Thaksin Guilty In Land Case, Gets 2-year Imprisonment

[TAWP]

Don't tell me Sondhi L is recommending intelligent people to dominate Thailand's future, that's what Pol Pot would have told us too.

Incorrect, Pol Pot made sure intellectuals where killed of. Hence why even wearing glasses was a hazard during their rule (and subsequent guerrilla warfare).

[animatic]

Who's Somchai Wongsawat?

4. not from voters elected Prime Minister of Thailand!

A quick clarification. Prime Ministers in Thailand are never directly elected by voters to be Prime Minister. They are first elected as Members of Parliament (Somchai was elected as a member of the PPP's party list candidates). Then, the ruling coalition is formed (via a great deal of back door politics). Following this, the new government puts forth their name for PM, as does members of the opposition parties and Parliament then votes for their choice. As normal, the ruling coalition's choice wins.

The fact is, Thailand's political system is different from what most of us know in our countries.

Certainly the transition from Blair to Brown was done differently.

At least over there you have an idea of WHO the PM will be when you vote.

1st they KNEW Samak would get in, the machine told them this was good,

would solve their problems. But instead of a new vote by the people when Samak fell,

they get a back room deal for Somchai and a legislative PPP puyai vote

on Thaksin's choice of PM. Not a hint of actual peoples choice involved.

This is what PAD got wilder, this was a sham and it continues.

[Samuian]

His Letter to Matichon

Some lovely Taxcynistics:

"....The best. I can comprehend is that

. In that case I was quite quite guilty cause I was quite a successful politician, I got elected twice by the majority of thai people as Prime Minister.

If I were to be guilty of anything, that would be what I have shown to the Thai people, especially those underprivileged rural thais that they can, and have the right to, demand their government to provide effective policy and programs to improve their lives......"

It's getting really funny, this guy believes there are enough people out there who will feel sorry for him!

I was convicted simply because I was a politician!

If I were to be guilty of anything, that would be what I have shown to the Thai people, especially those underprivileged rural thais that they can, and have the right to, demand their government to provide effective policy and programs to improve their lives

the glorious Samaritan, isn't this one of the duties of a Prime Minister anyway, what does it makes so special?

Not to question the genuine success of his populist "effective policies and programs" ?

Ah'well cry, baby cry...

He is going to top this with:

relief for my wife as I pulled her into enough troubles because of my politcal ambition to bring greatness and well-being to my country and my people, amused and bitter with the illogical of the judgment, and worry for those politicians in Thailand that they could go to jail simply because their unhappy spouses may sought to manipulate the law.

This is going to be really funny...

For those of you who may not be too familiar with Thailand, state offices and enterprises in Thailand are doing so many businesses from telecommunication, banking, power generator or even owning gas stations.

Just a little business incorporated into the state, never mind, but Politicians enriching THEMSELVES from these STATE-enterprises are stealing money out of the PEOPLES pockets!

I do not know should I laugh or cry to see the direction Thailand is moving forward: a democratically elected leader was put out of job because he cooked on a TV show but those who unlawfully trespassed and occupying the government house got protection from the Court.

Se, the "honest mistakes" there in?

Neither was he "democratically elected" nor was he convicted because of simply cooking!

it's getting better:

Whatever happen to me is a political driven actions collaborated by various group of privileged elites who believe in anything but democracy. I am a threat to them because I represent the principle of liberal democracy which promote hope and pride of the poor of my country.

Now this is extra topping on the pizza! Great, such a nice guy, so mistaken!

I believe that at the end Thai people will win over this struggle. And the end of their nightmare is not far.

Thus spoke the grand savior master of the nation!

Yes, Takky we believe you!

Quotes from:

Edited October 24, 2008 by Samuian

[hammered]

For the record, in parliamentary systems where parliament is the supreme elected body (eg UK, Thailand) and the PM then chosen by parliament and the PM then himself chooses the cabinet, there can legitimately be a change of government or two as long as parliament votes it through within the term of government. This is very different from presidential systems where the head of the government is elected directly although even in the US there are a whole load of rules on who comes next without an election if the president dies, stands down or gets impeached etc.

The bottom line is that governments and governmemtal leaders can be changed without elections although the circumstances and rules relating to it may vary. Thailand is however a parliamentary system similar to the UK in nature and Samak to Somchai and if needed to anyone else is fine as long as parliament agrees. Of course as in many of these systems the PM can call an election to rejig parliament and this strategy, or at least the threat of it is used in many parliamentary systems when there may be pressure on a PM to resign.

Anyway that is the technical stuff over and done with. However, right now Thailand is not in normal times and so anything could happen, which is where it differs from more established parliamentary systems. In fact it is extremely unlikley imho that a change of PM, an election, a coup, a huge street battle, Thaksin having a fatal heart attack, a low intensity civil war or the Dems suddenly taking over by some stealth manouver would actually solve anything in Thailand right now. There is also absolutley no desire among th players for a meaningful national unity government so even if that gets tried or forced, it wont help. We are not going to suddenly see a return to the fantasy of Thailand that existed before. This is going to be seared into memories and collective feelings for quite some time, and magnified by the inequalities that Thai society is filled with and the economic tsunami that is goign to hit rudderless Thailand full square on. By the end of all this there will probably be few institutions (political, media, bureacratic, police, military, academic) that are not damaged drastically and not trusted by significant proportions of the people, and the regional divisions that have deep down existed in Thailand for a long time will be even bigger and in the open.

All imho and not very positive I know.

[steveromagnino]

I don't think that LH & NOBLE re related to Thaksin. If they do, they could fix the deal to make sure LH (or NOBLE) wins. On completion of the purchase from the government, on sold to Thaksin at cost (or a small profit). I am sure that Thaksin will figure that out.

Everyone seems to think that FIDF sold too cheaply. That is not true. FIDF sold the property at the market price at that time. FIDF & BOT have defended that (else they would have gone to jail too). No one knew that the property price in that area was about to appreciate that much.

In an unrelated case. Sonthi accuse the Thai Railway to lease out the Central Ladprow land too cheaply. That was not true as well. At the time when the land was leased out, no one knew that that piece of waste land so far from the city was about to become one of North Bangkok hottest property.

It is FACT that Anant the Chairman on L&H is a close personal friend and ardent supporter of TRT prior to 2001.

