Where Is Gold Going In This Market

[mania]

I cannot imagine anyone will leave anything of their remaining balance in the

hands of the thieves after the banks reopen on Tuesday. Surely they know this?

Mania,

surely you know that no bank on this planet can survive even if only

a small percentage of creditors withdraw their cash deposits.

Yes which is why I asked " Surely they know this"

Which I am sure they do & expect now to happen,

or be attempted because as we know, no bank has the

deposits on hand

So that leaves the "Corralito Risk" you pointed out.

But it is no surprise Cyprus was flailing & my guess is the whales

left quite awhile ago anyway. Leaving the little & middle men to once again take

the shaft.

[Naam]

my guess is the whales left quite awhile ago anyway

it's not easy to move big cash nowadays within a short time.

[mccw]

Seriously; it is strait out thievery.

no it is not, it is the done thing. if you invest your money, whether in cash, shares, bonds or whatever, you have to consider potential losses. that also applies to the money under your mattress of which inflation eats up a part and it applies to the physical gold which people bought at higher prices than it trades today.

welcome to reality!

on a side note... tomorrow monday is a legal holiday in Cyprus. i wonder how much cash will be withdrawn on tuesday or transferred to banks abroad. i also wonder how depositors in Italy, Spain and Portugal will react. somehow i have the feeling that the EU has opened a Pandora box.

For most normal people / non wealthy "investor" population, bank deposits are not "investments" with such risks, the banks are simply storing people's money for them. In many countries this money is guaranteed up to a certain amount by the government! But instead of honouring these principles the governments have conspired to rob the people.

[churchill]

Seriously; it is strait out thievery.

no it is not, it is the done thing. if you invest your money, whether in cash, shares, bonds or whatever, you have to consider potential losses. that also applies to the money under your mattress of which inflation eats up a part and it applies to the physical gold which people bought at higher prices than it trades today.

welcome to reality!

on a side note... tomorrow monday is a legal holiday in Cyprus. i wonder how much cash will be withdrawn on tuesday or transferred to banks abroad. i also wonder how depositors in Italy, Spain and Portugal will react. somehow i have the feeling that the EU has opened a Pandora box.

For most normal people / non wealthy "investor" population, bank deposits are not "investments" with such risks, the banks are simply storing people's money for them. In many countries this money is guaranteed up to a certain amount by the government! But instead of honouring these principles the governments have conspired to rob the people.

I understood ''Cyprus will impose a levy of 6.75 percent on deposits of less than 100,000 euros -- the ceiling for European Union account insurance -- and 9.9 percent above that.'

So funds guaranteed as safe will be taxed at 6.75 .... This seems like the most stupid decision ...Hitting the small guy again on money the government said was safe ....Surely this will knock on to withdrawals in other EU countries and whatever politicians say they will not now be believed ....

Still Cyprus has to pass this so I understand ........A lot of very nervous MP's I expect ....

and Thailand guarantees accounts up to 1M ?

Edited March 17, 2013 by churchill

[Naam]

a

European Union account insurance

does not exist. all guarantees are country specific and variable and not all deposits in banks located in the EU are guaranteed.

[Naam]

Seriously; it is strait out thievery.

no it is not, it is the done thing. if you invest your money, whether in cash, shares, bonds or whatever, you have to consider potential losses. that also applies to the money under your mattress of which inflation eats up a part and it applies to the physical gold which people bought at higher prices than it trades today.

welcome to reality!

on a side note... tomorrow monday is a legal holiday in Cyprus. i wonder how much cash will be withdrawn on tuesday or transferred to banks abroad. i also wonder how depositors in Italy, Spain and Portugal will react. somehow i have the feeling that the EU has opened a Pandora box.

For most normal people / non wealthy "investor" population, bank deposits are not "investments" with such risks, the banks are simply storing people's money for them. In many countries this money is guaranteed up to a certain amount by the government! But instead of honouring these principles the governments have conspired to rob the people.

that is your view. but who cares for your or my view?

