Behaviour Correction; Dog Made A Big Mistake This Morning.

[Cuban]

Prelog for those that might not recall I have three dogs, two(male) at 7 months old - 21 Kg rottweiler cross, social happy dogs and a ~1 kg house pet, wife's long term small fluffy dog (about two years old), female.

The two large dogs remain outside the house at almost all times, but are sometimes allowed inside for food etc. They are walked and fed twice a day, and have access to their play field next to the house, when I am at home. Their play fighting together is not too serious and each carries a couple of fading scars from the other. When meeting other dogs they always approach with 'happy' tails in expectation of a new friend as it were, and the other dogs in the area are also generally friendly. The two other large dogs in the area have visited our house as our dogs have visited theirs with no sign of any aggression either way. You get the overall picture.

Over the past week or so during post walk morning/evening doggie inspection I have found a few ticks, thanks to one of the other larger dogs that does no get groomed as often as perhaps he should, the tick issue is being dealt with and is not a problem. However taken into context, you will understand that what has normally been a quick post-walk check has become a longer more detailed grooming process for each dog.

From the dog's point of view this is just increased pack grooming - all three dogs submit to this process and accept whatever is required. With reference back to asserting my position as pack leader every so often I accept grooming back, hand licks and nibbling shirt buttons. (And no Bina, nostrils are still out of bounds.)

This morning just before opening the front door to be greeted by the two larger dogs this morning I noticed one of the two scratching, they seldom scatch without cause so as soon as I got outside I got him to lay down for inspection. No need to force either down as they understand (verbal que) it's inspection time. As I am kneeling over one dog checking where he was scratching, I suddenly I feel a warm wet sensation over my back.

Yes, the other dog walked around behind me, raised a hind leg and pissed on me. Not just a quick scent marking - a full morning bladder's worth.

---------pause in writting to allow you to compose yourself after laughing---------

So after the first <deleted> reaction he was severely reprimanded. I am aware of the limits of the physical 'correction' he received, so as not to show an over-reaction on my part and cause him to be aggressive based on survival fear. But understanding the 'pack' nature, my second reaction was exclusion, he was isolated at the end of the garden and chained. (Allowed free roam after about three hours.)

During my time to reflect the event my first thoughts were that this was not a malevolent act of displeasure or a stress reaction but simply him trying to assert domination over me for giving grooming to the other dog before him first thing in the morning, jealous in relation to perceived pecking order. (I am not aware that either is groomed before the other normally, the only order which can be predicted is that the other dog always accepts his collar prior to a walk first. Submissive action on his part.)

This was not a simple scent marking IMHO, during morning walks (sun just up) I wear my doggie walking clothes that already smell a bit doggie. No other doggie or other scents on me.

In their play he does not always lead the fight and does in fact accept play-humping from the other dog, however when out walking he does like to take the lead as explorer-leader. His testes are somewhat more developed that his brother, so I consider he is undergoing a teenage 'test the limits' phase brought on by a increase in testosterone where he seeks to establish a dominate position within the pack.

My estimate for full adult weight for both of them will be about 40Kg each, training to follow my instruction has been on going, but I acknowledge that I can always do more in this area. I shudder at the thought of either of them having a question in their mind as to whether to obey my command or not. Our doggie time together is more play than training of late so I don't see him as a bad dog - 'we' just had a bad morning.

His exclusion from the pack also meant he missed this morning's walk, this really affected him and is probably a greater punishment than any other.

Plans considered this morning to rename him 'Eunuch', ensure he never suffers testicular cancer and discuss his gender reassignment surgery here in Pattaya have been placed on hold after I read about testosterone and effect on long bone growth.

I don't see that option as a quick fix reaction to one single incident that has occured at an early stage within his teenage period which hopefully has been addressed this morning and followed through with more training reforcement. But moving forward to this evening - I must more fully instill my pack leader position. I already remove a tasty bone part way through their meal to show that I can control their food supply. I make them sit before eating and sit in front of me before putting their leash on for walks. (More dog training material being downloaded now...)

I can not have a rebelous teen dog(s) risking an incident with our third smaller dog in the future.

More longer walks, trips to the beach to expell energy and doggie training time.

Any comments welcomed.