Phasuk Pongphaichit, the lecturer, gave a lecture on money politics in a seminar held by Economic Politics Center of Chulalongkorn late 2005, including a quote:

'Since Thaksin took office as prime minister in 2001, his government issued several economic policies, which directly benefited listed firms with close connections to the prime minister and Cabinet members. The policies also benefited and protected businesses of the politicians and their affiliations. Such policies included tax privileges, deduction of concession fees, blocking new business rivals to enter market, and delaying policies which could affect businesses of the Thaksin network.

Businesses, which are taking part in the operation to eat up the country in all possible means, include businesses belonging to Shinawatra family and relatives, Mahakijsiri family, Jungrungreangkit family, Maleenon family, Chearavanon family, and Asavabhokin family. All of the families are on the top list of richest families in Thailand.....

....The government launched real estate development projects to benefit daughter companies of Shin Corp. For example, the Bangkok Boulevard project of SC Assets Plc on Ram Intra-Ring Road-Navamin roads benefited from the a Cabinet resolution on July 4 2003 to cut a new road from Ratchadapisek to Ram Intra at the kilometre marker No 4.5 The new road immediately increased the value of the plot of SC Assets, turning it from a plot with no access to a golden plot....

....It is known that Pojaman Shinawatra, the wife of Thaksin, likes to buy up land. Moreover, she managed to buy land at cheap prices. For example, she bought a 33-rai plot opposite from the Korean embassy near Thailand's Cultural Centre from the Thai Assets Management Corporation at the price 50 cheaper than its market price. This caused the state to lose Bt715 million from what it should have received for the land price. The plot was sold at the price Bt700 million lower than the price offered in the first round of bidding and the government did not received land transfer fee worth Bt15 million. She also owns Alpine Golf Course worth Bt747million, which Thaksin bought at very low price amid allegations that he cheated a temple out of the plot.'

Anant Asavabhokin, president of Land and House Plc, is a financier of the Thai Rak Thai. He is a close friend of Boonklee Pungsiri of Shin Corp since the two studied in the Chulongkorn University's Faculty of Engineering.

He received a license (the only license I think for a new bank at the time) to operate the Land and House Bank, and sat on a committee to supervise power pricing and policy after Shin Corp became interested in investing in electricity businesses by setting nominal firms to invest in such businesses.

I can assume you don't work in property or have had dealings with TRT, otherwise both of you would know how absolutely nonsensical the idea that L&H is not related to TRT sounds.... Anant was part of the inner circle of business people alongside companies CP, Samart, Jasmine, Grammy, Natural Park, ItalThai, Picnic Gas etc etc that helped create many of the business friendly policies of TRT. He has been friends with Thaksin, close personal friends, for like 20 years.

If the price was above market value, how come every single property developer at that time felt that it was undervalued yet did not bit for it? (unlike both of you, I work in this industry and know most of the senior players).

I am fairly sure there was land sold in the same area for at least 50% more for a smaller plot within 3 months of this transaction. If you wish to claim sold over priced; then please provide some evidence; history says it was massively underpriced to everyone else.

We are talking prime grade B land here, and yes, there was some element of logic to buying with the underground on the way etc; like the entire SC Asset base; it was built on the Shinawatra family fortune created by hedging away the dollar debt prior to the currency crash and then buying a ton of distressed assets out of the TAMC, transactions like this one, and cash strapped developers then using government policy to increase their wealth.

The whole point of this case is exactly what you said in a nut shell; yes, they could have easily had L&H buy it, then do a JV development. Shin didn't because they think they are immune to the law - as proven with the incredibly obvious fraud by Khunying Or in falsifying documents - easy to just be fraudalent and not get cuaght but they honestly thought no one would ever look - after all they got rid of almost every check and balance (senate, free press, NGOs, NCCC, police, army) they could.

How to say simply.......The law is very very clear; the transaction cannot take place; not because of the price paid (although that in itself is obviously proof of the dodginess and reason to do the deal) but because it is illegal to do such a deal as would be the case in almost every country in the world - PMs cannot give tenders to their wife.

The same for the change to the airpport route or the highway construction, or even for that matter the deal for advertising in the subway; this is why the country's business people swang away from TRT in 2004-2005 because the TRT guys basically wanted every single deal available and would twist the law to get it; breaking the contract with Triads in the case of the advertising in the subway. The change in public transport routes is a matter of public record raised twice in government censure debates; meaningless since with less than 200 supporters they couldn't censure the PM directly for these quite blatant moves.

How anyone can struggle to understand why ethically you cannot have people in power selling assets of the country to their own wife is beyond me - systems are there to keep honest people honest.

As for SRT it is widely recognised that Central underpaid for that lease with the benefit of hindsight, and SRT were taken to the cleaners; anyone will tell you that. IMHO not so much corruption as being inept; SRT are an inept real estate company with a slight sideline running a few trains. BTW Central aren't particularly affiliated with any political group; King Power are the only major retailer with a clear political 'bent' one way or the other.

Let's face it, Sondhi makes some claims that are often completely around the bend.

[Gonzo the Face]

In reading in its entirety Thaksins letter to the media, if I didn't know better [& maybe I don't] I would swear it was written by a writer for The Nation, and approved by their infallible proof reader.

[Samuian]

.... We are not going to suddenly see a return to the fantasy of Thailand that existed before. This is going to be seared into memories and collective feelings for quite some time, and magnified by the inequalities that Thai society is filled with and the economic tsunami that is goign to hit rudderless Thailand full square on. By the end of all this there will probably be few institutions (political, media, bureacratic, police, military, academic) that are not damaged drastically and not trusted by significant proportions of the people, and the regional divisions that have deep down existed in Thailand for a long time will be even bigger and in the open.

All imho and not very positive I know.

The outlook, looking this way, is indeed grim, but not unavoidably so, even it looks as if many or all at the helm are ready to let the ship sink then leave, TiT!

Still "someone" always got this boat through the white waters!

Remind the Asian-Monetary-Crisis, full on hit!

Who came out when everybody else was licking his wounds...or was counting the loot?

Later he was labeled "The Ditherer" ..... no knight in shining Armour, a teacher, a bureaucrat, nobody highly popular, but he and his team lead Thailand out of the mess.... when most was done who followed up and where are we now after only7 years?

