Will Thailand Ever Make Any Progress On Anything

[sabaijai]

Moving to General Topics.

[GuestHouse]

While I agree with you to a point how does that relate to western countries actively encouraging immigrants from less developed nations to do work their own nationals will not do? This covers a broad spectrum from the Filippinos without which the UK National Health Service would collapse to Mexican, and others, legal immigrants working in occupations in the USA no American would do. Virtually every nation on Earth that considers itself developed or developing exploits those who are less well off financially be it via legal immigrant status or by turning a blind eye to the illegals.

And you could find no better example than Thailand.

------

I think though that we need to consider not so much the definition of Progress as where progress is achieved.

Thailand has put in place a public health system, flawed as it is, this is a huge step forward for very many Thais - Progress indeed.

Thailand's response to the spread of AIDs has also been right up their with some of the best responses, certainly in terms of where Thailand is economically the Thai response to AIDs has been extremely proactive. The ability of the Thais to seperate health and morals on this issue have been progressive by any standards.

Thailand is making strides in the improvement of women's rights (not that this will please many) and Thailand has maintained substantial economic growth which benefits a growing number of its citizens.

Not perhaps progress in the areas where an expat looking for a cheaper version of home will be wanting to see progress, but in terms of where Thailand is economically I think Thailand does remarkably well.

(Shouldn't Maigo be up defending Thailand on this or is he taking one of his inexplicable posting breaks?!).

[Richb2004v2]

You may never forget that Thailand is still a feudal society, mixed with Confucianism and Buddhism.

Ad on this the root learning education system who make it impossible for students to think for themselves. Also the incestuous political cast who only think about their own interests is a great handicap. In every western country, political parties try to find new young politicians staff and prepare them to take over from them. Also this is not happening in Thailand, where the real power is in the hands of the military who have such economic and political power who is unthinkable in any democracy.

A Thai always confirm himself with his surrounding, he never show any sign of individualism. Just look to the cars , 95 % of all the cars are black or grey. When I drive around the country I always surprised that all the houses look almost the same. Sometimes I think that there is only one architect in Thailand. The new build shops all over Thailand look exactly the same.

My wife who stay 35 years abroad feel always suffocated when she is in Thailand, simply because she can't speak freely as she get used to it in Europe. Because an open conversation is just impossible in Thailand, you must always be cautious not to offend people, and of the many taboos in society, even with her on sisters, brothers and children she can not have an open minded conversation.

Thai people are not learned to think for themselves, and they feel comfortable to do so, because its easy and you never have doubts.

That's why the changes in Thailand will be slow in fact very slow. My grandsons who are University students and all others of that age in my Thai family think exactly like their grand grand parents. And the few who are not, feel frustrated because they are not allowed to express their ideas. One of them studied a few years abroad, and he know the difference. He said once he ask the professor the fatal question WHY YOU THINK ITS MEANING THIS, WHY IT CAN NOT MEANING THAT, (in an lecture about an modern sculpture). The answer was staggering, BECAUSE THE TEXT BOOK SAY IT. He never asked a question again. My Grandson study political science. I asked him what he thought about the Iraq war and Bush. His answer: we don't learn about it in University so I have no opinion about it.

The same answer I get from my other grandson who study architecture, when I was asking about his idea about a building problem. And those are really no exemptions as I found out in my many talks with young people all over Thailand. I only listen, never give comments about it because its will only make them feel uncomfortable(I follow the Thai mentality when I'm here)

Its seems that the only goal of University students is getting their paper and not really interested in real learning and find out new solutions.

We as farangs have not a real idea how introvert Thai people really are, because that's how you have to be if you like to survive in this kind of society.

How Many of you ever had an meaningful open minded conversation with different point of view and given arguments by both sides. And I don't mean about Football, cars or your Mia Noi.

That's why we think that Thailand seems to be modernising, but only on the surface but there is no changing in the society since the last 500 years, and that's why they will not make a real progress because deep inside Thai people don't like changes at all. Just look the farmers, they still use the old ways, and are still mostly poor. While in western countries farming became an high tech industry, with farmers who are more and more managers with an university degree.

