Bangkok Post Wine Writer Whines About Wine!

[Jingthing]

It is not so often when you read such strong words in the local press:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/141108_Realtime...2008_real94.php

Thailand ranks No. 4 after China, Japan and India. Despite unfair high local taxes wine is becoming an important part of the country's economic development. The members of the TWA employ close to 1,200 people, add value to the soil, and by exporting about half of its production, contributes to the reduction of the deficit of the wine balance of payment by reducing the need for imported wines. Wine regions are also attracting the kind of tourism we need.

The moderate consumption of wine is good for your health and very few wine lovers, if any, drink to get drunk.

With all these qualities you would expect the authorities to encourage the wine industry. Amazing Thailand.

Isn't it a shame we can't buy Thai wines in Thailand without being subject to tax rates that would have made the Boston Tea Party blush?

Edited November 16, 2008 by Jingthing

[bkkjames]

It is not so often when you read such strong words in the local press:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/141108_Realtime...2008_real94.php

Thailand ranks No. 4 after China, Japan and India. Despite unfair high local taxes wine is becoming an important part of the country's economic development. The members of the TWA employ close to 1,200 people, add value to the soil, and by exporting about half of its production, contributes to the reduction of the deficit of the wine balance of payment by reducing the need for imported wines. Wine regions are also attracting the kind of tourism we need.

The moderate consumption of wine is good for your health and very few wine lovers, if any, drink to get drunk.

With all these qualities you would expect the authorities to encourage the wine industry. Amazing Thailand.

Isn't it a shame we can't buy Thai wines in Thailand without being subject to tax rates that would have made the Boston Tea Party blush?

It's a bit like paying less for a bad meal, still wouldn't want it.

[Sarge]

it's all a bit of joke really but it's interesting to read that all those Asian countries are producing it using local grapes instead of proper European ones. I'm curious to have a look at the Indian Omar Khayyam, from Chateau Indage, just 4 a laff but hey who knows, maybe they may develop it into a half decent drinking grape juice, in a century or two. They are going about it in different way from the new world producers (us, aus, nz et al), where wine industry was kick started by European immigrants using imported grapes and techniques learnt in their original countries.

For info value here a map of Thai wineries:

if I have time, I'm going to take a look at Chateau Des Brumes, not terribly from my family home location

[Jingthing]

I wasn't suggesting Thailand is a great wine country. However, the government here isn't doing the local wine industry any favors to help them grow, and that's a crying shame.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Jingthing

[bkkjames]

I wasn't suggesting Thailand is a great wine country. However, the government here isn't doing the local wine industry any favors to help them grow, and that's a crying shame.

What about the 1500% duty on imports to protect this so-called industry?

Even the locals won't drink local wine.

[Jingthing]

I wasn't suggesting Thailand is a great wine country. However, the government here isn't doing the local wine industry any favors to help them grow, and that's a crying shame.

What about the 1500% duty on imports to protect this so-called industry?

Even the locals won't drink local wine.

That is the point. The local wines are ALSO heavily taxed. If they slashed that tax, more people would have incentive to give the local wines a chance, and if you believe even a little bit in free markets, it would give the local wineries incentive to create better products as the sales potential would be huge if they deliver a good product at a good price.

[bkkjames]

I wasn't suggesting Thailand is a great wine country. However, the government here isn't doing the local wine industry any favors to help them grow, and that's a crying shame.

What about the 1500% duty on imports to protect this so-called industry?

Even the locals won't drink local wine.

That is the point. The local wines are ALSO heavily taxed. If they slashed that tax, more people would have incentive to give the local wines a chance, and if you believe even a little bit in free markets, it would give the local wineries incentive to create better products as the sales potential would be huge if they deliver a good product at a good price.

The problem here is not the price of Thai wine, it's the inability to produce quality. Thai wine is generally 1/3 to 1/4 of the price of an average import. Needless to say, if they could improve the quality to an acceptable level, they could charge 60-70 percent of imports - make a tidy profit in the process. But shi*tty wine at cheap or expensive price will never be successful.

Kinda like the cheese in this country.

[Jingthing]

OK. let me put this another way.