[churchill]

of course what it says and what it means are not the same

Central Bank of Cyprus

Deposit protection scheme

http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=8158〈=en

[Naam]

of course what it says and what it means are not the same

Central Bank of Cyprus

Deposit protection scheme

http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=8158〈=en

Cyprus is levying a tax. there is no protection scheme against taxes.

[dave111223]

of course what it says and what it means are not the same

Central Bank of Cyprus

Deposit protection scheme

http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=8158〈=en

Cyprus is levying a tax. there is no protection scheme against taxes.

Doesn't this then essentially set a precedent that all deposit guarantees are meaningless.

For example if there is a run on bank XYZ, instead of the government having to pay the depositors they just set a "tax" of X% on the bank deposits, and thus the bank is now able to pay the remaining deposit amounts which have been reduced by X%.

If I had money in any EU banks I'd be pulling it out ASAP.

IMHO it is absolutely retarded to levy a tax on bank deposits.

- Person A has $100K in a bank

- Person B has $100K under the pillion

- Person C has $100K in Gold

Surely any reasonable tax they should all be liable for the same amount of tax, but to say that only person A has to pay sends a clear and shocking message "Don't keep your money in a bank"

More edits...

They should have at just said that everyone is liable for a 10% haircut (on all their holdings) and then only really enforced the bank deposits. At least then people would be angry in general, and not specifically at bank deposits; which is surely going to send all Cypriot banks straight down the toilet.

Edited March 17, 2013 by dave111223

[Naam]

of course what it says and what it means are not the same

Central Bank of Cyprus

Deposit protection scheme

http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=8158〈=en

Cyprus is levying a tax. there is no protection scheme against taxes.

Doesn't this then essentially set a precedent that all deposit guarantees are meaningless.

For example if there is a run on bank XYZ, instead of the government having to pay the depositors they just set a "tax" of X% on the bank deposits, and thus the bank is now able to pay the remaining deposit amounts which have been reduced by X%.

If I had money in any EU banks I'd be pulling it out ASAP.

deposit guarantees are indeed meaningless should a consolidated run on a number of banks take place. in the case of Cyprus there is a good chance that all the island's bank are threatened by a run.

[farang000999]

When I heard this news it reminded me historically of Franz Ferdinand, something that does not seem like that big of a deal but could have huge repercussions. How is this anything but totally insane? These people running the EU and these bailouts and this austerity are totally insane.

[mania]

Cyprus is levying a tax. there is no protection scheme against taxes.

Doesn't this then essentially set a precedent that all deposit guarantees are meaningless.

If I had money in any EU banks I'd be pulling it out ASAP.

I agree with both of you.

Of course it is a tax & a very unfair one.

Basically those who were not banked were not taxed.

Also like dave said I think many will now trust themselves only to hold

their savings in what ever form they choose. For better or worse

[Naam]

When I heard this news it reminded me historically of Franz Ferdinand, something that does not seem like that big of a deal but could have huge repercussions. How is this anything but totally insane? These people running the EU and these bailouts and this austerity are totally insane.

the alternative is that the IMF and the EU do not make the necessary € billions available to prop up the banks in Cyprus. that would mean bankruptcies and depositors would lose much more than 6.75 respectively 9.9%.

would you consider that "sane"?

[Naam]

one of my dogs (the female who reads Thaivisa on her iPad) just asked me why i waste my time in TV's section "economy, banking and the like". my answer was "it's pure fun!"

[dave111223]

When I heard this news it reminded me historically of Franz Ferdinand, something that does not seem like that big of a deal but could have huge repercussions. How is this anything but totally insane? These people running the EU and these bailouts and this austerity are totally insane.

the alternative is that the IMF and the EU do not make the necessary € billions available to prop up the banks in Cyprus. that would mean bankruptcies and depositors would lose much more than 6.75 respectively 9.9%.

would you consider that "sane"?

