20.5 Rai For 210k Baht - A Steal?

[farmerkevin]

my girl's dad has debt and the bank threatens to take the house. he has quite some land though. problem is that he waited way too long to make a decision. his other children can't come up with the money to help and selling the smaller one of his two lands at a good price is extremely difficult within 10 days. he was looking for 500-700K, but that seems impossible. even finding a buyer at 300-400K in such short notice isn't easy. so... he says if we buy it for 210K he will let it go, so it stays in the family.

location: 2km out of a small village @ roied-isan. currently half is eucalyptus and half is rice. apart from 1 rai, the rice didn't work this season because apparently there wasn't enough rain (?). i walked the land and i don't see the problem. part of it is bordered by a river, so one would think you just need to do some water management. some years the river comes very high and the land is flooded. but that's because there seems to be some man-made steep 1m 'road' down to the river, which can easily be closed. you could even use the river to your advantage and make a 1 rai pond next to the road to collect the water when the river comes high and then close off the inflow when you have enough (?). the soil is said to be excellent. I see a lot of weeds, so it's not dead for sure

looks like a steal?

any other input is welcome too... for example i've been told you can't make much money from eucalyptus (?)... any idea what it would cost to cut the 10 rai eucalyptus ? i guess you could cut it and put rubber in between and wait 7 years for your rubber... but what if you want to make it farmland for rice or anything like that?

[RakJungTorlae]

my girl's dad has debt and the bank threatens to take the house. he has quite some land though. problem is that he waited way too long to make a decision. his other children can't come up with the money to help and selling the smaller one of his two lands at a good price is extremely difficult within 10 days. he was looking for 500-700K, but that seems impossible. even finding a buyer at 300-400K in such short notice isn't easy. so... he says if we buy it for 210K he will let it go, so it stays in the family.

location: 2km out of a small village @ roied-isan. currently half is eucalyptus and half is rice. apart from 1 rai, the rice didn't work this season because apparently there wasn't enough rain (?). i walked the land and i don't see the problem. part of it is bordered by a river, so one would think you just need to do some water management. some years the river comes very high and the land is flooded. but that's because there seems to be some man-made steep 1m 'road' down to the river, which can easily be closed. you could even use the river to your advantage and make a 1 rai pond next to the road to collect the water when the river comes high and then close off the inflow when you have enough (?). the soil is said to be excellent. I see a lot of weeds, so it's not dead for sure

looks like a steal?

any other input is welcome too... for example i've been told you can't make much money from eucalyptus (?)... any idea what it would cost to cut the 10 rai eucalyptus ? i guess you could cut it and put rubber in between and wait 7 years for your rubber... but what if you want to make it farmland for rice or anything like that?

yes a steal

[Carib]

Does the land have a chanote, or is this a sale based on other "papers" or even without those???

[Lickey]

Welcome to the farming forum Kevin, Paperwork is not really an issue if the land is sold/rented within the family,

Have you seen a letter from her dads bank about reposesing the house if debt is not repaid?

And a paddy that is no good even though it is beside a river?

The land [even though you bought it} will always belong to her dad,

A few things to chew over before you make a decesion,

Rgds, Lickey.

[GungaDin]

The 210KB will be a gift... def not a steal.

[farmerjo]

[qWuote name=farmerkevin' date='2008-10-20 01:39:16' post='2283788]

my girl's dad has debt and the bank threatens to take the house. he has quite some land though. problem is that he waited way too long to make a decision. his other children can't come up with the money to help and selling the smaller one of his two lands at a good price is extremely difficult within 10 days. he was looking for 500-700K, but that seems impossible. even finding a buyer at 300-400K in such short notice isn't easy. so... he says if we buy it for 210K he will let it go, so it stays in the family.

location: 2km out of a small village @ roied-isan. currently half is eucalyptus and half is rice. apart from 1 rai, the rice didn't work this season because apparently there wasn't enough rain (?). i walked the land and i don't see the problem. part of it is bordered by a river, so one would think you just need to do some water management. some years the river comes very high and the land is flooded. but that's because there seems to be some man-made steep 1m 'road' down to the river, which can easily be closed. you could even use the river to your advantage and make a 1 rai pond next to the road to collect the water when the river comes high and then close off the inflow when you have enough (?). the soil is said to be excellent. I see a lot of weeds, so it's not dead for sure

looks like a steal?

any other input is welcome too... for example i've been told you can't make much money from eucalyptus (?)... any idea what it would cost to cut the 10 rai eucalyptus ? i guess you could cut it and put rubber in between and wait 7 years for your rubber... but what if you want to make it farmland for rice or anything like that?

