Bouddhism, Does hel_l And Heaven Exists Or Not?

[rockyysdt]

But if Buddhism is not a religion and Buddha is not a God, how do you explain that Buddhist monks are blessing people by wheeping them with a wet broom and delivering them from their sins? Or Buddhist monks performing all kind of rituals which are an exact copy of the Catholic rituals? Are all these actions only attributed to the Thai Buddhists and their "own" kind of Buddhism?

You'll find many of these rituals weren't taught by the Buddha and don't appear in Buddhist writings.

Humans are free to create a religion and call it Buddhism. If it's distorted with superstition and local custom, that doesn't make it Buddhism.

The first part of your reply was already explained by other posters.

But for the second part, this is totally new to me.

Every Thai believes that they are reborn from a previous life and they will be reborn after their death.

If they have been a good person in this life, they will come back as a better person.

If not, they will come back as a dog, a cat, or another creature according to their sins in their previous life.

Many Thais I know, will not feed or harbor a dog, a cat, or another animal as they were "bad persons" in a previous life".

Not on topic in this thread, but can you elaborate a little bit on this?

It doesn't matter what many Thais believe.

You'll find the consensus is that Buddhist writings indicate that the body and ego are impermanent.

You're not reincarnated, as you are impermanent, but the khama you create by your deeds is passed on or inherited by another.

As I said earlier, when you die, Buddhist or not, your body, mind, thoughts & feelings all expire.

Thus, according to you and many others, the Buddhism as applied by many Thai nationals has nothing to do with the Buddhist principals? That would explain the many superstitious beliefs of the Thais.

Yes. The distortions have nothing to do with Buddhism.

But which is the REAL Buddhism then?

Theravada Buddhism as followed by the Thai nationals is not the real Buddhism.

You'll find the superstitious stuff including amulets etc have nothing to do with Theravada Buddhism.

You should refer to the Thai Pali canon (Theravada Buddhist scriptures written in Pali ).

If rituals stray from these teachings then they are probably not REAL as you put it.

Every religion I know is man-made in the sense that we only know the bits-and-pieces that are presented to us by the leaders of every religion (including Buddhism).

As mankind allows his ego to control his actions there are many situations where distortion can occur.

The original Buddhism has been captured in the Pali Canon and is there for you to refer to.

It is easy to carry many misconceptions of Buddhism if you allow yourself to be influenced by practioners who call themselves Buddhists but have little knowledge themselves of the canon or its principals.

Buddhism is not a religion.

There are several states you'll find yourself in.

There's the unconscious state, dream state, conscious state with thought & conscious state without thought.

During meditation practice you develop the ability to experience a consciousness without thought. Removing the clutter of ego based thought from your conscious state allows you to experience an inner clarity and power which will lead you to actual experience of the essence of Buddhism.

Those who are stuck in the intellectual side of what Buddhism is or may not be miss the point.

Buddhism is all about actual personal experience not tradition and ritual.

Edited November 10, 2008 by rockyysdt

[garro]

But if Buddhism is not a religion and Buddha is not a God, how do you explain that Buddhist monks are blessing people by wheeping them with a wet broom and delivering them from their sins? Or Buddhist monks performing all kind of rituals which are an exact copy of the Catholic rituals? Are all these actions only attributed to the Thai Buddhists and their "own" kind of Buddhism?

You'll find many of these rituals weren't taught by the Buddha and don't appear in Buddhist writings.

Humans are free to create a religion and call it Buddhism. If it's distorted with superstition and local custom, that doesn't make it Buddhism.

The first part of your reply was already explained by other posters.

But for the second part, this is totally new to me.

Every Thai believes that they are reborn from a previous life and they will be reborn after their death.

If they have been a good person in this life, they will come back as a better person.

If not, they will come back as a dog, a cat, or another creature according to their sins in their previous life.

Many Thais I know, will not feed or harbor a dog, a cat, or another animal as they were "bad persons" in a previous life".

Not on topic in this thread, but can you elaborate a little bit on this?

It doesn't matter what many Thais believe.

You'll find the consensus is that Buddhist writings indicate that the body and ego are impermanent.

You're not reincarnated, as you are impermanent, but the khama you create by your deeds is passed on or inherited by another.

As I said earlier, when you die, Buddhist or not, your body, mind, thoughts & feelings all expire.

Thus, according to you and many others, the Buddhism as applied by many Thai nationals has nothing to do with the Buddhist principals? That would explain the many superstitious beliefs of the Thais.

Yes. The distortions have nothing to do with Buddhism.

But which is the REAL Buddhism then?

Theravada Buddhism as followed by the Thai nationals is not the real Buddhism.

You'll find the superstitious stuff including amulets etc have nothing to do with Theravada Buddhism.

You should refer to the Thai Pali canon (Theravada Buddhist scriptures written in Pali ).

If rituals stray from these teachings then they are probably not REAL as you put it.

