Looking For Experiences With Financially-based Relationships

[Shotime]

Although I understand elements of the remarks here that advise charitable assistance is to be excluded based on the grounds that the students should work alongside their studies to achieve a more 'balanced' start in life. I am a little bemused that the whole Thai culture of 'giving' is lost on so many of the posters. This is one of the most redeeming features of Thai lifestyle. I do not need to provide examples, of which I have many, those who have experienced this way of life first hand understand, those that do not wish to, will not. Suffice to say if you have, you share, how you distribute is down to your own thought process.......you will see a fellow human being struggle when you have the means to assist....not if you're a Thai you don't....your last baht is their last baht.

Good luck to the girls who aquire assistance for education......they may suffer for their knowledge and qualifications more than you imagine....

Work out a way to assist this young lady.....guided by some of the above advice......but do it!!!

473geo, are you missing the fact that the young men/women are expected to provide "something" in return ??

Like what? Good grades.

[473geo]

You aren't really believing that are you ... re "1)"?

Let's talk about that Thai cultural context you mention. Where do intergenerational non-married financial arrangements between people having sex with each other fit in to the Thai cultural context you mention?

The Mia Noi???.....

[Ruperts]

Those sad guys that wish to rent a wife/girlfriend and become involved in a relationship on the basis of paying for it, are idiots, plain and simple.

Maybe they have no choice. Many of 'those sad guys' are forced into that situation after being rejected again and again by the shallow people of the western world for no greater sin than being bold or ugly, and are then met with derision and accused of shallowness themselves when they come to Thailand to find a bride.

[MKAsok]

You aren't really believing that are you ... re "1)"?

Let's talk about that Thai cultural context you mention. Where do intergenerational non-married financial arrangements between people having sex with each other fit in to the Thai cultural context you mention?

jd - I'm not going to repeat myself a third time. If it's not your belief or experience that there isn't a greater emphasis on financial support in a 'normal' relationship here compared to in the west, then our experience is different. There's no point debating this further, since we're not going to agree.

My original point was made in response not so much to the OP (perhaps this is where the confusion has arisen) but to the remark 'However, for these young students, male or female, if a sexual relationship were to occur naturally and freely, there'd be no need for money (apparently the obvious requires stating here).' The point I was making was that it's naive to believe in a Thai cultural context that many relationships develop 'naturally and freely' completely independently of any kind of financial considerations (I'm not referring to a purely sexual relationship - I made the assumption Sylvie meant a sexual realtionship that develops within an overall relationship - perhaps she didn't).

As far as your euphemism 'intergenerational non-married financial arrangements between people having sex with each other' is concerned, I've made it clear (twice now) that I agree with you. See:

1) The only real question here (as usual) is whether the OP considers himself to be in a relationship with a girl who actually has any real feelings for him. If it's not the case, then yes, he may as well be paying a prostitute and should be fully prepared to reap the possible whirlwind of the long-term consequences of a manipulative and exploitative relationship (on both sides).

2) Does the OP honestly believe the girl has genuine feelings for him and that this is a relationship that would have developed irrespective of her need to finance her education? If not, this is a business relationship (such as that between a client and a prostitute/quasi-prostitute/long term 'girlfriend' who you pay for, whatever) and should be treated as such. Such relationships have been know to have negative long-term issues.

...so I really don't know why you feel the need to persue me in this rabidly pedantic manner...

[jfchandler]

About the issue of parental knowledge mentioned above, that's been my experience also...

For the students I've known of, either directly or indirectly, who have been engaged in this type of thing, (and again, I've never sponsored or supported anyone myself) typically, they're living alone or with roommates here in BKK, whereas the parents and families have their home somewhere outside BKK. Hence, it gives the young women quite a bit of freedom without having to worry too much about parental knowledge or disapproval...if any were to be forthcoming.

[sylviex]

My original point was made in response not so much to the OP (perhaps this is where the confusion has arisen) but to the remark 'However, for these young students, male or female, if a sexual relationship were to occur naturally and freely, there'd be no need for money (apparently the obvious requires stating here).' The point I was making was that it's naive to believe in a Thai cultural context that many relationships develop 'naturally and freely' completely independently of any kind of financial considerations (I'm not referring to a purely sexual relationship - I made the assumption Sylvie meant a sexual realtionship that develops within an overall relationship - perhaps she didn't).

