the college itself,.......you are expcted to give something in return.

[473geo]

I am a little bemused that the whole Thai culture of 'giving' is lost on so many of the posters.

Can we please not confuse the culture of giving with the culture of taking.

The idea that 'Giving' is something unique to Thai society is absurd - Though I would observe that while I have lived and worked in a number of countries (several in Asia) it is only in Thailand that I have ever had local people asking me for loans/handouts.

Thank you for reiterating the point I made about understanding......you see the Thai people never take...they...'only ask'......

[sylviex]

I think if you work at Mcdons, or for a cleaning company or for the college itself,.......you are expcted to give something in return.

All the same, is it ?

[RoyalOrchid]

Some men enjoy spending money on a chick, especially if they are not very good looking, and kinda loosers, cause that makes them feel big shots and feel like they own this person and can get together with her whenever they like. For the girls here it's a good bet, they have the freedom to do what they want (get married, have boyfriend, kids etc), and for the guy it's also good, cause otherwise who would even look at him, let alone, touch him?

So if it's a good deal for both of you, go for it, and everyody would be happy

[sylviex]

otherwise who would even look at him, let alone, touch him?

Perhaps someone would.

However, for these young students, male or female, if a sexual relationship were to occur naturally and freely, there'd be no need for money (apparently the obvious requires stating here).

Is that what you'd wish for your daughter/son (grand daughter/grandson) ... or any other young person ?

Is a natural and free experience of intimacy not what we wish for them, at the beginning of their romantic & sexual lives ?

Some of you evidently see no problem with this. If that's the case ... I really don't know what to say.

At least admit that this is p**********n (forum rules) and not "sponsorship" or "patronage" or whatever other term makes you feel better about yourself.

[MKAsok]

However, for these young students, male or female, if a sexual relationship were to occur naturally and freely, there'd be no need for money (apparently the obvious requires stating here).

It's not 'the obvious' at all. You're trying to impose your own cultural norms on a situation in a vastly different culture. But that's another discussion. The only real question here (as usual) is whether the OP considers himself to be in a relationship with a girl who actually has any real feelings for him. If it's not the case, then yes, he may as well be paying a prostitute and should be fully prepared to reap the possible whirlwind of the long-term consequences of a manipulative and exploitative relationship (on both sides).

[jfchandler]

"Menial" jobs of the kind many "Westerners" undertook to fund their studies are still regarded as too face-loosing and humble for the professionals and leaders of the future -- yet there are obvious contradictions as it's not very common to observe serious scholarly activity outside (or even inside) campus classrooms & everyone knows the money for the latest clothes, mobiles and so on has to come from somewhere.

While there's certainly some element of that here, I think it's more broadly true that the vast majority of Thai young people attending and completing university today will go onto pretty normal, unremarkable careers, if they have any career at all. Thailand has benefited, like the U.S. has in past years, from the vast expansion of higher education opportunities to the "masses" in some form or another. But the numbers of Thai young people I meet who have some kind of university degree and no particularly professional employment are overwhelming. So to say working while studying would be too "face-loosing" for these folks misses the mark, in my opinion.

During my college years, my parents were mid-level professionals. They helped pay for part of my education, and expected me to pay the remainder. I always thought that was a pretty fair deal. It never occurred to me to have the attitude that working was beneath me or face-loosing. And in fact, even working at humble jobs teaches you things about the real world and getting along with colleagues and dealing with customers -- all things useful in any future career. I went onto a 15-year career as a writer for one of the largest newspapers in the U.S., and another decade as a university administrator.

Looking back, I never regret for a moment that I had to work during college. And in fact, most of my peers in the U.S., men and women alike, were doing similar things to support their studies. During my past decade working at a large master's-level, urban public U.S. university, students not working to support themselves would be quite the exception.... not the rule. It's curious to me that Thailand seems to have such a different take on this.

[jdinasia]

However, for these young students, male or female, if a sexual relationship were to occur naturally and freely, there'd be no need for money (apparently the obvious requires stating here).