So you look at only 2 insane options, and say this one is less insane "Let's do it"

[Naam]

When I heard this news it reminded me historically of Franz Ferdinand, something that does not seem like that big of a deal but could have huge repercussions. How is this anything but totally insane? These people running the EU and these bailouts and this austerity are totally insane.

the alternative is that the IMF and the EU do not make the necessary € billions available to prop up the banks in Cyprus. that would mean bankruptcies and depositors would lose much more than 6.75 respectively 9.9%.

would you consider that "sane"?

So you look at only 2 insane options, and say this one is less insane "Let's do it"

what other options do you have in mind?

[dave111223]

what other options do you have in mind?

The IMF/EU could have set any requirements/conditions on the bailout that they wanted; choosing to steal 10% for bank deposits is an insane condition. General tax increases, general public spending reductions would have been the sane requirements.

[churchill]

'ANNOUNCEMENT BY CENTRAL BANK OF CYPRUS

ON THE RESULTS OF THE 2011 EU-WIDE STRESS TESTING EXERCISE'

passed with flying colours

http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=11847〈=en

[mccw]

of course what it says and what it means are not the same

Central Bank of Cyprus

Deposit protection scheme

http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=8158〈=en

Cyprus is levying a tax. there is no protection scheme against taxes.

Doesn't this then essentially set a precedent that all deposit guarantees are meaningless.

For example if there is a run on bank XYZ, instead of the government having to pay the depositors they just set a "tax" of X% on the bank deposits, and thus the bank is now able to pay the remaining deposit amounts which have been reduced by X%.

If I had money in any EU banks I'd be pulling it out ASAP.

deposit guarantees are indeed meaningless should a consolidated run on a number of banks take place. in the case of Cyprus there is a good chance that all the island's bank are threatened by a run.

Back when "nations" were actual nations with sovereignty over thier own money supply, the deposits garranteed can be printed by the governments, deposited in to a new government bank and the failed banks been allowed to collapse.

The currency may devalue by half as a result but this is the nature of things; the devaluation would then allow growth to begin again. What we have now is a monstrosity of theft and debt servitude.

[farang000999]

When I heard this news it reminded me historically of Franz Ferdinand, something that does not seem like that big of a deal but could have huge repercussions. How is this anything but totally insane? These people running the EU and these bailouts and this austerity are totally insane.

the alternative is that the IMF and the EU do not make the necessary € billions available to prop up the banks in Cyprus. that would mean bankruptcies and depositors would lose much more than 6.75 respectively 9.9%.

would you consider that "sane"?

What if people start pulling their money from banks in Spain and Italy? I am sure that is everyone's initial reaction? And why wouldn't they? Once your neighbors start lining up to pull their money you would be a fool not to follow.

These types of broad arbitrary strokes of targeting a single entity (savings) to tax really reeks of fascism and does not appear to be in anyone's interest, potentially explosive imho.

Edited March 17, 2013 by farang000999

[churchill]

As part of the deal

'Privatization and the sale of part of the Cypriot gold stock.'

although I have seen no other details

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/nieuws/2013/03/16/goedkeuring-steunprogramma-voor-cyprus.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Edited March 17, 2013 by churchill

[midas]

When I heard this news it reminded me historically of Franz Ferdinand, something that does not seem like that big of a deal but could have huge repercussions. How is this anything but totally insane? These people running the EU and these bailouts and this austerity are totally insane.

the alternative is that the IMF and the EU do not make the necessary € billions available to prop up the banks in Cyprus. that would mean bankruptcies and depositors would lose much more than 6.75 respectively 9.9%.

would you consider that "sane"?

What if people start pulling their money from banks in Spain and Italy? I am sure that is everyone's initial reaction? And why wouldn't they? Once your neighbors start lining up to pull their money you would be a fool not to follow.

These types of broad arbitrary strokes of targeting a single entity (savings) to tax really reeks of fascism and does not appear to be in anyone's interest, potentially explosive imho.

