Some Chiang Mai Residents Disagree With New Town Planning

[george]

Some Chiang Mai residents disagree with new town planning

CHIANG MAI: -- Chiang Mai municipality, one of Thailand's top tourist destinations in the north, is to change its appearance with planned road extensions as part of new town planning. Some local residents have come out to oppose the plan though, saying it could ruin their community environment.

An owner of a roadside house in Thapae business area in Chiang Mai municipality is worried her house area might be expropriated for the road extension when the new town plan is put in effect.

The department of public works and town and country planning plans to extend 30 roads in the municipality to serve the growing number of vehicles. However, local residents said the road extensions would not solve the problem, but simply add to a declining quality of life by destroying neighbourhoods and historical sites in the community.

"In the morning, monks must cross the road to receive alms. The road extensions come with speeding cars. Air pollution from exhaust fumes will be aggravated as the city is surrounded by mountains," said Srisuda Chawachart, a local resident.

"Road extensions are not a long-term solution to the traffic problem. Many roads and elevated highways in Bangkok have not solved Bangkok's traffic congestion," said Pranom Tansukhanun, a local resident.

Meanwhile, real estate business executives think the land zoning under the new town planning is not practical. They say the "Green Area" zone is categorized for rural and farming areas, and will not allow land development. Development will be focused only in town. They are prepared to take legal action to oppose the new town planning.

Ring roads were built out of town to serve the urban expansion but these areas are classified under the new town planning as Yellow and Green area zones where urbanization is not allowed.

Officials from the department of public works and town and country planning declined to be interviewed but insisted the new town planning was necessary. Local residents who will be affected by the new town planning can file complaints with the town planning development committee.

For example, Wat Ket community in Chiang Mai munipality called for an amendment to the town planning to change the community from commerce and township zoning to a residential conservation area. Their demands were accepted and the road extension was cancelled.

-- TNA 2008-11-14

[Sathip2008]

Yes, something really needs to be done, 'cause if this "Pharaonic" project is implemented, it will mean the end of Chiang Mai, simply... Do the authorities realize that ?

As expats and guests here, there's not much we can do, so it means that the Thai people who'll be affected by this project (around 80% of CM's population...) MUST move their asses NOW and get organized.

Once again, the "MAI PEN RAI" mentality is destroying a part of this beautiful country, truly sad

[femi fan]

I think this is a suitable thread to add that there is again on the agenda a proposal to cut down all the magnificent tall trees on the chiang mai to lamphun road to make the road wider.

These trees have spent maybe 200 years growing to their magnificent spectacle, and the thought of humans beings proposing to cut them down boggles my mind. There was a plan to do this a few years ago, but residents put up a fight and stopped the plan. But now certain politicians, whoever they are, have brought the plan back onto the agenda. It seems more horrifying to me than the murder of hundreds of people.

[Ulysses G.]

I think this is a suitable thread to add that there is again on the agenda a proposal to cut down all the magnificent tall trees on the chiang mai to lamphun road to make the road wider.

These trees have spent maybe 200 years growing to their magnificent spectacle, and the thought of humans beings proposing to cut them down boggles my mind. There was a plan to do this a few years ago, but residents put up a fight and stopped the plan. But now certain politicians, whoever they are, have brought the plan back onto the agenda. It seems more horrifying to me than the murder of hundreds of people.

I don't know you and I have not spent any time looking over your old posts, but I agree that Thai people destroy trees much too easily.

However, I feel that I also need to point out that your statement that killing trees is more horrifying to you than "killing hundreds of humans", makes you sound like a tree-hugging lunatic and does not help to draw sympathy to your cause.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Asmerom]

Yes, something really needs to be done, 'cause if this "Pharaonic" project is implemented, it will mean the end of Chiang Mai, simply... Do the authorities realize that ?

As expats and guests here, there's not much we can do, so it means that the Thai people who'll be affected by this project (around 80% of CM's population...) MUST move their asses NOW and get organized.

