Severe Overstay! Advice Needed?

[myrealprofit]

This is not a troll thread, and yes, I know I have been an idiot, but I am still a human being that makes mistakes, so I am not looking for the forum lurkers waiting to flame someone. Also, I am sure I am not the first foreign guy to come here after being in a dead end 8 year marriage to an American woman, to come here to what first seems like paradise for a middle aged divorcee!!

Now, on with the situation.

I came here on a 1 year visa that is now expired 6 months ago, and I did not renew the final 90 day extension (visa run) so I guess I would be 9 months?

I guess it is the same old story, I came here for a vacation to have some fun, you go through what seems like a thousand Thai ladies, and get fed up and beat up by the High-So ladies, Bar/Massage ladies etc, one things leads to another and you wake up married to a beautiful younger Thai lady that treats you like a king, and swears "No teerak, I never go work massage again" "I wuv youuuuu" (even though that is all I can think and talk about because that is all I know) I had a remote position and worked from home, so I relocated here, rented out my house back home when the economy is going well. But now, the company I worked for went out of business, the family renting my house back home was laid off and has abandoned the home, I have been dealing with what is now the typical Thai-farang-bar girl-failing marriage story, (nitemare actually)

The months have passed very quickly as I rationalized each month, that next month I can afford to get myself financially out of this mess, and now I am how long overstayed technically?

I am back on my feet financially, I have thankfully cut my losses with the Thai girl and doomed marriage, which it seems most Thai-farang marriages are.

What are my best options? Buy a ticket back to the states, and hope I get to the airport OK, and only have to pay the $20,000 baht fine, (or whatever amount it will be with the Thai extortion tax)

Do I go to our US Embassy and explain my situation, that I am one of their citizens who pays for their facility, salary, and to protect US citizens abroad, and that I really don't want to end up dying in the Thai Immigration holding facility because it is not "Their problem"?

Yes I know this is a mess, but I am now out of the "Ether" of living here!

Please advise?

Thanks

[Carib]

Buy a ticket , pay the max fine (20.000) and that is it.

And it is not an extortion tax, it is a penalty for the ones who overstay, like you.

[Soutpeel]

...What are my best options? .../quote]

Get a ticket, get the airport, pay your THB 20,000 fine and get the h*ll out....and hope you dont get caught in the mean time....

Dont really see how you can call this extortion tax, your the one on the overstay, your the one who hasn't followed the rules and correct regarding the US embassy its not their problem. You really need to start be accountable and responsible for your own actions and stop trying to blame someone else....

[ubonjoe]

What are my best options? Buy a ticket back to the states, and hope I get to the airport OK, and only have to pay the $20,000 baht fine,

Do I go to our US Embassy and explain my situation,

Please advise?

Thanks

Buy a ticket go to the airport and pay the 20,000 baht fine.

You can go to the US conulate and tell them your story. They will loan you the money for a ticket and enough to live on until you leave. They will also put a large stamp in your passport so that you can't leave the states until the loan is paid back.

They will not loan you the money for the overstay fine.

Good Luck

[jamesjdaly]

The main thing is........do NOT get caught between now and the airport. If you do, you're in sh1t!! Keep your head down and discuss this with no-one!!

[wxpwzrd]

Or, get caught and have a great time in detention. No sympathy here.

[jcon]

so do you want to stay in thailand or return home? or just sort out the overstay? didn't get that part.

overstay is a biaaatch. my friend, a few weeks ago was bullied into paying 20k at immigration for coming in her US passport, getting her Thai Passport here (half-thai), and while leaving they saw her US passport and asked to see it... yada yada they made her cry and she paid. Lesson learned. could have been solved in her case, but i'm afraid not yours.

even if you want to stay, i'd stay away from immigration (as in Suan Plu immigration) and not try to plead your case there, nor would I try to go to the embassy and tell them what you said above, because you won't get very far with "my tax dollars blah blah blah."

book a ticket somewhere else (home, if that's where you want to go - somewhere close if you're coming back). pay 20k at the airport. get a receipt (haha i love that i said that, this is Thailand lol), and that's really all you can do.

need i say don't do anything stupid between now and then.

p.s. awesome first post.

edit: p.p.s. no need to try to tell your story at the airport either. just say you're sorry and pay. slaggin off the thai women that have worked you over is NOT going to help. i'll even tell you what to say in thai: "Kor thod krup phom. Phom ngo eng krup phom. Kor thod jing jing krup phom." ***then pay and do the walk of shame***

[jamesjdaly]

I totally agree with jcon. I wouldn't go anywhere near the Immigration Office to plead your case. Don't forget, we are walking ATMs and they want our cash!!

