Observations

[jdinasia]

Ever notice some people are always right (at least in their own minds? like me!)

Some people live on the boards? I mean really what's up with 750 posts in 3 months?

Some people (even a moderator I think) don't even live here? C'mon I know that moderators are just "normal" members when posting ... but I think most people assume they speak with authority on the subjects at hand.

Some people seem to think that all Thais are in it for the $$ ... they will waffle about it when confronted but just refer to their posts.

All people seem to think it's OK for farang to lie about their ages ....

just reading over the boards for the last couple of months ... it's mind-boggling.

[donna]

Sure, JD.

In some boards, if anyone disagrees with anyone else, they resort to name calling and childish stuff like that. Not very mature, and not nice, either.

I absolutely know some Thai people that are in it for the $$, but they aren't everyone. One friend of mine gets money sent over from the middle east every month and used it to get a boob job. He hit the roof! Very funny though.

But for every one person who is in it for the money there is one or two who arent. We just have to be lucky and meet those ones, hey?

As for lying about our ages. I've never done it. I am 40 in January and have mixed feelings about it. I guess I should feel lucky to make it this far without 'expiring' before hand, so what the heck. I'll have a big party! Yay.

[ChrisP]

You should see some of the posters in other Forums...! THOUSANDS of posts inb 3 months.

I've only reached my number even after several months of membership.. I don't log on every day.. and as for "a position of Authority"... nope, I don't think I have that.. just some experience I can share.. I respect and value those who have more experience in LOS than me...!

Someone posted that Thailand operates (financially) like Victorian England.. where money was important in relationships and the class structure... I think I agree.

ChrisP

[et33.com]

well / everyone had their own experiences and own reactions to things big and small / we are all humans trying to cope in the best way we thought we know how / i believe we all try our best in ways that we learned thru' each our own life / so let it be / it's okay if some are there for the bucks / fun or just whatever... / have your say and that is that / no personal feelings please...

[ChrisP]

In some boards, if anyone disagrees with anyone else, they resort to name calling and childish stuff like that. Not very mature, and not nice, either

We don't do that here...

If you do, I'll bitch-slap you.!

(Now isn't that "mature"...)

ChrisP

Moderator

Edited December 6, 2004 by ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Gosh, who is it that would have over 700 posts in 3 months?!? What a loser!

Ever notice how certain posters never really start normal threads, never contribute in a positive way, and only really post when they want to slag off other members or make them feel bad or get attention or cause trouble? In some parts of the Net, they're called *TROLLS*! Good thing we don't have too many of those around here!

I'd like to take credit for the Victorian observation- must've been somewhere up there in those few posts that I have...

Chris, you rock- you're a great mod. You referee the discussions fairly and keep out the clowns (well, the less subtle ones! ), which is what a mod is supposed to do- *not* to dictate to us lesser mortals!

"Steven"

[Ice Treasure]

I reckon discussions in general should happen here, since it's the only area of the place with any class... or pizazz... or glam for that matter.

What are you guys doing for Xmas. I have to work.. bummer.

[donna]

I agree with you guys. This is the only board (Farang Females is an exception) where you seem to really give a shit about each other and want to give good advice when needed. Many others are too busy giving smartass answers to any question asked.

I hope you don't mind a straight chick dropping in every now and then?

And by the way, you do have class, pizazz, glam and glitter.

[Readytogo]

Most of the posts on this site seem to positive/helpful.

It's amazing the way that some people can round on a poster just because they disagree with him. Even on practical, relatively balanced sites like ajarn.com I have seen some really unprovoked attacks on people just for expressing an opinion that someome else did not like.

I have seen it here too, but sometimes the antagonists end up being pally, so that's fine.

[Ijustwannateach]

I figure it's about security and the need to fit in... a lot of people are very insecure and it's intolerable to them to be around those who think differently. Also, a lot of people live in denial about many things around them in their lives- it's quite necessary as a defense mechanism- and certain kinds of posts threaten to disturb their tranquillity. I have my own weak points in this regard, just like everybody. Heck, if I were thinking carefully about what I was doing, would I be here?

Ajarn's problem is pretty simple- a few too many trolls, a few too many security holes, and a bit too lenient modding. They *have* tightened up the ship a bit recently and things seem to be getting better as time goes on. However, it's not for the faint of heart or the timid- it's confrontational and proud of it. I prefer the more polite atmosphere here for any kind of serious dialogue.

And welcome, Donna! Not only straight women but also straight men welcome here, though few are man enough to do more than troll! And you say such nice things about our forum!