Personally I haven't even tried the Thai wines. They aren't any cheaper than imported wines and if I have to pay 500 B for a bottle of anything that is even remotely drinkable, I am not going to buy Thai. The wine market in the world is MOSTLY not consisting of wine snobs who need to drink a rare bordeaux every night. The bulk of the market is people who like some wine with their meal, something at least drinkable. Better is better, but for everyday, it doesn't need to be. Have the Thai wine industry deliver a DRINKABLE bottle of wine in Thailand for 150 B or 100 B and you would see a massive expansion of the market. Signed, a proud NON wine snob and I did work in the Napa Valley California wine industry for a few years as well.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

I ain't no fine wine con-a-sewer, having limited my imbibing to Spy wine, red, 7%, which I suppose is no sparkling burgandy. The writer for the Bangkok Post is a wine drinker who writes to support the local wine industry, to a degree. He does not give the tax rates we are bandying about here. It appears, at any rate, that the local industry is in its infancy, and we know a little bit about Thai infants. I had to drink some lamyai wine once at school, and it was not yummy.

[samuibeachcomber]

I wasn't suggesting Thailand is a great wine country. However, the government here isn't doing the local wine industry any favors to help them grow, and that's a crying shame.

I saw a programme on the australian network about the thai wine industry and it was interesting.Maybe in a few years the wines made here will be really good,not necesarily cheaper.Many thai's drink wine especially reds.Many areas of thailand are perfect for growing grapes,and even if they will be different to the wines we're used to drinking they may still be very good.

[Jingthing]

I am under the impression that Thai wines are taxed the SAME as imported wines (which is absurd!) but I don't know the details about that, and I do know at least Australia gets a small break on duty tax. So if this is true, if you removed the duty tax on domestic wines, their cost in Thailand would be radically reduced. I have read there are some decent drinkable Thai wines in the 500 - 700 B range, remove the duty, and they could be sold for maybe 150? Come on, of course, that would mean a massive expansion of domestic demand from expats alone.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Jingthing

[bkkjames]

OK. let me put this another way.

Personally I haven't even tried the Thai wines. They aren't any cheaper than imported wines and if I have to pay 500 B for a bottle of anything that is even remotely drinkable, I am not going to buy Thai. The wine market in the world is MOSTLY not consisting of wine snobs who need to drink a rare bordeaux every night. The bulk of the market is people who like some wine with their meal, something at least drinkable. Better is better, but for everyday, it doesn't need to be. Have the Thai wine industry deliver a DRINKABLE bottle of wine in Thailand for 150 B or 100 B and you would see a massive expansion of the market. Signed, a proud NON wine snob and I did work in the Napa Valley California wine industry for a few years as well.

Do you mean to tell me that everyone will throw away their lao cow and leo beer for 100 baht bottles of Thai vinegar?

Try some local wine, then comment mate. It's not in it's infancy, it's been here for years and still sucks. I wouldn't drink it if it were free, and unlike you, I didn't work in Napa Valley. I don't drink 5000 Baht bottles of wine either. I am willing to support local companies and entities but I am not gonna reward crap because the owner's of the estate won't invest in methods, technologies and know how to bring their goods to world standards.

If you ever wonder why their is so much illegal booze in this country, take a drive to the cambodian border. Artificially raising the price of imported wine does not protect the local industry, it only makes people go underground and with it the taxes.

Once the grape (in this case foreign) has been let out of the bottle, it's hard to get it back in.

Thais make many good things, but wine IMO is not one of them, neither is cheese.

[samuibeachcomber]

OK. let me put this another way.

Personally I haven't even tried the Thai wines. They aren't any cheaper than imported wines and if I have to pay 500 B for a bottle of anything that is even remotely drinkable, I am not going to buy Thai. The wine market in the world is MOSTLY not consisting of wine snobs who need to drink a rare bordeaux every night. The bulk of the market is people who like some wine with their meal, something at least drinkable. Better is better, but for everyday, it doesn't need to be. Have the Thai wine industry deliver a DRINKABLE bottle of wine in Thailand for 150 B or 100 B and you would see a massive expansion of the market. Signed, a proud NON wine snob and I did work in the Napa Valley California wine industry for a few years as well.