Most University students here begin their "freshie" (1st) year as really quite innocent young people (perhaps, either by nature or by dint of the families they come from, they tend to be less wordly than others; but still, in this respect they probably are close to being representive of most Thai kids of their age). The first year involves many adaptations -- living away from the family, living with others in a dormitory, perhaps a change from village to city, being "broken in" ("hazed") by senior students and much, much more.

At the same time, these students are entering the transition phase of school student to "probationary" adult. It's not unusual to see the kind of behaviour we'd expect from new high school (secondary) students in our countries of origin: secret crushes on other students, violent giggles or even blushes at mention of the sexual world, clumsy interaction with people they are attracted to ... behaviour that persists intermittently for some years; sometimes forever .

Then comes the behaviour we may be familiar with in the following year -- formerly demure blushing young woman now appears in tight short skirt, heels and lipstick. The young men undergo a similar transformation. They are now experimenting wildly with image and behaviour & developing relationships, tentatively, outrageously, sometimes painfully, sometimes euphorically, with eachother -- naturally and freely.

Do you remember that phase in your life ? It's no different for these young people. What's going on psychologically and physiologically/hormonally and socially overshadows almost everything else in their lives. Though caste hierarchies can never be ignored in Thailand, the many kinds of relationships occurring amongst these young people are rarely about money, at all (though sadly, some may look elsewhere for that).

I get the feeling that now, for middle/upper class Thai women, this is a point in their lives where a little licence may be allowed, (though never acknowledged) : to explore, have fun, have a gik, before the "suitable marriage".

It's quite a special and important time in life; no different in that respect to anywhere else.

An especially vulnerable one, too.

Why not just find someone who is financially independent, so this question never arises ?

You need to ask yourself why you don't do that.

Edited October 19, 2008 by sylviex

[bonobo]

First, I want to thank all who have posted. I have read with interest your opinions, and I have taken many of them to heart.

I would also like to clear up some things. I am positive the woman in question is not a prostitute, and for many reasons, I don't think she has ever been one (and no, this has nothing to do with being "skaggy," as one poster wrote.) BUt there are various physiological and behavioral reactions which, unless someone is a great actress and has great physical control, which makes that a little hard to fake. So is it possible she is in the sex industry? Sure, but I really don't think so.

She is also much older than the normal student. She has worked for a number of years at a factory (coincidently owned by a friend of my business partner). She really did not like that life and decided to go back to school to finish the degree she started and quit while younger.

She has not asked for any money, although she did point out that if she had a phone card, she could call me instead of waiting for me to call her.

And I do think she has some real degree of affection for me. I am not saying love or anything significant, but some affection, even if that is just enjoying my company. We sure laugh alot together, at least.

Finally, I enjoy her company. And while we have been intimate, that aspect has not been amazingly great.

But to get to the heart of the matter, after reading the posts here, and after talking to my partner (a Thai who is also my best friend), this is what I have decided to do.

I have gotten her a phone card, but only 1,000 baht. And that is it until if and when she asks for more. If she asks at some time for help, I will pay for one semester and get her a decent job at another friend's restaurant not too far from her university. And at that time, I will change the relationship. Intimacy is not a major factor now, so I will cut that off and try to move to a casual friendship. After she graduates, if things might develop again, then so be it. But I am not holding my breath.

Based on some of the posts here who brought things in a different light, I don't want anyone to feel beholden to me for any type of financial consideration.

I never had to work for my education. Aside from my scholarships, I attended a military academy in the US for my undergraduate, then let the miltiary and the GI bill pay for my masters and doctorate, and my living expenses for my doctorate were covered by my ex who was a physician. So I never had to take an outside job, and I can appreciate that. If I can help her with one semester and by getting her a job, even if we no longer have the same kind of relationship, well, that is Ok with me.

[sassienie]

Those sad guys that wish to rent a wife/girlfriend and become involved in a relationship on the basis of paying for it, are idiots, plain and simple.