And the reasons why, I mentioned in my first sentence.

Some people mention how modernised BKK is in the last 30 years. My foot 30 years ago BKK was an nice town to live in. Now is a polluted town with 24 hours traffic jam. Most European capitals make great efforts to keep traffic out and create traffic free shopping zones where its great to stroll. But Thailand decided to create more large roads and junctions, who make the inner city almost unfit to live in;Just look to Chaeng Wattana, 15 years ago a nice lane with trees , now its have almost 24 hours traffic jam, no trees left. Modernising a town is more than building sky scrapers(most of them almost empty) and shopping malls. But its creating an pleasant environment for his inhabitants

They talking about building an nuclear power plant, but the electricity cables are still hanging in open air instead of putting under the ground. That's why the constant power interruption if there is a little bit storm. And than I not mention the way its hanging like leafs in the wind.

They talking about an High Speed train, but they still use an antique narrow-gauge railway with most of the time only one track. Where trains have a speed of 60k.

I have no doubt that some will cal this Thailand bashing, but I care about Thailand and his people that's why I feel sad about the things I see and experience.

A very interesting post from a relevant position. I agree that there seems to be little individuality and a lack of inquiring thought.

[bruceboy]

This has been a very interesting read.

[GuestHouse]

Excuse me taking just a few of the points out of your post, but there is some flawed thinking that deserves being challenged.

You may never forget that Thailand is still a feudal society, mixed with Confucianism and Buddhism.

And it is well not to forget

Ad on this the root learning education system who make it impossible difficult for students to think for themselves. Also the incestuous political cast who only think about their own interests is a great handicap but not one restricted to Thailand. In every western country, political parties try to find new young politicians staff and prepare them to take over from them. That's a gross misrepresentation of how western politics worksAlso this is not happening in Thailand, where the real power is in the hands of the military who have such economic and political power who is unthinkable in any democracy.On that there is no disagreement in this corner

A many Thais always will tend to confirm himself with his surrounding, he never show may not show any sign of individualism to those he does not know well or feel comfortable with. Just look to the cars , 95 % of all the cars available from the very restricted and protected car producersare black or grey while it is clear from the number of Thais who decorate, or 'jazz up' their cars that Thais do like a to express their individualism in the cars they drive.. When I drive around the country I always surprised that all the houses look almost the same. Sometimes I think that there is only one architect in Thailand Then I realize that what I am seeing is a common vanacular which is part of Thai culture and when I look more closely I begin to see there are distinct regional differences, often marked differences between nearby communities. The new build shops all over Thailand look exactly the same. Just like the ready to build plans issued by the government and which come together with a material breakdown, estimated build cost and almost certain guarantee of building approval - Knowing this I am impressed by the pragmatism of Thais in this respect.

My wife who stay 35 years abroad feel always suffocated when she is in Thailand, simply because she can't speak freely as she get used to it in Europe. Because an open conversation is just impossible in Thailand, you must always be cautious not to offend people, and of the many taboos in society, even with her on sisters, brothers and children she can not have an open minded conversation. This is just like many western expats who return home and find that when they try to discuss their life and experiences overseas, friends and family glaze over and stop listening - perhaps this challenge to one's own perceptions is uncomfortable for Thais just as it is for westerners.

Thai people are not learned to think for themselves, and they feel comfortable to do so, because its easy and you never have doubts. Look at the responses to threads here on TV and you can see many non Thais get very uncomfortable with thoughts outside of their usual thinking patterns.........

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

Edited November 16, 2008 by GuestHouse

[wasabi]

People claiming mobile phones, skyscrapers and computers mean Thailand has progressed I think are missing the point. Someone once posted here. "Thailand is stuck in the 18th century with 21st century toys." Yes Multinationals setup shop here and are happy to build air conditioned malls for the Thai's but that doesn't mean Thailand has accomplished anything major in the last few decades, maybe even century. I agree they have a rich and wonderful history and I am glad it hasn't been lost but you can have things like innovation, clean water and air, political stability going hand in hand with tradition. Starbucks, Nokia and Pantip do not mean much to me. Think of the following and tell me honestly if it doesn't make you snicker.