Once again, the "MAI PEN RAI" mentality is destroying a part of this beautiful country, truly sad

As a newcomer I know nothing of the town plans but from what I have read here it would seem the planners are still living in the 1950's when the car was paramount. More cars, more roads, more pollution,more inconvenience for the forgotten pedestrian. The old era when the car was King.

Do the Chiang Mai planners know nothing of pedestrian precincts, roads closed to traffic to allow the pedestrian untroubled access? Judging by the almost total ignoring of pedestrian crossings I guess not. The pedestrian is still the long suffering underdog. How terribly old-fashioned.

When I first came ,I was looking forward to exploring the old town of Chiang Mai and taking many pleasant walks around the town,but the polluted air and the appalling traffic makes that prospect practically impossible.Its certainly an unpleasant experience. I really couldn't recommend Chiang Mai as a tourist destination for that reason alone. If you want to come to North Thailand find somewhere more respectful of the pedestrian, or with fewer cars. Which reminds me, I must buy one of those face masks which are so prevelant , to avoid at least some of the toxic gases which must otherwise be curtailing the lives of Chiang Mai residents.

[sylviex]

Yes, something really needs to be done, 'cause if this "Pharaonic" project is implemented, it will mean the end of Chiang Mai, simply... Do the authorities realize that ?

As expats and guests here, there's not much we can do, so it means that the Thai people who'll be affected by this project (around 80% of CM's population...) MUST move their asses NOW and get organized.

Once again, the "MAI PEN RAI" mentality is destroying a part of this beautiful country, truly sad

As a newcomer I know nothing of the town plans but from what I have read here it would seem the planners are still living in the 1950's when the car was paramount. More cars, more roads, more pollution,more inconvenience for the forgotten pedestrian. The old era when the car was King.

Do the Chiang Mai planners know nothing of pedestrian precincts, roads closed to traffic to allow the pedestrian untroubled access? Judging by the almost total ignoring of pedestrian crossings I guess not. The pedestrian is still the long suffering underdog. How terribly old-fashioned.

Yes, I am afraid so.

I read somewhere -- just the other day -- that Thailand was leading the world with development of "green cars".

I think the old city and certain other areas should be closed to vehicle traffic, other than public transport (like the electric "buses" used at Chiang Mai University). Make bicycles available, too. Other major cities have done this -- why not CM ?

Edited November 15, 2008 by sylviex

[cmsally]

Personally, I think Chiang Mai to a large extent has lost the plot. If you live in the centre of Chiang Mai you will probably know that a large number of the real residents have moved out to outlying areas. They generally see it as becoming less liveable.

More investors take over whether renting or buying, and their primary interest is not to create a place that is desirable to live.

However when it comes to central Chiang Mai, really the only thing they can invest in is tourism and some of these people don't seem to have enough brain cells to realise that the qualities that attract tourists are often the same as those that attract residents.

[Mapguy]

Face it, fitting 21st century transportation habits into a 600-year-old city is a huge challenge.

What is happening in Chiang Mai, otherwise, is a classic example of post-industrial urban growth in a "tourist city." There are actually fewer problems to deal with than in most; for example, those who had heavy urban industrialization, which has never been a real problem here. Whatever...

Back to transportation....

There was a very elaborate transportation plan with all sorts of "modern" alternatives drawn up a few years ago. I believe subways were even part of it! Even lately (last three years or so), I have heard tell of "light rail" for Chiang Mai, which except in very limited form seems a ludicrous idea.

Cutting it short, I just want to suggest that solutions might be cheaper and more amenable than you expect. Although it will not take care of traffic on the old Chiang Mai - Lamphun Road (and similar commuter feeding routes which are truly horrendous but still necessary during "rush hours"), there are ways of controlling traffic "internally" in the city ( functional muang, not necessarily the geographically political entity, which is weird in its boundaries) No place for a full plan here, but what about parking areas around the core city with electric trolleys as already used at the university? I would not necessarily exclude taxis, et cetera or appropriate-use vehicles. But even truck deliveries can be limited to certain hours.