They are forecasting big withdrawals and after this little gem who can blame anyone in the EU for taking their money out of these these criminal cabals. You have to be totally daft to do otherwise?

“German Finance Minister actually entered the Eurogroup meeting on Friday proposing a 40 percent haircut on Cypriot bank accounts “

oh, why not take the whole lot while you're at it? Do you want the shirt off people's backs as well?

http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_16/03/2013_488169

Edited March 17, 2013 by midas

[Naam]

what other options do you have in mind?

The IMF/EU could have set any requirements/conditions on the bailout that they wanted; choosing to steal 10% for bank deposits is an insane condition. General tax increases, general public spending reductions would have been the sane requirements.

these "sane" requirements are of course on the table too and much more to come.

[Naam]

As part of the deal

'Privatization and the sale of part of the Cypriot gold stock.'

although I have seen no other details

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/nieuws/2013/03/16/goedkeuring-steunprogramma-voor-cyprus.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

"- privatiseringen en de verkoop van een deel van de Cypriotische goudvoorraad."

selling a part of the gold valued at $1.2billion is peanuts.

[Naam]

When I heard this news it reminded me historically of Franz Ferdinand, something that does not seem like that big of a deal but could have huge repercussions. How is this anything but totally insane? These people running the EU and these bailouts and this austerity are totally insane.

the alternative is that the IMF and the EU do not make the necessary € billions available to prop up the banks in Cyprus. that would mean bankruptcies and depositors would lose much more than 6.75 respectively 9.9%.

would you consider that "sane"?

What if people start pulling their money from banks in Spain and Italy? I am sure that is everyone's initial reaction? And why wouldn't they? Once your neighbors start lining up to pull their money you would be a fool not to follow.

These types of broad arbitrary strokes of targeting a single entity (savings) to tax really reeks of fascism and does not appear to be in anyone's interest, potentially explosive imho.

They are forecasting big withdrawals and after this little gem who can blame anyone in the EU for taking their money out of these these criminal cabals. You have to be totally daft to do otherwise?

“German Finance Minister actually entered the Eurogroup meeting on Friday proposing a 40 percent haircut on Cypriot bank accounts “

oh, why not take the whole lot while you're at it? Do you want the shirt off people's backs as well?

http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_16/03/2013_488169

if a bank goes belly-up its creditors might lose 100% of their cash. the only safe assets are those which are not listed in the banks balance sheet, e.g. bonds and shares of debtors which are held in custodial clearing institutions such as Euroclear and Clearstream (formerly Cedel).

the "Cyprus incidence" seems to 'unsurface' quite a lack of economic knowledge of resident discussion participants. no offence meant!

[Naam]

When I heard this news it reminded me historically of Franz Ferdinand, something that does not seem like that big of a deal but could have huge repercussions. How is this anything but totally insane? These people running the EU and these bailouts and this austerity are totally insane.

the alternative is that the IMF and the EU do not make the necessary € billions available to prop up the banks in Cyprus. that would mean bankruptcies and depositors would lose much more than 6.75 respectively 9.9%.

would you consider that "sane"?

What if people start pulling their money from banks in Spain and Italy? I am sure that is everyone's initial reaction? And why wouldn't they? Once your neighbors start lining up to pull their money you would be a fool not to follow.

These types of broad arbitrary strokes of targeting a single entity (savings) to tax really reeks of fascism and does not appear to be in anyone's interest, potentially explosive imho.

What if people start pulling their money from banks in Spain and Italy?

i already mentioned that possibility.

[midas]

the alternative is that the IMF and the EU do not make the necessary € billions available to prop up the banks in Cyprus. that would mean bankruptcies and depositors would lose much more than 6.75 respectively 9.9%.

would you consider that "sane"?

What if people start pulling their money from banks in Spain and Italy? I am sure that is everyone's initial reaction? And why wouldn't they? Once your neighbors start lining up to pull their money you would be a fool not to follow.