It's not 'the obvious' at all. You're trying to impose your own cultural norms on a situation in a vastly different culture. But that's another discussion. The only real question here (as usual) is whether the OP considers himself to be in a relationship with a girl who actually has any real feelings for him. If it's not the case, then yes, he may as well be paying a prostitute and should be fully prepared to reap the possible whirlwind of the long-term consequences of a manipulative and exploitative relationship (on both sides).

Trying to impose your concept of what are cultural norms in Thailand to a relationship between a farang and a Thai of significantly differing ages and financial backgrounds is just as questionable as anything else in this thread.

The Thai families I know just would not accept that sex for money was acceptable in any way. Yes there are certainly some out there but then you are talking about aberrations due to deep financial disparity and other than in places where poverty was the overriding issue in daily life you just wouldn't find participants.

We tend (my partner and I) to vacation in areas and hotels that average Thai families that are not poor go to, and it is not uncommon to see some reaction from them over our relationship. Most of the time he ignores it but on occasion, out will come the business card etc to push people's preconceived notions back down their throats.

Even those middle-aged Thai men that have mia-noi do not parade them about in public thinking it is acceptable. So don't compare the foreigner/thai similar situation with that ...

[MKAsok]

Trying to impose your concept of what are cultural norms in Thailand to a relationship between a farang and a Thai of significantly differing ages and financial backgrounds is just as questionable as anything else in this thread.

The Thai families I know just would not accept that sex for money was acceptable in any way.

I'm assuming you misunderstood me jd. I'm not in any way claiming Thai families 'accept that sex for money (is) acceptable in any way.' I'm claiming that financial support as an expression of love in Thai culture is far more prevalent and accepted than is generally the case in western cultures. Thus the assertion that 'there'd be no need for money' is somewhat misleading. Yes, there would be no absolute need for money, but if the partner was in a position to provide support it would be (generally speaking) fully expected and given willingly.

mk

[sylviex]

Just very quickly ...

(sylviex @ 2008-10-19 14:13:35) "Menial" jobs of the kind many "Westerners" undertook to fund their studies are still regarded as too face-loosing and humble for the professionals and leaders of the future -- yet there are obvious contradictions as it's not very common to observe serious scholarly activity outside (or even inside) campus classrooms & everyone knows the money for the latest clothes, mobiles and so on has to come from somewhere.

I agree with you -- the phrase you highlighted was written with tongue rather in cheek. That's the notion, not the reality.

While there's certainly some element of that here, I think it's more broadly true that the vast majority of Thai young people attending and completing university today will go onto pretty normal, unremarkable careers, if they have any career at all. Thailand has benefited, like the U.S. has in past years, from the vast expansion of higher education opportunities to the "masses" in some form or another. But the numbers of Thai young people I meet who have some kind of university degree and no particularly professional employment are overwhelming. So to say working while studying would be too "face-losing" for these folks misses the mark, in my opinion.

Agree -- much of the education is neither scholarly nor vocational .

But "scholars" still consider "menial" work face-losing. A traditional notion; perhaps now used partly as an excuse not to work ...

During my college years, my parents were mid-level professionals. They helped pay for part of my education, and expected me to pay the remainder. I always thought that was a pretty fair deal. It never occurred to me to have the attitude that working was beneath me or face-loosing. And in fact, even working at humble jobs teaches you things about the real world and getting along with colleagues and dealing with customers -- all things useful in any future career. I went onto a 15-year career as a writer for one of the largest newspapers in the U.S., and another decade as a university administrator.

Quite agree & my own experience was much the same.

Looking back, I never regret for a moment that I had to work during college. And in fact, most of my peers in the U.S., men and women alike, were doing similar things to support their studies. During my past decade working at a large master's-level, urban public U.S. university, students not working to support themselves would be quite the exception.... not the rule.

Indeed !

....