Stay low, keep out of any trouble whether it's your fault or not and don't go sniffing around the usual tourist haunts where the coppers ask to see passports. Don't even get the bus to the airport. Use a taxi.

[Soutpeel]

so do you want to stay in thailand or return home? or just sort out the overstay? didn't get that part.

overstay is a biaaatch. my friend, a few weeks ago was bullied into paying 20k at immigration for coming in her US passport, getting her Thai Passport here (half-thai), and while leaving they saw her US passport and asked to see it... yada yada they made her cry and she paid. Lesson learned. could have been solved in her case, but i'm afraid not yours.

Well actually the immigration where technically right charging her for an over stay, she entered as a US citizen, and was stamped in as such, and not as a Thai citizen, therefore subject to the rules as everyone else....agreed maybe a little heavy handed, but she shouldnt have entered on one passport and tried to depart on another...

[jcon]

i don't disagree. note i never said that immigration was wrong, because their point of contention was valid at the time. i said it could have been solved (the thai way, aka. a few phone calls) but that would have to happen before she paid... and they were pretty mean about it according to her so she just wanted to pay and get outta there... interestingly, though, she had travelled in and out of Thailand MANY times on her Thai PP in between the time frame when she came in on her US and the time they finally charged her. i was a bit peeved about that, as the first time she left was not long after she got her Thai PP, which would have resulted in a much smaller fine. off-topic, sorry.

[Mario2008]

I think immigration was wrong. The fact that she entered on a foreign passport doesn't mean she is not Thai. She is Thai and therefore cannot overstay.

[Soutpeel]

I think immigration was wrong. The fact that she entered on a foreign passport doesn't mean she is not Thai. She is Thai and therefore cannot overstay.

Understand what your saying, but not a question of citizenship per se, its more to do with "paperwork" and system, She would have been in the system as a US citizen not a Thai citizen, therefore subject to the same rules as any other "foreigner" coming to Thailand.

If immigration had not seen her US passport, while she was using her Thai passport she would have got away with it, but if she came back into Thailand at a later stage on her US passport, she still would be in the system as a US citizen and would have been recorded as never leaving Thailand. As you could imagine this would have caused even more problems.

I have dual nationality with two passports have been pulled up before for trying to do the same thing (not in Thailand), I got a right royal telling off by immigration for doing it....As I stated in the previous post, it was a little heavy handed ie a fine of THB 20,000, as if common sense had prevailed on the part of the immigration, a telling off is all that should have been in order, as yes she cant be on an overstay in a country she is a citizen of.

[Maestro]

Immigration was right. It was the lady’s choice which nationality she wanted to use when entering Thailand and once she made that choice immigration had to respect it and treat her accordingly.

However, because she is also a Thai national she could, before her permission to stay in her US passport expired, have applied at an immigration office for a one-year extension of stay and I believe it would even have been free for her. She failed to do that and it could not later be done retroactively.

I don’t know if jcon was present when her friend had to pay the overstay fine but regardless what happened it is wrong to say that she was “bullied” into paying the fee.

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Maestro

[Mario2008]

Agree it is the paperwork and system, which in this way are getting messed up, and it is policy of immigration to charge overstay in these cases. I question the legality of this policy and doubt if the immigration law foresees this problem and thus there is a legal base for fining someone with dual nationality.

The consequense of immigration reasoning is that you can not only be on overstay, but also detained as an illegal alien awaiting deportation while having a Thai passport, because you entered on a foreign passport. That I can't see happening and no judge would allow it.

[Soutpeel]

Agree it is the paperwork and system, which in this way are getting messed up, and it is policy of immigration to charge overstay in these cases. I question the legality of this policy and doubt if the immigration law foresees this problem and thus there is a legal base for fining someone with dual nationality.

The consequense of immigration reasoning is that you can not only be on overstay, but also detained as an illegal alien awaiting deportation while having a Thai passport, because you entered on a foreign passport. That I can't see happening and no judge would allow it.