Do you mean to tell me that everyone will throw away their lao cow and leo beer for 100 baht bottles of Thai vinegar?

Try some local wine, then comment mate. It's not in it's infancy, it's been here for years and still sucks. I wouldn't drink it if it were free, and unlike you, I didn't work in Napa Valley. I don't drink 5000 Baht bottles of wine either. I am willing to support local companies and entities but I am not gonna reward crap because the owner's of the estate won't invest in methods, technologies and know how to bring their goods to world standards.

If you ever wonder why their is so much illegal booze in this country, take a drive to the cambodian border. Artificially raising the price of imported wine does not protect the local industry, it only makes people go underground and with it the taxes.

Once the grape (in this case foreign) has been let out of the bottle, it's hard to get it back in.

Thais make many good things, but wine IMO is not one of them, neither is cheese.

no but in the case of wine it might be good in the future,many thai owners are going to australia to learn the trade and many wine growers overseas are apparently coming here to advise.Like anything it takes time and the thai wine growers have to learn but they need encouragement from the thai authorities and thats probably the hardest part.

[bkkjames]

OK. let me put this another way.

Personally I haven't even tried the Thai wines. They aren't any cheaper than imported wines and if I have to pay 500 B for a bottle of anything that is even remotely drinkable, I am not going to buy Thai. The wine market in the world is MOSTLY not consisting of wine snobs who need to drink a rare bordeaux every night. The bulk of the market is people who like some wine with their meal, something at least drinkable. Better is better, but for everyday, it doesn't need to be. Have the Thai wine industry deliver a DRINKABLE bottle of wine in Thailand for 150 B or 100 B and you would see a massive expansion of the market. Signed, a proud NON wine snob and I did work in the Napa Valley California wine industry for a few years as well.

Do you mean to tell me that everyone will throw away their lao cow and leo beer for 100 baht bottles of Thai vinegar?

Try some local wine, then comment mate. It's not in it's infancy, it's been here for years and still sucks. I wouldn't drink it if it were free, and unlike you, I didn't work in Napa Valley. I don't drink 5000 Baht bottles of wine either. I am willing to support local companies and entities but I am not gonna reward crap because the owner's of the estate won't invest in methods, technologies and know how to bring their goods to world standards.

If you ever wonder why their is so much illegal booze in this country, take a drive to the cambodian border. Artificially raising the price of imported wine does not protect the local industry, it only makes people go underground and with it the taxes.

Once the grape (in this case foreign) has been let out of the bottle, it's hard to get it back in.

Thais make many good things, but wine IMO is not one of them, neither is cheese.

no but in the case of wine it might be good in the future,many thai owners are going to australia to learn the trade and many wine growers overseas are apparently coming here to advise.Like anything it takes time and the thai wine growers have to learn but they need encouragement from the thai authorities and thats probably the hardest part.

Perhaps it has something to do with soil and perhaps that little old thing call "the climate"? I am no expert but off the top of my head, I can't think of any really good wine growing countries / regions that are located in the tropics.

[Jingthing]

Perhaps it has something to do with soil and perhaps that little old thing call "the climate"? I am no expert but off the top of my head, I can't think of any really good wine growing countries / regions that are located in the tropics

There are some cooler areas in Northern Thailand.

No, Thailand will never be a wine drinking culture, but with a base of elite Thais, expats, and tourists wanting wine with their western meals, there is a growth market potential. I find it hard to believe that it isn't possible to produce drinkable wine here (reviews say they already exist but if you say no, well that is your opinion). There is also of course the export market to serve Thai wines with Thai foods at elite Thai restaurants abroad. I know of Thai restaurants in the US where the food alone will run you 2000B per person, so I am sure they sell or would sell Thai wines if they were good enough.

they need encouragement from the thai authorities and thats probably the hardest part.

The high tax on Thai wine IN Thailand is the OPPOSITE of encouragement. Its a wonder they have done as well as they have with this elephant standing on their head.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Sheryl
civility

[samuibeachcomber]

OK. let me put this another way.