Also agree with the point jdinasia is making. See my remarks above re foreigners claiming all manner of activities as "Thai culture"

[Sarge]

"also know, and not just from the recently closed thread, that some men assist students with tuition and such in return for a relationship."

lol most of the farang paying girls for a relationship are not doing so with students that is for sure.

Actually, most of the men that I know who are doing this are Thai. Very few farangs of whom I am aware are doing this.

ok how r they meeting these girls in teh first place?

Want to get in on the act?

Nobody tell him, please.

tam mai, wanna keep it private? there has never better a place than Thailand in finding women eager to part you from your cash. Just hang out any university long enough and you'll be poorer for it

[jdinasia]

However, for these young students, male or female, if a sexual relationship were to occur naturally and freely, there'd be no need for money (apparently the obvious requires stating here).

It's not 'the obvious' at all. You're trying to impose your own cultural norms on a situation in a vastly different culture. But that's another discussion. The only real question here (as usual) is whether the OP considers himself to be in a relationship with a girl who actually has any real feelings for him. If it's not the case, then yes, he may as well be paying a prostitute and should be fully prepared to reap the possible whirlwind of the long-term consequences of a manipulative and exploitative relationship (on both sides).

hmmm by applying the cultural norms of most families in Thailand, if she isn't married to the guy and accepts money and offers sex ......

Don't think that Nana/cowboy etc are 'normal' in Thailand.

[Sarge]

would you like to be in a relationship with a girl that is thinking about your money 24/7?

If she swallows, why not?

that's something worth considering for

I'd quite happy if she doesn't nag, burden me with her mood swings and insecurities. Keeping the floor tidy & clean is a bonus. Now where does one find such a gem in Thailand?

[MiG16]

Ive deleted a very nasty remark

the poster has also been suspended from posting rights.

unless anyone else would like to join, Id suggest you all to remain civil.

[a2396]

Trying to impose your concept of what are cultural norms in Thailand to a relationship between a farang and a Thai of significantly differing ages and financial backgrounds is just as questionable as anything else in this thread.

The Thai families I know just would not accept that sex for money was acceptable in any way.

I'm assuming you misunderstood me jd. I'm not in any way claiming Thai families 'accept that sex for money (is) acceptable in any way.' I'm claiming that financial support as an expression of love in Thai culture is far more prevalent and accepted than is generally the case in western cultures. Thus the assertion that 'there'd be no need for money' is somewhat misleading. Yes, there would be no absolute need for money, but if the partner was in a position to provide support it would be (generally speaking) fully expected and given willingly.

mk

Most of the time the families don't know what the girl is doing anyway and she is not going to tell them. Hi-so girls don't do this because they don't have money needs.

[MKAsok]

hmmm by applying the cultural norms of most families in Thailand, if she isn't married to the guy and accepts money and offers sex ......

Don't think that Nana/cowboy etc are 'normal' in Thailand.

Yes, but we're not discussing Nana or Cowboy here are we? The OP has said in his OP that he does not believe this girl to be a prostitute. Further, the real nut of his question, as I understand it, is this: 'Is it possible to have a rewarding experience with someone when part of that has a regular financial aspect? If possible, is it likely?'

Read my post again. Here's a simplified version just in case you still can't understand it...

1) The expectancy of some financial support (assuming you are in a position to give it) is not unusual in in any kind of relationship in Thailand and is certainly not confined to client/prostitute relationships. A degree of financial expectancy, in a Thai cultural context, certainly should not give rise to the automatic assumption that the girl is a prostitute.

2) Does the OP honestly believe the girl has genuine feelings for him and that this is a relationship that would have developed irrespective of her need to finance her education? If not, this is a business relationship (such as that between a client and a prostitute/quasi-prostitute/long term 'girlfriend' who you pay for, whatever) and should be treated as such. Such relationships have been know to have negative long-term issues.

Clear enough?

[jdinasia]

You aren't really believing that are you ... re "1)"?

Let's talk about that Thai cultural context you mention. Where do intergenerational non-married financial arrangements between people having sex with each other fit in to the Thai cultural context you mention?