[db1tau]

How can they think bigger roads will solve any problem? I don't even see a big traffic problem around the moat... ok there are traffic jams, but that is normal. One problem I can see is Huay Kaew Road, especially the rincome intersection. But making the roads bigger wouldn't improve anything. The main problem are the traffic lights, that are red for an incredible long time.

Well I guess they already tried out other solutions than the 4 phase switch and they were even worse? Like green light only for the traffic that is going straight on but in both directions... traffic turning right gets green only every second time.

They really should prioritize motorbikes and bicycles by switching the lights more often.

I saw in that plan, that they want to extend the canal road? I really don't see any problem here, even for cars. The only hotspots are (again) the trafficlights near the university.

Well an underpass under the airport would be nice ;-)

[Sathip2008]

The solution is very simple indeed : DISCIPLINE. Thai drivers' lack of discipline AND laziness is probably a big part of the traffic's problems in CM.

How many times have I seen a small soi or a road blocked because some brainless idiots were parking their SUV or Pick Up nearly in the middle of the way, just because they were too lazy to park 50-100 M away, even too lazy to step out of their car to buy their noodles at their favourite food stall... Discipline, education...

One solution would be to limit the cars in CM, like in big cities in Japan : You live IN the city (not commuter) and you want to buy a car ? If you can prove you have a place to park it, ok; if you don't, well you're not allowed to buy it.

And - I know many people will disagree with me - one of the major problem when it comes to traffic and pollution is the RED SONGTHAEWS : Sure they are useful, but there are TOO MANY and most of them are antediluvian piece of ****. Plus they stop wherever they want, don't give a **** about the traffic lights and other basic traffic rules, thus they are a REAL danger for the others, especially bikes and pedestrians.

During my holidays I spent some time checking this :

I went to Moon Muang, Hua Kaew, Tha Pae, CM-Lamphun and Chang Khlan. At all those streets, between 8 am - 9 am and 4 pm - 6 pm, 75% of the songthaews I saw were EMPTY, 20% had 1 up to 5 passengers and 5% were full... One morning, riding my bike, I counted 24 EMPTY Songthaews between Naowarat Bridge and Tha Pae Gate... Conclusion ?

[cmsally]

The solution is very simple indeed : DISCIPLINE. Thai drivers' lack of discipline AND laziness is probably a big part of the traffic's problems in CM.

How many times have I seen a small soi or a road blocked because some brainless idiots were parking their SUV or Pick Up nearly in the middle of the way, just because they were too lazy to park 50-100 M away, even too lazy to step out of their car to buy their noodles at their favourite food stall... Discipline, education...

One solution would be to limit the cars in CM, like in big cities in Japan : You live IN the city (not commuter) and you want to buy a car ? If you can prove you have a place to park it, ok; if you don't, well you're not allowed to buy it.

And - I know many people will disagree with me - one of the major problem when it comes to traffic and pollution is the RED SONGTHAEWS : Sure they are useful, but there are TOO MANY and most of them are antediluvian piece of ****. Plus they stop wherever they want, don't give a **** about the traffic lights and other basic traffic rules, thus they are a REAL danger for the others, especially bikes and pedestrians.

During my holidays I spent some time checking this :

I went to Moon Muang, Hua Kaew, Tha Pae, CM-Lamphun and Chang Khlan. At all those streets, between 8 am - 9 am and 4 pm - 6 pm, 75% of the songthaews I saw were EMPTY, 20% had 1 up to 5 passengers and 5% were full... One morning, riding my bike, I counted 24 EMPTY Songthaews between Naowarat Bridge and Tha Pae Gate... Conclusion ?

Hear, hear! Couldn't agree more. Near to where I live it has suddenly become the rage to redo a piece of property, turn what used to be parking into courtyard/lawn etc and then park on the street and block the soi 24/7. It shouldn't be allowed.

