Sin/suffering Classification

[GENeIsUS]

My studies of Buddhisim tells me that the way to enlightment is through the ending of Suffering.

All Suffering is caused by Sin.

In further study of Sin, many years ago, I ran across what I remember as the Seven Mortal Sins. I'm not sure but I think they first were presented by the ancient Greeks.

To battle your enemy, you must first know him.

1.

2. Envy

3. Greed

4. Gluttony

5. Lust

6. Pride

7 Sloth

My memory is failing due to age and I am not sure of number 1. I think I know, but I would like some support in my guess. Can anybody help me?

I am sorry to say that I have been guilty of all the above but with meditation as well as am ailing body, I am slowly eradicating them all. I do not really expect enlightment but the peace of mind that I enjoy during the process is unimaginatively pleasant.

In any case, if any readers can eliminate any or all seven, I wish them the peace and contenment that it will bring to them.

[Brucenkhamen]

There is no concept of Sin in Buddhism.

Suffering is caused by being born, originally, and is fed by unskillful action which I guess has some similarity to "Sin".

One seeks to avoid unskillful action and cultivate skillful action because one can observe the resulting reduction in suffering, not because one fears punishment which is what the word "Sin" means to me.

[camerata]

I think the way a Buddhist would put it is that suffering is caused by craving (or attachment or desire). The seven deadly sins are quite specific ones, but "craving" is much broader. For example, it includes the craving for rebirth or some kind of immortality.

[bankei]

The Buddha's teaching is that suffering is caused by desire. See the 4 noble truths.

[Groongthep]

My studies of Buddhisim tells me that the way to enlightment is through the ending of Suffering.

All Suffering is caused by Sin.

In further study of Sin, many years ago, I ran across what I remember as the Seven Mortal Sins. I'm not sure but I think they first were presented by the ancient Greeks.

To battle your enemy, you must first know him.

1.

2. Envy

3. Greed

4. Gluttony

5. Lust

6. Pride

7 Sloth

My memory is failing due to age and I am not sure of number 1. I think I know, but I would like some support in my guess. Can anybody help me?

I am sorry to say that I have been guilty of all the above but with meditation as well as am ailing body, I am slowly eradicating them all. I do not really expect enlightment but the peace of mind that I enjoy during the process is unimaginatively pleasant.

In any case, if any readers can eliminate any or all seven, I wish them the peace and contenment that it will bring to them.

The seven sins you refer to (wrath or anger being the one you left out) are the cardinal sins which are Christian concepts referring to lesser sins (as opposed to the more serious mortal sins, like killing and stealing etc.) that can be forgiven through simple repentance or the taking of sacraments. These concepts, do not exist in Buddhism per se but have similarities to the 10 defilements or (kilesa) (กิเลส) which are:

1.) greed (lobha)

2.) hate (dosa)

3.) delusion (moha)

4.) conceit (māna)

5.) wrong views (diṭṭhi)

6.) doubt (vicikicchā)

7.) torpor (thīnaṃ)

8.) restlessness (uddhaccaṃ)

9.) shamelessness (ahirikaṃ)

10.) recklessness (anottappaṃ

They are not the same but I think most people would agree there are similarities.

There is no concept of Sin in Buddhism.

Suffering is caused by being born, originally, and is fed by unskillful action which I guess has some similarity to "Sin".

One seeks to avoid unskillful action and cultivate skillful action because one can observe the resulting reduction in suffering, not because one fears punishment which is what the word "Sin" means to me.

I agree with you Bruce, but it should be mentioned that Buddhists do have a term "baap" (บาป) which is usually translated into English as sin. You are correct in that Buddhism teaches that one should avoid unskilled action and cultivate skillful action, but don't you feel that these concepts ,while not exactly the same, are very similar to the Christian, Islamic and Judaic concepts of avoiding sin to achieve a better chance at heaven or paradise after one's death? Buddhism however, does try to not make the distinction of actions being right or wrong but only being skillful or unskillful. Another difference being that in Buddhism skilled action can reduce suffering in this life as well as the next whereas in the Theistic religions they hold all the rewards for after death. There is a common concept shared in both Buddhism and the Theistic religions in that all of them teach that doing no evil and cultivating good leads to a better life after this one. I personally feel that the Theistic religions ( or more precisely their more strident supporters) are far too authoritarian in trying to tell us just what is good and what is evil. What I feel is so much more appealing about the dharma as contrasted to Theistic religions is that it teaches much more clearly what steps need to be taken to reduce sin (if you accept the use of that term in Buddhism), cultivate wisdom and reduce suffering whereas the Theistic religions rely much more heavily on blind acceptance and faith.

[Brucenkhamen]

I agree with you Bruce, but it should be mentioned that Buddhists do have a term "baap" (บาป) which is usually translated into English as sin.

Actually baap is a Thai word not a Buddhist word.

I understand it comes from the Pali word Pāpa, so I suppose that makes it a Buddhist word too, which according to the Pali dictionary means Evil/Wicked, I haven't heard this word used in any Dhamma talk or scriptural reference that I can recall.