And was at it, when Thailand slithered with full throttle into this crisis?

Looks different looking this way, does it?

Get those who gather day by day in "the war room", in the Shin.Corp Building arrested, the man in London extradited and lock 'em away for as long as law allows, then see...

Edited October 24, 2008 by Samuian

[morejunk]

Cancel his diplomatic red passport and issue an Interpol arrest warrant for him. That would make him fair game for every immigration entry point, airport stop over and police officer in the world. A 5 million baht reward in a secret Swiss account would help.

Get him back and charge him with murders of 2000 drug "suspects". Genocide charges in the International Court of Justice in the Hague, would be nice.

Edited October 24, 2008 by morejunk

[Old Man River]

I don't think that LH & NOBLE re related to Thaksin. If they do, they could fix the deal to make sure LH (or NOBLE) wins. On completion of the purchase from the government, on sold to Thaksin at cost (or a small profit). I am sure that Thaksin will figure that out.

Everyone seems to think that FIDF sold too cheaply. That is not true. FIDF sold the property at the market price at that time. FIDF & BOT have defended that (else they would have gone to jail too). No one knew that the property price in that area was about to appreciate that much.

In an unrelated case. Sonthi accuse the Thai Railway to lease out the Central Ladprow land too cheaply. That was not true as well. At the time when the land was leased out, no one knew that that piece of waste land so far from the city was about to become one of North Bangkok hottest property.

It is FACT that Anant the Chairman on L&H is a close personal friend and ardent supporter of TRT prior to 2001.

Phasuk Pongphaichit, the lecturer, gave a lecture on money politics in a seminar held by Economic Politics Center of Chulalongkorn late 2005, including a quote:

'Since Thaksin took office as prime minister in 2001, his government issued several economic policies, which directly benefited listed firms with close connections to the prime minister and Cabinet members. The policies also benefited and protected businesses of the politicians and their affiliations. Such policies included tax privileges, deduction of concession fees, blocking new business rivals to enter market, and delaying policies which could affect businesses of the Thaksin network.

Businesses, which are taking part in the operation to eat up the country in all possible means, include businesses belonging to Shinawatra family and relatives, Mahakijsiri family, Jungrungreangkit family, Maleenon family, Chearavanon family, and Asavabhokin family. All of the families are on the top list of richest families in Thailand.....

....The government launched real estate development projects to benefit daughter companies of Shin Corp. For example, the Bangkok Boulevard project of SC Assets Plc on Ram Intra-Ring Road-Navamin roads benefited from the a Cabinet resolution on July 4 2003 to cut a new road from Ratchadapisek to Ram Intra at the kilometre marker No 4.5 The new road immediately increased the value of the plot of SC Assets, turning it from a plot with no access to a golden plot....

....It is known that Pojaman Shinawatra, the wife of Thaksin, likes to buy up land. Moreover, she managed to buy land at cheap prices. For example, she bought a 33-rai plot opposite from the Korean embassy near Thailand's Cultural Centre from the Thai Assets Management Corporation at the price 50 cheaper than its market price. This caused the state to lose Bt715 million from what it should have received for the land price. The plot was sold at the price Bt700 million lower than the price offered in the first round of bidding and the government did not received land transfer fee worth Bt15 million. She also owns Alpine Golf Course worth Bt747million, which Thaksin bought at very low price amid allegations that he cheated a temple out of the plot.'

Anant Asavabhokin, president of Land and House Plc, is a financier of the Thai Rak Thai. He is a close friend of Boonklee Pungsiri of Shin Corp since the two studied in the Chulongkorn University's Faculty of Engineering.

He received a license (the only license I think for a new bank at the time) to operate the Land and House Bank, and sat on a committee to supervise power pricing and policy after Shin Corp became interested in investing in electricity businesses by setting nominal firms to invest in such businesses.

I can assume you don't work in property or have had dealings with TRT, otherwise both of you would know how absolutely nonsensical the idea that L&H is not related to TRT sounds.... Anant was part of the inner circle of business people alongside companies CP, Samart, Jasmine, Grammy, Natural Park, ItalThai, Picnic Gas etc etc that helped create many of the business friendly policies of TRT. He has been friends with Thaksin, close personal friends, for like 20 years.

If the price was above market value, how come every single property developer at that time felt that it was undervalued yet did not bit for it? (unlike both of you, I work in this industry and know most of the senior players).

I am fairly sure there was land sold in the same area for at least 50% more for a smaller plot within 3 months of this transaction. If you wish to claim sold over priced; then please provide some evidence; history says it was massively underpriced to everyone else.

We are talking prime grade B land here, and yes, there was some element of logic to buying with the underground on the way etc; like the entire SC Asset base; it was built on the Shinawatra family fortune created by hedging away the dollar debt prior to the currency crash and then buying a ton of distressed assets out of the TAMC, transactions like this one, and cash strapped developers then using government policy to increase their wealth.

The whole point of this case is exactly what you said in a nut shell; yes, they could have easily had L&H buy it, then do a JV development. Shin didn't because they think they are immune to the law - as proven with the incredibly obvious fraud by Khunying Or in falsifying documents - easy to just be fraudalent and not get cuaght but they honestly thought no one would ever look - after all they got rid of almost every check and balance (senate, free press, NGOs, NCCC, police, army) they could.

How to say simply.......The law is very very clear; the transaction cannot take place; not because of the price paid (although that in itself is obviously proof of the dodginess and reason to do the deal) but because it is illegal to do such a deal as would be the case in almost every country in the world - PMs cannot give tenders to their wife.

The same for the change to the airpport route or the highway construction, or even for that matter the deal for advertising in the subway; this is why the country's business people swang away from TRT in 2004-2005 because the TRT guys basically wanted every single deal available and would twist the law to get it; breaking the contract with Triads in the case of the advertising in the subway. The change in public transport routes is a matter of public record raised twice in government censure debates; meaningless since with less than 200 supporters they couldn't censure the PM directly for these quite blatant moves.

How anyone can struggle to understand why ethically you cannot have people in power selling assets of the country to their own wife is beyond me - systems are there to keep honest people honest.