Or building something that simply leaves no room for parking - wonder how they received approval for that

[Sathip2008]

wonder how they received approval for that

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[cmsally]

wonder how they received approval for that

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Hah , you don't say

Anyone know if there are any protests against road expansion coming up, as it is only a few days until the 18th.

[Paagai]

During my holidays I spent some time checking this :

I went to Moon Muang, Hua Kaew, Tha Pae, CM-Lamphun and Chang Khlan. At all those streets, between 8 am - 9 am and 4 pm - 6 pm, 75% of the songthaews I saw were EMPTY, 20% had 1 up to 5 passengers and 5% were full... One morning, riding my bike, I counted 24 EMPTY Songthaews between Naowarat Bridge and Tha Pae Gate... Conclusion ?

Conclusion is it supports the well known fact that the Songthaew owners/drivers have a strong politically motivated/backed union/organisation/mafia that is protecting their interests. My understanding is that's why we have almost no meter taxis, a dismal bus service and no motorcycle taxis in CM. Apparently they can only get a licence for a new meter taxi if they scrap a Songthaew first; as you can tell by the number of red wrecks on the road that doesn't happen too frequently. Get used to it as its not going to change anytime soon.

Looking at some of the proposed plans (links from a related thread on this forum) it appears, if I've understood it correctly, they want to build a new 20 M highway from the Siri Mangkalachan/Huey Kaew intersection through to Rajapat University at Chotanna and on past Kamtieng, over the river and on to Ratanakosin/Thung Hotel. Like an inner ring road, and in my opinion a very sensible solution as most of the route passes largely empty land and would make a significant difference to traffic on the Superhighway, Huaykeaw and Northern moat routes.

However, part of the route is through Santitham/Thanin area which has seen a lot of new development recently. It's hard to tell precisely from their plan, but the route would pass through, or very close to several major new buildings, including some 8 story condos e.g. Santitham Plaza, Noppakao place and Viangbua mansion, as well as many smaller new condos/shop houses and Thanin market. Are they serious about this? Knocking down some of the 40+ year old concrete monstrosities around Thanin would probably be a good thing (unlike other areas there is not much old world heritage to preserve here), but demolition of brand new buildings would be madness wouldn't it?

Of course, one may ask if the road plans been several years in gestation, how some of these developments were allowed in the first place, but I think we know the answer to that.........

[lannarebirth]

As far as I can tell, the most profitable enterprise in Chiang Mai is the Kad Suan Kaew parking garage . 10Baht per entry, all day long.

I think they need to make more parking garges throughout the city and maybe local merchants could "validate" to get fee waived. I would not be in favor of any street widenings, ESPECIALLY in central areas, if those changes weren't linked to a removal of all song taews, NO on street parking, and a dedicated mass transit lane.

Edited November 16, 2008 by lannarebirth

[cmsally]

Logic says that it would be cheaper to move parts of universities and schools (which are responsible for a lot of the congestion) out of town. What they are proposing is to funnel congestion into the city, it is not a workable solution.

Step 1 would be to fund school buses for each city centre school/college

Step 2 would be to phase out new licenses for red songtaews

These 2 things alone should bring about some change.

[PeaceBlondie]

These comments, including the last comment by Paagai, remind me of Austin, Texas in the 1980's. Adamantly opposed to freeways for forty years, the locals refused to even consider using the law to designate future superhighways around the edges of town that had been overgrown with development. When they finally faced the inevitable and built new roads, they had to spend US$500 MILLION just to acquire the right of way, which included tearing down new 5 and 10 story buildings.

Chiang Mai has 700 years of heritage, and they want to build super highways in the old city? Stupid.

[Sathip2008]

Conclusion is it supports the well known fact that the Songthaew owners/drivers have a strong politically motivated/backed union/organisation/mafia that is protecting their interests. My understanding is that's why we have almost no meter taxis, a dismal bus service and no motorcycle taxis in CM. Apparently they can only get a licence for a new meter taxi if they scrap a Songthaew first; as you can tell by the number of red wrecks on the road that doesn't happen too frequently. Get used to it as its not going to change anytime soon.