Maybe they have no choice. Many of 'those sad guys' are forced into that situation after being rejected again and again by the shallow people of the western world for no greater sin than being bold or ugly, and are then met with derision and accused of shallowness themselves when they come to Thailand to find a bride.

WRONG: everyone has choices. The harsh reality is that it is extraordinarily rare for a reasonably attractive young girl to genuinely fall in love with a guy who is almost old enough to be her grandfather. Both on the physical side and the huge differences between life experiences. There is no way that these couples could ever be compatible socially and have the same ambitions.

As us guys get older we become less attractive to younger girls in appearance and also in terms of common interests. That leaves us with only one thing to offer them, our money.

Over the years many Thais have learned that there is a source to be had that can fast track the fulfilment of their ambitions, yes, the sad old lonely Farang. Once they have achieved their goals the Farang than becomes surplus to requirements. We have all seen what tragic consequences may occur once this happens.

Economically Thailand is well ahead of some of its poorer neighbours in Southeast Asia, which means they are not so desperate as they were in the past. There are plenty of opportunities here for them to move on and do not need to be totally dependant on any one person or project. In other words, Thailand is no longer the land of golden opportunity with flesh markets to fulfil the desires of old has beens that have a bit of cash to throw about.

Older guys seeking young wives would be better off putting their resources into the Philippines or Cambodia, where economically options for earning a living are less and these girls may be more inclined to be loyal and appreciative to someone who can offer them financial security and stability.

Edited October 19, 2008 by sassienie

[sylviex]

Sassienie at least has no scales on his eyes.

It's late, but I'd like to ask him if he'd feel happy to have a wife who is "loyal and appreciative to someone who can offer them financial security and stability" ?

[Mapguy]

I have hesitated about posting this for advice because I know it will draw a lot of flak, and a similarly themed post recently got closed. But I am very inexperienced in this kind of situation and want to know others' experiences.

I don't really deal with the commercial side of male-female interaction. I have taken customers out to experience the night-life, but it is not my personal thing.

I also know, and not just from the recently closed thread, that some men assist students with tuition and such in return for a relationship. I don't know if that is exactly quid-pro-quo or merely a happy man helping out his g/f (or is "g/f" even the right terminology?)

I have helped out a few girls I have known with one-time financial difficulties, but nothing on a regular or recurring basis.

OK, this is my situation: I recently met a woman on a dating website. We met, hit it off, and have gone out several times. She is a older than the typical student, but has gone back to finish the degree she started some time ago. She is fun, happy, stunningly gorgeous, and a real pleasure with whom to spend time. She makes me laugh.

She is also quite poor. She freely admits that she is considering working in a pub. She claims that is only to be a waitress. Unless she is an outstanding actress, she really does not have that much experience in intimacy, so I don't think she as delved into the sex-worker trade.

She has not asked for any money, but she has dropped a few hints that any help would be helpful.

Financially, I would not mind spending some money on tuition. (I am still paying for my ex-wife's medical school, and that is quite a bit more.) The money is no big deal. But I have read so much on tv about the commercial side of relationships that I am wary. Even after so many years here, I don't want to fall into that old-farang-falling-for-pretty-girl-who-hates-him-but-wants-the-money stereotype.

I can easily walk away now with few regrets. I have no real emotional attachment now. But as I wrote, she makes me laugh, and I enjoy her company.

So I am asking for others' experiences or observations. Is it possible to have a rewarding experience with someone when part of that has a regular financial aspect? If possible, is it likely?

I am way out of my league here with very little personal observations. And while I am sure there will be a number of flipant responses, I hope I can also receive some useful inputs.

Many interesting and thoughtful responses on this thread.

Marriage is a contract. Has been for eons. Love? Another dimension. Both are important. I am not so sure things aren't similar worldwide.

[sylviex]

I'm claiming that financial support as an expression of love in Thai culture is far more prevalent and accepted than is generally the case in western cultures.

Within the family, in Thai culture, as in most Asian cultures (and many other cultures), financial support is not exactly seen as "an expression of love" * but rather an unquestioned expectation.

In "Western" cultures, we often don't know the salary of our parents or siblings or children. We can make a guess from the type of work they do, but numbers are rarely discussed. At the same time, in my experience, we can turn to family members if in need of help.