As for SRT it is widely recognised that Central underpaid for that lease with the benefit of hindsight, and SRT were takenMost business done in Thailand is based on contacts, even the company that you work for. to the cleaners; anyone will tell you that. IMHO not so much corruption as being inept; SRT are an inept real estate company with a slight sideline running a few trains. BTW Central aren't particularly affiliated with any political group; King Power are the only major retailer with a clear political 'bent' one way or the other.

Let's face it, Sondhi makes some claims that are often completely around the bend.

I know you are in the industry. However, we are discussing a court case, not how business is done in Thailand. Do you seriously think this is much different from business in the past? Only some of the players at the top were different. The others you mentioned are the same guys that have been in this industry for many, many years. Business as usual, mate.

As this is a court case, any of my comments were based on legal definitions of what is an affiliation and what is not.

Since we are discussing a court case here, I can only base my opinions on what has been publicly reported. You have made the comment: "If the price was above market value, how come every single property developer at that time felt that it was undervalued yet did not bit for it?" You seem to be hinting that the appraisers who came up with the market values at the time of the auction may have falsified their work. I understand the FDIC used world class appraisers. Do you know different?

Collusion on bidding is hard to prove in court unless there is clear cut information. Do you know of any such information?

[Mobi]

From breaking news in today's B. Post:

...On ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra's plan to phone-in a political talk show on Nov 1, Pol Gen Kowit said Mr Thaksin has the right to do so, saying that it is the right of an individual. Again, he is being optimistic, saying that the phone-in of Mr Thaksin would not cause further rifts in the political arena....

Full story

here

[Samuian]

I know you are in the industry. However, we are discussing a court case, not how business is done in Thailand. Do you seriously think this is much different from business in the past? Only some of the players at the top were different. The others you mentioned are the same guys that have been in this industry for many, many years. Business as usual, mate.

I think since Taxin took over office, itwas more so than EVER before!

As this is a court case, any of my comments were based on legal definitions of what is an affiliation and what is not.

Since we are discussing a court case here, I can only base my opinions on what has been publicly reported. You have made the comment: "If the price was above market value, how come every single property developer at that time felt that it was undervalued yet did not bit for it?" A well known fact is that what has been paid was half it's value! You seem to be hinting that the appraisers who came up with the market values at the time of the auction may have falsified their work. I understand the FDIC used world class appraisers. Do you know different?

Collusion on bidding is hard to prove in court unless there is clear cut information. Do you know of any such information?

Well there have been only 3 bidders, right now I am NOT eager to google for more "facts" as that is publicly known on this case anyway, it simply was rigged!

Subconsciously he has expressed what his secret dream was to Incorporate Thailand in HIS Corporation, that why he kept saying "I am going to run this country like it's CEO"!

Doesn't that sound rather pretentious and shouldn't this raise at least some eyebrows, stated in connection with being the head of Government?

Doesn't mak him look clean and not involved, he might have simply fallen to the delusion that once he was appointed, he was the CEO and that thus everything belonged to him or was at least under his supervision, including all assets belonging to the country and its people - here he and his entourage stepped over the fine line, by approximately a mile or two!

"For the good of the country and it's poor people"! How much more sarcastic can this man be?

[animatic]

I don't think that LH & NOBLE re related to Thaksin. If they do, they could fix the deal to make sure LH (or NOBLE) wins. On completion of the purchase from the government, on sold to Thaksin at cost (or a small profit). I am sure that Thaksin will figure that out.

Everyone seems to think that FIDF sold too cheaply. That is not true. FIDF sold the property at the market price at that time. FIDF & BOT have defended that (else they would have gone to jail too). No one knew that the property price in that area was about to appreciate that much........

It is FACT that Anant the Chairman on L&H is a close personal friend and ardent supporter of TRT prior to 2001.......

Phasuk Pongphaichit......quote:

'Since Thaksin took office as prime minister in 2001, his government issued several economic policies, which directly benefited listed firms with close connections to the prime minister and Cabinet members. The policies also benefited and protected businesses of the politicians and their affiliations. Such policies included tax privileges, deduction of concession fees, blocking new business rivals to enter market, and delaying policies which could affect businesses of the Thaksin network...........

Businesses, which are taking part in the operation to eat up the country in all possible means, include.......

All of the families are on the top list of richest families in Thailand.....

....The government launched real estate development projects to benefit daughter companies of Shin Corp. For example, the Bangkok Boulevard project of SC Assets Plc on Ram Intra-Ring Road-Navamin roads benefited from the a Cabinet resolution on July 4 2003 to cut a new road from Ratchadapisek to Ram Intra at the kilometre marker No 4.5 The new road immediately increased the value of the plot of SC Assets, turning it from a plot with no access to a golden plot....

....It is known that Pojaman Shinawatra, the wife of Thaksin, likes to buy up land......

she bought a 33-rai plot opposite from the Korean embassy near Thailand's Cultural Centre from the Thai Assets Management Corporation at the price 50 cheaper than its market price. This caused the state to lose Bt715 million from what it should have received for the land price.

The plot was sold at the price Bt700 million lower than the price offered......

government did not received land transfer fee worth Bt15 million. {soundslike Somchais recent charges}

She also owns Alpine Golf Course worth Bt747million, which Thaksin bought at very low price

amid allegations that he cheated a temple out of the plot.'

....president of Land and House Plc, is a financier of the Thai Rak Thai.

close friend of Boonklee Pungsiri of Shin Corp .....

He received a license (the only license I think for a new bank at the time) to operate the Land and House Bank,

and sat on a committee to supervise power pricing and policy

after Shin Corp became interested in investing in electricity businesses....

I can assume you don't work in property or have had dealings with TRT,

otherwise both of you would know how absolutely nonsensical the idea that L&H is not related to TRT sounds....

Anant was part of the inner circle of business people alongside companies CP, Samart, Jasmine, Grammy, Natural Park, ItalThai, Picnic Gas.... He has been friends with Thaksin, close personal friends, for like 20 years.......

If the price was above market value, how come every single property developer at that time felt that it was undervalued yet did not bit for it? (unlike both of you, I work in this industry and know most of the senior players).....

......please provide some evidence; history says it was massively underpriced to everyone else.

..... built on the Shinawatra family fortune created by hedging away the dollar debt prior to the currency crash.....

{How much insider info allowed THAT top happen..?}

...... then using government policy to increase their wealth.