[ During the events detailed above the other dog stayed well out of the way and displayed submissive behavoiur during our solo walk and grooming check, which is normal for him. ]

Edited October 28, 2008 by Cuban

[bina]

yeah u are right... laughing.... and theres nothing wrong with a nice big tongue curling in to your nostril... but i digress..

yeah definate domination issue there. my male boxer used to pee on my female (ichchc....) during walks...

i would probably put him in a sit/stay next time while u groom the other dog; and each time.

and i definately wouldnt take a bone away from them in the middle. i would use the drop or release or let go command, take the bone, wait a minute, and then give them the take it/ eat or whatever , command. but not always. or i would make them give me the bone or take their food dish but give them something in return. its usually not recommened to take away food, but to get them used to people's hands in their faces, mouths when they are eating it is recommended to ADD food to the dish, and fussily place it in the food (picking up and releasing the kibble or whatever). same as the give/drop command. for the most part, use the give command and give the dog a small treat in return. later, if in emergency he is given the command to 'drop it' (or whatever u say), he will, even if not getting a treat in return.

foofoo my fluffy doggy , as u may have read, has some aggression and antisocial (for dogs) behaviors and food aggression was a vvery very very serioius issue with him. we couldnt get within several meters of him when he was eating anything. now, with all the work i've put in, we can take food out of his mouth (he still wont 'drop' but will allow us to open and remove things from his mouth, or wont touch a food or other bit if told NO, so that we can remove the nasty bit. i used small small pieces of hotdog as the 'treat' (not a bribe. after he opened his mouth, he got the tidbit, and i never used force to pry his mouth open. initially we did use the food to get him to open his mouth based on the 'bingo' method but only to get him to open along with the command.)

bina

[Cuban]

...and i definately wouldnt take a bone away from them in the middle. i would use the drop or release or let go command, take the bone...

I started removing bones that they were eating shortly after we adopted the dogs. I wanted them to understand that not everything they choose to want to eat - they are allowed to eat. Typical example is scraps picked up while we are out walking, a firm "give" and remove the offending item. I have not encountered any problem sticking my fingers into their mouth to hook out such a tasty rotten bone. Yes, it also enstills the message 'I control their food'. The same command is used for release the toy when playing fetch the stick, rag, ball games. Interestingly the dog who's manhood is was on the line is the better dog at this game/excercise.

My hand in their food is normal, sometimes I hand feed chicken, I know there are thoughts against this, but one dog is a much faster eater and would consume 75% of the food. I tend to hand feed the raw chicken or sometimes fish (mackrel/ pla saba) and then they share a bowl of whatever else they are getting. No food disputes to date.

I will try the add food to the bowl suggestion, thank you. I have thought that they are getting more food than they should, target about 420 grams each per day for 21Kg but not over active during the warmer weather.

[Nienke]

Cuban you should write a book! You have a funny way of writing.

I think your dog is just showing perfectly normal behavior. Nothing abnormal about it, just a bit sticky and smelly.

He's in his puberties and is looking where his boundaries are. Maybe stop for while with teaching him new things, but concentrate on reinforcing the things he already knows, and be very clear and strict in these. With some dogs you have to continue like this several months.

I don't think that leaving a delicous bone out of the food will do the trick. After all, he still got his food, didn't he?!.

And as for re-naming to Eunuch, it didn't work with a dog I've here. So, then I renamed him Beebeecue. Unfortunately, even that doesn't work. He just plainly refuses to follow that as well. :0 So, I gave up and continue with the original name and plan. Seems to work best. :D

Nienke

[Nienke]

I think I misunderstood about the food.

BTW, it is not natural for dogs to share their food. It is natural, though, to guard what they have. In their mind they have the full right to growl to and bite those that try to take away the food. It's that this a bit inconveneint for us, bare-skinned and clumsy people and, therefore, we train our dogs to accept (at least that's advisabale) that we can take stuff away from them or out of their mouthes.

Nienke

[Mossfinn]

---------pause in writting to allow you to compose yourself after laughing---------

You called that just about right.

Sorry can't help, have enough trouble with my own dogs, Sadie is on heat and as before, Leo keeps performing illegally in the scrum and goes in from the side.

Good Luck

Moss

[Slip]

LOL- thx for that Cuban.

I'm the last one really to comment in the presence of the dog experts on the board. (At the moment my 3 kilo, 2 month old pup is trying to savage my 25 kilo 1 year old). But as a 'one off' I wouldn't worry about it too much. Certainly not the kind of behaviour you want to encourage though.

[h90]

Thanks :D

What about pissing back?

[bina]

if u are worried about giving extra food, just give less in the bowl and hand put the rest of the rations into the bowl, not extra amounts....

bina

[PeaceBlondie]

You guys really make me laugh, psychoanalyzing dogs and cats. I have great patience in raising children, but would I allow a dog to relieve his bladder or colon on me? No, I might just kill him then and there.

[Nienke]

Wow PB, that's a bit strong of a remark, isn't it?!

It not only shows a lack of understanding of dog behavior, it also shows an unwillingness to understand it?

Being upset is logic, correcting this misbehavior is a logical follow-up, but to kill the animal for it ????????

Nienke

Edited October 29, 2008 by Nienke

[bina]

its not phsycho analyzing, pb, its pure animal behavior and behavior modification, a science ever since pavlov discovered a slavering hungry dog hearing a bell.

it works well with training children btw; karyn pryor, a spec. in this field also works with abused children using these methods .NOT peeing ont them... on working on breaking the behaviors down to causes and reactions operative and other conditioning; shaping a behavior (thanx neienke for working on foofoo's foot rage problem btw);

getting my nostirls cleaned out by a wet lhasa........he insists on helping me post on the forum, and its raining, so its rather like a wet wool blanket sitting on me....ichcch......

bina

israel

[Slip]

That's my 25 kilo, 1 year old dog, not child btw!