"Western" parents tend to bring their children up to be able to survive alone (hence the encouragement to work while studying, even if the parents could afford study fees). "Eastern" parents (and those of comparable cultures) still, generally, teach their children to find strength in the family. The family is undoubtedly the mainstay of Asian society and business. Financial support is not so much an expression of love as an obligation born of pragmatism. The extended family pools resources, consolidates strengths and supports its own.

OK, there might be a way to convince yourself that love is expressed by money in Thai culture. And that you have love which demands its expression in money ...

_________

* Ask a Thai or Chinese person if they have ever told their parents that they love them, or if their parents have ever said the same to them.

Now, please try to describe the look you received back .

[sassienie]

Sassienie at least has no scales on his eyes.

It's late, but I'd like to ask him if he'd feel happy to have a wife who is "loyal and appreciative to someone who can offer them financial security and stability" ?

Sorry, but you just don’t get it.

NO, I would not feel happy to have a wife that had to be paid to be loyal and appreciative and would never be dumb enough to get involved in these <deleted> or bust relationships just in the hope of getting a regular bit of totty.

This may have been possible during the not so distant past, but there has been substantial economic improvements in Thailand over the last few years, and this system is now hardly applicable in Thailand. Those that desire this sort of thing may have a better chance of finding it elsewhere.

[473geo]

A friend of mine asked his Thai wife if she loved him...

'yes darling I love you too much' came the reply

Is this because you see I very very good looking handsum man...he enquired playfully

'I love you too much because you take care me and children very good'...was her response

[GuestHouse]

We must be very careful not to extrapolate relationships formed with Thais who are in the business of selling their attentions outwards to the wider Thai society.

We must also be careful not to be misguided by the argument that 'It is the norm in Thai society' - Seldom is the behavior so referenced 'The Norm' more often the argument being made is one of convenience - An interpretation of Thai society in terms that allows the widest possible freedom for the interpreter to follow their own predelictions.

[JimsKnight]

Trying to impose your concept of what are cultural norms in Thailand to a relationship between a farang and a Thai of significantly differing ages and financial backgrounds is just as questionable as anything else in this thread.

The Thai families I know just would not accept that sex for money was acceptable in any way.

I'm assuming you misunderstood me jd. I'm not in any way claiming Thai families 'accept that sex for money (is) acceptable in any way.' I'm claiming that financial support as an expression of love in Thai culture is far more prevalent and accepted than is generally the case in western cultures. Thus the assertion that 'there'd be no need for money' is somewhat misleading. Yes, there would be no absolute need for money, but if the partner was in a position to provide support it would be (generally speaking) fully expected and given willingly.

mk

Most of the time the families don't know what the girl is doing anyway and she is not going to tell them. Hi-so girls don't do this because they don't have money needs.

Exactly, some ladies I know have openly told me that their parents absolutely forbid farang boy / thai girl relationships. But it still goes on, it just means they are discrete and nobody is any wiser.

[MKAsok]

OK, there might be a way to convince yourself that love is expressed by money in Thai culture. And that you have love which demands its expression in money ...

Nice speech sylvie. I'm not sure why you think I'm trying 'to convince myself' that love is expressed entirely by money in Thai culture. That's a facile and disingenuous misrepresentation of what I said. This isn't about me and I don't know what sort of snide implications you're trying to make with that statement. I'm neither defending this aspect of Thai culture, nor promoting it. If you would deny that support, in whatever form it may take, financial or otherwise is not a cultural imperative in a relationship involving most Thais, or Thais and foreigners, then you know even less about relationships in this country than I already think you do. You might feel that the excessive significance of money in a relationship here is a vulgar pollutant to our western notions of what we perceive as 'love.' I might even entirely agree with you. Like it or not, most Thais simply don't seperate love and money in any way to the same extent westerners generally do. Here, an expression of support (yes, this includes simply handing over money) is an expression of comittment and by implication an expression of love.

Edit: added the word 'in'

Edited October 19, 2008 by MKAsok

[Ruperts]

Those sad guys that wish to rent a wife/girlfriend and become involved in a relationship on the basis of paying for it, are idiots, plain and simple.