The whole point of this case is exactly what you said in a nut shell; yes, they could have easily had L&H buy it, then do a JV development. Shin didn't because they think they are immune to the law .......

as proven with the incredibly obvious fraud by Khunying Or in falsifying documents -

easy to just be fraudalent and not get caught....- after all they got rid of almost every check and balance

(senate, free press, NGOs, NCCC, police, army) they could.

How to say simply.......

The law is very very clear; the transaction cannot take place; not because of the price paid (although that in itself is obviously proof of the dodginess and reason to do the deal) but because it is illegal to do such a deal as would be the case in almost every country in the world - PMs cannot give tenders to their wife.

The same for the change to the airpport route or the highway construction, or even for that matter the deal for advertising in the subway; this is why the country's business people swang away from TRT in 2004-2005

because the TRT guys basically wanted every single deal available and would twist the law to get it;........

How anyone can struggle to understand why ethically you cannot have people in power

selling assets of the country to their own wife is beyond me -

systems are there to keep honest people honest.

....

Let's face it, Sondhi makes some claims that are often completely around the bend.

But he keeps the attention where it needs to be, one way or another.

Systems are there to keep crooked people from taking too much advantage also.

Of course it was known the land prices were going up there.

New train line there, economy on the mend after a devastating crash.

No place go BUT UP...

Steve thank you again for some VERY informed content.

I highlighted and commented inside because it was too HUGE.

Apologies in advance..

Edited October 24, 2008 by animatic

[sriracha john]

Edited by marshbags

I suspect that what has set you going however is my slightly facetious description of the typical visa runner.My point was simply that Thaksin has little chance of being accepted by London's elite.For the record neither have I.

Sadly it didn,t achieve it,s " meant to humour objectives " as it was judged in the context of your way of posting.

It is important that respect towards our families is maintained at all times, after all we are the ones debating, plus of course it adds insult to offensiveness when putting it alongside Thaksins scenario his non ethical standards and complete lack of integrity.

It was below the belt to say the least IMHO

marshbags

P.S. Flaming is of course banned on T.Visa and we should respect it accordingly

Whether it's directed at an individual member, a large group of members, or the entire forum... that's something he's struggled with since first arriving on thaivisa, my friend...

This latest piece of personal abuse would be a little more convincing if you didn't have a track record of accusing those with different opinions as flaming.I am sure it is very irritating for you to see a discussion giving fair weight to all sides, but it's probably best to argue your case rather than abuse other members.

Simply pointing out what already exists as a matter of record... and noted by marshbags, amongst numerous other members. If you need examples of that, I can easily provide them.

I welcome discussion by all sides with the caveat that it doesn't involve flaming, which as I already pointed out, you seem to have great difficulty recognizing what that constitutes. If you need examples of that as well, I can, again, easily provide them.

If you, on the other hand, have examples of where I accused those with differing opinions of flaming, and they, in fact were not flaming, I would ask that you provide them.

You've belittled any number of members with derogatory language as well as lambast the forum on the whole on multiple occasions.

[sriracha john]

Lawyer: No contact from Thaksin yet

Kamnuan Chalohpathan, the lawyer of former premier Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin Shinawatra, disclosed today (October 24) that he has not yet been contacted by the former premier following the Supreme Court’s Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions’ verdict.

The court ruled on Tuesday to convict Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin for two years jail term on grounds that he breached article 100 of the National Counter Corruption (NCC) Act by aiding his wife Potjaman winning a bid for a state-owned land on Ratchadaphisek Road in 2003.

Kamnuan said the former premier may contact him today (October 24) to fight against the ruling. If that’s the case, he would take all new evidence to present to the meeting of Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin ‘s legal advisory team to jointly and prudently make final decision to appeal the case to the Supreme Court.

However, he said that it rested with the Supreme Court's decision whether it would admit the appeal.

In addition, Kamnuan said the former prime minister has to appeal the case within 30 days after the court’s verdict.

So, he said that now the case has not been finalized yet.

The Thai government was unable to ask the British government to extradite Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin to Bangkok, he added.

- ThaiNews / 2008-10-24

[younghusband]

Edited by marshbags

I suspect that what has set you going however is my slightly facetious description of the typical visa runner.My point was simply that Thaksin has little chance of being accepted by London's elite.For the record neither have I.

Sadly it didn,t achieve it,s " meant to humour objectives " as it was judged in the context of your way of posting.

It is important that respect towards our families is maintained at all times, after all we are the ones debating, plus of course it adds insult to offensiveness when putting it alongside Thaksins scenario his non ethical standards and complete lack of integrity.

It was below the belt to say the least IMHO

marshbags

P.S. Flaming is of course banned on T.Visa and we should respect it accordingly

Whether it's directed at an individual member, a large group of members, or the entire forum... that's something he's struggled with since first arriving on thaivisa, my friend...

This latest piece of personal abuse would be a little more convincing if you didn't have a track record of accusing those with different opinions as flaming.I am sure it is very irritating for you to see a discussion giving fair weight to all sides, but it's probably best to argue your case rather than abuse other members.

Simply pointing out what already exists as a matter of record... and noted by marshbags, amongst numerous other members. If you need examples of that, I can easily provide them.

I welcome discussion by all sides with the caveat that it doesn't involve flaming, which as I already pointed out, you seem to have great difficulty recognizing what that constitutes. If you need examples of that as well, I can, again, easily provide them.

If you, on the other hand, have examples of where I accused those with differing opinions of flaming, and they, in fact were not flaming, I would ask that you provide them.

You've belittled any number of members with derogatory language as well as lambast the forum on the whole on multiple occasions.

I know you are aggrieved at the wider diversity of views being expressed on this forum.I would suggest, if it lies within your capability, to focus more on constructive and compelling arguments to support your case rather than pointless personal abuse.Even you should be able to recognise the fatuous silliness of accusing someone of "flaming the whole forum".If you can't differentiate mildly satirical comments from derogatory language, that's your problem not mine.

[Moonrakers]

The Thai government was unable to ask the British government to extradite Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin to Bangkok, he added.

Errrmm, why not?

[Thai at Heart]

The Thai government was unable to ask the British government to extradite Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin to Bangkok, he added.

Errrmm, why not?

What a weird statement. Is there not a word for extradition in the Thai language?