Every religion I know is man-made in the sense that we only know the bits-and-pieces that are presented to us by the leaders of every religion (including Buddhism).

As mankind allows his ego to control his actions there are many situations where distortion can occur.

The original Buddhism has been captured in the Pali Canon and is there for you to refer to.

It is easy to carry many misconceptions of Buddhism if you allow yourself to be influenced by practioners who call themselves Buddhists but have little knowledge themselves of the canon or its principals.

Buddhism is not a religion.

There are several states you'll find yourself in.

There's the unconscious state, dream state, conscious state with thought & conscious state without thought.

During meditation practice you develop the ability to experience a consciousness without thought. Removing the clutter of ego based thought from your conscious state allows you to experience an inner clarity and power which will lead you to actual experience of the essence of Buddhism.

Those who are stuck in the intellectual side of what Buddhism is or may not be miss the point.

Buddhism is all about actual personal experience not tradition and ritual.

I found this to be a well thought-out reply rocky. The Buddhism that I follow is concerned with practice and not theoretical debate. I was attracted to Buddhism originally because I had already come to the same conclusions about the world without needing doctrine. In my understanding of Buddhism the idea of non-self makes the existence of heaven and hel_l a pointless debate.

I doubt that your reply will bring much satisfaction to the OP though as he seems more interested in his own replies than what anybody else thinks. I always have great difficulty trusting those who ask a question, but then fill their posts with their own opinions. Maybe I'm wrong. I enjoyed your post anyway.

Edited November 10, 2008 by garro

[coalminer]

Thanks for the clarification, rocky.

Please read below my remarks.

You'll find many of these rituals weren't taught by the Buddha and don't appear in Buddhist writings.

Humans are free to create a religion and call it Buddhism.

If it's distorted with superstition and local custom, that doesn't make it Buddhism.

It doesn't matter what many Thais believe.

You'll find the consensus is that Buddhist writings indicate that the body and ego are impermanent.

You're not reincarnated, as you are impermanent, but the khama you create by your deeds is passed on or inherited by another.

As I said earlier, when you die, Buddhist or not, your body, mind, thoughts & feelings all expire.

Yes. The distortions have nothing to do with Buddhism.

Theravada Buddhism as followed by the Thai nationals is not the real Buddhism.

You'll find the superstitious stuff including amulets etc have nothing to do with Theravada Buddhism.

You should refer to the Thai Pali canon (Theravada Buddhist scriptures written in Pali ).

If rituals stray from these teachings then they are probably not REAL as you put it.

As mankind allows his ego to control his actions there are many situations where distortion can occur.

The original Buddhism has been captured in the Pali Canon and is there for you to refer to.

It is easy to carry many misconceptions of Buddhism if you allow yourself to be influenced by practioners who call themselves Buddhists but have little knowledge themselves of the canon or its principals.

Buddhism is not a religion.

There are several states you'll find yourself in.

There's the unconscious state, dream state, conscious state with thought & conscious state without thought.

During meditation practice you develop the ability to experience a consciousness without thought. Removing the clutter of ego based thought from your conscious state allows you to experience an inner clarity and power which will lead you to actual experience of the essence of Buddhism.

Those who are stuck in the intellectual side of what Buddhism is or may not be miss the point.

Buddhism is all about actual personal experience not tradition and ritual.

Humans are not free to create a "religion" and give it the name they want.

Muslims have shown a few years ago what they do with Buddhist statues and other "religions" are not as peaceful as they claim to be.

But what is "distorted with superstition and local custom"?

Clausewitz wrote a few lines back that hel_l is indeed described in the Pali writings and disbelieving in hel_l relams iks considered a wrongview hat could lead one into hel_l.

Moreover, most people dont master the Pali language and need to rely on translations which carry many errors due to the translation or the writer.

If someone goes into a temple to learn Buddhism like many Thais and people from other countries do, how can they know if the practicioners (monks) have enough knowledge themselves and follow the principles of the Buddha without all the superstition and other beliefs.

As far as I could made from the answers in this thread, a Thai monk as mentor would be a major mistake.

I may miss the point of Buddhism, as I have no desire to be converted to any religion or belief.

But this thread has clarified a lot about the existence of heaven and hel_l and the distortions in the teachings of Buddha made by people who claim themselves to be "real" Buddhists.

Thank you for your time to write a well balanced response.

[Brucenkhamen]

I think the question that bothers Coalminer is when there are different interpretations out there how do we determine what should be considered "true Buddhism".

To me the answer is in looking at the Buddhas life. Did he spend his life worrying about how to avoid he// and get to hea\/en? Did he calculate how many good deeds and how much merit he needed to make? Did he practice rituals and superstitions to try to improve his luck in life?

No.

The story of his life is what inspires my practice and it's what rings true to me. He saw that there was suffering in the world and felt he had to do something about it, through his own efforts he came to a point of clarity and understanding that took him beyond that suffering. There is nothing in that that has anything to do with he// and hea\/en and it's existance or non existance.