These types of broad arbitrary strokes of targeting a single entity (savings) to tax really reeks of fascism and does not appear to be in anyone's interest, potentially explosive imho.

They are forecasting big withdrawals and after this little gem who can blame anyone in the EU for taking their money out of these these criminal cabals. You have to be totally daft to do otherwise?

“German Finance Minister actually entered the Eurogroup meeting on Friday proposing a 40 percent haircut on Cypriot bank accounts “

oh, why not take the whole lot while you're at it? Do you want the shirt off people's backs as well?

http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_16/03/2013_488169

if a bank goes belly-up its creditors might lose 100% of their cash. the only safe assets are those which are not listed in the banks balance sheet, e.g. bonds and shares of debtors which are held in custodial clearing institutions such as Euroclear and Clearstream (formerly Cedel).

the "Cyprus incidence" seems to 'unsurface' quite a lack of economic knowledge of resident discussion participants. no offence meant!

But surely for most people when they deposit money in a bank they never believe ( naïvely or otherwise ) in the possibility of losing anywhere near 100% because they believe somewhere in the background there is some kind of depositors insurance scheme that will compensate their losses ?

The fact that these banksters in collusion with the politicians even considered levying as high as 40% tax indicates in principle how far they were thinking of going

and for which they would not have been insured against.

Edited March 17, 2013 by midas

[Naam]

You have missed the point entirely. The fact that these banksters in
collusion with the politicians even considered levying a 40% tax
indicates in principle how far they were thinking of going. Mabe they
think 10% would avoid riots ( or bulldozers ) but i dont think it will
avoid a wholesale bank run in many countries. Very bleak outlook

i haven't missed any point and i don't care what Schäuble suggested because

it did not materialise and his suggestions were not quoted in context with the

other points of his suggestions. it is therefore a waste of time to discuss it.

my point was and is that any percentage of "tax" lower than 100% is

better than a total loss.

in the case of Iceland you were raving, ranting and applauding umpteen

times that creditors were cheated 100% out of their money. why you

pity now Cypriot and other foreign (mainly Greek and Russian) creditors

is inconsistent and beyond my grasp.

and should there be a run on European banks tomorrow resulting in a

"healthy" crisis then this is exactly what i am looking forward too. the

odds are indeed in favour of a run.

[midas]

Supposedly this move ( 6-9.9%)was made to "avoid unsettling investors in larger countries and sparking a new round of market contagion."

How can such an action do anything but cause contagion?

What is someone in Greece, Spain, or Italy supposed to think?

Think the parlay of EU contagion-begging actions for a second.

1.Spanish banks will not be able to evict homeowners,( EU Court Strikes Down Spain’s Eviction Law.)who in turn will be give reason to default. Losses will soar at Spanish banks and they are insolvent already.

2.The "Offer You Cannot Refuse" action by the EU is sure to arouse suspicion of a forced bailout in Spain.

3.Cyprus actions will heighten fears of bank takeovers, capital controls, and theft of deposits via confiscation.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.nl/2013/03/contagion-begging-actions-expect-bank.html

Edited March 17, 2013 by midas

[yoshiwara]

Supposedly this move ( 6-9.9%)was made to "avoid unsettling investors in larger countries and sparking a new round of market contagion."

How can such an action do anything but cause contagion?

What is someone in Greece, Spain, or Italy supposed to think?

Think the parlay of EU contagion-begging actions for a second.

1.Spanish banks will not be able to evict homeowners,( EU Court Strikes Down Spain’s Eviction Law.)who in turn will be give reason to default. Losses will soar at Spanish banks and they are insolvent already.

2.The "Offer You Cannot Refuse" action by the EU is sure to arouse suspicion of a forced bailout in Spain.

3.Cyprus actions will heighten fears of bank takeovers, capital controls, and theft of deposits via confiscation.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.nl/2013/03/contagion-begging-actions-expect-bank.html

...and meanwhile with all your wetting of knickers, the price of gold still goes nowhere.