[sriracha john]

"mildly satirical comments"

Take the two two prior posts as an example, simply moronic.

I would have thought that it might have occurred to some how stupid and crass this comment is.

[steveromagnino]

I know you are in the industry. However, we are discussing a court case, not how business is done in Thailand. Do you seriously think this is much different from business in the past? Only some of the players at the top were different. The others you mentioned are the same guys that have been in this industry for many, many years. Business as usual, mate.

Since we are discussing a court case here, I can only base my opinions on what has been publicly reported. You have made the comment: "If the price was above market value, how come every single property developer at that time felt that it was undervalued yet did not bit for it?" You seem to be hinting that the appraisers who came up with the market values at the time of the auction may have falsified their work. I understand the FDIC used world class appraisers. Do you know different?

Collusion on bidding is hard to prove in court unless there is clear cut information. Do you know of any such information?

The issue of official valuation and actual market value have little to do with eachother; as you probably know basically every property is officially valued at a significantly lower value than price paid, which is why mortgages are usually set at 75% of the official valuation, which is usually around 60% of the true value - almost every single person who gets a mortgage can report the same experience. Government valuations....meaningless.

They did NOT use worldclass appraisers AFAIK, they used government valuations. Why - do you have some document that suggest that they DID use a worldclass appraiser - and if so - knowing as every property developer does that you can get a favourable or unfavourable appraisal from many worldwide property companies, how can we even rely on anything short of an audited appraisal?

Collusion on bidding is irrelevant between the 3 parties is in any case not relevant, the law states clearly that the PM is not allowed to interfere to sell assets directly to associated parties, i.e. his wife.

He would presumably not be allowed to sell to her even if it was at a market price, a lower than market price or even a higher than market price.

Which makes it even more stupid, although certainly not the most blatant of the TRT corruption deals - that they didn't even try to hide it.

As for collusion, given my own dealings with TRT in areas completely unrelated to this matter, I would say 100% there is no paper record, but 99% confident that at least L&H and Khunying Or spoke to eachother about it and that 100% confident other developers knew who was bidding and 99% confident that the issue of what price they intended to bid at was at least available to both sides (or to Khunying Or) prior to close of auction.

Clever not to have a paper trail. Very stupid to break a very simple law that exists almost everywhere around the world precisely to avoid conflicts of interest.

Do you want to debate the cooking show illegal work - similar situation for Samak.

[old wanderer]

One of the most interesting facets is the Supreme Courts voting......The only mention was the 5/4 vote....However take a look at the total case:

Voting on key points of the historic verdict

9-0 - The 1999 anti-corruption act is effective.

9-0 - Appointment of Assets Examination Committee is constitutional with authority to investigate cases.

9-0 - Financial Institutions Development Fund, the land seller, is a government agency.

6-3 - The prime minister has oversight of FIDF.

5-4 - Thaksin Shinawatra violated the 1999 anti-corruption act.

7-2 - Khunying Pojaman Shinawatra is not guilty and her arrest warrant will be cancelled.

7-2 - The Ratchadaphisek land plot and transaction money will not be confiscated.

9-0 - Thaksin is sentenced to a two-year jail term. Sounds pretty solid too me.

I had mentioned in an earlier post about Pojaman is not guilty, BECAUSE SHE IS NOT UNDER THE JURISDICITON OF THIS COURT! The court is expressly for people of high political office.

As too the land case, I believe the government bought this piece of land for about 2 billion baht, and sold it for 1/3 the value....it was not just a piece of land the government had owned for hundreds of years....

Where is Dog the Bounty Hunter?? We need a group of mercenaries to bring this family back to Thailand. Until some solid action happens to this elete corrupt group there is little hope of changing the som num nah attitude here in the Kingdom.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin to appeal his conviction

Former prime minister and fugitive Thaksin Shinawatra is expected today to give his green light for the defence team to prepare an appeal for his conviction on the Ratchadapisek land case, chief defence lawyer Kamnuan Chalopatham said on Friday.

Should Thaksin authorise to seek the appellate review, the defence team will start to map out its legal strategy in outlining the fresh evidence relating to factual informations and legal issues pertaining to the case, Kamnuan said.

The appeal will be lodged at the Supreme Court within 30 days for a review by its full bench. Should the high court rule to launch the appellate review, the extradition request has to be suspended pending the outcome of the judicial decision.

The Nation / 2008-10-24

[Journalist]

I think Thaksin is going to have to seek a Pardon - prior to which of course he would obviously have to acknowledge his guilt.

In some bizarre way that compromise might bring some reconciliation.

If he can accept his guilt that moves everything one step forward. I feel he would get pardoned, Thailand does not treat its former duff leaders brutally.

[sriracha john]

Woodsome Manor

Surrey, England

22 of October, 2008

Dear My Friends in International Media,

I am writing to you today to clarify few facts, The news headlines have reported that I have been convicted of corruption for two years stemming from the purchase of land by my wife, Khunying Potjaman Shinawatra.

What you have read is true, I was convicted for two years, but not because of corruption charge. The only reason I was sentenced to Jail is because at the time my wife bought the land through the open bid, I was the Prime Minister.

I listened to the judgment yesterday and even now I am still confused ; there is no evidence of fraud, corruption nor abuse of power in relation to the bid in question; my wife was the one who in volved and made decision to bid for the land, offered a lot more seller, Financial Instit ution Development Fund (FIDF), than other bidders, signed the contract with the seller, paid for the land with no involvement from her husband except when he was required to sign a spousal consent form, In terms of any alleged influence I may have had no direct supervisory power over the FIDF. Interestingly, the Court did not find the sale transaction of my wife unlawful or illegal, they did not convict her because she is not a politician; nevertheless, I was . I trust that you will independently verify the above facts as professional journalists often do. Unfortunately, most of you professsional colleagues in Thailand refuse to do so.

The best. I can comprehend is that I was convicted simply because I was a politician . In that case I was quite guite guilty cause I was quite a successful politician, I got elected twice by the majority of thai people as Prime Minister.

If I were to be guilty of anything, that would be what I have shown to the Thai people, especially those underprivileged rural thais that they can, and have the right to, demand their government to provide effective policy and programs to improve their lives.