Welcome farmerkevin,

Take the advice,check the letter from the bank.

I see more and more farangs buying land from their g/f, wifes family.I think its a scam to sell to your own family as any help you need,you will be required to pay them for working afterwards.

Having said that the price is right,before you buy check what neighbouring land is for sale as you may need to expand later.

Good luck

Farmerjo

[soundman]

Welcome to the forum.

Hypothetical scenario.....

You "give" the FIL 210k Baht.

FIL gives your wife the 20 Rai of land. (no property tax has to be paid.)

You "sign" a thirty year lease agreement with your wife.

The land "costs" you 300B per year.

IF you are both alive at the end of thirty years, and have offspring, I'm sure that is where the land will end up.

and whoever told you Euca doesn't make good money is pulling your leg (unless it is a long way to the nearest pulp mill).

Euca done correctly should make you between 3,500 - 5,500 per Rai per year with a lot less headache than rice for example.

AS to 10kB per Rai.

If the land is marginal farming land on SPG title, I wouldn't pay 10kB per Rai for it. Last parcel of SPG land we bought was 25 Rai for 90k and we'll have to wait another 5 - 7 years for the title up-grade so we can transfer it into our names.

If it is good farming land on chanote title - a steal.

If there is a good road and utilities running accross the front - sale of the century!

Soundman.

[philstone]

The 210KB will be a gift... def not a steal.

It will be a steal her dad is stealing from you.

[IsaanAussie]

Welcome to the forum.

Hypothetical scenario.....

You "give" the FIL 210k Baht.

FIL gives your wife the 20 Rai of land. (no property tax has to be paid.)

You "sign" a thirty year lease agreement with your wife.

The land "costs" you 300B per year.

IF you are both alive at the end of thirty years, and have offspring, I'm sure that is where the land will end up.

and whoever told you Euca doesn't make good money is pulling your leg (unless it is a long way to the nearest pulp mill).

Euca done correctly should make you between 3,500 - 5,500 per Rai per year with a lot less headache than rice for example.

AS to 10kB per Rai.

If the land is marginal farming land on SPG title, I wouldn't pay 10kB per Rai for it. Last parcel of SPG land we bought was 25 Rai for 90k and we'll have to wait another 5 - 7 years for the title up-grade so we can transfer it into our names.

If it is good farming land on chanote title - a steal.

If there is a good road and utilities running accross the front - sale of the century!

Soundman.

"Sounds" Like very good advice to me.

[Mosha]

I would say that road access is a must. If you have to cross someone elses land for access, it could be a problem later. My sister in law's husband wants to sell some land and the access is across someone elses plot. The person who controls the access is trying to make him sell to her for almost half what he wants. She says if he sells to someone else they can't have access. He needs the money because he wants a divorce so he can go live with his mia noi. He thinks she loves him. She just wants the dosh.

[farmerkevin]

Chanote: yes. Seen all papers from the banks about the debt: yes. Seen the guy of one of the banks knocking on the door & neighbours gossiping about the situation: yes. An official letter about repossessing the house if the debt is not paid: no, not yet – but the bank says they will do if at least the interest is not repaid by the end of the month. The land would be officially transferred to my girl (as it cannot be on my name) at the same time the money changes hands. My girl had a car seat shop in the past, so she has some business experience.

Road to the land is al little bumpy and on some places somewhat sandy, but good and wide enough for a tractor or small truck. We went there with the motorbike. It doesn’t cross any other lands.

Lickey, the river is well below the land – only in the rainy season I guess there’s a chance that the water gets as high as the land… so if you want to use the water you will have to pump it up or wait for it to flood (and/or capture it in a pond) and close off with sand bags or something like that when you have enough. Her dad has no money whatsoever to do any investment for things like that.