Unfortunately you're right, a lost cause I'm afraid, yes...

[Sathip2008]

Step 1 would be to fund school buses for each city centre school/college

Step 2 would be to phase out new licenses for red songtaews

Totally agree

[cmsally]

Step 1 would be to fund school buses for each city centre school/college

Step 2 would be to phase out new licenses for red songtaews

Totally agree

Step 3 Get my husband elected as mayor, so I can have vicarious rule of Chiang Mai

PS Already warned him we won't be getting rich from it.

Edited November 16, 2008 by cmsally

[StevieH]

Hah , you don't say

Anyone know if there are any protests against road expansion coming up, as it is only a few days until the 18th.

i'd be interested to know if there are any protests planned, though granted the opposition of a farang living here probably wouldn't carry much clout. it would be sad to see modern, western-style road expansion spoil this beautiful city. the problem with chiang mai is most definitely not the roads themselves but the weight of traffic on them and the behaviour of that traffic. altering the roads themselves and messing up people's lives rather than addressing the traffic issue itself seems very selfish and frankly foolish.

[cmsally]

Hah , you don't say

Anyone know if there are any protests against road expansion coming up, as it is only a few days until the 18th.

i'd be interested to know if there are any protests planned, though granted the opposition of a farang living here probably wouldn't carry much clout. it would be sad to see modern, western-style road expansion spoil this beautiful city. the problem with chiang mai is most definitely not the roads themselves but the weight of traffic on them and the behaviour of that traffic. altering the roads themselves and messing up people's lives rather than addressing the traffic issue itself seems very selfish and frankly foolish.

Actually I disagree with you. If there is a protest, especially in form of meeting with relevant Tesabahn figures, I think that some farang butts on the chairs would in fact make some people sit up and take notice. Talking ones would be even better.

[Paagai]

Hah , you don't say

Anyone know if there are any protests against road expansion coming up, as it is only a few days until the 18th.

i'd be interested to know if there are any protests planned, though granted the opposition of a farang living here probably wouldn't carry much clout. it would be sad to see modern, western-style road expansion spoil this beautiful city. the problem with chiang mai is most definitely not the roads themselves but the weight of traffic on them and the behaviour of that traffic. altering the roads themselves and messing up people's lives rather than addressing the traffic issue itself seems very selfish and frankly foolish.

Actually I disagree with you. If there is a protest, especially in form of meeting with relevant Tesabahn figures, I think that some farang butts on the chairs would in fact make some people sit up and take notice. Talking ones would be even better.

Having looked in more detail at the plan (From Cmsally's post here)

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2320350

I'm not sure I totally agree with some of the sentiments in that thread and the need to protest. From cmsally's original post in that thread it appeared they were going to re-develop the whole of Tapae and Chang Moi roads, leading to increased traffic around the moat and destroying historic areas like Tapae gate. From the plan, as I understand it, the effect is more likely the opposite, i.e to keep the traffic away from the moat and the old city. Surely this is good?

The plan does not show ANY road developments in the old city, moat, or roads leading up to these (except for around Huay Kaew) and the widening of both Thapae and Chang Moi is actually only over a shorter section close to the river. As I see it the effect of the plan is to create two new loops between the moat and the superhighway which will take traffic away from both, and especially remove the tendency for anyone going anywhere in the city to have to go around the moat. It should also reduce traffic on Thapae and Chang Moi closer to the moat.

Yes, sure there will be buildings demolished and livelihoods interfered with, but the main sections of road involved, in my opinion are not blessed with much in the way of architectural beauty - its mainly old, ugly concrete buildings that would be affected. Widening the night bazzar section of Changklan might be contentious, but there's not much historic stuff there either. Charoen Prathet nearer the river may be more of an issue.