You have to bear in mind, although a lot of countries recognise dual nationality, the laws are not written to accomadate a dual national. I know when I had my telling off for doing the same thing, I was told by the immigration, that I basically had to choose which nationality I want to be entering the country and had to enter and leave on the same nationality passport.

Basically Thai immigration have followed the letter of the law, she had entered as a US citizen, and not a Thai citizen, and therefore subject to the same rules as a foreigner being in Thailand. She could not be detained as an illegal alien, because she could prove her Thai citizenship via her Thai passport.

Where Thai immigration technically correct in fining her THB 20,000, in this particular circumstance ? - Yes, is it morally right ? - No

But at the end day you cant have it both ways, she was either a US citizen or Thai citizen in terms of the law.

I may be completely wrong here, but maybe she presented her US passport to leave, the immigration seen she was on an overstay, told her how much the fine was, and she then pulled out her Thai passport as a way as not to pay her overstay....I would guess this would p*ss off immigration no end, hence they forced the issue and made her pay the overstay..

[Maestro]

Morals don’t enter into it but if they did, was it morally right for her to ignore the “until” date of the entry stamp in her US passport instead of going to an immigration office and get her free extension? Morals are a two-way street.

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Maestro

[Mario2008]

You have to bear in mind, although a lot of countries recognise dual nationality, the laws are not written to accomadate a dual national. I know when I had my telling off for doing the same thing, I was told by the immigration, that I basically had to choose which nationality I want to be entering the country and had to enter and leave on the same nationality passport.

Basically Thai immigration have followed the letter of the law, she had entered as a US citizen, and not a Thai citizen, and therefore subject to the same rules as a foreigner being in Thailand. She could not be detained as an illegal alien, because she could prove her Thai citizenship via her Thai passport.

That was my point, the fine must be based on te law, which I doubt in this case. Immigration laws are not writen with dual nationality in mind.

You get fined for an overstay because your permission to stay has expired. You can not say because of that we fine you and at the same time say, but because you have a Thai passport you have permision to stay in the country, so we won't detain you and deport you.

I agree that the girl should have taken care of the passport problem, if for nothing more than out of respect for immigration and their work. But immigration should also be able to allow people to change the passport they are staying on from foreign to a Thai one at any immigration office. Without the need for people to exit on their foreign passport and come back on their Thai passport.

[jcon]

...If immigration had not seen her US passport, while she was using her Thai passport she would have got away with it, but if she came back into Thailand at a later stage on her US passport, she still would be in the system as a US citizen and would have been recorded as never leaving Thailand. As you could imagine this would have caused even more problems...

Well first about the bullying part, i was with her at check in, and she showed her US passport because obviously she needed to show it or a Visa to be back in the US. That's not/never is a problem. The alleged "bullying" was more of a reference to how she says she was treated and how it would not have gone down that way say, had I been there. In thai, we would refer to as "khon doo mee rakaa" for which there really isn't a direct translation but simply, they saw her as an easy target... not being able to speak thai very well, nor being able to read/write didn't help.

But the same applies to me, and I was upset that they scared her into going to the ATM machine and handing over the money when it really would have taken 3 phone calls to get it sorted. I was upset that I wasn't there to warn her that once the money has changed hands, no matter what power you have, the game is over.... "No, I won't pay", "No, I don't have the money" "jail me" or any of these would have sufficed to buy the time necessary to sort it out... but then again she needed to get her flight, and well in her mind she was just upset and said 20K what the hel_l i just want to sleep (it was 130am). She only called me after the whole thing went down. Like I said lesson learned, but not regarding overstaying, but regarding the way things work here in LOS. Like i said, 'technically' she was in the wrong (paperwork-wise), but it would not have taken much to make the case that you shouldn't be charging a Thai national 20k baht for an overstay... which is why i'm sure they were in a rush to make her take they money out and hand it over before her rationality returned and her fear subsided.

About the highlighted paragraph above, if it was actually the case, then I'd be "in the system" about a zillion times over and over as entering thailand sometime in 2002 as an American and never leaving (as that American) but leaving/entering as a Thai in Thailand and entering/leaving many countries under both passports. And yes, I've shown my US passport many times at check-in in BKK (for NA/EU) travel and they've typed in my passport number and I assure you i'm not typing you from prison. Who knows if the check-in info and the immigration info are even connected...