I received this judgment with mixed feeling; relief for my wife as I pulled her into enough troubles because of my politcal ambition to bring greatness and well-being to my country and my people, amused and bitter with the illogical of the judgment, and worry for those politicians in Thailand that they could go to jail simply because their unhappy spouses may sought to manipulate the law.

For those of you who may not be too familiar with Thailand, state offices and enterprises in Thailand are doing so many businesses from telecommunication, banking, power generator or even owning gas stations.

I do not know should I laugh or cry to see the direction Thailand is moving forward: a democratically elected leader was put out of job because he cooked on a TV show but those who unlawfully trespassed and occupying the government house got protection from the Court.

Whatever happen to me is a political driven actions collaborated by various group of privileged elites who believe in anything but democracy. I am a threat to them because I represent the principle of liberal democracy which promote hope and pride of the poor of my country.

Thailand is and will remain a great and beautiful country. Few people cannot face the face,obstructing the will of majority of the people. I believe that at the end Thai people will win over this struggle. And the end of their nightmare is not far.

I thank you for the opportunity to share the facts with you.

Truly Yours,

Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra

================================================================

http://www.oknation.net/blog/athanawat/2008/10/25/entry-2

[Journalist]

^Is this authentic? Khun Athanawat's blog on OK Nation?

Well, if it is real, he's probably right, if he'd stayed a businessmen and not decided to be the CEO of politics, his family would have been allowed to do their property wheeler deals without being scrutinised.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Journalist

[animatic]

Journalist, quite right.

If he had stayed CEO and bought big properties he would be golden now.

But I suspect Potty drove him long and hard for better kow tow positioning,

and I suspect that he was driven round the twist in the process.

He writes something like this,

but says he is through with poitics. NOT!

What sheer and utter BS.

......I have been convicted of corruption for two years stemming from the purchase of land by my wife........

......no involvement from her husband except when he was required to sign a spousal consent form.....

...........at the time my wife bought the land through the open bid, I was the Prime Minister.........

........even now I am still confused ;

there is no evidence of fraud, corruption nor abuse of power in relation to the bid in question...

.......In terms of any alleged influence I may have had no direct supervisory power over the FIDF

....The best. I can comprehend is that I was convicted simply because I was a politician.....

.......Whatever happen to me is a political driven actions collaborated by various group of privileged elites

who believe in anything but democracy. I am a threat to them because I represent the principle of

liberal democracy which promote hope and pride of the poor of my country...........

He confused because he didn't get away with it.

Did he never believe the law was real?

Or did he never believe anyone would APPLY the law to HIM?

He acknowleges that he was convicted, but the SENTENCE is 2 years,

the conviction is forever...

No involvement except he knew and signed a paper to that affect

HE was PM and should have known or been told it was NOT LEGAL for him to sign that paper.

Other than the fact there was a specific LAW against he allowing her to

have ANY business dealings with government agencies.

They ignored that law. That IS corruption.

He can fire or replace the Finance minister,

the finance minister can fire or replace the head of FIDF

and all under him.

He can't even get his mind around this own guilt.

And then on into the sympathy and political talking point parts.

He only was convicted for helping the little people,

the big bad people want to screw them, so they had to screw him yada yada.

Us against them, divide and conquer.

No thought that he actually broke a law...

The WILL to move this through the courts certainly has a political element,

hbut the facts Jack are he did it he's guilty he's convicted.

BARRING new ACTUAL evidence. Not supposition.

I can't see there is possibly ACTUAL exculpatory evidence that CAN exist.

But some of his lawyers will want to have another payday and will advise

they can 'do something'

This is a person with no shame or scruples.

Living in the next country over from fantasy land.

Dangerous neighborhood too.

Edited October 25, 2008 by animatic

[newtronbom]

I wonder if what we has been discussed about Thaksin this and he being a criminal etc.etc. is only some sort of a cliche... of people who are living in an illusionary dumb sheep kind of follow the leader with the biggest mouth..isn't there anyone here on the forum who has the GUTS to be pro-Thaksin??? I don't understand much about politics...what I do understand is that Thailand after he is ousted has been exposed of not able to handle democracy....The PAD has destroyed more than Thaksin with his " corruption" or criminal activities....foreign investments under Thaksin was more stable...now forget it....I wouldn't want to invest anything into Thailand...No one now will be able to run Thailand with a strong fist...which the Thais need...a strong leader....corrupt or not....so long the majority of Thailand propers isn't that more important??? The poor was benefitting so much, more stability, educational reform, fight against corruption, crime, drugs....all a major push towards a better Thailand...Now it is all going down the hole...just because a small minority rich big mouths are envious of Thaksins successes.....think of this for a minute...hope more people on this forum has the GUTS to also respond.....

I agree with you there. This country was much more stable under Taksin. He bought in a lot of reforms that really did benefit the poor. One good example is the 30 baht hospital card. That gave any one in need, access to state hospital. I also agree that no one would want to invest here at the moment either. At least under Taksin, investors stood a fair chance of making a good profit. Better the devil you know, than as it is now, where we have all these “super rich” people behind the scenes pulling the strings on these protestors for their own “political and financial” interests and “not the countries interests”. Good on you for speaking out. Taksin is corrupt, but he ran a good shop!

[Old Man River]

I know you are in the industry. However, we are discussing a court case, not how business is done in Thailand. Do you seriously think this is much different from business in the past? Only some of the players at the top were different. The others you mentioned are the same guys that have been in this industry for many, many years. Business as usual, mate.

Since we are discussing a court case here, I can only base my opinions on what has been publicly reported. You have made the comment: "If the price was above market value, how come every single property developer at that time felt that it was undervalued yet did not bit for it?" You seem to be hinting that the appraisers who came up with the market values at the time of the auction may have falsified their work. I understand the FDIC used world class appraisers. Do you know different?

Collusion on bidding is hard to prove in court unless there is clear cut information. Do you know of any such information?

The issue of official valuation and actual market value have little to do with eachother; as you probably know basically every property is officially valued at a significantly lower value than price paid, which is why mortgages are usually set at 75% of the official valuation, which is usually around 60% of the true value - almost every single person who gets a mortgage can report the same experience. Government valuations....meaningless.