Soundman, we’re not married (yet)… but are together almost 2 years. I am young (30), but have the luxury to do my work from basically anywhere in the world – as long as I have my laptop and an internet connection. Right now, for example, I am in Thailand since the end of April and will go back to my home country for a couple of months by the end of December.

Interesting comment about the eucalyptus, soundman. They planted it 13 years ago and her parents tell me they only get about 30 000 from it every 2 or 3 years. So I guess they are not taking good care of it and most possibly just don’t know how to do (and have no money to hire people to do it right and no power to do it themselves)... I’ve heard the same stories about rubber from the neighbour. I haven’t read about eucalyptus yet… do you think after 13 years you can still start to do it right or is it too late?

Soundman: about the 30y lease… very interesting. 300baht per year for 20.5 rai – that’s a normal price? I would like something like that, as it gives me some kind of backing… I am not 100% comfortable that I can’t put the land on my name.

[Gary A]

That is a VERY good price. The land has road access, a chanote and will be put in your girlfriends name. Since the land can't be in your name it now comes down to trust. A thirty year lease? Why? If your relationship goes bad and ends, what good is a lease?

[manjara]

Hi,

My experience with similar sort of land, in the North rather than North-east, is that the price varies between about 10k/rai for wild/wooded land and 25k/rai for good paddy fields. I recently paid 340k for 19 rai of mixed rice and tree land (8 and 11 rai) up there, though I paid over the odds for it. 210k is a good deal if more than 25% of your land is rice paddy (and assuming there's not some other problem)

Beware about some of the land up there. There are a lot of people who say they have a lot of land but in reality it has been 'granted' to them for use by the King (maybe that's the SPG described by the other poster?). This land is not transferable and can only be used to produce food. Someone tried to sell us a tract of this land with teak trees on it, but it turns out you can never harvest and sell them.

I also heard of an Austrian guy who built a house with pool etc on this type of land and looks like he is going to have to tear it down (his wife said her father owned the land!)

If this type of land has been used for generations then they can sometimes apply for and get title, but nothing is guaranteed.

If your land has a proper Chanote certificate it would be unusual for that area/type of land, most land transfer in my wife's village is just recorded by the village head man. If it really does have a chanote then it would be a steal - but it doesn't gel, imho, with her father not having money to buy a pump!

In the end, for 3 grand, the ability to help your Gf's father might be worth it, if you trust your GF enough to put the land in her name. With me, it's my wife, and she now has about 70 rai in her name! ( and the house and condo, 51% of my company, the car, gold etc! trust is good! )

[Smithson]

If your relationship goes bad and ends, what good is a lease?

It's a contract that has some protection. How you would enforce that is another question. If you were to put it in her name, it's really just a gift for parents. It's important to have ideas to make them feel the land is yours, if you buy it and then have them work there, harvest the crops etc. it will still seem like their land.

[mgreek]

Thank you guys for all your answers...

It seems you can always learn something from this forum...

[farmerjo]

Just pay the interest!

[PoorSucker]

Get a baby and put in the babies name.

[Maizefarmer]

Just pay the interest!

Buy it and register a 30year lease in your name - now you have lots of time to reflect on the options: if its really worth what you are told then you have plenty plenty time to realise a return.

Ensure 2 options are in the lease: to renew for another 30 years and/or take full titleship if the laws if change to allow foreign ownership - long before 60 years are up globilisation will have seen Thai property laws over hauled and foreigners allowed to own land - of that I am pretty certain.

These matters are never striaghtforward when "family" is invovled, and it never ceases to amaze me the number of times ex-pats just happen to be around when foreclosure on debt is imminent - but on balance, against what you have said, i think you have as good a future chance as any ex-pat could reasonably expect to realise at least the capital return

[tommyj4]

Get a baby and put in the babies name.

Dont make any difference....The Mother can still sell/transfer names on the land anytime befor the child is 18....

[slapout]

Sounds like the price quoted for the land is about right for a single crop/year acrage. The bank probly kn4ew what it was worth.

[wichianburi1]

That is a VERY good price. The land has road access, a chanote and will be put in your girlfriends name. Since the land can't be in your name it now comes down to trust. A thirty year lease? Why? If your relationship goes bad and ends, what good is a lease?

I believe a thirty year lease agreement with the name of farmerkevin in the deeds will provide him with more security. Should the relationship turn bad he could always rent it out and recover at least some money.