[Cuban]

Wow, I expected some 'incoming' response to this thread, but instant doggie death!

He's in his puberties and is looking where his boundaries are. I don't think that leaving a delicous bone out of the food will do the trick. After all, he still got his food, didn't he?!

On that morning, I confess he went without food until lunchtime, I spoke with my wife on the phone, she provided a mid-day snack etc. That evening he greeted me as normal if anything a little more attentive than usual, more of that below. Bones are an occasional mid week treat but more often held in reserve when they need to be kept distracted for a few hours or during our weekend BBQs etc.

BTW, it is not natural for dogs to share their food. It is natural, though, to guard what they have. In their mind they have the full right to growl to and bite those that try to take away the food.

Yes I understand this, but the natural state for a wild dog is that they 'fight' for the status to eat first with a better place in the pack's hierarchy. Even allowing for instinct and their nature, these domestic dogs have not had competition for food for generations. I watch to see if there is competition between the two larger dogs for food (sharing one bowl) but as yet there is none. I used to have two dogs as a child, they were quickly raised with each dog having it's 'own' bowl, the result was that the faster eater got fatter after finishing his bowl he would 'help' his brother. This time round they will share unless that becomes a problem in time. I don't want to separate their feeding - I think that might lead to the feeling of competition, I will wait and see.

I know people are just reading this thread for the pissing now....

if u are worried about giving extra food, just give less in the bowl....

Indeed, I was not questioning adding more, I was probably thinking aloud when writting the post above. Last night I removed and fiddled around with their bowl as they were about half way through. No adverse reaction from either, but happy when the bowl was returned with extra gravy.

You guys really make me laugh, psychoanalyzing dogs and cats. I have great patience in raising children, but would I allow a dog to relieve his bladder or colon on me?

No, I might just kill him then and there.

A proportionate response?

...correcting this misbehavior is a logical follow-up, but to kill the animal for it ?

Indeed, if one can apply logical thinking to making a pot of coffee, dealing with other road users or raising a child it should be possible to out think a dog with a mental capacity of a five year old child. Not being able to do so might explain some of the cases of rage that end up becoming news items.

I'm sure PB's comment was not literal. (?)

...getting my nostirls cleaned out by a wet lhasa.

I might start a poll thread petitioning for pictures.

What about pissing back?

Well someone had to come up with this suggestion, and I'm pleased that I'm able to say that I thought of it first. On the day in question when I returned home I watched his behaviour much more closely, possibly as this gave him more of my attention he responded in kind? We walked, they ate an evening meal and played a few games in front of the house. So the day ended normally...

Unfortunately there was a human problem during the late evening that required a neighbor visiting our house and a trip out for a few hours. The first action on my part was to chain the dogs up as with other people coming and going I could not rely that the gates would be properly closed or non-dog aware people may visit us.

When that local drama was over and we were again alone and the dogs freed to roam they were naturally still excited at the unusal late night activites, so we went for a short walk to settle them down.

On returning to my gate I felt that I should probably hurry inside for the downstair's toilet, but no, I saw what had to be done if my naughty dog was to fully accept that his border incursion on my pack leader status was to be quashed without question of doubt.

So on removing his leash, while he was sitting in front of me I pissed on his head and along his back. I called the other one over and gave him a quick lesson as well.

It's been two days now, with no sign of any status misunderstanding. He has taken to sitting more promptly when commanded and does not seem to have been adversely affected by the taste of his own medicine.

I've more to say about this event but it can wait...

[bina]

bowl was returned with extra gravy

--cuban, the idea is to return the bowl, THEN add the gravy with u fiddling around with their food... so that they always associate hands in the bowl as getting food.

feeding out of one bowl doesnt make or break the eating competition...it is usually better to feed separately to keep watch over problem or ill health eating/non eating, or if each dog has to get its own type of food. often feeding in separate rooms is needed for medical feeding problems though.

my boxers had separate bowls, but the male never never allowed the female to eat until he had checked out both bowls, altghou didnt neccesarily eat from both. they would often eat out of one bowl after he 'gave permission' to her to eat. they would drink water together from a huge bowl. very cute, two boxer noses snorting water all over the place.

bina

[PeaceBlondie]

I apologize for my intemperate remark. No, I would not kill a dog if he shat on me, but I might get rid of him if he did it twice.

[Pdaz]

I think that after I had chained the recaltinant mutt up I would have piss*d on him in return.. Pretty sure my bladder holds a larger volume than the dog's and that I would be piss*ng from a greater height too.... Of course I'm no Barbara Woodhouse... Most dog's I come into contact with usually get a boot up the *rse...