The Pali word that we transalate as unskillful is Akusala. This comes up in dhamma talks all the time, here's a good explanation of it's meaning;

The word akusala often is translated into English as "evil." However, it doesn't mean what most English-speakers usually mean by "evil."

Akusala refers to acts that are karmically unwholesome and that carry the seeds of future suffering. In particular, it refers to the "unwholesome root" or "three poisons," which are greed, hate and delusion. However, anything that is a hindrance to realization of enlightenment, such as laziness or mental agitation, are akusala.

The Thai word for akusala is อกุศล (akuson), my wife tells me they use it more to refer to thinking bad things wheras baap is used more for doing bad things.

You are correct in that Buddhism teaches that one should avoid unskilled action and cultivate skillful action, but don't you feel that these concepts ,while not exactly the same, are very similar to the Christian, Islamic and Judaic concepts of avoiding sin to achieve a better chance at heaven or paradise after one's death?

Sure there are similarities and as you can see from above words change over time, but I feel Sin is a much more loaded term in our culture, it carries ideas of Sinning against some greater being, breaking commandments, something the Buddhist words don't.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Brucenkhamen

[Groongthep]

You are correct Bruce. Baap บาป is a Thai word. What I was getting at is that Thais who are mostly Buddhist tend to translate this word as "sin" (at least in some dictionaries anyway) regardless if it is an accurate translation or not. Your explanation was much better than mine, especially the quote about akusala: "The word akusala often is translated into English as "evil." However, it doesn't mean what most English-speakers usually mean by "evil." Likewise, I don't think baap (or the Pali Papa) holds the same meaning of what most English speakers mean by "sin".

....but I feel Sin is a much more loaded term in our culture, it carries ideas of Sinning against some greater being, breaking commandments

I don't know if everyone would agree that "sin" is such a loaded term in our culture. Sure, some of the religious zealots may take it to mean an offense against God or some other fearsome idea, but I think the people who think of spirituality as a path forward or as a mystery to be figured out more often use the word "sin" to describe an act that is in some way wrong or harmful to others or to oneself without any really onerous overtone, unless of course it is a really serious sin like murder or such.

Speaking of the subtle differences in translations, I think both camerata and bankei were saying the exact same thing in their posts only camerata was using the English term "craving" and bankei using the English term "desire" but both (I think) referring to the same Pali term tanha ( thai term ตัณหา ). I have seen tanha translated into English as both craving and desire. I've also seen it translated as "avarice" and other similar terms.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Groongthep

[sabaijai]

Pali: Pāpa

Pāpa (adj. nt.) [Vedic pāpa, cp. Lat. patior≈E. passion etc.; Gr. ph_ma suffering, evil; talai/pwros suffering evil] 1. (adj.) evil, bad, wicked, sinful A ii.222 sq. (and compar. pāpatara); Sn 57; Dh 119 (opp. bhadra). Other compar -- superl. forms are pāpiṭṭha S v.96; pāpiṭṭhatara Vin ii.5; pāpiyyasika D iii.254. See pāpiya. -- 2. unfertile (of soil) S iv.315. -- 3. (nt.) evil, wrong doing, sin Sn 23, 662; Dh 117 (opp. puñña) 183; Pv i.66; 112; iv.150; DhA ii.11. -- pp. pāpāni Sn 399, 452, 674; Dh 119, 265.

-- iccha having bad wishes or intentions Vin i.97; D iii.246; S i.50; ii.156; A iii.119, 191, 219 sq.; iv.1, 22, 155; v.123 sq.; Sn 133, 280; It 85; Nd2 342; Vism 24 (def.); VbhA 476; -- icchatā evil intention A iv.160, 165; DhA ii.77. -- kamma evil doing, wickedness, sin, crime D iii.182; It 86; Sn 407; Dh 127; Vism 502; VbhA 440 sq.; PvA 11, 25, 32, 51, 84. -- kammanta evil -- doer, villain S i.97. -- kammin id. M i.39 Dh 126. -- kara id. Sn 674. -- karin id. Dh 15, 17. -- dassana sinful view Pv iv.355. -- dhamma wickedness, evil habit Dh 248, 307; Pug 37; DhA iii.4; PvA 98; as adj. at PvA. 58. -- dhammin one of evil character or habits Pv i.117. -- parikkhaya decay or destruction of demerit (opp. puñña˚) Pv ii.615. -- mitta an evil associate, a bad companion (opp. kalyāṇa˚) M i.43, 470; D iii.182. -- mittatā bad company, association with wicked people A i.13 sq., 83; iv.160, 165; D iii.212; Dhs 13, 27; Vbh 359, 369, 371. -- sankappa evil thought Sn 280. -- sīla bad morals Sn 246. -- supina an evil dream (opp. bhaddaka) Vism 312; DhA iii.4.