Personally I haven't even tried the Thai wines. They aren't any cheaper than imported wines and if I have to pay 500 B for a bottle of anything that is even remotely drinkable, I am not going to buy Thai. The wine market in the world is MOSTLY not consisting of wine snobs who need to drink a rare bordeaux every night. The bulk of the market is people who like some wine with their meal, something at least drinkable. Better is better, but for everyday, it doesn't need to be. Have the Thai wine industry deliver a DRINKABLE bottle of wine in Thailand for 150 B or 100 B and you would see a massive expansion of the market. Signed, a proud NON wine snob and I did work in the Napa Valley California wine industry for a few years as well.

Do you mean to tell me that everyone will throw away their lao cow and leo beer for 100 baht bottles of Thai vinegar?

Try some local wine, then comment mate. It's not in it's infancy, it's been here for years and still sucks. I wouldn't drink it if it were free, and unlike you, I didn't work in Napa Valley. I don't drink 5000 Baht bottles of wine either. I am willing to support local companies and entities but I am not gonna reward crap because the owner's of the estate won't invest in methods, technologies and know how to bring their goods to world standards.

If you ever wonder why their is so much illegal booze in this country, take a drive to the cambodian border. Artificially raising the price of imported wine does not protect the local industry, it only makes people go underground and with it the taxes.

Once the grape (in this case foreign) has been let out of the bottle, it's hard to get it back in.

Thais make many good things, but wine IMO is not one of them, neither is cheese.

no but in the case of wine it might be good in the future,many thai owners are going to australia to learn the trade and many wine growers overseas are apparently coming here to advise.Like anything it takes time and the thai wine growers have to learn but they need encouragement from the thai authorities and thats probably the hardest part.

Perhaps it has something to do with soil and perhaps that little old thing call "the climate"? I am no expert but off the top of my head, I can't think of any really good wine growing countries / regions that are located in the tropics.

areas that have a higher altitude receive a more clement climate,less humidity,and as long as they get good rains and sun with good soil ..............bingo grapes grow!

[fm2002]

I have to agree with bkkjames. IMO Thailand just doesn't have the proper climate to ever be able to produce wine worthy enough to put in a bottle. Perhaps a box or bulk for export. I grew up 30 minutes from Napa Valley and what makes Napa or any other good growing area is DRY heat at the proper temp to ripen up them grapes before picking. (Can you imagine what a humid rain would do to grapes right before harvest) Also with lots of quality water and dirt. I would agree with Jingthing if they could produce good wine, but I don't see it ever happening. It really is a case whereby the government is protecting a market with unrealistic potential expectations.

Thailand has to be the worse place I know of in the world if your a wine lover. This is why you'll find me every visa run in Vientiane enjoying great wine at duty free prices !

[JohnBKKK]

I will never understand the Thai tax system... there used to be the very expensive imported beer and extremely expensive importet whiskey, rum etc... forcing the poorer Thai's to drink 'lao kau', the locally made schnaps which causes blindness after a few years of consumption and the not so poor to drink Mekhong which may not make you blind, but makes you see pink elefants in the morning. Than came locally produced beer at varying standards .. I still remember the rumours about Siingha and where the formaldehyde came from they used as a preservative and finally along came some decent drinkable stuff like Calrsberg etc..

Now Beer, is still very expensive, even though its produced locally under original Brewery supervision but all of a sudden one can drink 100 Pipers (imported) for about 320.00 B a bottle .. ok. not the best whiskey, but when compared with what's made here, like Mekhong, Sangthip etc... at least you don't see pink elephants in the morning ... and along came "Masterblend" produced in the Phillipines at 215.00 B a bottle which is .. well whatever it is, probably still better than the locally produced stuff ....

All you have to do with whiskey is, to keep the stuff long enough in charred casks for the "charcoal" to filter out most of the impurities OK, this waiting would be against th normal business ideas of the Chinese but why can't they produce a local Vodka, make a good clean alcohol and pass it through charcoal filters which should be perfect for a chinese businessman .. instant profit - etc.. if they can't produce that, which is not dependant on soil conditions, humidity, rain... etc.. how can you expect them to produce a fairly decent wine???