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

please define "normal thread"

[sting01]

please define "normal thread"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

mean politicaly correct it is not?

exemple, meet a gay guy, tell him he is a fagg ... how he will react? huh? But is it polically correct to say that? huh is it simply polite, not sure?

Ajarn... POST EDITED BY MODERATOR TO REMOVE OFFENSIVE COMMENTS... I precise I am still a proud member of ajarn and I found daily (mmmmm weekly ....... ooooops monthly ....) accurate information on the best way to teach the wonderfull shakespear language to the marvellous thai kids (who absolutely don't care about shakespear and RicharIII but who don't stop to ask for your cell number .... wonder why because I look like more like a dwarf in the "Lord of the rings" than to Eminem or Clash ' singer).

Normal thread should something as the opposite of this post, that I comitted by humor and to use a comparative description : totally opposite.

regards

The troll

Edited December 8, 2004 by ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

^A great post, even if you are a troll!

^^Well, how about threads where the main point is not to deliver thinly veiled whines about:

a. gay white men in Thailand in general (that gem was closed recently)

b. a mod on this forum

c. a very frequent poster on this forum

d. people who from their own experience have every reason to be careful about whom they date in Thailand and wish to communicate this experience with others

and is rather written to:

a. inform or warn about pertinent gay issues here in Thailand

b. be friendly, cute, or quirky

c. request information [such as your various requests about gay-friendly hotels, gay organisations, etc.]

d. discuss interesting stuff in a neutral or friendly manner?

Those would be more normal and, I think, more interesting and valuable to most of the readers here. But hey, that's just me! Seems to me the point of a forum is communication and social interaction online; it's a bit rich for someone with a really small number of posts to come on complaining about how others are posting so much and getting everything wrong and all! Have a different opinion? Post about it! That's the point and all, right?

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

^A great post, even if you are a troll!      

^^Well, how about threads where the main point is not to deliver thinly veiled whines about:

a.  gay white men in Thailand in general (that gem was closed recently)

b.  a mod on this forum

c.  a very frequent poster on this forum

d.  people who from their own experience have every reason to be careful about whom they date in Thailand and wish to communicate this experience with others

and is rather written to:

a.  inform or warn about pertinent gay issues here in Thailand

b.  be friendly, cute, or quirky

c.  request information [such as your various requests about gay-friendly hotels, gay organisations, etc.]

d.  discuss interesting stuff in a neutral or friendly manner?

Those would be more normal and, I think, more interesting and valuable to most of the readers here.  But hey, that's just me!  Seems to me the point of a forum is communication and social interaction online; it's a bit rich for someone with a really small number of posts to come on complaining about how others are posting so much and getting everything wrong and all!        Have a different opinion?  Post about it!  That's the point and all, right?

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah !! I understand ... I'm wrong and you are right! I should instead post about

a. My ex or not (bad bad bad thai boys!)

b. How dodgy is my candidate (bad bad bad thai boys!)

c. Some anonymous guy gets mugged by some anonymous thai's after an ill planned internet hook-up (again bad bad thai boys)

d. Bad gay pride parade (wow! didn't blame the thai boys directly here!)

My post was an observation. Nothing more and nothing less. I don't post an average of 7 posts a day. Instead I post when I have something to say or a question to ask :-) Guess all in all; I have better things to do than to slag off on thai boys and thailand all the time!

Chok dee!

P.S. Chris I think you do a fine job ... just find it interesting that a Mod is a vacationer and not a resident :-)

[tuky]

Hi JD,

I think there is no problem with a mod being a vacationer rather than a resident. I personally think Chris is one, if not the best mod we have here on thaivisa.

As you may be aware I am also a mod in this great gay forum, however I am not gay. I poke my head in here every time I log in (every day) yet I have never found Chris to be lacking. If Chris is the measure of what it takes to be a mod then I am proud to have been called one too.

BTW JD, very nice chatting with you in the live chat tonight, I hope to see you again soon.

tuky

Chris, your a champ.

[Ijustwannateach]

My topics about Thailand are not all negative; however in so many posts there will of course be some bad points discussed- and the threads about my candidate and my ex are not finished and don't necessarily show them in a bad light overall. My poor friend who was mugged was probably not mugged by actual gay guys; they were what we call 'thieves.'

However, since you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about my threads, enjoy the apparent negativity you find! You're getting your share of attention now, after all!

"Steven"

[RamdomChances]

they were what we call 'thieves.'