Pāpaka

Pāpaka (adj.) [fr. pāpa] bad, wicked, wretched, sinful Vin i.8; S i.149, 207; v.418 (p. akusala citta); Sn 127, 215, 664; Dh 66, 78, 211, 242; J i.128; Pv ii.716 (=lāmaka C.); ii.93; Pug 19; Dhs 30, 101; Miln 204 (opp. kalyāṇa); Vism 268 (=lāmaka), 312 (of dreams, opp. bhaddaka). -- f. pāpikā Dh 164, 310; a˚ without sin, innocent, of a young maiden (daharā) Th 2, 370; Vv 314; 326 (so expld by VvA, but ThA explns as faultless, i. e. beautiful).

Source: Pali Text Society

[Brucenkhamen]

I don't know if everyone would agree that "sin" is such a loaded term in our culture. Sure, some of the religious zealots may take it to mean an offense against God or some other fearsome idea

Maybe I've had too much exposure to fundamentalist Christianity but I just can't cope with the word "Sin" being used for what is essentially unskillful or unwise action.

but I think the people who think of spirituality as a path forward or as a mystery to be figured out more often use the word "sin" to describe an act that is in some way wrong or harmful to others or to oneself without any really onerous overtone, unless of course it is a really serious sin like murder or such.

I don't think I've ever heard the word used other than in a theistic breaking Gods commandments type context... until now that is.

[Groongthep]

Maybe I've had too much exposure to fundamentalist Christianity............

Appears so.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Groongthep

[GENeIsUS]

Maybe I've had too much exposure to fundamentalist Christianity............

Appears so.

Thank you Groongthep. Anger was my guess for my missing number 1.

Thank you for all others who contributed to my OP. They were both informative and entertaining. Whether ii is sin, baap, gillet, or whatever, my attempts to reduce them will continue till my death, which is just around the corner. May the enlightened one look over and guide you in the future.

Have a nice day.

[Groongthep]

I don't know if everyone would agree that "sin" is such a loaded term in our culture. Sure, some of the religious zealots may take it to mean an offense against God or some other fearsome idea

Maybe I've had too much exposure to fundamentalist Christianity but I just can't cope with the word "Sin" being used for what is essentially unskillful or unwise action.

but I think the people who think of spirituality as a path forward or as a mystery to be figured out more often use the word "sin" to describe an act that is in some way wrong or harmful to others or to oneself without any really onerous overtone, unless of course it is a really serious sin like murder or such.

I don't think I've ever heard the word used other than in a theistic breaking Gods commandments type context... until now that is.

First of all let me apologize for my previous post. After posting it I realized that it was more abrupt than what I intended. I was going to delete it but the "edit" function was gone before I decided to remove it.

But I was a bit taken aback with your statement that:

Maybe I've had too much exposure to fundamentalist Christianity but I just can't cope with the word "Sin" being used for what is essentially unskillful or unwise action.

I think if you were to ask the average person, regardless of his or her spiritual beliefs the question, "What would more accurately describe the act of unremorsefully killing an innocent human being?" A.) a sin or B.) an unskillful or unwise action? I'd bet that the big majority even those interested in Buddhism would respond A. On the other hand, if you were to tell a sick and aged old woman that she "looked nice today" even though she obviously looked awful (which made your statement a lie) wouldn't it most likely be looked upon as an act of kindness rather than some unholy breaking of God's commandments? Clearly the severity of the action and the intent must be taken into account before making a judgment as to which term best describes the action. Certainly killing another human being would be considered akusala and baap too, but telling a sick old lady that she looked lovely would be neither. In fact, I would consider it an act of meta.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Groongthep

[RakJungTorlae]

Sex is Evil

Evil is Sin

Sin is forgiven

So climb on in!

[Brucenkhamen]

I think if you were to ask the average person, regardless of his or her spiritual beliefs the question, "What would more accurately describe the act of unremorsefully killing an innocent human being?" A.) a sin or B.) an unskillful or unwise action? I'd bet that the big majority even those interested in Buddhism would respond A.

Unskillful and unwise action is a broad brush term, feel free to add more descriptive words where necessary. For killing an innocent human being I'd use the words Murder, criminal, violent, immoral, and depending on the level of pre-meditation perhaps evil, but I wouldn't use the word Sin. No court in the land will pass down a verdict that someone has Sinned.

[Brucenkhamen]

Another thing to note is that akusala (aka unwise or unskillful action) as I understand it isn't intended as a measure of how bad the particular action was but as an indication of the root cause of the action.

Akusala is any action that has greed, hatred, or delusion at it's root, by seeing clearly that root one has the opportunity of avoiding actions that will have negative results.

If one makes it a practice to observe the impulses to do small unskillful or unwise things in your day to day life, hopefully if you ever come home to your wife in bed with another man (for example) rather than end their lives and therefore ruin your own you'll catch the impluse to do that and choose a different response.

I don't think the word Sin carrys the above meaning.

[Groongthep]

Sex is Evil

Evil is Sin

Sin is forgiven

So climb on in!

Weren't these lyrics originally penned by "The Big Baap-er?"

Sorry, admittedly a pretty feeble attempt at humor in hopes of lightening up an otherwise rather heavy conversation.

[RakJungTorlae]

A lame attempt to hurt my feeling as well I must say. What’s wrong? got some skeletons in the closet and wish to get it of your chest? Lets here them

[camerata]

Lets here them

Let's not. Let's stick to the topic at hand.