Now today a large proportion of Thais prefer not to follow the Buddhas examples but prefer to follow rituals, superstitions, and make merit in order to avoid he// and get to hea\/en. Up to them.

There are a small proportion of Thai monks, teachers, and lay people who are inspired by the original story of the Buddha and seek to follow the same path he did. These Thais have helped to inspire my practice also.

I can certainly understand Coalminers annoyance in seeing a Buddhism prevailing in Thailand that doesn't align with the ideals the Buddhas life shows us. But I think in many ways asking whether he// and hea\/en exists in Buddhism is like asking whether he// and hea\/en exists in Origami, there may well be practitioners of Origami that believe in he// and hea\/en but we all know the purpose of Origami has nothing to do with he// and hea\/en.

[clausewitz]

Certainly traditional Theravada teachings in the Pali cannon are filled with desciptions of hells. In fact disbelieving in hel_l relams iks considered a wrongview hat could lead one into hel_l.

http://www.vipassana.info/130-devaduta-e.htm

Wait a minute clausewitz.

Are you pretending now that hel_l exists in Theravada Buddhism?

The figures in the Mall and the temples are displaying the situations as described in the the Theravada teachings?

Is this "hel_l" happening in actual life or after death?

Now I start to be confused ...

As humans we onlly see our own realm and that of the anilmal realm, hence,the hel_l realms are not to be seen during this life. As a human any pain we expereicne is minor and brief compared to that in hel_l. After death we will be born in any of the 32 planes of existence- and if kamma is of the type that conditions birth in hel_l, then hel_l it will be . The Theravada texts say there are many hells of varying levels of pain, and one may be be stuck there for anything from 7 days to millions of years. People on this thread may play down the importance of hel_l in the Teachings but they are an important part of Theravada.

[Brucenkhamen]

As humans we onlly see our own realm and that of the anilmal realm, hence,the hel_l realms are not to be seen during this life. As a human any pain we expereicne is minor and brief compared to that in hel_l. After death we will be born in any of the 32 planes of existence- and if kamma is of the type that conditions birth in hel_l, then hel_l it will be . The Theravada texts say there are many hells of varying levels of pain, and one may be be stuck there for anything from 7 days to millions of years. People on this thread may play down the importance of hel_l in the Teachings but they are an important part of Theravada.

It's possible that a literal interpreation of those scriptures is the correct interpretation, but I see no value in believing it is so when I have no evidence to support it. The practice of the Buddha's path is just as valid whether you take them literally or not.

[coalminer]

I found this to be a well thought-out reply rocky.

Rocky's reply was for sure one of the best replies I have read.

Unlike some others who wants to accuse the OP of being illiterate in Buddhism and thus the original question cannot be answered unless the OP would convert to Buddhism.

The Buddhism that I follow is concerned with practice and not theoretical debate. I was attracted to Buddhism originally because I had already come to the same conclusions about the world without needing doctrine. In my understanding of Buddhism the idea of non-self makes the existence of heaven and hel_l a pointless debate.

Somewhat in the same way of the thinking of my wife.

When she asked to drive a car and I asked her if she had a driver license, she responded "no".

So, I proposed her to learn the theoretical stuff first and after that she could do a driving test to get her license.

Her reply was "I'm not interested in the theoretical stuff and it is a complete waste of time to learn that stuff. I'm only interested in the practical stuff, the actual driving, and as 99% of the woman who drives a car, driving an automatic transmission car."

The reply from clausewitz that hel_l "is indeed described in the Pali writings and disbelieving in hel_l relams iks considered a wrongview hat could lead one into hel_l" is the most valid prove that your attitude can lead the wrong conception of Buddhism.

I doubt that your reply will bring much satisfaction to the OP though as he seems more interested in his own replies than what anybody else thinks. I always have great difficulty trusting those who ask a question, but then fill their posts with their own opinions. Maybe I'm wrong. I enjoyed your post anyway.

The OP, I, is interested in replies as given by Clausewitz, Rocky, and many others who gave very useful information about my original question and the relation of heaven and hel_l to Buddhsim as practisized by the Thais and Buddhist monks in Thailand.

Replies which are greatly accepted and add's a lot of better understanding of Buddhism and the Buddhism as practisized and teached by most Thais and Thai monks

Direct to the point without needing to include that the OP is illeterate in Buddhism and Buddhist matters while pointing out that the poster who claims this is himself not intersted in the theory of Buddhism.

Yes, you are wrong with your conclusions.

You should read the replies given by Clausewitz, Rocky, and other posters before making your conclusions.

Your own replies contained some very good and useful points and they have surel contributed to the thread.

But by claiming that the OP has "little or no knowledge of the Buddhist teachings and therefore cannot apprehend the meaning of heaven and hel_l" you show that your knowledge of Buddhism is rather low and your opinion about other people would be more in line with the Muslim teachings.