The real problem for Chiang Mai's roads over the last ten years has been the increase in vehicles due to Thais being able to purchase them on credit, growth in which is likely to slow, at least for the next year or two. Nevertheless, some action to prevent the city from choking to death is essential. I know I will get heckled for saying this, but, in my opinion the plan makes a reasonable compromise between maintaining the old city and adressing traffic issues. Whatever they do, it will be on sombody's doorstep and someone won't like it.

That said, more detail and transparency is needed, and I accept it will take a lot of protesting to get that! Unfortuately, as Farangs don't have a vote in elections here I doubt Farang opinions will make any difference.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Paagai

[Greenside]

Making inner city traffic access easier has been proven to be a very short term fix and although planners in the early part of last half of the 20th century could perhaps be slightly forgiven for not truly appreciating the consequences of road widening, red routes, increased parking and the like there is simply no excuse for developing countries to make the same mistakes. No policies other than those designed to discourage people bringing cars into city centres will ever work and for those places such as Bangkok where it's been out of hand for years, some kind of congestion zone with the income ring fenced for the improvement of public transport seems to be a solution that has proven itself in London, amongst other places.

I have to admit that this thread plus reports of the imminent collapse of the UK pound, now at a point where I have to question the viability of staying anywhere I can't even hope to get much of a job, has made me profoundly depressed - not something I'm used to being, here in Thailand. I was already feeling somewhat pi**ed off yesterday at the wilful destruction of two beautiful trees in my neighbour's garden. Despite the fact that they were situated right on the edge of the land, provided very good shade and are worth quite a lot of money as transplants, she just had some guys come in with machetes and hack them down in the mistaken belief that it will make her land more valuable.

The only slighty brighter part of the story was that in felling one of three fairly spindly and worthless trees, they managed to bring it crashing down on a neighbour's roof. No casualties, just red faces and some traded insults. Oh well, small things.......

Edited November 16, 2008 by Greenside

[sylviex]

Found the article: Thailand leads way in making 'green' cars Peter Alford | November 12, 2008

Article from: The Australian THERE is a fast-emerging Asia-Pacific "green car" manufacturing centre, the brainchild of a government intent on transforming its vehicle industry..

It is in Thailand, Southeast Asia's most important carmaking centre, developed virtually from scratch in 15 years.

Next year, Toyota Thailand will begin producing Camry hybrids, the carmaker's third foreign manufacturing site for hybrid vehicles, a year before Australian taxpayer-subsidised Camrys begin production in Victoria.

The Thai industry is larger, more modern and far more export-focused than Australia's.

Thailand's "eco-car" project has been in planning and development for five years. It also has firm commitments from the three big Japanese manufacturers -- Toyota, Honda and Nissan -- plus Volkswagen, Mitsubishi and Suzuki. India's Tata Motors recently denied reports it was backing out.

The approved or pending eco-carmakers have committed to investments totalling 66 billion baht ($2.8 billion), with the first vehicles in production by 2010.

To qualify for the generous duty and sales tax exemptions, and eight-year income tax "holiday" attached to the eco-car project, the new vehicles must have engines smaller than 1.3l, achieve fuel consumption of 20km/l and emit less than 120g/km of carbon dioxide.

The makers are required to invest at least five billion baht and be producing 100,000 units by their fifth year of operations.

These carmakers have agreed to the tough specifications not because of the attractions of the domestic market, though annual sales of locally-produced new cars in Thailand are almost twice Australia's, but because of the Thai industry's already-proven export strengths.

Thailand's domestic market buys about 620,000 locally-built vehicles annually, compared with 320,000 in Australia, and exports will boost total production this year to about 1.4 million units.

Thailand's vehicle export industry, which is one of the most important markets for Australian component makers, began almost by accident a little more than a decade ago.

The 1997-98 Asian financial crisis, which blasted Thailand's previously booming economy, caught several international manufacturers with brand-new production facilities but suddenly hardly anything left of the intended local market.