Quality Thai engineering

Thai craftsmanship

Thai Literature

Thai technological breakthrough

I also agree Thailand is not on the lowest rung of 3rd world countries, far from it but I have to say they are still in the third world. Don't forget even South Africa has it's rich elite. Just because some hiso's tool around in Benz's doesn't mean the country as a whole is developing. Take a walk down sukhumvit and look at the state of the infrastructure, all the laborers pushing their carts down the narrow sois, the air quality, Look at the bundles of wires sparking live above your head, rats running around and swaths of land undeveloped since 1997. and tell me Thailand is a player on the world stage. What has Thailand given the world and themselves besides rice in the past few decades? I'm not saying Thailand is not without it's charm but part of that ironically seems to be the ground hog effect of this place never changing.

[Underdog]

Thailand will make progress and will get there but at their own pace. Anybody going to live in Thailand hoping to see western style "progress" at a western rate is in the wrong place. We can, and often do, moan about it but that's the way it is. So feel free to sound off about it, we all do from time to time, but just remember you are no more than a dog howling at the moon. The howling makes you feel better but the moon carries on just the way it always has done.

<deit : btw Thailand will almost crtainly get there but "there" may not be where you wanted it to be>

You should get a job with TAT, they would love your progressive thinking!

[Underdog]

You may never forget that Thailand is still a feudal society, mixed with Confucianism and Buddhism.

Ad on this the root learning education system who make it impossible for students to think for themselves. Also the incestuous political cast who only think about their own interests is a great handicap. In every western country, political parties try to find new young politicians staff and prepare them to take over from them. Also this is not happening in Thailand, where the real power is in the hands of the military who have such economic and political power who is unthinkable in any democracy.

A Thai always confirm himself with his surrounding, he never show any sign of individualism. Just look to the cars , 95 % of all the cars are black or grey. When I drive around the country I always surprised that all the houses look almost the same. Sometimes I think that there is only one architect in Thailand. The new build shops all over Thailand look exactly the same.

My wife who stay 35 years abroad feel always suffocated when she is in Thailand, simply because she can't speak freely as she get used to it in Europe. Because an open conversation is just impossible in Thailand, you must always be cautious not to offend people, and of the many taboos in society, even with her on sisters, brothers and children she can not have an open minded conversation.

Thai people are not learned to think for themselves, and they feel comfortable to do so, because its easy and you never have doubts.

That's why the changes in Thailand will be slow in fact very slow. My grandsons who are University students and all others of that age in my Thai family think exactly like their grand grand parents. And the few who are not, feel frustrated because they are not allowed to express their ideas. One of them studied a few years abroad, and he know the difference. He said once he ask the professor the fatal question WHY YOU THINK ITS MEANING THIS, WHY IT CAN NOT MEANING THAT, (in an lecture about an modern sculpture). The answer was staggering, BECAUSE THE TEXT BOOK SAY IT. He never asked a question again. My Grandson study political science. I asked him what he thought about the Iraq war and Bush. His answer: we don't learn about it in University so I have no opinion about it.

The same answer I get from my other grandson who study architecture, when I was asking about his idea about a building problem. And those are really no exemptions as I found out in my many talks with young people all over Thailand. I only listen, never give comments about it because its will only make them feel uncomfortable(I follow the Thai mentality when I'm here)

Its seems that the only goal of University students is getting their paper and not really interested in real learning and find out new solutions.

We as farangs have not a real idea how introvert Thai people really are, because that's how you have to be if you like to survive in this kind of society.

How Many of you ever had an meaningful open minded conversation with different point of view and given arguments by both sides. And I don't mean about Football, cars or your Mia Noi.

That's why we think that Thailand seems to be modernising, but only on the surface but there is no changing in the society since the last 500 years, and that's why they will not make a real progress because deep inside Thai people don't like changes at all. Just look the farmers, they still use the old ways, and are still mostly poor. While in western countries farming became an high tech industry, with farmers who are more and more managers with an university degree.