Never mind th wrong soil, grapes and climate .. Chateau Noi ... perish the thought

Edited November 17, 2008 by JohnBKKK

[Sarge]

I have to agree with bkkjames. IMO Thailand just doesn't have the proper climate to ever be able to produce wine worthy enough to put in a bottle. Perhaps a box or bulk for export. I grew up 30 minutes from Napa Valley and what makes Napa or any other good growing area is DRY heat at the proper temp to ripen up them grapes before picking. (Can you imagine what a humid rain would do to grapes right before harvest) Also with lots of quality water and dirt. I would agree with Jingthing if they could produce good wine, but I don't see it ever happening. It really is a case whereby the government is protecting a market with unrealistic potential expectations.

Thailand has to be the worse place I know of in the world if your a wine lover. This is why you'll find me every visa run in Vientiane enjoying great wine at duty free prices !

... and yet that doesn't stop the English attempting to produce drinkable wine; it's a bit like hearing that an 80 year old millionaire has fathered a child. So if the English can have a go at it, then why not the Thais. English wine producers have a favourite joke. 'How do you make a small fortune? Start with a large fortune and then open a vineyard'

[Jingthing]

Back on topic (which was WINE TAXES if you need reminding): does anyone know specifically how the TAX on local Thai wine (which is obviously very high) compares with the tax on Australian imports (which nows gets a slight break) and for example French imports?

Edited November 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[bkkjames]

Back on topic (which was WINE TAXES if you need reminding): does anyone know specifically how the TAX on local Thai wine (which is obviously very high) compares with the tax on Australian imports (which nows gets a slight break) and for example French imports?

If you don't know what the tax on Thai wine is, how can you say it's obviously very high?

In simplier terms JT, look at it this way.

Tax at 50% on local wine x 0 bottles sold equals 0 tax revenue. Lowering the tax to 5% still won't bring in more revenue if nobody buys it.

Thai wine at 50 Baht a bottle is still undrinkable. Wouldn't even use it for cooking. If you dropped a crate of it off at my house I would not accept delivery.

Improve the product first, then set your price accordingly. Do you understand that fine items like good wine / food / watches have a percieved value associated with them?

Remove the Chinese styled business plan from your wine industry and realise that the French, Italians, Spanish whatever have built billion dollar a year wine industries on creating value - not volume+low margin.

[JoeThePoster]

Having tried several different labels of Thai wine, I must say that the best way to enjoy it would be to drink it through a straw and pretend that it's just grape juice gone bad due to storage.

Edited November 18, 2008 by JoeThePoster

[Jingthing]

If you don't know what the tax on Thai wine is, how can you say it's obviously very high?

Read the OP! From an expert. I have heard for many years that Thai wines are dutied the same as imports. I would just like SPECIFIC figures, thats all. Of course, even at 100 baht a bottle, if it is CRAP, it isn't worth 100 baht (though frankly they could still sell a lot of even crap at 100 baht). I specifically proposed that IF the Thai wine industry could be freed from the tax structure here, and IF they could produce a DRINKABLE (not great) wine for under 200 B a bottle, it would be fantastically competitive with imports. Thats all I said.

Despite unfair high local taxes wine is becoming an important part of the country's economic development.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[bkkjames]

If you don't know what the tax on Thai wine is, how can you say it's obviously very high?

Read the OP! From an expert. I have heard for many years that Thai wines are dutied the same as imports. I would just like SPECIFIC figures, thats all. You talk to me like I am an idiot, but you don't bother to read my posts. Of course, even at 100 baht a bottle, if it is CRAP, it isn't worth 100 baht (though frankly they could still sell a lot of even crap at 100 baht). I specifically proposed that IF the Thai wine industry could be freed from the tax structure here, and IF they could produce a DRINKABLE (not great) wine for under 200 B a bottle, it would be fantastically competitive with imports. Thats all I said.

Despite unfair high local taxes wine is becoming an important part of the country's economic development.

While you are removing the tax on wine, make sure you remove call Mr Chang and Singha because I am sure they would like to get their beer taxes reduced in order to compete with imports.