[coalminer]

As humans we onlly see our own realm and that of the anilmal realm, hence,the hel_l realms are not to be seen during this life. As a human any pain we expereicne is minor and brief compared to that in hel_l. After death we will be born in any of the 32 planes of existence- and if kamma is of the type that conditions birth in hel_l, then hel_l it will be . The Theravada texts say there are many hells of varying levels of pain, and one may be be stuck there for anything from 7 days to millions of years. People on this thread may play down the importance of hel_l in the Teachings but they are an important part of Theravada.

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So heaven and hel_l after our death does exist in (Theravada) Buddhism and they are actually described in the Pali writings.

Could it be that the Thais and the Thai monks are not as dwelling off the Buddhist path as many in this thread tries to state?

Many people on this thread have replied that "the importance of existence of hel_l is not important" in the teachings of Buddha, yet you say that they ARE IMPORTANT and you prove your point with a translation of the Pali writings".

The reply of may people on this thread is kind of like the reply from my wife in learning the driving theory (code) not being important to drive a car.

As you are the only one who have proved your point about the existence of heaven and hel_l in Buddhism with a translated script of the Pali writings, your reply is the most valid.

Can't wait to hear what others have to say about their view on this.

Thanks for posting this.

[coalminer]

I think the question that bothers Coalminer is when there are different interpretations out there how do we determine what should be considered "true Buddhism".

I can certainly understand Coalminers annoyance in seeing a Buddhism prevailing in Thailand that doesn't align with the ideals the Buddhas life shows us.

My initial question was if heaven and hel_l exists in Buddhism as I did see many expositions and temples displaying heaven and hel_l. Also, I have seen many rituals and superstitions carried out by Buddhist monks in Thailand which are related to heaven and hel_l. For clarification, I should maybe have precised that I was talking about Budhism in Thailand (Theravada). When phrasing my original question, I should maybe have specified also that I was looking for the existence of heaven and hel_l in Buddhism and not if it was important or not.

But as this thread evolved and most replies were stating that what I was seeing in Thailand had nothing to do with the "real" teachings of Buddha, this leads to the question "how do I know what true Buddhism is?" and "which Buddhist teaching are the real ones?".

The replies of Clausewitz made it clear that heaven and hel_l exists in the Pali writings which are the foundation of the theravada Buddhism, and moreover that disbelieving in them could lead one into hel_l. And he posted an extract of the translated Pali writings to prove that he was telling the truth.

So, I'm inclined to believe that many posters and therefore many Buddhist are only reading and accepting part of the teachings of Buddhism, The only part that suits them.

Kind alike the response of my wife that learning the treoretical was not needed to drive a car.

You are surely right when you write that I did become more confused (annoyed) by the contradictions of people who claims to be Buddhist in this thread.

After Clasuwitz postings, I'm not sure anymore if the Buddhism prevailing in Thailand isn't aligning with the teachings of Buddha.

Could it be that some practitioners are only interested in that part of Buddhism that suits them and leave the other part of Buddhism out of their teachings?

All this confirms again my view that all religions (including Buddhism) are man made and as such should be taken with lots of salt.

[Brucenkhamen]

Certainly traditional Theravada teachings in the Pali cannon are filled with desciptions of hells. In fact disbelieving in hel_l relams iks considered a wrongview hat could lead one into hel_l.

http://www.vipassana.info/130-devaduta-e.htm

I've had a look through that sutta and can't see anything that implies that disbelieving in literal "hel_l realms" is wrong view and can lead one into hel_l.

Could you please explain.

[Plus]

And after reading the replies in this thread, it seems that Buddhism has been tailored by the different communities and individualls to suit their needs.

Don't forget to include farang expats who post on Thaivisa - they have their needs, too, and they are all individuals so each poster has his own view of what Buddhism is or isn't.

I gave up on asking your sort of questions in this forum - you get a million contradictory replies, all given in supreme confidence. Wait until the trump card comes out - "It's not conductive to your developement", after that you'd know that you have become an annoyance to everyone (including yourself, mind you).

Make what you can out of it. Listen to Garro and Sabaijai, and Camerata, if he is around, these members usually know their stuff. Not to say that you should ignore everyone else. Clausewitz provided you with the most important quote, for example. You'll get a hang of it pretty soon, just try to fit in.

[garro]

Coalminer, if you read my responses you will see that I have nowhere asked you to convert to any religion or research the Buddhist cannon. As I pointed out earlier it was your lack of information coupled with your preconceived opinions which are making conversation difficult; at least for me. Lack of information is easily fixed, but as it has been frequently pointed out to you that all interpretations are just that. The Buddha seemed to want people to reach their own conclusions with him just offering skillful means of arriving at these conclusions.

I have always found when asking question to put my opinions aside as this gets in the way of hearing the answers. If I wait for the answer I want to hear it might just be a waste of my time. Sometimes there is no easy answer as understanding may be beyond limited human vocabulary. This is why the Buddha asked people to practice Buddhism rather than study it.