Mabye they were gay thieves

Seriously, I think chris is a pertty good mod, this branch of the forum get more than it fair share of sh1t, and stevens posts are usuall pretty good and well though out (have'nt read the ones about the ex's though) and he contributes to the forum in general not just here.

Mabye a bit longwinded at times

[Ijustwannateach]

[jdinasia]

:-) Thanks ... but if I were after attention I'd post 7 times a day.

I agree Chris is a great mod ... (again an observation is not a criticism though I can see where it might be implied.)

My posts will never pander to the "We farang have it so tough because all the Thai's are ____ (fill in the blank)"

And someone obviously needs to take a more balancing view of the farang here. Before the "Liars and Cheats" thread was closed due to some silliness about the only post to address the issue said in paraphrase it's fair because all the Thais lie. That's "rich" coming from someone that complains about people's honesty all the time.

I love my life in Thailand. I don't live in the gay ghetto. The Thai's I know aren't all hustling the farang. (In fact I only know one who has a "BF" overseas and still runs around.) I don't cry about "saving face" which would often be more accurately called either avoiding conflict, or avoiding impertinant questions.

There's a great place for people that can't adjust to life here! It's called "somewhere else!"

[Ijustwannateach]

You're putting a lot of words, most of which are not mine, in my mouth, and oversimplifying what I did actually say to the intentionally ridiculous extreme. I can only suggest you go back and read the words I have actually written. If you want to keep "paraphrasing" I guess you can make them mean anything you want to. I'm not going to debate you on what you incorrectly interpret my words to say, and I have not suggested any of the crude things you attribute to me. I will be happy to debate any verbatim quotations you'd like to post in context, but not these silly misrepresentations you're making up. I can see why you don't engage more in discussion on the board if this is your usual style.

As the sheep from Animal Farm used to say, "Thoughts good, slogans bad."

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

Qoute from Liars...

"Considering the amount of Thai lying that goes on via internet meeting rooms (and everywhere else), it's hard to be too surprised or that older farang guys are lying, too."<sic>

pretty clearly you expect Thai's to be honest and until then it's OK for farang to lie.

read your posts! It boggles the mind!

But it all boils down to not adjusting well imho.

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok... let's see... "the amount of Thai lying going on in Internet chat rooms"

To me, that seems to indicate that the Thais involved are on Internet gay chat- certainly a subset of "all Thais."

"and everywhere else"

This is hyperbolic, naturally- an exaggeration- you do know what those are? You know, like when you say "I was so angry I could have killed so-and-so" but you really don't mean you're going to kill them? Did you miss this class in elementary school?

Nonetheless, I contend that Thais, even in general, have a different attitude towards the truth than many from my (western) background do, especially when they want to save face, or a good opportunity suddenly comes along, or the truth is just not very flattering. Perhaps from a Thai perspective this is ok, but from my perspective it is called "lying." Considering the number of long-term residents who have noticed this (thanks to Kat for this line of reasoning) and frequently commented on it, I'd say that where there's smoke there's fire. I'm referring not only to relationship experiences, but also contact with Thais at work, in business, as students, in friendships, and in everyday life. I could list numerous examples, but I think they would fall on deaf ears here.

My reasoning for the farangs, continuing commentary on the quotation you picked, is along the lines of "turnabout is fair play," and I also contend that farangs by far get the worse end of the lying stick on Internet forums [as my poor friend who got mugged did].

My own adjustment is just fine, thanks! I draw the line at tolerating "lying" [especially about important things] as something that's ok for people I'm going to associate with closely, as do most of my long-time Thailand resident gay and straight farang friends. Fortunately, there are many Thais who are acceptably honest and decent (though will tell white lies, as everyone human will), and those are the ones my best friends here wind up dating for the long run- lucky them! My question at the moment is, can my ex- become one of those, or am I better off looking for another person?

Since you feel entitled to imply I should leave Thailand, I think it's only fair that I point out you seem to be a naive, foolish newbie who still has the "gawrsh, it's a wunnerful paradise" honeymoon syndrome common to such newbies here. It's only too bad that we have to deal with your relative inexperience and insecurity in such a publicly irritating way. Perhaps this thread should be closed just as quickly as your last one.

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

Ok... let's see... "the amount of Thai lying going on in Internet chat rooms"

To me, that seems to indicate that the Thais involved are on Internet gay chat- certainly a subset of "all Thais."

"and everywhere else"

This is hyperbolic, naturally- an exaggeration- you do know what those are?  You know, like when you say "I was so angry I could have killed so-and-so" but you really don't mean you're going to kill them?  Did you miss this class in elementary school?