And the reasons why, I mentioned in my first sentence.

Some people mention how modernised BKK is in the last 30 years. My foot 30 years ago BKK was an nice town to live in. Now is a polluted town with 24 hours traffic jam. Most European capitals make great efforts to keep traffic out and create traffic free shopping zones where its great to stroll. But Thailand decided to create more large roads and junctions, who make the inner city almost unfit to live in;Just look to Chaeng Wattana, 15 years ago a nice lane with trees , now its have almost 24 hours traffic jam, no trees left. Modernising a town is more than building sky scrapers(most of them almost empty) and shopping malls. But its creating an pleasant environment for his inhabitants

They talking about building an nuclear power plant, but the electricity cables are still hanging in open air instead of putting under the ground. That's why the constant power interruption if there is a little bit storm. And than I not mention the way its hanging like leafs in the wind.

They talking about an High Speed train, but they still use an antique narrow-gauge railway with most of the time only one track. Where trains have a speed of 60k.

I have no doubt that some will cal this Thailand bashing, but I care about Thailand and his people that's why I feel sad about the things I see and experience.

You pretty well summed it up there, good observation! The place is a joke!

[njpski]

If you want Thailand to "progress", then in which direction?

The western ethos of greed and selfishness has been shown lately to have flaws and the west is not learning

In Australia, the ANZ bank is cutting 3500 jobs because of the financial crisis - not from upper management who are the ones who caused the problems but the people at the coalface. Ah, progress at its best!

Should Thailand "progress" away from the way families stick together or sell the family land to put up impersonal condos?

There are more smiles in LOS than most other countries, Thailand must be doing something right!!

[billaaa777]

Seems a pointless and probably insulting post. It is what it is, by the same token thai people would not be lining up to move to the UK or the US if it was the same as Thailand or the phillipines or laos or v ietnam or peurto rico or any of the other less well developed countries.

My wife is thai and 14 years younger than me, she is intelligent and educated and I do not wiegh 3 times as much as her, she is happy to live anywhere as long as she is with me and I feel the same.

What does this have to do with anything being talked about here? Nothing is the answer! And the only pointless point made here that i have read so far is yours. Does every post at this site have to have one drunk fool making stupid remarks. Can not just one subject be discussed here without somebody insulting somebody!

[yabaaaa]

How do we define progress? Is it merely by shiny skyscrapers, big roads, flash cars etc or do we look deeper into society? Okay most villages now have electricity so they have their televisions, schools can have computers, life can go on more consistantly after sundown. More people have motorised transport so have become a more mobile workforce. But this is judging Thailand's progress through western eyes. How has Thai society adapted to the sudden progress into the 20th century? In my view it hasn't adapted very well at all hence the social problems they are facing now. Progress is far more than steel and concrete, it is about how the society progresses to deal with the new evolving issues it is presented with. Too much too fast is almost worse than too little.

Bangyai, your description of Bangkok 29 years ago brings tears to my eyes and I wish I was there but we cannot freeze frame a society's development just to suit or own vision of utopia (not that I'm suggesting that was the intent of you post). I am currently involved in major infrastructure projects in central Viet Nam. I see beautiful rural villages nestling amongst rice fields, mountains and forests that won't be there ten years time. I would like to preserve them just as they are but a nation has it's right to develope how it pleases.

I agree with what you say. A nation has a right to develop as it pleases and we have to take the rough with the smooth. Material progress is easy to notice but social change is not always obvious. Sadly, when materialism becomes the benchmark of progress then other considerations normally end up in the back seat.

Ye s but is Thailand developing as it pleases or developing for the few at the top as they please? Many Thias i know would welcome and end to the corruption side and many to the sheer stupidity side.

[thaihome]

Excuse me taking just a few of the points out of your post, but there is some flawed thinking that deserves being challenged.

...I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

I would be very surprised if he does get the idea, as with many here, he is just to wrapped up in his own narrow perception of the world to see it with any sort of objectivity.