[rockyysdt]

Hi coalminer.

I think the answers, as Garro has indicated, can only be revealed to each of us in the form of first hand experience.

The Buddha gave instructions on certain behaviour, mindfulness and inward relection, designed to allow us overcome our ego which is a product of our environment.

By following these instructions you may come to a point (enlightenment) where you have actual experience and can answer your questions.

Except those who are enlightened, none of us really knows whether there is hel_l or heaven, life after death, reincarnation, a God, or whether we have a soul as none of us has had such an experience which can be recalled.

True Buddhism is the practice of selfless charity, mindfulness of your actions in daily life, and regular inward reflection (meditation).

Teaching those who wish to become enlightened should only involve these practices and should not include superstitious customs.

Until actual experience occurs everything else should be looked upon with sceptism as this is what the Buddha taught.

It has been said that those who reach enlightenment and know the answers will never circulate amongst us bragging about their achievement as such a state involves extinguishment of the ego.

Those who speak of heaven, reincarnation of the person, hel_l and other supernatural phenomena, whether they are monks or other, are going out on a limb if they have no personal experience.

I hope this helps you.

Coalminer.

I invite you to explore your inner self.

The self beyond your ego and the programming accumulated through life.

If you do this you may discover the real you which has always been there but we have all been too busy with our thoughts to actually experience.

The beauty of this, coalminer, is that what you discover will not be what I and others tell you.

The answer will come from within you.

Then you will know the truth as it will not be man made.

This is not a religion but an exercise which evetually allows you to see what is already there.

Edited November 11, 2008 by rockyysdt

[RedneckHippie]

How would it be possible for anything to exist but the infinite source? The only hel_l is experienced here on earth through the various forms of suffering.

[coalminer]

I think the answers, as Garro has indicated, can only be revealed to each of us in the form of first hand experience.

I have received a lot of answers on this question now, from different people, and Clausewitz was the only one who said that the Pali writings do indeed mention the existence of a heaven and hel_l, and he added a copy of the relevant part to prove his point.

Thus, heaven and hel_l exists undeniable in (Theravada) Buddhism writings as asked in my question.

The Buddha gave instructions on certain behaviour, mindfulness and inward relection, designed to allow us overcome our ego which is a product of our environment. By following these instructions you may come to a point (enlightenment) where you have actual experience and can answer your questions.

This would imply that one can only get an answer to the question after practicing Buddhism, which I not intend to do. Besides, Clausewitz already gave the answer and the prove.

Except those who are enlightened, none of us really knows whether there is hel_l or heaven, life after death, reincarnation, a God, or whether we have a soul as none of us has had such an experience which can be recalled.

The answer to the existence of a heaven and hel_l in the Pali writings has already been given by Clausewitz. If the other things as you write exists in Pali writings (life after death, reincarnation, a God, or whether we have a soul) is an open question and maybe Clausewitz can answer that question.

True Buddhism is the practice of selfless charity, mindfulness of your actions in daily life, and regular inward reflection (meditation). Teaching those who wish to become enlightened should only involve these practices and should not include superstitious customs.

That point has also been answered by many posters in this thread. Many people who call themselves Buddhists are anything but selfless charity and mindfulness of their actions.

Superstition is something that can be witnessed every day in Thailand and practised by Buddhist monks. But knowing that heaven and hel_l exists in Pali writings as proved by Clausewitz, the question which need to be asked is: "is believing in heaven and hel_l as mentioned in the Pali writings really superstition, and which other superstitious customs practised by Buddhist can be proven in the Pali writings?"

Until actual experience occurs everything else should be looked upon with sceptism as this is what the Buddha taught. It has been said that those who reach enlightenment and know the answers will never circulate amongst us bragging about their achievement as such a state involves extinguishment of the ego. Those who speak of heaven, reincarnation of the person, hel_l and other supernatural phenomena, whether they are monks or other, are going out on a limb if they have no personal experience.

Why are the Pali writings, the base of Theravada Buddhism, writing about the existence of heaven and hel_l and on the otherhand, according to you, should be looked upon with sceptism as teached by Buddha?

I hope this helps you.

Your post (and the answer of many others, including Garro) has been a great help in my quest to find the truth. Although some of the posts were not directly answering my question, they have been of unvaluable help in understanding the followers of Buddhism.

Coalminer.

I invite you to explore your inner self.

The self beyond your ego and the programming accumulated through life.

If you do this you may discover the real you which has always been there but we have all been too busy with our thoughts to actually experience.

The beauty of this, coalminer, is that what you discover will not be what I and others tell you.

The answer will come from within you.

Then you will know the truth as it will not be man made.

This is not a religion but an exercise which evetually allows you to see what is already there.

Rocky,

Thank you very much for the invitation, but as I already said in many responses, I do not wish to be converted to any man-made religion (including Buddhism).