Maybe they have no choice. Many of 'those sad guys' are forced into that situation after being rejected again and again by the shallow people of the western world for no greater sin than being bold or ugly, and are then met with derision and accused of shallowness themselves when they come to Thailand to find a bride.

WRONG: everyone has choices. The harsh reality is that it is extraordinarily rare for a reasonably attractive young girl to genuinely fall in love with a guy who is almost old enough to be her grandfather. Both on the physical side and the huge differences between life experiences. There is no way that these couples could ever be compatible socially and have the same ambitions.

The harsh reality is that for some western men the search for a wife in the west has been futile and they themselves have considered that a quasi relationship with a young and pretty Thai girl is worth the risk over the prospect of living out their days in miserable solitute. In return the girl gets some financial stability.

I don't think anyone is in any doubt that 'love', whatever that is, does not really play a part in such relationships. But the truth of the matter is both parties get something out of it. Him the affection of a pretty girl. Her the money. It's not perfect, but neither is the world. And for you to criticise those people displays an immature idealism that suggests a lack of experience of the real world.

[sylviex]

Nice speech sylvie. I'm not sure why you think I'm trying 'to convince myself' that love is expressed entirely by money in Thai culture. That's a facile and disingenuous misrepresentation of what I said. This isn't about me and I don't know what sort of snide implications you're trying to make with that statement. I'm neither defending this aspect of Thai culture, nor promoting it. If you would deny that support, in whatever form it may take, financial or otherwise is not a cultural imperative in a relationship involving most Thais, or Thais and foreigners, then you know even less about relationships in this country than I already think you do. You might feel that the excessive significance of money in a relationship here is a vulgar pollutant to our western notions of what we perceive as 'love.' I might even entirely agree with you. Like it or not, most Thais simply don't seperate love and money in any way to the same extent westerners generally do. Here, an expression of support (yes, this includes simply handing over money) is an expression of comittment and by implication an expression of love

Hmmm ...

Where did I say love was expressed entirely by money in Asian culture ?

You might feel that the excessive significance of money in a relationship here is a vulgar pollutant to our western notions of what we perceive as 'love.' I might even entirely agree with you.

It is vulgar when a foreigner is involved, and -- like it or not -- an interesting graph could be drawn showing age and undesirability on the X- axis and amount expended on the Y where foreigners are involved.

Money within an Asian family is one matter ... from an "outsider', it's another. Never delude yourself about that.

End of story is: very, very few non-Asians become a genuine part of their partners' families.

I don't think I need to spell it out more.

[MKAsok]

Hmmm ...

Where did I say love was expressed entirely by money in Asian culture ?

You didn't. You said that I was trying 'to convince myself' that it was. You're just not listening are you? A common symptom of moral outrage. I'm talking about Thai cultural issues regarding support and money in relationships. I'm not talking specifically about the issue of sex-tourism. Anyway, feel free to bang on about it ad-nauseam as I'm sure you will. And good luck with your last lot of comments which are frankly ridiculous and reveal your own agenda of irrational prejudices and willingness to frame anything in terms of stereotypes and idiotic generalisations.

I'm done with this...

mk

[sylviex]

You didn't. You said that I was trying 'to convince myself' that it was.

Oh, really ? Where did I do that ?

It's you who is becoming "outraged" and "irrational" .

It has been an interesting discussion so far.

[a2396]

OK, there might be a way to convince yourself that love is expressed by money in Thai culture. And that you have love which demands its expression in money ...

Nice speech sylvie. I'm not sure why you think I'm trying 'to convince myself' that love is expressed entirely by money in Thai culture. That's a facile and disingenuous misrepresentation of what I said. This isn't about me and I don't know what sort of snide implications you're trying to make with that statement. I'm neither defending this aspect of Thai culture, nor promoting it. If you would deny that support, in whatever form it may take, financial or otherwise is not a cultural imperative in a relationship involving most Thais, or Thais and foreigners, then you know even less about relationships in this country than I already think you do. You might feel that the excessive significance of money in a relationship here is a vulgar pollutant to our western notions of what we perceive as 'love.' I might even entirely agree with you. Like it or not, most Thais simply don't seperate love and money in any way to the same extent westerners generally do. Here, an expression of support (yes, this includes simply handing over money) is an expression of comittment and by implication an expression of love.