TH

[Hairy]

In Australia, the ANZ bank is cutting 3500 jobs because of the financial crisis - not from upper management who are the ones who caused the problems but the people at the coalface. Ah, progress at its best!

Why were they mining coal if they were working in a bank?

[kmart]

In the 15 years that I first came to Thailand, the development and change here has actually been quite rapid, albeit unequal, rather like the income disparity. Comparing Thailand to other "third world countries" is a joke though. Has the OP ever been to Africa? ... Thought not.

Corruption here is common, although nowhere near the endemic levels of other neighbouring countries and African nations.

Anyone leaving this place can return to find most things as they left them, and people that remember their names.

[Norrad]

Thailand is always in some form of chaos but they always seem to pull through. Progress happens all the time, just in a very Thai way.

[njpski]

In Australia, the ANZ bank is cutting 3500 jobs because of the financial crisis - not from upper management who are the ones who caused the problems but the people at the coalface. Ah, progress at its best!

Why were they mining coal if they were working in a bank?

"Working at the coalface" is another way of saying working where the real action is or i could have said "working at the sharp end" or "getting your hands dirty"

What I was saying is that the bank is discarding the real workers and retaining the executives whose policies led to the bank's difficulties.

A poster mentions the destruction of the Vietnamese countryside so that Vietnam can "progress" -

With so much progress happening, not just in Vietnam, but also in the rainforests of Brazil and the Phillipines, in China's Three Gorges and other "progressive" investments like Australia's desalination plant - we will soon progress to a barren planet.

Maybe we should go back to a simpler, sustainable lifestyle where family and friends are the measure of wealth, not the size of the plasma screen or the gas-guzzler.

Thailand's agrarian economy needs to be protected, not rejected!

[Dakhar]

i agree with the point of other posters,

1. corruption

2. lack of personal responsibility

3. IMO the patronage system is a big problem , hard to stop it though.

4. education .

5) Horrible infrastructure

Some comments about languages hindering progress.... I have to disagree. In China, there are many different spoken dialects there, Sinagpore, different languages and Dialects, Taiwan, Mandarin, Shandi, Hakanese, Taiwanes, and Japanese all spoken there. I am sure there are many other examples of other parts of the world that share this in common.

Directly to the topic, will Thailand ever progress.... Of course.... but no where near the pace of the rest of the world. In my field of work, Thailand is about 40-60 years behind western standards.

[Pakboong]

Change merely requires effort, while progress requires both effort and wisdom.

[njpski]

Change merely requires effort, while progress requires both effort and wisdom.

Superb! Too often, there is change, but not true progress - the use of wisdom and foresight means less recriminations when change is looked at with the benefit(?) of hindsight.

[GuestHouse]

It is evident that Thailand has created a society that many here cannot stand to be away from, and amonth those a significant number are in Thailand to escape progress back in their home country.

[clausewitz]

stuck in a 3rd world or african country status The airport is joke, look likes it never got finished.

Jeez if you think Suvarnabhum is a joke I'd hate to hear your reflections on Auckland International, New Zealand. (Home country)

I first came to thailand in 1985 - the progress since then has been beyond anything I could have imagined, but I guess everyone sees it differently.

[Scott]

Progress has to do with a whole variety of things, not just buildings. The fact that many innovations and designs are copied can hardly be attributed to progress.

How much progress has been made in the field of education?

How many inventions and innovations are attributed to Thailand?

How many scientific discoveries have been made?

Then there is the culture and society.

What innovative approaches to caring for it's people has the country made? (Including the people in the South and the Hilltribe folks).

I have no particular problem with the country and enjoy my stay here and as GH mentioned, part of it may be to avoid the progress at home, but progress--very little.

[Maigo6]

Will Thailand ever progress ?

Of course it will, it's just that it may not be progressing the way that benefits you.