They did NOT use worldclass appraisers AFAIK, they used government valuations. Why - do you have some document that suggest that they DID use a worldclass appraiser - and if so - knowing as every property developer does that you can get a favourable or unfavourable appraisal from many worldwide property companies, how can we even rely on anything short of an audited appraisal?

Collusion on bidding is irrelevant between the 3 parties is in any case not relevant, the law states clearly that the PM is not allowed to interfere to sell assets directly to associated parties, i.e. his wife.

He would presumably not be allowed to sell to her even if it was at a market price, a lower than market price or even a higher than market price.

Which makes it even more stupid, although certainly not the most blatant of the TRT corruption deals - that they didn't even try to hide it.

As for collusion, given my own dealings with TRT in areas completely unrelated to this matter, I would say 100% there is no paper record, but 99% confident that at least L&H and Khunying Or spoke to eachother about it and that 100% confident other developers knew who was bidding and 99% confident that the issue of what price they intended to bid at was at least available to both sides (or to Khunying Or) prior to close of auction.

Clever not to have a paper trail. Very stupid to break a very simple law that exists almost everywhere around the world precisely to avoid conflicts of interest.

Do you want to debate the cooking show illegal work - similar situation for Samak.

Steveromagnino, I am not going to argue with you on what you say as I have heard it all before, and frankly, I think most of it is true anyway. Still, this is a court case and my arguments related only to those testified to in court as that is what the judges based their decision on.

At the end of the day, he was convicted for knowing his wife was buying the property, even though it appeared (in the court) that the purchase was legal. That isn't a whole lot of guilt for someone who has been described as the most corrupt person ever to serve as PM. This is the problem I have had with this case from the beginning.

I await the cases on the airport, where the real corruption was supposed to have occurred.

[animatic]

.....Now it is all going down the hole...just because a small minority rich big mouths are envious of Thaksins successes.....think of this for a minute...hope more people on this forum has the GUTS to also respond.....

Taksin is corrupt, but he ran a good shop!

Then why was Thaksin convicted for breaking a law he should have known of,

while running such a good shop?

If running a good shop means the government that should enforce the laws,

is entitled to break them as IT sees fit, a good shop seems a poor deal.

No leader should be allowed to break the laws just because he is a decent manager.

PERIOD!

Just because he was lucky enough to be elected during the world's financial upswing,

doesn't mean he CREATED that upswing and so is a great manager.

Envious of Thaksin's sucess, eh,

I suspect most of the real upper guys have MUCH more salted away than Thaksin.

But I am also sure they found him crass, new money, and arrogant beyond respect.

And in the 6 months before the coup his mental state was clearly deteriorating.

Clearly observed on the public stage. I could see the pressure building, he could not handle it.

He would have gotten quite dangerous with hand still on the levers of power.

They took the lever back. Now with him wanting revenge for that face slapping slight,

they are bound and determined to NOT let him get it back.

Non-starter, they CAN'T let him back into power, ever.

Don't be fooled by his political sob stories, he doesn't CARE about the little people,

they are only a political tool of power.

[marshbags]

I wonder if what we has been discussed about Thaksin this and he being a criminal etc.etc. is only some sort of a cliche... of people who are living in an illusionary dumb sheep kind of follow the leader with the biggest mouth..isn't there anyone here on the forum who has the GUTS to be pro-Thaksin??? I don't understand much about politics...what I do understand is that Thailand after he is ousted has been exposed of not able to handle democracy....The PAD has destroyed more than Thaksin with his " corruption" or criminal activities....foreign investments under Thaksin was more stable...now forget it....I wouldn't want to invest anything into Thailand...No one now will be able to run Thailand with a strong fist...which the Thais need...a strong leader....corrupt or not....so long the majority of Thailand propers isn't that more important??? The poor was benefitting so much, more stability, educational reform, fight against corruption, crime, drugs....all a major push towards a better Thailand...Now it is all going down the hole...just because a small minority rich big mouths are envious of Thaksins successes.....think of this for a minute...hope more people on this forum has the GUTS to also respond.....

I agree with you there. This country was much more stable under Taksin. He bought in a lot of reforms that really did benefit the poor. One good example is the 30 baht hospital card. Highjacked from respected academics who gave birth to the idea in the first place, ( yet couln,t, for some unknown reason get it implimented. ) until that is Thaksin saw it as a vehicle to enhance his election purposes and other self serving political interests !!! That gave any one in need, access to state hospital. I also agree that no one would want to invest here at the moment either. At least under Taksin, investors stood a fair chance of making a good profit. Better the devil you know, than as it is now, where we have all these “super rich” people behind the scenes pulling the strings on these protestors for their own “political and financial” interests and “not the countries interests”. Good on you for speaking out. Taksin is corrupt, but he ran a good shop!

[Pierrot]

Today we had a couple of meeting with a group of Thai businessmen touring Hong Kong and China to participate to the local trade shows. During lunch we had a light hearted discussion about the current situation in Thailand. When we asked their opinion regarding the recent conviction of Mr. Thaksin, all we got was an embarrassed silence, obviously they didn't want to talk about it. I know there were people from both side but it seems that they all believe this media circus doesn't serve anybody's interest.

On the other hand, when the discussion moved to the protest in the streets, there was no more embarrassment but a unanimous condemnation of a group of selfish individual who don't care about the well being of the country. So I don't know who the PAD supporters represent but definitively not the business sector.

Or you just lunched with a TRT / PPP corner of the business sector.

Face it your lunch mates side lost and haven't figured out the next game plan.

Sorry for this late answer but I've been a bit busy lately.

First if my lunch mates were from the PPP, so far they are on the winning side, but here you really miss the point. I'm a bit disappointed because I didn't realize you're the kind of person who believes pay checks grow on trees.

If you are a businessman on a trade show, whatever your political opinion;

When your customers are more worried about the political situation than the quality of your products, you know you have a problem.

When they are scare of coming to visit you because of protests in the street and the fear of one more military coup, you know you have a problem.

When they ask about strikes, power cut, closed airports and if you're really sure to be able to fulfill their orders, you know you have a problem.

Once they have placed their orders somewhere else, you know they won't come back, you know you have a really BIG problem.

When all the factories who produce for export will be closed, you will see if self sufficiency really works … And the urban idiots who support the current unrests will have some explaining to do to their cousins, the rural idiots, when begging for a bowl of rice.