I practice meditation (and Yoga) for over 30 years now and with satisfaction without being a Buddhist or whatever. Before a pacemaker was implanted in my body 10 years ago, I was able to control my heartbeat through meditation and I was able to descend to 25 heartbeats a minute. A state which gave me a feeling of well-being which cannot be described.

I have seen "the light at the other end of the tunnel" and "have seen my (dead) body lying on the operation table from above". The feeling at that moment cannot be described by human language.

But all these happenings did not stop me in my quest about religions.

Thanks again for your answer, Rocky.

Your insight in humans reach further than many other posters.

[RedneckHippie]

Coalminer,

It seems you are taking these things pretty literally, which is not their purpose....Religions at their core are tools to help lead you to experiences of egolessness, this is what I think at least. Why would you close yourself off to Buddhism? It has some great advice that is worth conceptually understanding, applying to your life and eventually understanding by experience. To me Buddhism is more a practical psychology to help people understand themselves better and see the delusions of the ego and the world, and this is what sets it apart from other religions, if you'd like to call it one....

You also said that you can only get the benefits from practicing buddhism, this I think is untrue. You could already have gained some of the fruits of buddhist practice and not realized that they were buddhism. Buddhism to me is just trying to lead you on a path to universal insights.

Edited November 11, 2008 by RedneckHippie

[Brucenkhamen]

I have received a lot of answers on this question now, from different people, and Clausewitz was the only one who said that the Pali writings do indeed mention the existence of a heaven and hel_l, and he added a copy of the relevant part to prove his point.

Thus, heaven and hel_l exists undeniable in (Theravada) Buddhism writings as asked in my question.

If that's all you wanted to know then perhaps you should have asked "Is hea\/en and he// mentioned in the Buddhist scriptures?".

This is of course what I was referring to as Buddhist mythology in my first post, and most people obviously understood your question as "Are hea\/en and he// real places that really exist?", of course the short answer to that is none of us know that for sure and we'd be fooling ourselves to say we did.

So you're satisfied you've got your answer now?

[Brucenkhamen]

Wait until the trump card comes out - "It's not conductive to your developement", after that you'd know that you have become an annoyance to everyone (including yourself, mind you).

It's hardly a trump card, all you have to do is explain how you think the topic in question IS conducive to practice.

[Brucenkhamen]

All this confirms again my view that all religions (including Buddhism) are man made and as such should be taken with lots of salt.

Correct, this is how the Buddha taught us to practice, and it aligns with his own life story which is why I consider it a valid part of scripture and not a later embellishment.

[garro]

I have re-read this whole thread and feel a bit bemused by the whole thing. I think that it would have been better titled 'Buddhism has a heaven and hel_l, please agree'.

I also find it strange the OP's continued persistence that he does not wish to be converted to any man made religion. Who is trying to convert him? Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less what religion he follows. Buddhist practice has been a great help in my life so I feel it a duty to provide the information if people ask, because it was there for me when I needed it.

I do not need the OP to become a Buddhist in order to confirm my beliefs as they have already been confirmed many times already. If nobody else following the Buddhist path I would still be on it. This is because it works for me. I was once a homeless drunk and now my life has completely turned around. I am a happy family man with two professions which are both in demand. I am a published writer with a large publishing house showing interest in my second book. Most importantly I have a calm mind and periods of peace which were not imaginable to me in the past. These claims are not meant 'to blow my own trumpet' or to suggest that Buddhist practice leads to material success, but to show as evidence that following the right path produces the right results. My compass in life is my peace of mind and not other people's views on my path.

Yes, Buddhism is a man made religion. It provides a guide to living which I know from experience works; at least for me. These Buddhist techniques are helping people around the world escape their own personal hells. I previously worked as a palliative care nurse and saw first hand how painful and frightening dying can be. If the OP really wants to know what hel_l is he can visit a hospice and see the frequent cases of young and not so young people begging not to die because they are so afraid and don't want to leave their loved ones behind. Buddhist based techniques such as Mindfulness-based Stress Reduction are having undeniably positive results with both pain and fear control. People with pain and fear do not have the luxury of theoretical debates, they just want the pain and fear to stop.

It is possible to make many conflicting arguments and conjectures from the vast literature of the Buddhist canon. Unless you speak Pali though you are dependent on somebody else to translate and even the best translators are in disagreement.

Edited November 11, 2008 by garro

[coalminer]

If that's all you wanted to know then perhaps you should have asked "Is hea\/en and he// mentioned in the Buddhist scriptures?".

My question was not only to have an answer if heaven or hel_L exists in Buddhism.

If your reread the question careful, you will notice that I wanted to know if the many expositions and superstitious rituals in Thailand could be based on writings in Theravada Buddhism or not.

Clausewitz gave the proof of the existence of heaven and hel_l and helped me to have a better understanding of the superstitious habits of a lot of Thai people.

This is of course what I was referring to as Buddhist mythology in my first post, and most people obviously understood your question as "Are hea\/en and he// real places that really exist?", of course the short answer to that is none of us know that for sure and we'd be fooling ourselves to say we did.