Edit: added the word 'in'

Very well stated and exactly true here in MANY, not all cases. I recently had one of my darlings lament to me that she must not be beautiful enough, because she was not attracting the amout of money that she thought appropriate to her self image and compared to what her friends were apparently bringing in. These are NOT bar girls. This stuff seems to be primarily operative when they (the women) are involved with a foreigner. Normally, a Thai guy the same age would not give them any money. However, older Thai men also have to "pay-up". The same aquaintence of mine has a GF, who (she says) is getting 50,000 bht per mo. from a wealthy Thai man. So, go figure.

[sylviex]

OK, there might be a way to convince yourself that love is expressed by money in Thai culture. And that you have love which demands its expression in money ...

Nice speech sylvie. I'm not sure why you think I'm trying 'to convince myself' that love is expressed entirely by money in Thai culture. That's a facile and disingenuous misrepresentation of what I said. This isn't about me and I don't know what sort of snide implications you're trying to make with that statement. I'm neither defending this aspect of Thai culture, nor promoting it. If you would deny that support, in whatever form it may take, financial or otherwise is not a cultural imperative in a relationship involving most Thais, or Thais and foreigners, then you know even less about relationships in this country than I already think you do. You might feel that the excessive significance of money in a relationship here is a vulgar pollutant to our western notions of what we perceive as 'love.' I might even entirely agree with you. Like it or not, most Thais simply don't seperate love and money in any way to the same extent westerners generally do. Here, an expression of support (yes, this includes simply handing over money) is an expression of comittment and by implication an expression of love.

Edit: added the word 'in'

Very well stated and exactly true here in MANY, not all cases. I recently had one of my darlings lament to me that she must not be beautiful enough, because she was not attracting the amout of money that she thought appropriate to her self image and compared to what her friends were apparently bringing in. These are NOT bar girls. This stuff seems to be primarily operative when they (the women) are involved with a foreigner. Normally, a Thai guy the same age would not give them any money. However, older Thai men also have to "pay-up". The same aquaintence of mine has a GF, who (she says) is getting 50,000 bht per mo. from a wealthy Thai man. So, go figure.

I *think* MKAsok wants to argue that the financial demands placed on foreigners are no different to those placed on other Thais.

[MKAsok]

I *think* MKAsok wants to argue that the financial demands placed on foreigners are no different to those placed on other Thais.

You're right sylvie and thanks for adding that. a2396 - I think you misinterpreted what I meant... However your observation may well have something to do with perceived 'status.'

mk

[sylviex]

I *think* MKAsok wants to argue that the financial demands placed on foreigners are no different to those placed on other Thais.

You're right sylvie and thanks for adding that. a2396 - I think you misinterpreted what I meant... However your observation may well have something to do with perceived 'status.'

mk

No problem. There's been quite a bit of misunderstanding on this thread; revealing in itself.

Since you've returned to the grisly scene of this thread , mk, please elaborate on what my "agenda" is.

good luck with your last lot of comments which are frankly ridiculous and reveal your own agenda of irrational prejudices and willingness to frame anything in terms of stereotypes and idiotic generalisations.

I am really quite curious.

As for the OP, we now all wonder if one day he will be telling his grandchildren, "And the rest is history. To think it all hinged on a 1,000 baht phone card !"

Please keep us posted, Bonobo.

If the relationship doesn't work out, there may still be a movie in it . (You have said you're not very attached to this woman so I think you won't mind me being a bit flippant).

Edited October 20, 2008 by sylviex

[samuibeachcomber]

well this is one long thread,and possibly all has been said.For the OP the bottom line is i think,if you are many years older than your girlfriend then money has to be a part of the arrangement(just as it is in the west)Older man/younger woman is not new and has been going on since the world began.Yes it is great to be with a much younger woman and the quid pro quo is financial support for her.The tricky bit is how much and when.This will depend on how much you can afford to give or how how much you want to give.As the OP said he is happy to give money for her education.Give a little at a time and see what happens.If g/f ends up demanding more and more then you will know its not going to work out,cos from her perspective it would be just money she wants.But maybe over time it will work out ok and you will have a good relationship.I think many younger women quite like being with older men.........more financially secure and emotionally secure too,many young girls crave this security especially if it was lacking in their own family when they were young.And yes you have to get something too from this relationship,whether its just a close friendship,or great sex,or a loving relationship,its part of the quid pro quo too.Good luck and if you dont succeed at first,try try again.