Nonetheless, I contend that Thais, even in general, have a different attitude towards the truth than many from my (western) background do, especially when they want to save face, or a good opportunity suddenly comes along, or the truth is just not very flattering.  Perhaps from a Thai perspective this is ok, but from my perspective it is called "lying."  Considering the number of long-term residents who have noticed this (thanks to Kat for this line of reasoning) and frequently commented on it, I'd say that where there's smoke there's fire.  I'm referring not only to relationship experiences, but also contact with Thais at work, in business, as students, in friendships, and in everyday life.  I could list numerous examples, but I think they would fall on deaf ears here.

My reasoning for the farangs, continuing commentary on the quotation you picked, is along the lines of "turnabout is fair play," and I also contend that farangs by far get the worse end of the lying stick on Internet forums [as my poor friend who got mugged did].

My own adjustment is just fine, thanks!  I draw the line at tolerating "lying" [especially about important things] as something that's ok for people I'm going to associate with closely, as do most of my long-time Thailand resident gay and straight farang friends.  Fortunately, there are many Thais who are acceptably honest and decent (though will tell white lies, as everyone human will), and those are the ones my best friends here wind up dating for the long run- lucky them!  My question at the moment is, can my ex- become one of those, or am I better off looking for another person?

Since you feel entitled to imply I should leave Thailand, I think it's only fair that I point out you seem to be a naive, foolish newbie who still has the "gawrsh, it's a wunnerful paradise" honeymoon syndrome common to such newbies here.  It's only too bad that we have to deal with your relative inexperience and insecurity in such a publicly irritating way.  Perhaps this thread should be closed just as quickly as your last one.    

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Got it "Steven" or Johnnie or Peter .. or whatever. As verbose as you get; You still slag off on the Thai's and are easy on the farang. And wouldn't you know it ? Loe and behold! Your farang friends agree!

If spending over 3 years cumulatively and over a year here this trip makes me a newbie, then I guess I am! And that last thread was closed because of the silliness of some other guys ... similar to yours on "The Nature of ..."

My experience here is different than yours ! Most certainly! I am truly greatful for that. My BF here speaks English. Makes money. Owns his own condo (outright ... no mortgage). Has more spending money than I do. We have our issues around being direct. He'd rather make an excuse on occassion than to say "I don't want to do that." We deal with that.

Our friends are Dr's and DDS's and IT Pros and business owners. They DO NOT fit your gross generalizations in any way.

Possibly doing things differently might net you different results? But I bet instead of trying new things you'll sit in your coffeeshop and criticize how you see things.

You obviously see your posts as informative and as having precuationary value. I however see them as beating a stereotype to death. I also see them as a possible reason why there are not more Thai people posting on this board. Stereotypes exist because there are people that match that description. They are still not a valid reason to catagorize<sp?> a large portion of the population.

I was chatting with one of the mods in the chat room the other day and came to the conclusion that very often "str8 guys are smarter than gay guys" when it comes to dating in Thailand. They may pick up a girl in a bar or other party type place, but they date the ones with jobs, that are slightly older, and are reliable. Gay farang seem to go for the youngest prettiest guy they meet at a bar or other gay locale.

Maybe, just maybe, you get what you expect! You expect to get used and treated badly and that seems to be (from your posts) what you get.

I agree this thread should close and will ask Chris to close it (or the other Mod __ sorry I forget the name) as this has devolved into a pissing match. The intentions were to look at and possibly analyze a little of what goes on in here.

In closing, try and be more gracious to your hosts (the Thai people in general) and their way of life. Maybe read the primer I read before my first prolonged trip here in 1997. Culture Shock! Thailand. ((it's dated but could obviously help someone that expects Asia to be like the West))

Chok Dee

[kat]

So you've admittedly read one book and have a rich boyfriend and rich friends. People like you are just as tiresome as the people who complain all the time. You are a bully and thought dictator that should seek a job within the Ministry of Culture or TAT. You'd fit right in. Your indignant righteousness about widely acknowledged experiences and referenced cultural observations is about the same: tyrannical and disingenuous.

[kat]

"I was chatting with one of the mods in the chat room the other day and came to the conclusion that very often "str8 guys are smarter than gay guys" when it comes to dating in Thailand. "

Additional proof that you don't have a clue as to what your talking about.

[jdinasia]

Why Thanks Kat! Glad that some other vague guy (or girl) or whatever chimed in! Nice to know that someone else has "Steven"'s POV on Thai people.

Strangely I read up on your posts and you aren't all that unreasonable. So here's a challenge. Pull up Steven's posts from the gay people in Thailand ... particularly the topics he has started and see if they don't in your mind come off as more than just a bit stereotyping of thai gay men.