Your answers/replies have all been very useful to me, even if sometimes they were not an answer to my actual question.

I thought that my initial question was clear when people would carefully read it.

So you're satisfied you've got your answer now?

Yes and no.

I've got 1 direct and positive answer to my question if heaven and hel_l exists in Buddhism.

Thus some of the superstitions which are displayed frequently in Thailand by ordinary people and monks could be based on the Pali writings.

But this answer opens a second question which could be the object of another thread.

"The Pali writings which are the foundation of Theravada Buddhism mention the existence of a heaven and hel_l in our after life and are in direct contradiction with the teachings of Budha that we should only believe what we can experience in this life. Why are these "virtual places" included in the Pali writings when it is obvious that they are in contradiction with the teachings of Buddha?"

But rest assured, I will not start another thread about this question.

[garro]

Oh my goodness coalminer, as a hero of mine once said 'the compliments pass when the quality meet'.

Sorry, but I have wasted enough time on you.

Have a nice day.

[Brucenkhamen]

"The Pali writings which are the foundation of Theravada Buddhism mention the existence of a heaven and hel_l in our after life and are in direct contradiction with the teachings of Budha that we should only believe what we can experience in this life. Why are these "virtual places" included in the Pali writings when it is obvious that they are in contradiction with the teachings of Buddha?"

Believing in them blindly without proof is in contradiction to the advice of the Buddha, which is why many posters on this forum take this position, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Probably what it means is blind belief in itself is counterproductive and you can see evidence of that in fundamentalist religion. A blind belief that they don't exist at all could be equally counter productive.

As to why these realms are described so graphically in the Pali writings at all you need to remember that these were written 2500 years ago in India and that they were written using the terminology and context of the prevailing religious view of the time. I think in those days it was sort of expected that any religious writings should be peppered with descriptions of hells heavens angels and demons. Even though in this case the core teaching was a system of mental development rather than a mythology.

[coalminer]

As to why these realms are described so graphically in the Pali writings at all you need to remember that these were written 2500 years ago in India and that they were written using the terminology and context of the prevailing religious view of the time. I think in those days it was sort of expected that any religious writings should be peppered with descriptions of hells heavens angels and demons. Even though in this case the core teaching was a system of mental development rather than a mythology.

Thanks again for your well balanced response.

This is exactly what I try to say with "man-made" religions.

The Pali writings are apparently "peppered" with descriptions of hel_ls, heavens, angels and demons, etc. and the same time contradicting the core of the teaching of Buddha.

Off the hook and a personal question to you as you seem to have a deeper insight in Buddhism:

According to Clausewitz reply, a heaven and hel_l does exists in Thai Buddhism.

This heaven and hel_l is used/abused by the Thai monks apparently to let the people fear them and apparently to get more frequently visits from the people to their temple (donations).

How do you see this link between Thai monks using/abusing the Theravada writings to get the common people to fear the torments of an after life in hel_l versus the core of the teachings of Buddhism?

[Brucenkhamen]

How do you see this link between Thai monks using/abusing the Theravada writings to get the common people to fear the torments of an after life in hel_l versus the core of the teachings of Buddhism?

There is no link. People in power commonly use fear and superstition to control ordinary people, this is common in all religion and isn't unique to religion only. I think it's worse in Thailand though, Thailand is a culture of users and usees I think, you'll find some of the most kind hearted people and some of the most selfish people here.

The prevailing religion is just used as an excuse, one among many.

But among the kind hearted people of Thailand I've met, and read the teachings of, there are some wonderful people and good examples of the Buddhist ideal, if you were interested in looking into it further you could meet them too, but at least don't think that everywhere it's as bad as you've observed.

[AmeriThai]

This heaven and hel_l is used/abused by the Thai monks apparently to let the people fear them and apparently to get more frequently visits from the people to their temple (donations).

In some cases, that may be a possibility. In other cases though, I think it may be a way to grab the attention of those who need it to make a change in their life. There have been mentions about hel_l on Earth. But I don't think that's what's being discussed, but rather planes of existence in the afterlife: heaven (Sawan) and hel_l (narok).

I'm not a Buddhist, but my wife is. We watched a CD about a Thai guy who went to hel_l when he died. The movie was a semi-instructional type, but with acting. The point of it was that hel_l is a place of torture and torment with the idea of helping the guy understand what he did wrong in life. Once he realized it, then he was forgiven and returned to be reborn and live on the right path. Sort of sounds like reincarnation to me.

Here are some depictions, but they seem a bit too commercialized to me. While it's not a pleasant view, it might be the kind of view some people need.

http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php/2005/0...recepts?blog=23

http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php/2005/0..._heaven?blog=23

Although I'm no expert on the subject, some of the Thais I know seem to feel there is a hel_l for wrong doers. My wife feels certain her parents are in heaven. I don't know about how such subjects are covered in Buddhist texts, but it's not unusual to find Animistic and Brahmanistic beliefs and practices blended in with Buddhism in Thailand. Age old traditions aren’t so easily discarded. That’s true with any religion.