[Maestro]

… when it really would have taken 3 phone calls to get it sorted…

I have serious doubts about that.

…Who knows if the check-in info and the immigration info are even connected...

To the best of my knowledge it is currently not connected. The only connection as such is the boarding pass that has to be presented with the passport, giving the passenger’s name, flight number, destination and boarding time.

…entering thailand sometime in 2002 as an American and never leaving (as that American) but leaving/entering as a Thai in Thailand and entering/leaving many countries under both passports…

Do I understand correctly that in 2002 you got a Thai entry stamp in your US passport and after that you left Thailand on your Thai passport, since then always entered and left Thailand on your Thai passport, and until today never got a Thai departure stamp in your US passport to close the 2002 entry in the US passport? If this is the case, then you are indeed still in the Thai immigration system as a US national. Of course, they don’t run a program to see who is overstaying and then hunt them down. As long as you don’t present your US passport again to a Thai immigration official your overstay as a US national will not be discovered.

Generally, it is necessary to get the Thai departure stamp in the same passport as the arrival stamp and I believe Thai immigration officers are checking this meticulously. However, if you arrived in Thailand on your US passport, then got your Thai passport in Thailand and left with the Thai passport the question of a missing arrival stamp in your Thai passport does not arise. Is this what you did in 2002?

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Maestro

[Soutpeel]

Well first about the bullying part, i was with her at check in, and she showed her US passport because obviously she needed to show it or a Visa to be back in the US.

I am getting confused now as this "bullying" incident appears to have occured at the airline check-in, not at passport control, as there is talk about showing a visa for the US, which is nothing to do with Thai immigration, of course the airlines make sure you have a valid visa or passport for the flight you are getting on, but not check if you are on an overstay...

Forgive my ignorance on overstays, as I never have been in this situation, where extactly is a Thai overstay picked up, at the airline check-in or at passport control ?, my guess at passport control ?

[jcon]

soutpeel,

it occurred at passport control, as i said i was at the check-in counter, the only place she would have had to show the US passport as the destination was the US.... and yes, overstays are picked up at passport control, haven't you seen the people at the little desks behind the people at the little counters it's them.

Maestro, I did as you wrote. Entered on US, then applied and received Thai, then have exited/entered on Thai ever since. My friend was doing the same, just that the guy at passport control saw her US passport as she pulled them both out her wallet (they were in there together). He asked to see it, then it was over.

In 2002 therefore i did have an entry stamp in my US passport and no exit, but then I just applied for a new passport at the embassy ("lost") and then I had a clean passport no stamps. Then the first time back in the US, I had a passport with no stamps at all entering passport control and all the guy did was ask me why there were no stamps. Told him I had a Thai PP, and that was that.

I won't address how many phone calls you think it would or would not take. You're a TV moderator, but you're not me. Some TV members know me and understand that in my case, it would be quite possible to sort out without having to pay the 20k. Take it or leave it. I still think it was wrong for them to make a Thai National pay 20k for an 'overstay' in her own country, paperwork or not.

[Maestro]

Thanks. As a song goes: “I can see clearly now”, and I can understand how upsetting it must have been for your friend. There are indeed some immigration officers of the old school still around who think it a dishonour to Thailand for a Thai to take a second nationality and I can imagine that this particular officer was one of them. In the situation you describe where the Thai passport issued in Thailand was presented and the officer only got a glimpse of the US passport through a mistaken movement by your friend he could, had he wanted to, have ignored the existence of the US passport and processed her departure on the assumption that this was the first time your friend ever left Thailand, with her new Thai passport. Because your friend spoke little Thai I suspect that the officer begrudged her Thai passport, feeling that she was not a “real” Thai. I have seen this happen before.

There are other, kinder immigration officers and I remember a post where a US/Thai dual national on arrival in Thailand, going through the “domestic passport” channel, presented by mistake her US passport and the officer asked her for her Thai passport, thus saving her some inconvenience later on.

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Maestro

[inthepink]

I totally agree with jcon. I wouldn't go anywhere near the Immigration Office to plead your case. Don't forget, we are walking ATMs and they want our cash!!

From personal experience this is simply not the case. Immigration are not usually interested in people who want to pay their overstays and leave the country. They advise you to do it at the airport.