Aided by the collapse of the local currency during the crisis, the manufacturers turned their output into the export market and within five years, Thailand had become the world's second-largest producer, after the US, of light pick-up trucks.

But in 2003, long before the oil price surge caused US makers to regret their over-commitment to pick-ups and sports utility vehicles, the Thaksin Shinawatra government decided the Thai industry needed to diversify and chose as a new focus the emerging Asian mass market for thrifty, clean, small passenger vehicles.

The eco-car project was born, putting Thailand well ahead of Australia.

Edited November 16, 2008 by sylviex

[Loaded]

Actually I disagree with you. If there is a protest, especially in form of meeting with relevant Tesabahn figures, I think that some farang butts on the chairs would in fact make some people sit up and take notice. Talking ones would be even better.

IMO the lovely lady mayor will sympathetically listen to all the concerned foreigners who obviously care about the city they have chosen to live in. She will also promise to do her best to stop this outrageous plan. After all, her election platform was to make Chiang Mai cleaner and less polluted, but I would love to be there when somebody points out it's HER signature that approved the plans back in August. Many of us have been here long enough to know exactly what is happening.

[femi fan]

However, I feel that I also need to point out that your statement that killing trees is more horrifying to you than "killing hundreds of humans", makes you sound like a tree-hugging lunatic and does not help to draw sympathy to your cause.

Well, if people don't read what i write properly then maybe any cause i have will be destined to failure. What you ascribe to me is not what i wrote. I was talking about a specific set of trees that number in the hundreds and line a road for several kms and have been alive for a very long time.

Many humans place their species at the top of the pile of evolution, the VIPs of life if you like, and of course if anybody decides human lives are worth more than any other kind of life, then me defending trees is going to look somewhat silly. But what you might like to remind yourself of is that without trees, there'd be ho human life anyway. Trees sustain life for generations upon generations of humans and all kinds of animals. Therefore killing these trees i maintain is worse than killing an equal number of people. Neither is necessary of course.

[Thaihog]

There is a large plot of land being cleared opposite the Amari hotel at the rincome intersection, is this something to do with widening the road?

[cmsally]

Actually I disagree with you. If there is a protest, especially in form of meeting with relevant Tesabahn figures, I think that some farang butts on the chairs would in fact make some people sit up and take notice. Talking ones would be even better.

IMO the lovely lady mayor will sympathetically listen to all the concerned foreigners who obviously care about the city they have chosen to live in. She will also promise to do her best to stop this outrageous plan. After all, her election platform was to make Chiang Mai cleaner and less polluted, but I would love to be there when somebody points out it's HER signature that approved the plans back in August. Many of us have been here long enough to know exactly what is happening.

I hereby volunteer to be the one that points it out to her.

[Ulysses G.]

These trees have spent maybe 200 years growing to their magnificent spectacle, and the thought of humans beings proposing to cut them down boggles my mind... It seems more horrifying to me than the murder of hundreds of people.

This is what you wrote and your "explanation" does not change much of anything. I don't think that you mean to be so controversial, but most people will not agree that killing trees - no matter how old they are - is anywhere in the same realm as killing human beings.

Revolution (by the Beatles)

You say you want a revolution

Well, you know

We all want to change the world

You tell me that it's evolution

Well, you know

We all want to change the world

But when you talk about destruction

Don't you know that you can count me out

Don't you know it's gonna be all right

all right, all right

You say you got a real solution

Well, you know

We'd all love to see the plan

You ask me for a contribution

Well, you know

We're doing what we can

But when you want money

for people with minds that hate

All I can tell is brother you have to wait

Don't you know it's gonna be all right

all right, all right

Ah

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah...

You say you'll change the constitution

Well, you know

We all want to change your head

You tell me it's the institution

Well, you know

You better free your mind instead

But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao

You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow

Don't you know it's gonna be all right

all right, all right

all right, all right, all right

all right, all right, all right

Edited November 16, 2008 by Ulysses G.