And like any religion, you'll find the practice can have variations in different areas around the world. Those variations don't have anything to do with Buddhism, but are part of the culture of the region. The same thing is true with other religions around the world. That's why in Thailand, for example, you'll find religious amulets, lucky numbers, magical writings, Buddha footprints, and raising social status based on deeds and donations (especially cash). The more you give, the better you are.

I'm not so sure the Buddha intended to start a religion. The same is true for the beginnings and inspirations of any major religion. What I gather is that he was searching for real meaning in life. He found a method that worked for him and understandably wanted to let other people know about his discoveries from the experiences and views he had. Organized religions often have a nasty habit of making simple concepts for living rather frustrating and complicated. But if you can overlook that, then there are some good ideas on making the most out of achieving a satisfactory life. The same holds true with other religions. Some people need extra guidence to achieve their goals, and others don't. In the end though, people are individuals who can choose their own decisions on which path is the right path. It's not always going to be the same for every person. What works for one person might not work in the exact same way for someone else. Although we all need a little help and guidence in life, we still, each one of us, have our own path to walk.

[coalminer]

This heaven and hel_l is used/abused by the Thai monks apparently to let the people fear them and apparently to get more frequently visits from the people to their temple (donations).

In some cases, that may be a possibility. In other cases though, I think it may be a way to grab the attention of those who need it to make a change in their life. There have been mentions about hel_l on Earth. But I don't think that's what's being discussed, but rather planes of existence in the afterlife: heaven (Sawan) and hel_l (narok).

I'm not a Buddhist, but my wife is. We watched a CD about a Thai guy who went to hel_l when he died. The movie was a semi-instructional type, but with acting. The point of it was that hel_l is a place of torture and torment with the idea of helping the guy understand what he did wrong in life. Once he realized it, then he was forgiven and returned to be reborn and live on the right path. Sort of sounds like reincarnation to me.

Here are some depictions, but they seem a bit too commercialized to me. While it's not a pleasant view, it might be the kind of view some people need.

http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php/2005/0...recepts?blog=23

http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php/2005/0..._heaven?blog=23

Although I'm no expert on the subject, some of the Thais I know seem to feel there is a hel_l for wrong doers. My wife feels certain her parents are in heaven. I don't know about how such subjects are covered in Buddhist texts, but it's not unusual to find Animistic and Brahmanistic beliefs and practices blended in with Buddhism in Thailand. Age old traditions aren't so easily discarded. That's true with any religion.

And like any religion, you'll find the practice can have variations in different areas around the world. Those variations don't have anything to do with Buddhism, but are part of the culture of the region. The same thing is true with other religions around the world. That's why in Thailand, for example, you'll find religious amulets, lucky numbers, magical writings, Buddha footprints, and raising social status based on deeds and donations (especially cash). The more you give, the better you are.

I'm not so sure the Buddha intended to start a religion. The same is true for the beginnings and inspirations of any major religion. What I gather is that he was searching for real meaning in life. He found a method that worked for him and understandably wanted to let other people know about his discoveries from the experiences and views he had. Organized religions often have a nasty habit of making simple concepts for living rather frustrating and complicated. But if you can overlook that, then there are some good ideas on making the most out of achieving a satisfactory life. The same holds true with other religions. Some people need extra guidence to achieve their goals, and others don't. In the end though, people are individuals who can choose their own decisions on which path is the right path. It's not always going to be the same for every person. What works for one person might not work in the exact same way for someone else. Although we all need a little help and guidence in life, we still, each one of us, have our own path to walk.

You took the words out of my mouth, AmeriThai.

Thanks for your input in this thread.

[Plus]

The Pali writings are apparently "peppered" with descriptions of hel_ls, heavens, angels and demons, etc. and the same time contradicting the core of the teaching of Buddha.

Off the hook and a personal question to you as you seem to have a deeper insight in Buddhism

Bruceinkamen has deeper insight in Buddhism than writers of Pali Canon?!?!?!

And Bruce swallows it without a blink.

You people are unbelievable.

[Brucenkhamen]

Bruceinkamen has deeper insight in Buddhism than writers of Pali Canon?!?!?!

And Bruce swallows it without a blink.

You people are unbelievable.

I gave the guy a bit more credit than that, and didn't interpret that those 2 sentences as saying that I had a deeper insight than the Pali Canon, sarcastic or otherwise.

Do i need to dissect every post I reply to for potential double meanings?

[Plus]

I see that somehow the OP got convinced that Pali canon contradicts core teachings of Buddha, thanks to members with "deeper insight" like Brucekamen and probably some others.

That should be the end of discussion to salvage at least some common sense here.

Do i need to dissect every post I reply to for potential double meanings?

No, but a little modesty wouldn't hurt even such an advanced sage as you.