[wichianburi1]

Get a baby and put in the babies name.

Dont make any difference....The Mother can still sell/transfer names on the land anytime befor the child is 18....

Wouldn't the mother require the written concensus from the father before the property could be sold? Could you elaborate on this issue more? Thanks

[Tim207]

Get a baby and put in the babies name.

Dont make any difference....The Mother can still sell/transfer names on the land anytime befor the child is 18....

Wouldn't the mother require the written concensus from the father before the property could be sold? Could you elaborate on this issue more? Thanks

I am under the impression that you must get court authorization to dispose of property that is in the name of a minor.

[joeycano]

I'm not a Thai lawyer but what may happen is mom would sell property without a court's permission or following any legal requirements. Sometimes, in America, especially among the poorer classes, property would change hand by dozens of people before someone would come forward to legalize the title. They would just execute a contract of some sort assigning their rights to another. Often, prior owners would disappear to complicate things further. Even if you were here, you would have no say as you have no rights in the property. Our firm typically rejected these cases due to the complexity and the lack of money by person trying to fix title.

When it comes to buying land the only safe bet is putting it under your own name. Too bad Thailand does not allow foreigners to purchase land. Just understand that you would be a gamble if you choose to buy land and put it under someone's name it.

[somo]

I would initially offer to pay off the interest so the land is not threatened with repossesion. That payment should be in return for use of the land at a rental rate of around 400 or 500 Baht/rai/year. That way the land stays in the family and you don't need to hand over a big lump af cash and you get the chance to so a bit of farming. You can always buy it later if things work out.

[joeycano]

I have to agree with Somo. Pay the interest and agree to lease the land from them not purchase it. A simple lease without an ownership interest. I strongly disagree with the suggestion of a long term lease option as well. It happens all the time that property is sold without notice and permission of the tenants.

Let say that you buy property and put it under your girlfriend's or wife's name. The relationship sours and you must part your way. You would obviously have difference in opinion when it comes to what will become with the property. It's unlikely that she will agree to leave the property with her family who has owned the property. Both her family and she would likely feel that they have an interest in the property. We would like to think that everyone will negotiate a amicable settlement but there is no guarantee.

Your defense would be that you have a long term lease and have a right to stay. They would argue that the property is legally their and they do not have to leave. Since they are the owners they have the right to do whatever they want with the property even sell it if they wished.

I recall my American law professor telling me the following on the first day of Property Law: "Contract are meant to be broken" as long as you are willing to pay for "damages". If your lease is broken you would have to assert damages. Well what would your damages be??? If you are leasing your land for 300 Baht as suggested above, arguably it would be 300 Baht per year X 30 years = 9,000 Baht. You would obviously argue that you had a farm and would have made money. However, this money is speculative at best as there is no guarantee as a farmer that you land would produce anything. In fact, it's possible that your farm could lose money depending on a lot of factors: floods, drought, pests, disease, theft, etc.

If you had a child, putting it in their name would help. However, typically a guardian like the mother could execute documents on their minor child's behalf. So risk is also involved. Hire a Thai lawyer to find this out.

I suggest you hire a real Thai lawyer. Make sure it is an independent lawyer from a place away from where you live. Ask him if it is possible to form a Thai corporation. Then ask him if the Thai corporation can purchase the property. It is possible that only you could own the property and not involve the wife, girlfriend and family. I have heard that this is a method that foreigners use to purchase property in Thailand.

Again, I am not a Thai lawyer. Property law may be much different here in Thailand. However, the roots of property law are similar around the world as Property Law has well be settled generations ago.

I suggest not buying the land. Hire a Thai layer first to truly know your options or ramifications of your anticipated actions.

Edited October 27, 2008 by joeycano

[NotYetArahan]

Two things:

First, why bother about these small amounts. Just buy the stuff if the price seems right. Exposure is low

Second, I don't know what 10 rai of 13 year old Eucaliptus when cut in one go will sell for. Then father in law is out of problems as well I guess.

regards

[Smithson]

Paying the interest seems like a good option. Although it might not be the one your wife's family is aiming for. I would offer to pay the interest because that's all you can afford. The lump sum payment isn't an option because you just don't have the cash.