And as to Str8 guys being smarter than gay guys in dating. I know my share of older str8 guys that have been taken in ... however I know none that have been taken in twice. And younger guys are not so desperate as some of the older guys. They tend to expect more parity in their relationships.

As to my indignant righteousness. I bet you get all riled up with the descriptions and stereotypes of farang women in Thailand as all being bitter nasty neglected girls that pall in the light of beautiful friendly Thai women (read Mangosauce.com for tons of that crap). I get tired of the "They are all moneyboys to some extent or another" being applied to gay Thai men. I never told someone that they had to think or behave the way I do ... just that if they tried thinking and behaving differently they might just get different results.

But you are related to steven in at least one major way ... 400 posts in 5 months ! WOW! He's got you beat though ... you are only 2.5 a day every day for 5 months while he is 6.7 a day every day for his time here!

[tuky]

now now folks

we are all actually on the same side here, personal differences are what make us special as people. Lets not let them make us enemies, we are better than that.

I won't be closing this thread, but my good mate ChrisPy can if he likes. However I have a suspicion he may have a solution to this bickering.

Take it away ChrisPy

[jdinasia]

now now folks   

we are all actually on the same side here, personal differences are what make us special as people. Lets not let them make us enemies, we are better than that.

I won't be closing this thread, but my good mate ChrisPy can if he likes. However I have a suspicion he may have a solution to this bickering.

Take it away ChrisPy 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL ... please .. close it at anytime ;-)

after all ... my first observation (that blatantly included myself) is the only thing obvious about this thread now :-)

[JemJem]

I guess it is good that there have been only few posts of bigotry in here......that's something I really despise.

Of course there have been posts by bigots in here too....no need to name names as most of you possibly know which folks I am writing about.....some are regular posters in other threads of this forum, and some are one-time trolls (then again some of these one-time posters could actually be the regulars using a different user name). However it is good that the number of these has been low.

Some boards I have go into are a disgrace (eg. yahoo discussion ones)....full of racists, sexists, anti-gays and other bigots.

Cheers,

Jem

[kat]

Jdinasia:

Look, I get tired just talking to you. You obviously have a lot of energy and sense of social injustice. Not too long ago in my life, I would most likely have had identical reactions to yours. But if you are really going to live in the world with a commitment to making things better for people, you have to be able to stare down what is your truth, and what is everyone else's. And if you have a sense of responsibility, you will try to compare these observations to a wide variety of sources. Observing these differences does not make you a racist. On the contrary, I think people that try too hard to ignore or not speak about obvious differences simply make a choice not to talk about it. If silence is morally superior, then I choose not to throw in my lot with the silent majority - or whatever. However, if you don't think silence is morally superior, than you cannot attack people if they are making a responsible effort to share their experiences or observations. I think Steven has done so.

Jdinasia, I don't know about you, but I am a foreigner here. That means by nature, as a thinking person, I am going to analyze and compare differences. As someone who has worked on and researched the intersection of gender, tradition, and human rights, it is not enough to compare or explain, but I must understand why. I can assure you, the why would never get answered if people were not allowed to discuss differences, or were strictly controlled to only discuss differences that were agreeable and flattering. Respected Thai researchers and journalists don't even discuss Thai culture and history in that way, and no researcher or human rights advocate worth their intellect or integrity should.

Relationships, time, ethics, love, and truth are all defined by a different set of constructs in the West and East. Saying that this is cultural is almost an understatement, because we are talking about completely different civilizations. Because your truth has been different here, doesn't mean that other people's experiences are not true.

And since you checked over my posts, then yes, you should know that I'm a woman, and yes, I do have a problem with misogynists. I also have a problem with racism, oppression, and bigotry. But hatred and bigotry are not the same as observation or emotional and intellectual honesty. If you cannot tell the difference than you become a censor, rather than a discussant or even a thinker.

Thanks for the tip about what sites to read or where to do my research, but I have already been there. If you want to continue this discussion as a dialogue, rather than as an attack, I'd be more than happy to continue. I always welcome the opportunity to exchange thoughts and examine information, because there is always the chance to learn something new or even re-examine your own truths.

And yes, I agree, I think I do post too much here. I have been seriously considering leaving this forum over the next week. But then, if I had merely worried about the number of my posts, or pleasing everyone, rather than what I honestly want to say, I wouldn't be posting right now to you. There would then be no chance of a life-changing discussion. You obviously can't have it both ways, can you?