[MKAsok]

Since you've returned to the grisly scene of this thread , mk, please elaborate on what my "agenda" is.

Don't get me wrong sylvie. I think your views on the desirability of 'purity' of feelings in a relationship are commendable, but idealistic and naive, particularly in a Thai context. You yourself have mentioned the 'pragmatic' nature of Asian families. I prefer to see this in terms of both Greng Jai and Naam Jai in a Thai context. Anyway, one thing I'm sure we can agree on is that Thais, although they might well possess the ability intellectually to recognise 'pure feelings of love' as separate from any financial considerations, do not separate the two as distinct entities. Support, in whatever form including money is inextricably linked with love. (Note to anyone else reading this - this has nothing to do with issues of prostitution. Please don't use my argument as a means of legitimising prostitution via cultural 'back doors')

As far as your 'agenda' is concerned, I believe comments like this:

It is vulgar when a foreigner is involved, and -- like it or not -- an interesting graph could be drawn showing age and undesirability on the X- axis and amount expended on the Y where foreigners are involved.

Money within an Asian family is one matter ... from an "outsider', it's another. Never delude yourself about that.

End of story is: very, very few non-Asians become a genuine part of their partners' families.

I don't think I need to spell it out more.

demonstrate not only your own irrational prejudices but also a clearly emotive rather than a logical view of an issue. Yes, these assertions may well be true in some cases, but they are little more than crass generalisations which, to me, have the whiff of someone desperate to defend a particular agenda (yours being your obvious dislike of 'sex-tourism' and all its related adjuncts). I'm not in any way attempting to defend such practices - personally I've never been involved in them - but having said that I certainly have no 'moral' objections whatsoever to prostitution), but to perceive an issue in such absolute terms, as the above comments and most of your arguments have clearly displayed, shows a remarkable lack of clarity and understanding of the degrees of subtlety and complexity of human relationships and suggests that you simply have a particular axe to grind irrespective of any evidence to the contrary.

I've always been a firm believer in the following maxim: "Moral outrage, as we are used to it today, is nothing more than acute self-indulgence." You might like to think about that one.

mk

[sylviex]

Since you've returned to the grisly scene of this thread , mk, please elaborate on what my "agenda" is.

Don't get me wrong sylvie. I think your views on the desirability of 'purity' of feelings in a relationship are commendable, but idealistic and naive, particularly in a Thai context. You yourself have mentioned the 'pragmatic' nature of Asian families. I prefer to see this in terms of both Greng Jai and Naam Jai in a Thai context. Anyway, one thing I'm sure we can agree on is that Thais, although they might well possess the ability intellectually to recognise 'pure feelings of love' as separate from any financial considerations, do not separate the two as distinct entities. Support, in whatever form including money is inextricably linked with love. (Note to anyone else reading this - this has nothing to do with issues of prostitution. Please don't use my argument as a means of legitimising prostitution via cultural 'back doors')

As far as your 'agenda' is concerned, I believe comments like this:

It is vulgar when a foreigner is involved, and -- like it or not -- an interesting graph could be drawn showing age and undesirability on the X- axis and amount expended on the Y where foreigners are involved.

Money within an Asian family is one matter ... from an "outsider', it's another. Never delude yourself about that.

End of story is: very, very few non-Asians become a genuine part of their partners' families.

I don't think I need to spell it out more.

demonstrate not only your own irrational prejudices but also a clearly emotive rather than a logical view of an issue. Yes, these assertions may well be true in some cases, but they are little more than crass generalisations which, to me, have the whiff of someone desperate to defend a particular agenda (yours being your obvious dislike of 'sex-tourism' and all its related adjuncts). I'm not in any way attempting to defend such practices - personally I've never been involved in them - but having said that I certainly have no 'moral' objections whatsoever to prostitution), but to perceive an issue in such absolute terms, as the above comments and most of your arguments have clearly displayed, shows a remarkable lack of clarity and understanding of the degrees of subtlety and complexity of human relationships and suggests that you simply have a particular axe to grind irrespective of any evidence to the contrary.