I'm quite sure that if government laws were changed that allowed many of the Farangs in Thailand to own land in their own name, they would applaud Thailand as becoming more progressive, likewise if Thailand done away with Visa restrictions and allowed Farangs free reign in the Kingdom Thailand would be applauded for progress by many Farangs. ( I wouldn't be applauding )

Of course only Farangs that would benefit from this would feel this way, the poor Thai would still be poor, the rich Thai would still be rich, but many Farangs would feel Thailand has progressed, cos they benefit.

Basically, people are out for what they can get, and those in Thailand are no different. Thaksin is slated by many Farang here on this board, yet when he was in power and if he had made it possible for Farang to own land in their names, I wonder how many would have felt different ?

1st world countries come with 1st world prices.

Fancy living in one room in Tokyo for 60,000 Baht a month, 360 Baht a beer in a pub, girl for the night 50,000 + Baht, 250 Baht in the taxi before he even drives away, crowds that have to be seen and experienced to be believed, go for it, UK citizens get a 90 Day Visa on arrival that isn't difficult to extend and if you marry a Japanese woman, you will be able to stay in Japan after a period of time with no hassles.

So why isn't there a mass exodus of Farang from Thailand to such places ?

You can't have it all ways folks, I guess that's why the super rich and famous don't live in 3rd world countries, they choose 1st world places cos they can afford all the benefits that place has to offer, the majority of Farang in Thailand ain't in the same position, so we stay here.

If Thailand became like HK, Singapore, Japan, many of those that are here now would have to leave for economic reasons, and the tourism sector would be decimated, so be careful what you wish for folks, it may just happen.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Maigo6

[Maigo6]

Progress has to do with a whole variety of things, not just buildings. The fact that many innovations and designs are copied can hardly be attributed to progress.

How much progress has been made in the field of education?

How many inventions and innovations are attributed to Thailand?

How many scientific discoveries have been made?

I have no particular problem with the country and enjoy my stay here

What have you done to improve the education of Thai people ?

How many inventions and inovations are attributed to you ?

Made any scientific discoveries lately ?

That's good....

[PeaceBlondie]

By any reasonable standard, Thailand has progressed remarkably for several decades, both materially and even in education. However, compared to the breakneck speed at which the entire cosmos is changing, Thailand falls further behind. Part of this is due to the place from which it started. I think in the foreseeable future, it will remain much less 'advanced' than the fully developed countries, and will be overtaken by some of its neighbors. And Thai culture won't care. And that is for the Thais to decide. Of course, only the decision makers decide.

Lovely country, but I would hate for my last four kids to have dropped out of ninth grade in Thailand with typical Thai skills. And I doubt my first two kids who went on to earn masters' degrees in their fields would fare as well here.

[Scott]

Maigo: I am not a country and this forum isn't about me.

[Dakhar]

Progress has to do with a whole variety of things, not just buildings. The fact that many innovations and designs are copied can hardly be attributed to progress.

How much progress has been made in the field of education?

How many inventions and innovations are attributed to Thailand?

How many scientific discoveries have been made?

I have no particular problem with the country and enjoy my stay here

What have you done to improve the education of Thai people ?

How many inventions and inovations are attributed to you ?

Made any scientific discoveries lately ?

That's good....

The topic is THAILAND as a country, as a collection not as an individual. So if would like to point the mirror at other areas of the world to compare, my advice is, as you said "be careful."

I will be the first to agree with you though, if Thailand was not a joke, most of us could not aford to live here, and you are right, we can not have it both ways. "Progression" comes at a cost, and in a lot of progressive places those costs are too much for even those born there.

[Plus]

breakneck speed at which the entire cosmos is changing

Is it? Where? In the West?

In 3rd world countries that are catching up with Thailand?

[dannyman]

Hey scott! I bet you ! Thailand has made more progress in the last 25 year's, more so where you came from. Just a HUNCH,CHOK-DEE !

[Dakhar]

breakneck speed at which the entire cosmos is changing

Is it? Where? In the West?

In 3rd world countries that are catching up with Thailand?

Other than Red Bull (and this is questionable) I can not think of another brand that has world wide recognition. But I can from other Asian nation such as... Acer/GIANT (Taiwan) Samsung/LG (South Korea) & I am sure there are more examples.