BTW< i don't talk to you like you are an idiot, just hoping you will see the bigger picture. Thai wines are not taxed the same as imports as there no import duties for a product that in not imported. Yes there are taxes but not duties. Now I need a drink

[Jingthing]

Thai wines are not taxed the same as imports as there no import duties for a product that in not imported.

Yes, LOGICALLY. But this is Thailand. The government can do anything it wants. Do you know for a FACT that the tax rate on Thai wine is LOWER than imports? I have heard before there is a kind of "faux duty" on Thai wines and that it is indeed very unfair (as indicated in the OP). It doesn't matter if it is technically an import duty or not, if the net effect is that they have to charge 500 baht for a bottle of bad wine.

While you are removing the tax on wine, make sure you remove call Mr Chang and Singha because I am sure they would like to get their beer taxes reduced in order to compete with imports.

Sorry, this makes no sense. Thai beers are very competitive in Thailand vs. the imports.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[polecat]

Don't have any specific figures, Jingthing, but an earlier poster was right when he said they are taxed about the same as imported wines. It is an absolute disgrace, but what you gonna do?

I'm afraid dearest bkkjames that I am going to have to slap you around the chops for misleading the great TV public! There is great colombard and tempranillo up in Khao Yai. The vineyards up there (PB Valley, Granmonte etc) are breathtakingly beautiful and are staffed by experienced pros. The result is some very good wine.

The downside is, as discussed earlier, the prices are pretty ugly (B700+) and you have to try a few before you find a winner. But they are there. I promise.

In fact I would go so far as to say the PB Valley tempranillo (reserve 2004 if you can get it) is excellent. It ain't cheap (B800+) but if you've got guests over, or are looking for a gift, this is a winner.

At the cheaper end, they do a chenin blanc at just over B400. This ain't my cup of tea, but lots of people love it.

From Granmonte, there's a chenin blanc/colombard which is full of bananas and pineapple and is fantastic, and an unfiltered syrah which is hearty and tough and also good.

For wines around B500, try this column http://www.bangkokpost.com/161108_Brunch/1...2008_brun49.php

[Sarge]

While you are removing the tax on wine, make sure you remove call Mr Chang and Singha because I am sure they would like to get their beer taxes reduced in order to compete with imports.

BTW< i don't talk to you like you are an idiot, just hoping you will see the bigger picture. Thai wines are not taxed the same as imports as there no import duties for a product that in not imported. Yes there are taxes but not duties. Now I need a drink

you make a valid point here, a government can't just lower tax rate for one type of producers (still wines around 11.5% ABV) whilst keeping same tax rate for other industries (spirits 40% ABV & beer 5% ABV). You can imagine the outcry from the latter industry. This would be lunatic economy management.

You hit the spot when you stated earlier wine producers must rise their standards and start making decent drinkable products. They'll still be cheaper than imported wines, no import tax excise duties. How do they go about it, it's open to debate, certainly an administration can't be seen to favour an industry over another with tax breaks.

[bkkjames]

Got this from a website in Chiang Mai, fyi, from 2007....

Even local wineries are not exempt from the clutches of the revenue service. All grape wine - from the motherland or afar - is taxed at a flat rate of 176.5% and an interior tax of 21.2%, with additional - though less hefty - import duties on foreign wines.

[polecat]

Here's an interesting tidbit from the Austrade website. Although it does not detail all the actual import taxes, it does say:

There are relatively high tariffs on imported wines. In addition to import tariffs, imported wines are subject to four different tax systems:

Excise tax – value-based rate at 60 per cent

Municipal tax – 10 per cent of excise tax

Value added tax (VAT) – 7 per cent

Health support project – 2 per cent

read more HERE

[Jingthing]

Got this from a website in Chiang Mai, fyi, from 2007....

Even local wineries are not exempt from the clutches of the revenue service. All grape wine - from the motherland or afar - is taxed at a flat rate of 176.5% and an interior tax of 21.2%, with additional - though less hefty - import duties on foreign wines.

Thanks for that. That would indicate there is no "faux duty" just a very high tax even on Thai wine, pushing 200 percent. That is a much higher tax rate than for spirits and beer, YES?