I've always been a firm believer in the following maxim: "Moral outrage, as we are used to it today, is nothing more than acute self-indulgence." You might like to think about that one.

mk

Thanks for your reply, mk.

Strangely -- or perhaps not so strangely -- I think we agree in many ways.

Trust me, I am not naive though I do retain some idealism (it's simply a personal characteristic; some of us have to be ), most especially when it relates to vulnerable young people, which is really why I write on this thread. A twenty year old Thai is very different to a twenty year old in most expats' countries of origin. A twenty five year old Thai is more comparable in certain ways, but still entirely different in others.

Thais, although they might well possess the ability intellectually to recognise 'pure feelings of love' as separate from any financial considerations, do not separate the two as distinct entities.

Thais, although they might well possess the ability intellectually to recognise 'pure feelings of love' as separate from any financial considerations, do not separate the two as distinct entities.

In fact, some would go even further to say that the two are, in fact, completely inseparable in many Asian cultures ... i.e. even intellectually, it's inconceivable. (I am not sure -- perhaps). Certainly, young people here are as able to entertain romantic notions of love as young people all over the world (old ones, too, but that is a large but also very interesting digression). I do think this time is a rather wonderful and important phase of development, and yes, I don't much like to think of anyone in that stage having to submit to the ardour of some completely unappealing "partner" just for some (needed) cash. I doubt you would, either.

"Morals" is not a word I am very comfortable with, not being -- though it may surprise you -- a person who likes to subscribe to any particular ideology or school of thought. You are correct to say that I find p**********n (forum rules) abhorrent. I have asked myself often why people want to drag "morals" into that scene. The defenders seem to have many ready-made answers, such as that Thailand is free of Christian/Muslim/Anything guilt. This type of claim is, frankly, ludicrous. What I say about "all that" comes from feelings of empathy (or sympathy, I guess, more like; and even possibly some guilt that I was never asked to do what I could not do witht the values I was brought up with. There but for the grace of God ...) I somehow don't believe that any amount of detachment or inculturation can make a young woman (can't speak for young men, but suspect it is similar) not be damaged by ... all that. There's research on the matter, if you care to look into it, too. My feelings on the subject are, clearly, connected with those about the "renting" of university students.

Are they not even allowed a few years to dream and forge ideals (yes) and personal goals before becoming family furniture ?

I suspect what you are most reacting to is my equation of the OP's situation to (that p*********** word). I do regard more longstanding relationships as somewhat different. However, in such a new relationship, the dangling of a 1,000 baht phone card-carrot suggests many parrallels to p*********** and it gets tiring to read of the attitude of some foreigners.

...

When I see some (well, many) of the foreign men out on the prowl here, my heart truly goes out to them. I am sure Shakespeare would have some pertinent lines here. Most of those I see in Chiang Mai are not sex tourists, I think; just lonely people who somehow don't quite fit in at home or got unlucky or ... .

But I also feel bad for the young women and men bringing some light to these mens' eyes at vast expense to their own being. (I am starting to sound like a New Ager or something ! It's not easy to express my thoughts and feelings about all this).

I am not "outraged"; just very sad sometimes to see what I see here.

[MKAsok]

Thanks for your reply, mk.

Strangely -- or perhaps not so strangely -- I think we agree in many ways.

I too suspect as much. An intelligent and thoughtful response, so thanks for that. I would certainly agree with this:

In fact, some would go even further to say that the two are, in fact, completely inseparable in many Asian cultures ... i.e. even intellectually, it's inconceivable.

Anyway, an interesting debate. Ethically ambiguous ones are always the best...

mk

[samuibeachcomber]

to MSAsok and sylviex,i think you two think too much,life is a lot easier to fathom out than you both make out,but am glad you enjoyed your repartee.

[MKAsok]

to MSAsok and sylviex,i think you two think too much,life is a lot easier to fathom out than you both make out,but am glad you enjoyed your repartee.

Thanks for your input. Feel free to return to reading posts about 'what's the best way to wipe my arse?' or 'should I marry a midget?' or 'Help! My Thai wife is planning to kill me!' or whatever...